Warcraft Lore and RPG Discussion

*intersection ffs

>if you want good relations with the Alliance

He founded Orgrimmar after Lordaeron told him he could either leave the continent or get wiped out. He has every reason to honor his friend and very little reason to care what the Alliance has to say about the matter.

Besides, despite calling his city Orgrimmar, Thrall maintained stable relations with Theramore and no one ever called him out on the name. Orgrim certainly was a complex figure, but people saying the city name is poor taste irk me because it implies anything which may offend the Alliance's sensibilities is somehow wrong

>That left only one loa to whisper his names and titles: Ueetay no Mueh'zala, Son of Time and Father of Sleep, Night's Friend. God of Death. His shadow grew and grew and grew, towering above them. The trolls sighed with rapture--and, perhaps, with some relief. Aram tried to see what form the shadow was taking, but the loa remained indistinct. Or rather, his form kept shifting, his shadow melting from one shape into another and another. He was a twelve-foot troll. He was a giant lizard. For a second, he was Captain Malus. Then a creature of burning black flame. Aram scrunched his eyes closed, and by the time he had reopened them the loa--now a floating whale shark--was approaching a brave Murky, who stood his ground.
>The sand whispered, A snack. A snack. This is but a little snack. Yet Mueh'zala will feed tonight...
>Aram had not been able to help Drella, but he'd be blasted if he was going to let this thing eat Murky. Maybe it was the form the loa had taken. Murky had saved Aram from a whale shark's maw. It was a favor he was determined to return. With more effort than it had taken to move the slab of stone upon the crystal shard in the Shimmering Deep, Aram moved his feet, one step, two steps, three--until he stood between Death and the murloc.
>Mueh'zala stopped. He shifted into a new form, a red-rimmed spectre in black, towering over all he surveyed. Aram girded himself for whatever was to come. Out of the corner of his eye, he saw Makasa, Hackle, and even Drella, ready to come to his aid. He felt Murky's hand on his shoulder, gently urging him aside. But Aram was a stone that would not budge. It might not have been bravery, he knew. It quite easily might have been nothing more than paralyzing fear that kept him rooted to the spot. Still, whatever the cause, Aramar Thorne did not stir.
The Sandfury Loa of Death doesn't seem to be Bwonsamdi.

>Ueetay no Mueh'zala swayed back and forth hypnotically before Aram. Trolls and sacrifices held their breath. Finally, the sand whispered, Not yet, Son of Thorne. Not yet. This is not the day. The day comes. It comes. But Mueh'zala will not engage you here or now. Our battle is yet to come, yet to come... But it will come, child. It will come. And if you lose that battle, Mueh'zala feasts on all of Azeroth. All of Azeroth. All of Azeroth. All of Azeroth...
>And Mueh'zala sank from view and was gone. Aram was so stunned, he didn't even see the final loa melt back into the sand. Or notice the torches brighten and the moon shine down. The whispered words, It will come. It will come, echoed in his mind.

Whatever the case is, I'm thinking a category of Loa are definitely not Wild Gods but Death Wraiths of a kind.

>He founded Orgrimmar after Lordaeron told him he could either leave the continent or get wiped out. He has every reason to honor his friend and very little reason to care what the Alliance has to say about the matter.
Considering the entirety of the orcish horde at the time (except any children born after the 2nd War) are all invaders who fought against the humans and destroyed and massacred whatever they found, I don't think it's unfair for Lordaeron to say to the orcs that they are not welcome in their lands.

Would you expect the Warsong Clan to allow the humans to stay in Nagrand if the Alliance created a portal leading there and destroyed numerous orcish settlements, including Highmaul, and then killed whoever they found?

You have a point about honoring a friend, but Orgrim led the Horde to kill and murder innocents, and he led the Horde to steal and take lands from the humans. He may have been honourable in a sense, but he certainly not a "hero". No more than you'd call a human king who leads an army against uncorrupted Draenor orcs to steal the orcish lands to live on a hero.

Hey, who was that one WOW bad guy who was a really patient schemer and treated his minions well? I think he was a devil or something.

arthas?

OK quick challenge:
>name the dumbest moment in Warcraft lore
GO

No, he's...I want to say he was big and red, I'm probably wrong, it's been years. I can't even make him turn up on Google with what I recall.

I don't know where to start.
Kil'jaedan?

"Illidan dindu nuffin!"

> I don't think it's unfair for Lordaeron to say to the orcs that they are not welcome in their lands.

I'm not saying it was totally unjustified, just pointing out the animosity runs deep for both sides. Why should the Horde care what the people who already hate them have to say about their capital city's name? Orgrim was certainly a hero to them, and they honored him as such. Give me a real reason why Thrall needed to take the Alliance's feelings that far into account.

Contrary to what memesters on the story forums say, the Horde does not have a persecution complex.

Day of the Dragon Deathwing was ...Not exactly patient or a merciful boss but he was a pretty great schemer.

Kil'jaeden. He's certainly more patient than most, and he generally did reward his minions as promised. He just punished them a ton too.

I think it's him, thanks!

>I'm not saying it was totally unjustified, just pointing out the animosity runs deep for both sides. Why should the Horde care what the people who already hate them have to say about their capital city's name? Orgrim was certainly a hero to them, and they honored him as such. Give me a real reason why Thrall needed to take the Alliance's feelings that far into account.
He didn't.

But the Horde (Thrall's Horde at least) wants to move away from their past misdeeds, than naming their capital after the guy who led the army that caused the misdeeds is probably not the way to go. It's like saying, "We're not the Ottomon Empire anymore!" and then naming your capital after the leader of the army that killed a bunch of Armenians. Kind of defeats the whole point.

I liked Ner'zhul a lot more than Arthas. Arthas added nothing to the Lich King that he needed.

WoD is retarded but at least it gives you badass shit to interact with and slay. Meanwhile you have a whole book centered around Garrosh being on trial by pandas. And the whole thing is meaningless because the celestials or whatever the fuck would have let him go because ''Life is precious lol''. And Anduin is a cuck who wants the Garrosh dick so bad he frees him anyway making him responsible for both WoD and Legion.

>But the Horde (Thrall's Horde at least) wants to move away from their past misdeeds

The Horde wanted to move away from their legacy of being slave soldiers for a demonic entity, and live in freedom. Naming your city after the guy who literally died to free your people isn't incongruous with that goal.

>because the celestials or whatever the fuck would have let him go because ''Life is precious lol''.
What? No.

The Celestials were going to sentence him to life imprisonment. The trial was entirely a sentencing issue.

Still stupid, just not AS stupid.

>The Horde wanted to move away from their legacy of being slave soldiers for a demonic entity, and live in freedom. Naming your city after the guy who literally died to free your people isn't incongruous with that goal.
True, but naming your national confederation after the demonic slave army kind of is.

>True, but naming your national confederation after the demonic slave army kind of is.

What else would you call it? Besides, you can easily argue Thrall wanted to reclaim the Horde as a title. The issues humans have with orcs runs far deeper than what names they call themselves.

That time that the Twilight's Hammer split Thrall into four and we had to go collect EARTH Thrall, FIRE Thrall, WIND Thrall, WATER Thrall, and HEART Aggra so that, by their power combined, we could be CAPTAIN ORC WEDDING.

>The Horde wanted to move away from their legacy of being slave soldiers for a demonic entity, and live in freedom. Naming your city after the guy who literally died to free your people isn't incongruous with that goal.
The guy literally led the army of demon-blood addicts, and he willingly fought in the armies of the demonic entity too.

Also this guy has a point ()

>What else would you call it?
The Confederacy
The Federation
The Union
The Coalition

Maybe these names are a bit too lengthy, so how about

The Pact
The Throng
The Swarm

>thrall's horde could've instead been themed as an iroquois-like confederation of tribes
>+forsaken and belves for some reason

>Besides, you can easily argue Thrall wanted to reclaim the Horde as a title.
Okay, but why? It's not like the actual meaning of the word is particularly relevant to what he wanted to build. Thrall's Horde wasn't particularly militaristic. And the Horde wasn't some orcish tradition, it was literally only a thing because the demons formed the orcs into it.

It was a bad PR move not just externally, but also internally. Even in Vanilla, we see Thrall struggling to hold his Horde together and working on making it clear to its members that it isn't the old Horde. The Shadow Council was still active, still trying to seize control of the Horde, and a lot of that stuff was built on the idea of continuity between old Horde and new Horde.

The old Horde was a dark time in orcish history, and it's very hard to find a reason for Thrall to want to reclaim it rather than build something new. Hell, the old Horde didn't even have shamans. With all his emphasis on the old ways, you'd think he'd want to recognize the heroes that liberated the orcs from their time as the Horde, but focus on the fact that they were LIBERATED from the Horde.

>What else would you call it?
The Clans. Could also lead to some interesting places for the Forsaken identity, and humorous dialogues when the blood elves joined.

>"Sunstrider Clan? I don't know, it sounds a bit...off. Like we're pretending that we're all royalty."
>"Well, we call ourselves the blood elves, and orcs like blood and thunder, right? The Thunderlord Clan, maybe? Has a certain ring to it."
>"Pretty sure that's a thing already."

What about the Forsaken?

The Goblins?

The Pandas?

>>+forsaken and belves for some reason
Well, at t=0, Forsaken racial identity was basically a big question mark. They weren't who they had been in life, so most of what they had rested wholly on their shared experience of dying, becoming Scourge, and then being freed from Arthas's grasp. Giving them a rough template of "okay guys we'll take you, you're just now formally considered a clan" would have pushed them into an exploration of what that actually meant. Since they already were no longer human, being given this alien structure would have just reinforced the newness of their existence, and could be pretty interesting. Would actually be pretty fun to see an early questline about Forsaken trying to grasp shamanism because "that's what clans do, right?" only for an orc shaman to show up after they fail a few times and let them know that they don't have to be shamans to be a clan, and trying to force it isn't going to be good for them OR the elements.

After a few years, when the blood elves came knocking, the Forsaken "experiment" would presumably be considered successful enough for the Clans to be willing to accept member nations that were not traditionally structured as clans, so long as they were willing to accept the formal designation. Again, some kind of grappling with the structure, and is exactly the kind of conversation I could see happening in Silvermoon.

>Goblins
I'm pretty sure that Gallywix would agree to being formally referred to as a horseradish if he thought it would pay out in the long run. Besides, there's something charming about a nation being referred to as "The Gimmegold Clan, a Subsidiary of the Bilgewater Cartel"

>Pandas
I'll admit that I haven't actually played the Pandaren starting experience, but, by this point, it wouldn't really be that strange to members of the Clans for a new clan to be formed more out of ideology and shared identity than lineal descent.

There must always be a Lich King. The stupid thing is they could easily have had the scenario play out more or less the same but without the retarded logic of leaderless scourge > scourge with leaders.

"Guys, there needs to be someone responsible sat here, or some other scourge leader will sit down here and we'll be right back to square one"

One of the things that struck me about the ending cinematic for Argus was how it was basically exactly the same as "There must always be a Lich King," but ridiculously better-written.

Nah, just point out that even leaderless, the scourge is gonna role everyone. The only reason why we didn’t die was because Arthas was too busy playing his macabre game involving alliance/horde champions following his journey. The scourge is weaker without a Lich King, but still way stronger than red and blue. Bolivar needs to sit in the chair and restrain them because otherwise we’re all fucked.
Same scene, some outcome, it just points out the Leader Scourge > Leaderless scourge > Everything else.

I like this

The blue warchief (High King).

Did you just not read the part you quoted?

The horde the only kind of government the orcs ever had.
What other choice did they have besides trying to emulate it?
Try to create a human/quel'dorei style kingdom?
Give up on the idea of a united orcdom and just go back even further to the pre-horde clan system?
People don't understand how difficult it is to create new systems and institutions out of whole cloth.
It's far easier to revive and reform old institutions.
Why do you think people during the enlightenment were so obsessed with the roman empire?

So he is a hero for freeing his people after willingly subjugating them?

Doesn't sound like a hero to me.

>So he is a hero for freeing his people after willingly subjugating them?
Yes.
Someone who was evil but had a change of heart and gave their life to fix their mistakes is in my book a hero.

In Icecrown there was a quest where you are tasked by the General on your flying fortress to investigate news of a battle at one of the gates.
You get to the site, find a dying Grunt and ask what happened.
The Grunt tells you about how they were on a recon mission when the Alliance started to siege the Scourge gate leading into Icecrown, at which point the Horde attacked the Alliance in a pincer attack, and how the Alliance didn't stand a chance.
He then gives you a quest to kill 8 wounded Alliance soldiers, who are immobile NPCs on the ground with 30% health that you murder.
You then report back to the General on your flying fortress who screams "That is what it means to be Horde!" at being told about how the Alliance and Horde forces have now been completely wiped out, the area is completely overrun with Scourge who still control the Gate, and every single Horde and Alliance soldier that died in this battle are now eternally damned Undead slaves to the Lich King.

Everything related to the absolutely retarded idea that the Alliance and Horde could ever afford to be at open war with each other the constantly-besieged Warcraft universe is stupid, but none of them ever struck me as being so divorced from rational thought as this.

He's not talking about the government.

He's talking about the name. Like it can be the Horde in all but name since most of the common folk don't and won't care too much on how things are run, but will know of the name of their faction and what it represents.

Calling it The Horde makes people remember the first Horde where they were demonic slaves and monsters.

The Representative Republic of Durotar

What'd they call large gatherings of orc clans in WHFB?

>Name gets longer as Quel'thalas, Lordaeron, and Bilgewater join.

Either a war or or a WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGH

It's very convenient that every 2 years when there's a threat to the world there's a shiton of healthy and equipped adult soldiers to died in 5 seconds, meanwhile there's also at least dozens (the amount of players that can be a raid) of people with far more power, who often have resurrection as an ability
The economics of wow only make sense if people can actually be resurrected on a regular basis and resources literally respawn.

>The Union of Nations Which We Dont Really Have a Unifying Name For

>What was Thrall's tax policy?

>The Confederacy of the Representative Republic of Durotar, Dictatorship of Quel'thalas, Kingdom of Lordaeron and Meritocracy of Bilgewater

He does remind me a bit of Skurge from the new Thor movie.

Maybe not a hero to everybody, but I guess I can understand someone seeing him as one.

>With Some Pandas

>Throg my son
>You are blooded now
>You must choose enemy to kill
>Undead force that is existential threat and that cannot be reasoned with
>Or man in blue armor who wants to just live his life

I like how they never bother addressing how Ji and Aya are still somehow allowed to be the leaders of the Horde and Alliance Pandaren factions even though they get married at the end of MoP.

I think it would be Regency of Quel'thalas or still be considered a kingdom.>He does remind me a bit of Skurge from the new Thor movie.
You mean from the original comic that scene was lifted from which had a lot more weight because he'd been a villain for years and years.

>he says, not remembering that Anduin was THIS close to Mind Flaying Garrosh when he brought up Arthas

Poison would have been the coward's way, and beyond that Anduin respects the due process of law. Kairozdormu and Wrathion freed him because Wrathion's poorly-thought-out keikaku was precisely that.

Never read Marvel comics, but neato.

Everything in BC, even though alot of the supid shit was also kinda cool
Void elves and lightborne
Pandaria, broken isles, and kul tiras and zandalar being right in the middle of the frequently traversed ocean, seemingly cloaked so that they can leave to give quests in stranglethorn or whatever but no players or even npcs can access or directly mention it.
Argent dawn being alright with forsaken, even when forsaken are actively genociding lordaeron and making new undead
Cenarian circle being cool with orcs and goblins even as they actively destroy ashenvale
Gnomes, since they're just dwarves but even shorter and even more technology
Nelf capitol not being in hyjal, even though it would give nelf the same access to leveling zones as undead, and makes more sense as an established city site than a very recently made tree in the ocean
Forsaken players dont get bats, and nelves dont get hippogryphs
Dualclass characters not existing. Why does sucking demon cock mean you no longer know mage spells? Why is palladin a totally distinct thing instead of being a warrior who is also a priest?

Ironically got is guilty of this too.
Winter lasting years shouldve made continent nearly extinct generations ago considering their anti cold undead and starvation measures are very lacking.

It kills dramatic stakes and immersion when massive costly battles are the norm and in lore happen with a pretty short amount of time inbetween.

Also, what do orcs eat? They have a city equal to that of stormwind, but the only clear food source they have are pigs.

>Like it can be the Horde in all but name
Is this really true?
Especially when the horde was the only unified government you're people ever had?
When most of your population lived under it?
When the people who led the horde are the ones who gave you the opportunity to make something good out of it?

*trades fur for southern grain*

>Is this really true?
Yes
>Especially when the horde was the only unified government you're people ever had?
I wouldn't call the entity that was the slave of demons something to be celebrated
>When most of your population lived under it?
Most of the orcs, that is. Not so much Tauren and Trolls, nor undead.
>When the people who led the horde are the ones who gave you the opportunity to make something good out of it?
Look at the individuals, not the actual Horde, because the actual Horde's whole, "world domination and demonic servitude, WAAAAGH" is probably not what Thrall is all about.

I know this isn't represented at all in game but it seems to me that the border between durotar and the barrens would be fantastic for agriculture.
Durotar and the eastern slope of the barrens are pretty low lying and the southfury river carries melt water and silt from hyjal and winterspring.
Put in some irrigation and it'd be one of the most agriculturally productive regions in the world I bet.
As for other sources of food the barrens seems to be great for hunting game, the echo Isles could export fresh fruit and fish to orgrimmar and god only knows what the goblins are making.

In terms of lore what are the most likely interracial romances to happen?
I talking things like troll/orc or human/high elf couples.

Orc/ogre seem to be /relatively/ common.

>human/high elf couples.

Has the most representation in the lore

Was relatively common you mean.

Human/Windrunner

>The horde the only kind of government the orcs ever had.
Are you seriously implying that a demon-run army that existed solely to fuck up the world had anything like a sustainable infrastructure to it?

I'm kinda disappointed by how few halfbreeds there are in warcraft.
Are any besides humans/high elves, orcs/ogres and orcs/draenai even mentioned anywhere?
Please for the love of god don't bring up med'an.

Nope.
A government does not imply sustainable infrastructure.
Just look at america if you don't believe me.

In the rpg there are npc Half night elves half human or high elves but they look a bit fucked.
Also Lelior was a nelf and quarter troll with a half troll mother.

Isn't that just a your mother joke?
Besides he doesn't even look any different to any other nelf

>The god of Zandalar's rulers for generations
>Giant fucking talking T-Rex in golden armor
>Gave Trolls Paladin powers
>Keeps Rastakhan alive basically by bullying Bwonsamdi into letting him stay, he's done this for a long time
>Tears through masses of traitorous Zul Trolls while yelling about heresy
>Dies at the end of the zone, and we'd already known this since the very first BfA previews

Rezan was based, why are you so cruel Blizzard?

anything that happened post-mists

i don't even mind the pandas. I still just don't fucking understand why they weren't in an emerald dream expansion

>Winter lasting years shouldve made continent nearly extinct generations ago considering their anti cold undead and starvation measures are very lacking.
In fairness, they pretty much state outright that the War of the Five Kings made everyone go full retard. Normally they're far more focused on making preparations for the winter.

They fell into one of the classic blunders, the most well know is never get involved in a war of attrition with Forsaken, but slightly less well known is, never make the major npc better than the entire rest of the expansion.

It’s ogre/orc, since the Mok’nathal had an actual clan and plenty of in game characters.

wowhead.com/quest=13230/avenge-me

Funniest shit is how it's called, "Avenge me!" when the Horde was the one that started the battle with the Alliance in the first place.

>The Gimmegold Clan, a Subsidiary of the Bilgewater Cartel
I want this

Where's that from?

For WoD specifically, the retcon of Fenris Wolfbrother being oldest brother of Durotan.

Are there any sources on population numbers besides the non-canon rpg books?

New Traveler book.

I really need to find it somewhere to download them. They are the only Warcraft books I am unable to find.

Despite WoD's flaws, Blackhand really was one of the redeeming qualities. I even had myself hoping he and Kargath would return in 6.2 will fully kitted out fel models, but we got Kilrogg instead.
Can't wait to roll a Blackrock Orc in BfA.

Why do the new goats explode when killed? Also if the alliance has faster than light space travel and the ability to attack from orbit, isn't that something of a problem for the horde?

That was literally the logic behind "there must always be a lich king". It was never that the scourge was stronger without a lich king, its that the scourge would rampage without anyone guiding them.

Allahu Naaru

And the last time the goats flew anything they crashed it into a mountain so I think that kinda balances the scales.