How much do minis even cost to make?

So after backing the Batman: Gotham City Chronicles kickstarter I've been wondering how much minis actually cost to make. The guys making the game keep adding more miniatures ever twenty or thirty thousand they make, and it's to the point that it's almost 1 dollar per mini at this point (and each stretch goal they unlock keeps bringing them closer to that). Then there's the fact I once saw the retailers price for a Battletech lance pack (guy was showing it to me to see if it was what I was asking him about). The pack cost him 7 Canadian dollars, which is a price that makes both the distributor and the company that makes them a profit.

So how much do these things actually cost once you have the moulds?

Once you have the molds? Pennies. But making the molds can cost tens of thousands if it's metal or way cheaper if it's silicon but then that mold has a short lifespan

The majority of the cost is in making the master sculpt and initial mould casting. Once those are complete actually casting in plastic is dirt cheap.

Pretty cheap. Most of the costs of minis (and really any part of a board game) aren’t in production, they’re in things like concept art, sculpting, actually making the mounds, writing, marketing, game design, etc etc. There’s a lot of overhead to make essentially a box of cardboard and plastic parts, even if the actual cost to produce that box is cheap.

this
the two-sprue moulds that GW uses are like 135-120k EACH
however they can make sprues for LITERAL pennies
they just pass the cost of the moulds on to the customers

>135-120k EACH
that's honestly more then I thought. I'm guessing it's cheaper for one-piece stuff like with B:GCC and Battletech given the fact one only seems to cost about 20k and the other is made by a company that's broke

its part of the reason most of the new GW kits can be made into multiple different kinds of units
it's cheaper to give people the option of only buying one set and making different units than making one set for each unit

How does Bandai make large complex and fully articulate models with full color and hundreds of tiny pieces and have them cost less then a bunch of minis with parts in the single digits from games workshop.

I can't defend Gw, but if they spend 120k on a mold, and charge 40 for a set of models. We can assume probably a dollar or two cost going back into the cost of making more. SO 39 would be profit. They need to sell 3079 models quickly to make back the cost. I can't defend GW pricing like that but I can see why they do. Plus they know people will buy them

One of the reasons is quality of plastic. The other big reason is market share. The gunpla market is much much bigger and wider with a wider distribution allover the world.

Also they have much more competition from other companies producing the same/similar products.

Lots of reuse. Why sculpt a new body when they have a good generic body. Plus they probably own the tools to do master mold tooling which would reduce cost a lot.

About three fiddy.

My dad has been working in plastics production his entire life

Every single time I show him anything related to wargaming he always has to remark "You know that costs literally a few cents to make, right?"

The only expensive part is the original molds. Once you have those you shit out models at like 2000% markups.

On the one hand that explains why some units that are so niche exist, on the other that doesn't explain why there's still no plastic sisters.

How much you think one of those one-piece moulds for something like a Battletech miniature cost?

It is true that they will charge what they know people will buy, but you also gotta keep in mind GW has been consistently doing new releases every week, with a majroity of those releases being new models, meaning new molds, and the molds have been consitently getting more and more complex, requiring more expensive molds. Combine this with the fact that they do all their production of said molds in the UK where labor is very expensive, compared to china where most model kits are made.

I am not saying they are priced properly or are even underpriced, but I think the perceived 'greed' factor is not the only major factor in the pricing of a GW kit.

FUCK stop using reason and logic! this is a geedubya hate thread

To add to this you have to remember that something like two thirds of their profits went to their shareholders before they placed a cap on dividends.

People can hate on them for not giving us plastic sisters despite the fact they'd make their money back on it very quickly

Bandai-Namco have their fingers in so many pies, that they could sell Gunpla at a loss, and in the long run it would barely bother their profit margins. That said, the price for minis is fucking ridiculous.

>My dad has been working in plastics production his entire life

Ask your dad to explain "economy of scale" to you. If he uses big words, ask him to help you look them up in the dictionary.

As other anons have already posted, molds can easily cost over 100K each. While the plastic injected in that molds costs less than pennies, the TIME the machine(s) and operator(s) require for the set-up and production of a given run costs big money too. Mold shops don't want to bother with "small" orders, that is orders under ~10K units or so. They want to spend a shift setting up the machine, proofing the test pieces, making adjustments, and then running the same job for weeks if not months.

I've a client who molds parts for insulin pumps. They have their own injection molding department which handles both production and prototyping. Prototype runs are sunk costs because not enough pieces are made to pay for the machine time. At pennies per part, a run doesn't being to "earn" until it cracks ~100K pieces and that's with a company 'selling" to it's self.

Small runs, like GW's, are only produced by manufacturers at premium rates because that's the only way to pay for the machine time. Even if GW owned and operated it's own injection molding machines, which it doesn't, small runs would still cost more to produce.

I'm not defending GW by any means. WH40K is a fucking disease and it's players are a blight on humanity. I'm not saying GW doesn't inflate it's prices either as people stupid enough to play WH40K are also stupid enough to pay those prices. What I am saying is that there is a honest economic component to GW's pricing structure which people stupid enough to play WH40K cannot understand or comprehend.

Why are molds that expensive?

>Even if GW owned and operated it's own injection molding machines, which it doesn't
it literally does you complete moron

because they are manufactured with extremely strong high quality stainless steel and very precise machines

>I'm not defending GW by any means. WH40K is a fucking disease and it's players are a blight on humanity.
A bit harsh, eh?

>t literally does you complete moron

If it does, those machines and their operators still must be paid for. Neither can sit idle waiting for the next set of minis to sell to fools like you. Much like how Avalon Hill was part of a larger printing company which kept it presses busy with other larger job between printing wargames, a GW molding facility must also be doing real work to keep the lights on. Molding figs, no matter how much they cost consumers, simply isn't enough work.

>A bit harsh, eh?

More like entirely accurate. Scroll through a few WH40K threads here. Better yet, go to a FLGS or convention and look at WH40K players as if you were seeing them for the first time.

My favorite part of Bandai getting the license to make Star Wars model kits is the fact that oldschool motherfuckers initially looked at it with disdain because they were snap-fit.

Then they did a complete 180 once they saw how fucking GOOD the quality of the shit they were getting in comparison to the shit they've been eating for years.

>a GW molding facility must also be doing real work to keep the lights on
Not really. GW can barely keep up with demand for plastic soldiers, so their machines are dedicated to that and that alone.

hence the months and months of stock issues when 8th edition kind of blew up in popularity

If only Kevin Siembieda had seen this...

you must be great at parties

>GW can barely keep up with demand for plastic soldiers

They must have a very small facility then.

>Neither can sit idle waiting for the next set of minis to sell to fools like you. Much like how Avalon Hill was part of a larger printing company which kept it presses busy with other larger job between printing wargames, a GW molding facility must also be doing real work to keep the lights on. Molding figs, no matter how much they cost consumers, simply isn't enough work.

>A manufacturing business MUST operate 24/7 otherwise it can't sustain itself
Capitalism was a mistake

Why are "how do plastic injection economics" and "why gundam no money" always the same two fucking questions out of you ignorant illiterate mouthbreathers stupid ass fucking mouths every time, guaranteed?

>>A manufacturing business MUST operate 24/7 otherwise it can't sustain itself

They don't need to run 24/7. They do need to pay their machine operators and it's not a part time job.

Part of the reason plastic sisters dont exist is opportunity cost. I have no doubt they could make a mould and make their money back, but if they spend the same 150k on a space marine mould for a new unit it will sell many more units. Return on Investment is a big deal.

People think D&D's biggest competitor is Pathfinder but it's actually MtG's position as WotC cash cow in Hasbro's eyes.

>if they spend the same 150k on a space marine mould for a new unit it will sell many more units
I dunno... Plastic sisters wouldn't be just an opportunity cost.

Well just look at Palladium's Robotech Tactics kickstarter. Molds cost upwards of $300,000 for good, detailed plastic minis, and then production costs are another $500,000-$600,000.

to be completely honest, probably due to the fact that namco-bandai can buy more product at higher rates.

I paid $20 for my HG Shwarzritter. desu, I'd compare it to a box of ork boyz in terms of sprue. plastic is a bit cheaper though.

it was fucking hilarious.
I haven't seen the legion models yet, but i'm curious to see how close the bandai models scale with legion.

ouch.
That whole shitshow keeps getting more fun to watch. They can't even credit trades properly as it failed.

>The only expensive part is the original molds
Tell your dad he's a moron and doesn't know what he's talking about

You sir are and idiot

>You sir are and idiot
>and idiot

I consult on QA, QC, and statistical process control methods. Several of my clients are solely injection molding businesses or have injection molding departments as part of their manufacturing processes.

Lets just say I know more about the business than some WH40K fanboy whining about the cost of his toys.

Economies of scale. Not only does Bandai have a larger market share, many kits also share parts for which molds have existed for a very long time - all Gundams use a virtually identical faceplate, for example, and there are plenty of generic joints, kneecaps, and other small bits that can be made identically.

Careful model design that re-uses as many existing molds as possible goes a long way towards decreasing costs - LEGO actually had a similar profitability problem in the early 2000s until they starting cutting down on one-off parts for sets and started repurposing more generic pieces.

>3079 models
Are you telling me my third world store can single handily support GW in a slow month?

Those are rookie numbers or GW is super greedy

>They must have a very small facility then.
considering the scale of their operation and the fact that all their manufacturing is done in-house? Not really

Also you have to pay an artist to design the mini and then a plastics engineer to design the mold. Those guys are expensive, most plastics guys i know start with 65.000 € at their first job after finishing university.

>paying artist
>2018
user we all know GW does not pay artist, if they did crap like the warqeeen would not happen.

Mechanical engineer-fag here. Can confirm.

I've worked at a medtech company that also did in injection-moulded components for its products. I worked in the department that monitored injection moulding operations - their moulds were rated to last for around 10 million shots (of silicon injections) before they had to be inspected for wear and tear.

the trick is that it could take up to 4 months to create a replacement mold, so we had to very carefully monitor the health of our moulds and set up projections so we could order replacements in advance.... but not too in advance, since our molds indeed did cost around 100K$ and we had a lot of moulds - and we needed constant, all-year round production.

and mind you, our moulds were SIMPLE - rings, disks, bits that click together.

GW moulds have exotic geometries. I don't even want to think how complex the math for those things are, because when you injection mold you have to make sure that all the bits and sprues are spaced and sized so they get an equal amount of plastic, at the right pressure. You can take a masters degree in mechanical engineering on that topic alone.

That shit is some of the most annoyingly complicated math I know - second only to calculating heat distribitions, and fuck that shit.

They are a cutthroat business, not a charity. Of course, they are greedy.

>no logistics
>no wages
>no additional costs for workforce (insurance, pensions etc)
user what are you doing

One thing is charity and other is trying to be "the league of ruling companies" from armoured core level of greed.
Remember this is a company that would rather sell old metal models as scrap at a lost than sell them at a cost to the fuckers in Nottingham.

And he also forgot the cost of designing the mould before making it.

>Not having unpaid slaves making minis for you in a basement sweatshop
Do you even Anarcho-Captialism user?

Not that user, but I have a question you might be able to answer. If you exclude all the design and engineering costs, how much does the average mold cost to make? As in the cost of milling the mold itself.

That's rather interesting.

Coming at it from the wargaming angle, I wonder how the early adoption of plastics was for men used to pouring molten lead into spincasts.

There was a GW Investor video on Youtube showing some of their processes (it was modern but they showed pewter miniatures so probably like ~2010 before Finecast) but unfortunately I've never managed to find it again.

well, no. Gundams faces look similar, but they are not the same. I have over 40 MG gundams and they all have diferent armor and only a few share the same inner frame, polycaps are the same in every model yes.

Ignore him, he knows jack shit. I've got like three HG GM kits on my desk and the only similar thing between them is the fact they have a visor. The visor isn't even shaped the same in the case of the Sniper II.

I also dont get why people say gundam plastic is cheap....color parts are why more expensive

Bandai also holds the patent on a number of technologies they developed specifically to make Gunpla that they're not about to let anyone else use ever.

They're NOT using the same equipment and processes as minis manufacturers at all, or even other plastic model companies for that matter.

>how much

Next to nothing. Thermoplastic resins like styrene are nigh-infinitely recyclable, so there will never be a shortage of the stuff, and the steel moulds last virtually forever and are amortised over 3yrs. Any sprue older than that is esentially produced for free and represents pure profit. GWIDF likes to pretend static expenses like energy, staff and maintenance are a huge burden, but Citadel cuts their own moulds in-house using CAD to CNC software. The main job of the "machine operators" on the plant floor is swapping-out moulds to produce JUST enough sprue to meet demand and no more. When their shift is over, the mills are set to Full Auto and churn out plastic Space Marines for 16hrs a day without human supervision.

It's like printing money.

>styrene
I hate the stuff.
t. polyurethane master race

>drastik plastik

I would play it.