Hi Veeky Forums, it's your cousin, /v/. We need your help with a moral question.
Who was in the wrong here, from a moral and ethical standpoint? Are his actions consistent with those of a paladin?
youtu.be/sC_SZToF82U If you don't know the story: >Arthas (prince in line for the throne) and Uther the Lightbringer, his mentor (both paladins) arrive in Stratholme investigating a plague of undeath >the plague turns people into zombies in a couple of hours at absolute maximum >there's no known cure or treatment >Arthas can see who is infected while others can't >the plague is spread via grain; they've tracked a shipment to this city >when they arrive in Stratholme, Arthas realises that nearly everyone is infected >Orders Uther to purge the entire city, living or not >Uther refuses and is stripped of his title and paladin status >Arthas goes on to purge the city in what will later be known as The Culling of Stratholme So. Who was in the wrong? I know this isn't strictly tg material, but you guys handle moral and ethical discussion really well and v has exhausted ourselves talking in circles about this
Benjamin Gomez
>cousin /v/
Vermin detected
Adam Morgan
Uther was in the wrong in hindsight since we find out there's cure for the plague, the undead would have spread and Arthas did the only thing that could minimize the situation.
As for what it's in line for Paladin, depends on the edition.
If it's 5e then it depends on the Oath. Uther strikes me as Oath of Devotion so that'd be definitely out of line for him so he stuck true to his paladins beliefs. Arthas being his apprentice probably took the same Oath in that case he would become an Oathbreaker. Alternatively Arthas could be acting perfectly in line if he's Oath to the Crown or Oath of Vengeance
David Sullivan
Arthas was beyond redemption the moment he grabbed the sword. Everything else is remotely justifiable
Wyatt Sanchez
Even burning his men's ships once his men were in Northrend?
Henry James
Euch... Hello, cousin /v/. How lovely to see you.
Jose Cox
>So. Who was in the wrong Uther. There was no other solution to the Stratholme problem, and the only thing Arthas did wrong is not communicating just how bad the problem was - probably because the dialogue wouldn't be as dramatic.
However, Arthas instantly undercut his correct decision with an idiotic one to invade Northrend all by himself, without even considering how to kill Mal'Ganis. Instead, he should have done something like this >Father, esteemed mages of Kirin'Tor, we have a problem much worse than the orc invasion at our hand. >Demons are involved. Again. >Jaina, a respected mage from Dalaran, will confirm that what I'm saying is true, even though she heavily disagrees with my methods. >I suggest we combine our efforts and defeat this threat.
Chase Williams
Forgot that. Fuck that evil fuck
Jayden Miller
Come now, you know cousin /v/ ain't been right in the head lately
Brody Hall
Burning the ships isn't that bad (they were gonna leave when he was so close( but the part that's really reprehensible is blaming the mercenaries
Eli Price
What he did was Lawful, but not Good
Carter Cruz
>Who was in the wrong here, from a moral and ethical standpoint? Depends on the ethos of the culture. For the society Arthas is a member of, it was morally justified, as Lordaeron puts a moral imperative on the protection of the people as a whole and the uncompromising defense of Azeroth. I don't believe it would be morally justified for all cases though, as there should be an assumption of individual rights being protected individually; steps should have been taken to rescue every person in Stratholme that could've been saved, and an assumption should've existed that all people were savable, until they individually put others in clear and immediate danger (like trying to eat them, for example). This would probably have failed and resulted in worse consequences than the culling, but morally right != utile.
>Are his actions consistent with those of a paladin? There appears to be evidence that the people of Stratholme that actually turned into undead had their souls corrupted by Mal'Ganis. Knowing that Stratholme was already lost, Arthas took steps that resulted in many souls being saved, and a lot fewer undead being created. By generic religious paladin code, I think he's in the clear. On the other hand, Uther was against it, and he founded the Order of the Silver Hand and determined their code, so it was certainly not righteous under that interpretation. Had he explained the situation, perhaps Uther could've helped arrive at a more just course of action.
Jose Martinez
>depends on the culture
Catch up, we're coming on 2018
Jackson Russell
Who cares who was right or wrong? It's Blizzard so someone has to get corrupted. This is the only story they ever tell.
Hudson Peterson
>Catch up, we're coming on 2018 >Current year >Still using 'current year' memes
Carson Baker
They were both right from their points of view but with an overarching view Arthas is right and Uther wrong.
Jayden Ross
>Jaina Then: "This is wrong" >Jaina Now: "Burn it all."
Daniel Torres
Who the fuck cares? This shit is irrelevant now, buried deep under memes and retcons, in a setting that was a kitchensink horror from the get-go. I think it was cool when I was 14, but dude.
Christopher Ward
thought
Adam Anderson
It's been a long while since I played WC3, but why didn't they just quarantine the city?
Joseph Hughes
It basically would have become a undead stronghold since it would have been completely overrun by them.
Ryder Parker
Why couldn't they just revive everyone at an altar/use mass healing magic to null the disease? Actually how the fuck does anyone perma die in the Warcraft Universe
>, but you guys handle moral and ethical discussion really well Oh no we fucking don't. If you want legit ethical discussion Veeky Forums isn't the place to do it.
Aiden Brown
Arthas was inthe wrong because instead of trying to explain shit he immediately went ballistic when uther refused becausehe couldn't possibly know what the fuck was happening. They had the most powerful paladin and one of the greatest mages at their disposal to assess the situation buy arthas literally jumped the gun because he wanted to kill Mal'ganis. Arthas never gave a shit about Stratholme population, in fact his purge was never even effective because the plague of undeath spread anyway and contaminated the entire region.
In hindsight there is nothing else they could do, but Arthas was in the wrong because refused to even consider another course of action that wasn't killing everyone just to spite Mal'ganis
Mason Wright
It becomes an undead stronghold anyway so purging it literally had no use
Wyatt Carter
could you elaborate ?
Kevin Allen
It's not really a meme
Christian Jones
as of Legion she's the latest "corrupted hero" they're setting up to be the boss of the next xpac, advocating dropping bombs on the horde and such
Ian Sanders
It became such because lordaeron fell. I don't think the undesd there now we're the original ones pre-purge. At least not most.
Adam Phillips
Shame. That makes her sane as far as I'm concerned.
Caleb Lee
This. He didn't really gave a shit. Arthas's tale is basically how the thirst for revenge can completely blind and destroy you.
Austin Johnson
>It becomes an undead stronghold anyway so purging it literally had no use
It resulted in the production of the The Lich King on top of that, so for the Undead the purge was one of the best days in their collective history.
Carson Rogers
Arthas' actions were justified. Failure to prevent the conversion of the city would have bolstered the undead ravaging northern and eastern lordaeron. He lacked any knowledge or capability to cure the populace. Purging was the only option.
Given our knowledge in hindsight and as the 'eye of god'/gamer, we can see Uther was in the wrong. He lacked both knowledge of the undead and the situation within the city.
Chase Torres
Arthus was in the wrong. The selfsame act could have been justified, but his reasons and justifaction was terrible. A petty boy looking for revenge.
Bentley Scott
Remember the post Warcraft 3 DLC where you played a half-ogre and Jaina's father wanted to restart the war with the Horde post Archimonde?
With Jaina's help he was stopped and she gives a speech about how he's wrong and shouldn't cling to old hatreds etc.
Now Jaina is redpilled when it comes to the savages.
Liam Morales
>Now Jaina is redpilled when it comes to the savages. how did this came to be ? did they stop giving her vitamine D ?
Angel Fisher
they voted to let the filth into the Kirin Tor
Nolan Turner
>Kirin Tor Really, because her special treehouse club wasn't special anymore ?
Aiden Hernandez
What happened between Jaina and Thrall. Is Thrall still alive? Never played WoW, just Warcraft 3.
Lincoln Stewart
Thrall's alive. He just sucks now. Like Jaina, Sylvanas, Tyrande, and Malfurion. Kael'thas sucked and died. Illidan sucked, died, came back, and continued to suck. Rexxar's still okay whenever he shows up.
Thrall put Grom Hellscream's son Garrosh in charge of the Horde for stupid reasons to go do shaman stuff. Garrosh almost immediately became orc Hitler, blew up Theramore, did a bunch of other evil shit, and had to be ousted before setting off the worst expansion in the game. Jaina lost it for a bit and now she's angry, bitter, and wants to see the Horde dismantled. She and Thrall are pretty much quits at this point.
The key to enjoying WoW is to not get invested in the big over-plot and just appreciate the more personal, intimate quests and zone atmosphere.
Caleb Torres
he doesn't have the sword at this point. He has his original hammer. This is the event that causes him to go to icecrown
Jayden Cox
Arthas hadn't fully explained what he knew about the plague: that simply being infected would cause an individual to die and then rise immediately. He had only just seen that--as far as Uther was aware, undead still needed to be raised by necromancers.
Uther was perfectly justified in balking at such an order without any explanation. Now, Arthas was correct about the threat, and, if he had been willing to actually talk things through with Uther, they might have figured out an actual solution.
If Arthas hadn't chimped out and decided to strip Uther of his title and status just for questioning him, neither one would be in the wrong. As it is, it is his response there that both proves that he isn't ready to be a king and starts his downward spiral.
Austin Martinez
>Hi Veeky Forums, it's your cousin, /v/. No Roman, I don’t want to go bowling.
Evan Morales
at least, its not our estranged co-brother-in-law /pol/
Cooper Mitchell
Just because someone shits on our lawn and screams about niggers through the window whenever he sees we're playing D&D doesn't mean he's related.