So I know that CWoD free form magic system was infamously overpowered when compared to the other race options. Vampires...

So I know that CWoD free form magic system was infamously overpowered when compared to the other race options. Vampires, Werewolves, etc. And very overpowered within the race options, magic vampires. However, I didn't hear about any magical werewolves. Did the werewolves not have access to a free form system or was it simply redundant due to class options?

they aren't "race options", they're entirely separate fucking games. playing a mage in a vampire game is like asking to play a D&D wizard in a Shadows of the Demon Lord game just because they both involve d20s.

They're still compatible with each other. Also, you didn't answer my question. Did the Werewolves have access to a free form magic system?

Uktena and some changing breeds could learn mortal hedge sorcery (which is comparably weak to True Magick and vampire Thaumaturgy); as for access to a "free form magick system" theres a rank 5 gift called Thieving Talons of the Magpie which lets the werewolf temporarily steal powers from foes (including true magick) and wield it in a limited fashion.

The free form magic system for mages is only overpowered if players play mages like spergs milking the system though powergame/muchkin/minmax behavior, which is true for a lot of other splats out there; but that is in no way reflective of the world of darkness setting (i.e you still have mages being defeated by vampires in the First and second Masssa war)

This is true for most splats; devising "characters" (not really) to exploit another's weakness will always break the setting, no matter what race you're playing

It sounds like you're a victim of bad explanations. Thaumaturgy (Magic in Vampire: the Masquerade) isn't freeform and although it's a strong Discipline it's not the most overpowered.

Ah, I see. Thanks!

They get rituals which are sort of less powerful than Thaum. But mostly because 80% of them are entirely based around tribal and sept interactions, and spirits only they deal with.

>It sounds like you're a victim of bad explanations. Thaumaturgy (Magic in Vampire: the Masquerade) isn't freeform and although it's a strong Discipline it's not the most overpowered.
It can be sufficiently flexible; you can learn new rituals without experience cost; you can come up with rituals (albeit weak ones) as quickly as a day and half, perhaps even less; more powerful rituals can be created but they require longer; new Thaumaturgical paths can also be created.

House of Tremere allows for Path ratings of 6 (and perhaps even heigher) for created Thaumaturgical Paths; and at that ratings you can --improvise--greater effects.

It's definitely the most overpowered Discipline if your character has had the time to explore it throughly.

By system definition, Werewolves can do just about anything magic wise, by making a deal with the right spirit to help them.

The common rule of thumb is to not use Mages at all, be it CWoD or CofD. They're evidently the kings of campus both rounds.

It's a good thing they're boring to play.

???
owod compatible? Different rule systems too. nwod, you can theoretically drop them into each others games, no problem. owod? Not so much.

Ah, so kind of like Stormbringer then?

What makes mages so powerful compared to others?

nWoD mages aren't that fabulous, but they aren't much fun. COFD mages mostly get their rep from exceptional successes being able to ignore resistance rolls, and some shielding RAW wonkery that has no official ruling aside from 'dave said so in discord', but no real docos. oWoD mages are iffy - spheres one and two are generally pretty okay, unless you're one of those 'oh lol you can ban paradox' idiots. Sphere level three things start going off the chain.

>has no official ruling aside from 'dave said so in discord', but no real docos.
Except the, you know, RAW rules text of how shielding works.

>and some shielding RAW wonkery

As in, no official ruling outside the book. I expect it'll probably be reworked if we ever get another release.

Why would what the author intended (and has said as much) be reworked when hes still the head of the line?

Thaumaturgy (the vampire wizard thing) wasn't freeform but was broken because it allowed a vampire wizard to straight up hurl fire around without the penalties vampires would have if they used a flamethrower (because vampires have to pass willpower rolls when they see fire usually, while the vampire wizard hurling a fireball around with thaumaturgy wouldn't but everyone else in the room would, plus fire does aggravated damage to vampires so vampire wizards using the path of flames were ridiculous in direct combat for vampires who were explictly gimped in direct combat otherwise).

Human Awakened Mages had a freeform magic system that was really open ended, but was designed with drawbacks in its use that meant high level Mages had more problems using it under certain circumstances so it was swings and roundabouts in terms of "power". in practice a GM who couldn't keep a mage game on the railroad tracks wasn't trying.

There was a magic system in werewolf, but it was powered by finite resources that regenerated slowly with time whereas vampires could just eat someone if they needed more bloodpoints and requires extensive roleplaying to deal with all the spirits and convince them to do the magical effect and they were less impressive in the end.

No matter how many times I ask for one of those daveposts on the topic, I've never actually been supplied with one. So until I do, I have to imagine that it'll be reworked.

You mean the twice you've asked in two threads with less than 20 posters? Real effort there. You even refuse to go on the discord and control f daveb + shielding or oxygen. Go fuck yourself. You were literally told where to find it you lazy piece of shit.

Of all the asinine Daveposts this is the one you're in denial over. That's kind of funny.

Yeah, look, not quite sure what you're talking about, but until you can supply it, my opinion isn't going to magically bend to yours. Cheers.

Right? What a dumbass.

>Denying that you're the shitposter who was shit posting about this exact thing in the last thread.
t. dumbass

"Here are some of the reasons thing is X, and an opinion on the topic."
"your opinion is wrong because the dev said so"
"oh, can you show me please?"
"no"
"Then I think you are wrong"
"no. you are also like 30 people."

here i did it for you, you piece of human trash. This is one of SEVERAL posts where he says the exact same thing. That you can use shielding to protect or separate.

>"Here are some of the reasons thing is X, and an opinion on the topic."
Here is something it doesn't say in RAW
>"your opinion is wrong because the dev said so"
No its wrong because by raw you can shield against phenomenons like oxygen.
>"oh, can you show me please?"
Its literally in the core book
>"no"
people tell you exactly where to find it and what was said dozens of times
>"Then I think you are wrong"
because you are a lazy piece of shit
>"no. you are also like 30 people."
user asking for the same thing and making the exact same claims and typing style of ONE 'previous' user who also refused to look it up and used the exact same arguments.

In conclusion, you are a fucking retard.

>House of Tremere allows for Path ratings of 6
Why are you fucking munchkins so adept at digging up this sort of bullshit? I don't get it, this hasn't been a valid rule since Vampire: the Dark Ages. That's not even 2 versions of VtM ago, that's 2 versions of ANOTHER GAME (Dark Ages Vampire) ago, that rule doesn't apply unless you go back in time to the year 2001 to find a group that still wants to play VtDA. House of Tremere is only meant to matter if your game is taking place in fucking 1197.
It's like bringing back Mortus as a fucking Discipline.

Tremerefag tries his very best to prove that Thaumaturgy is hip enough to hang out with True Magick. Give him some slack.

Don't fret little boy, Vampire Masquerade Revised is from 1998, House of Tremere is from 2000; in House of Tremere there are several connections they make that it ties the content in there directly to Vampire Masquerade Revised, such as Perdo Magica ----devolving-- to Thaumaturgical Countermagic in the future, redirecting the reader to Guide to the Camarilla.

Mage Revised (which most Mage like to use instead of M20) is from 2000

Masters of the Art is from 1999, and Horizon: Stronghold of Hope is from 1996 and you'll still see Magefags wanking these books for archspheres

>It's like bringing back Mortus as a fucking Discipline.
Just because something is old (in the universe-setting) and doesn't actively feature anymore it doesn't detract from the fact it is still a thing that existed in the past and there are vampires that could potentially still have access to it

>Masters of the Art is from 1999, and Horizon: Stronghold of Hope is from 1996 and you'll still see Magefags wanking these books for archspheres
I'm pretty sure both are specifically mentioned in revised tho.

House of Tremere directly references to Blood Magic: Secrets of Thaumaturgy by saying that "Readers interested in the development of Thaumaturgy and other forms of blood magic may wish to consult Blood Magic: Secrets of Thaumaturgy";

Despite this, House of Tremere still goes on to say that thaumaturgical paths created through Rego Magica (a new Path) can reach ratings of 6 and that their wielder may improvise additionally powerful effects; this explictly sets these Rego Magica-paths apart as outliers, from the ones created through other means that cannot reach ratings heigher than 5.

Moreso, it's not like Paths could go to 6 in the past and then this was changed later, rather, normal paths were already locked at 5 by the time House of Tremere was written (this is even said in Blood Sorcery: Secrets of Thaumaturgy, a book House of Tremere itself acknowledges and references to) but despite that at least one way that didn't abide to the normal ruling was introduced in way of Paths created by Rego Magica.

Actually Chimerstry is freeform illusion magic, the other reason beside the entire clan being a terrible mistake for why the Ravnos got nuked.

>House of Tremere allows for Path ratings of 6 (and perhaps even heigher) for created Thaumaturgical Paths; and at that ratings you can --improvise--greater effects.

Yeah but those involve chaining rituals in ways that involve vampiric followers and retainers who also have thaumaturgy and at that point you could just run up on your enemies with those vampire nerds weilding sticks with nails in them and they'd be more immediately threatening.

(but tremere antitribu mass embracing and pulling that shit is why the antitribu got nuked)

>Yeah but those involve chaining rituals in ways that involve vampiric
No, it's not those rituals I'm talking about, it's literally Thaumaturgical --paths-- (like Lure of the Flames) if created through Perdo Magica; at ratings of 6 you can improvise greater effects; which suggests a considerable degree of versality to an otherwise "static" blood magic.

As for rituals (not what I described above), there are some different ones that add versality to other Path powers and rituals like Ritual of Holding (level 6) and Vires Acquirit Eundo (rank 5), these can be chained together for greater effects; you can also chain them with Enfolding the Believers (Level Three) for an arbitrarily high dicepool to any Path power or ritual (only requires mortals that don't even need to know Thaumaturgy).

The Pursuit of Apotheosis (Level Five) can also be used to farm Experience points; every mortal tricked into partaking in the ritual (no limit) has the chance to give you Experience points; if you had high levels of Presence and worked this on some god-forgotten poor african village; even doing it to 1000 mortals would already net you an average of ~300 Experience points:

"Every success gives the player one experience point that can be used to purchase new or improved traits as per normal experience costs. From the character’s perspective, these new Attributes, Abilities, and Disciplines are the result of a momentary glimpse of godhood paid for by the deaths of loyal followers. According to some rumors, a sufficient number of successful sacrifices can also be expended to permanently reduce a vampire’s Generation. The truth of those rumors and the number of successes needed to achieve such a feat are left to the Storyteller’s discretion."

Chaining Pursuit of Apotheosis with Ritual of Holding & Vires Acquirit Eundo would vastly scale the ritual's potency and effect; can't even imagine a realistic result.

The "overpowered" element of Asscension is Correspondence dickery (ie murdering everything from your basement).

CWoD mage was also very incoherent and constantly contradicted itself.

CoD does it better

Sharing a setting doesn't make them compatible.

The RAW rules text of how Shielding works simply says that Shielding spells "usually" give "blanket immunity" to mundane phenomena. Which is pretty funny, because no Shielding spell in the book actually gives blanket immunity. They give conditional, limited immunity based on things like Reach and Potency. Nowhere in the book does it say that you can Shield someone from oxygen to suffocate them.

Mage is tons of fun to play.