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>QUESTION:
What happens if a vampire embraces someone without a heart?
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This is from last thread. NOt sure what book its from though.
>Thread Question
I would assume that whatever was keeping them 'alive' ceases working, and they're paralysed until they regenerate one
Let's say Masquerade and Requiem crossover. Not as in "Toreador is clearly Daeva" and so on, but rather Toreador and Daeva existing separately and so forth. Which of the two splats would curbstomp the other? My money's on Masquerade as it has far too many balls to the walls OP Disciplines and generally older vampires who could tear through the Requiem ones at ease.
And what about the other splats? Ascension vs Awakening, Apocalypse vs Forgotten, Fallen vs Descent. How do they all fare?
If there's one thing more retarded than splat-fights.
It's cross-game splat fights.
The Tremere are not real vampires
I think this may be from Book of Shadows.
Anyone got scans of the beast Player's Guide?
I want to see if it's as much of trainwreck as the other Beast products.
Also requesting Enemy Action for Demon.
Thanks,
Muh nigga.
I have a weird question. How does being in control of Infrastructure help a Demon? I've been reading the guide, and I just can't seem to grasp it. Like, the Infrastructure itself produces Aether, but Aether seems to be the 'waste-product' and filling up is hard.
I thought it'd be like an ammo dump or a spare-parts factory, but the uses seem more esoteric than that.
Would you guys stat this thing as having those weapons separately, or just as flavour for Blast charm?
I, uh, what? Is that implying you can just unvampire a vampire? Despite there being other places that state the curse just tells you to go fuck yourself?
Aether is mana, essence, vitae, whatever, for a demon.
It's a waste product, sure, but it's what they use. Angels use essence because they're kinda sorta spirits. Demons ,not so much.
>Angels use essence because they're kinda sorta spirits
Angels are a type of ephemeral entity, but not spirits.
Like most ephemeral entities, including spirits, ghosts, goetia, etc., they feed on essence.
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I was thinking of playing a Taftani in an upcoming game, but I can't find any rotes / any good examples of the amount of successes I'd need to control/command a Simoon with Spirit 4.
Why is this major shit left out?
Mages can accomplish anything in theory: the point is doing the impossible and forcing your rules onto reality's own.
Mages can accomplish *most* anything; Archmages can truly accomplish anything.
In the oWOD, with its conjunctive Sphere madness for spells, accomplishing a lot of major feats was nearly impossible.
In the CofD, particularly in Awakening 2e where Dave intentionally eliminated Arcana and Practice balance "speed bumps," regular mages can perform some amazing stuff. The rules also more clearly define what cannot be accomplished without archmastery (e.g, creating a soul, nuclear detonation, altering the fundamentals of another splat, etc.).
That's semantics unless you're arguing curing vampirism should require archmastery (which would just be your opinion, not actual RAW/RAI). Archmages are simply the most powerful mages and the distinctions between them and normal mages aren't really relevant to this conversation.
>With a howl of RAGE, the W20 Changing Ways PDF and physical book PoD charges at you
at least they pay attention to the feedback
"Also note that the revivfication might not be permanent. Storytellers can, and should, make this rote as difficulty as they like."
I believe Mage Storyteller Handbook addresses that anything a mage does to circumvent aspects of vampiric curses might work, if only temporarily; for example, using Life/Matter to make a Nosferatu pretty would only last a single day no matter how many successes you put on Duration, after the next night, the vampire would default to its natural state as it were when Embraced (like all vampires do)
In CofD, archmages are actually considered a separate splat. It's not just a matter of purchasing a sixth dot in an Arcanum.
Anyways, does this mean that you can do the tremere thingy* without the whole loose your magic downsides?
*The turn into vampire thing
NOT the make war with the Gangrel, nosferature, tzimisce and hermetics all at the same time thing.
That's nice, but we weren't discussing CofD. You're the one who brought Awakening and its differences to Ascension up.
Is a Rank 5 spirit something a pack of wolves can realistically hunt?
Requiem would win out 99% of the time, no questions asked. The remaining 1% would be THIS ONE WEIRD TRICK discipline guys.
Its important to remember that Masq vamps are incredibly physically feeble and incredibly fragile.
An Adept of Time can suppress vampirism. Indefinite duration would function the same as a cure.
Infrastructure = Resonance = Anchors
Infrastructure is "just" the analog of the Resonant condition for angels. They can use it to do stuff, of course, but a common misconception is that Infrastructure = Facilities.
Facilities ARE infrastructure, but just as a murder weapon or a murder scene or a murderer can be resonant for a murder spirit or an anchor for a ghost, infrastructure is capable of being pretty much anything.
Even archmages aren't sure where souls come from or how they're made (probably prometheans).
>An Adept of Time can suppress vampirism
It's cruel and foolish.
Only a suicidal mage would ever let it be known that he could temporarily "cure" or revert certain supernaturals.
Didn't we already have this discussion a few threads back? The only trick Requiemfags had up their sleeve was the one defensive power that negates damage and even that wasn't foolproof from what I recall.
Can, yes, especially with the pack tactic in The Pack which lets them skip defense.
Woofs are best off buddying up with powerful spirits and other splats (if allowed) in their pack. The average pack spirit, according to The Pack, has a dice pool of 20. Also, get a rank 5 totem, even if you only get there by a kerjillion wolf blooded packmates with 1 dot in totem.
I thought Death archmages could create souls.
It's a separate issue from where regular souls originate or return to upon death.
>rank 5 totem
Good luck with that.
I only ask this what reason would an archmage of either ascension or awakening even have to interact with any of the other splats? In any fashion; negative ir positive.
beast players guide and enemy action fucking when?
In awakening? Plenty.
The Pax Arcana is a cold war fought by proxies and/or Rite of Imperium.
>That's semantics unless you're arguing curing vampirism
Also worth mentioning that that rote doesn't cure vampirism nor negates the Curse, it revivifies the vampire's patterns (i.e the vampire patterns are living, he breathes, doesn't halves bashing and cannot soak lethal, produces body heat, can have erections etc...); there are simpler rotes presented in Mage Storytellers Handbook, the vampires keeps everything he had, "is living", but reverts back to undead every night.
CoFd or owod?
can you post text or image of rote?
Masters of the Art actually has an entire section on this starting on page 35. Essentially it boils down to having very little options for company other than other mages since you're locked in the Umbra away from all the Sleepers who mattered in your life... that and simple but deadly boredom.
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Physically, a requiem vampire is about three times as tough as a masquerade vampire, and a high blood potency one gets 2 to 4x the dice pool.
If they don't simply want to push their fist through a Masq vamp's brittle boned chest, while a Masq vamp can commonly get extra physical actions, a Requiem vamp can commonly get extra mind BS actions, which are far more important by all metrics.
The *only* thing Masq vamps have going for them is THIS ONE WEIRD FORBIDDEN TECHNIQUE. And I would never, ever deny that VtM WEIRD FORBIDDEN TECHNIQUES are amazing, not in a million years, but they're also simply not relevant (nor am I going to bother with weird forbidden Requiem techniques).
A 9 person pack without even any werewolves can do it, and there is a 36 werewolf kpop group.
Oh you're right. My bad. "For someone who has lost their own" but its not that would stop you (desoul like 300 people, create new souls for them, give them back the original souls and take the new ones before anyone notices)
Or sorry, with one werewolf; I honestly can't remember if there's a rule that all packs with totems need a werewolf or not, but probably.
Wait really? That actually sounds pretty interesting. I might make note of this for a minor NPC in my Mage chronicle or something. Thanks.
Pic related.
Trujah are on a whole other level.
True Celerity (5pt. Merit)
The True Brujah have an odd relationship with Celerity.
It often comes easily to them, but a few refuse to learn it,
as it has become a symbol of the traitor Brujah. However,
many find it a useful skill for masquerading as Brujah
within the Camarilla or Sabbat, and so a few True Brujah
have developed a slightly different form of the Discipline.
A character with this Merit has the ability to learn True
Celerity. While it works exactly the same as Celerity, it feels
very different. Instead of the character moving quickly, they
slow time down all around them. This Merit confers no
Discipline points for the character, but does allow it to be
bought with experience as if Celerity was a Clan discipline.
While this power functions the same as Celerity, it cannot
be taught to anyone who does not have any levels of the
Temporis Discipline.
>CoFd or owod?
oWOD
>can you post text or image of rote?
I addressed this rote and said there are easier examples to accomplish that as presented in the following image:
Kind of a sad, weak power, especially for a level 6 one, don't you agree?
>THIS ONE WEIRD TRICK
>hope they attack you physically, not mentally
>hope they attack YOU in particular
>hope you can survive a hit at all (as a VtM character, HAHAHAHA)
>melee range
Didn't Guide to the Sabbat Revised have something similar, only not so pathetic? iirc, the Sabbat version was 5 dots and didn't require that you first take a hit, do correct me if I'm wrong.
get shit on
Glad we agree that, as mentioned, 99% of VtM vamps would get shat on, and that the only exception is the 1% (tops) of vampires with THIS ONE WEIRD TRICK.
>this one weird trick
It's the standard six-dot power from DA:V20. Salubri also have Fortitude, most likely normal armor to go along with the supernatural defenses given they're Warrior Caste, and the fourth dot power of Warrior Valeren Armor of Caine's Fury which is listed below.
•••• Armor of Caine’s Fury
The third eye opens, blazing redder than the setting
sun. This radiance spreads along the Salubri’s desiccated
veins in a flash until their entire body is enveloped in a web
of radiant light that defies wounding. The Cyclopes consider
this (and their talent at Fortitude) to be the chief reasons
they are so feared in war. Ventrue have also expressed envy
of this power, and have invited Salubri into their domains
to teach them Valeren in exchange for patronage.
System: The player spends one blood point and rolls
Stamina + Melee (difficulty 7). For each success, the
vampire gains one point of armor, to a maximum of five
points. This stacks with any worn armor. Additionally, for
every two successes rolled, she gains an additional die to
resist Rötschreck. This power lasts for the scene.
>wear class five armor
>have fortitude 6
>have stamina 6
>use armor of caine's fury and roll enough for five succs
>22 dice to soak all forms of damage and 16 to soak agg damage
>this is all before a single drop of vitae has been spent on blood-buffing
>standard six-dot
>need elder ranks of generation
If you're just going to cheat definitions
what's the point?
>"elder ranks of generation"
>can literally start with that generation as a char gen fledgling in DAV20 and even have 6 dots in Valeren
It's not even an elder power really despite Disciplines above 5 being referred to as such. 7th Generation vamps are extremely common in DA and you can make one right at character creation, not to mention that the Salubri antitribu in the Sabbat in MN are generally rampant diablerists same as any other Sabbat vamps. At worst you could say you'd need to be an early Ancilla to pull this off.
>yfw a bumpkin Tremere with 3 dots in Spirit Manipulation has an easier time in controlling spirits than a Mage does with 4 dots in the Spirit Sphere
Just finished Beckett's Jyhad Diary. Did anyone else think it was fucking incredible?
>Hey guys everyone is a salubri with tops disciplines
Fuck off snowflake
Possessing a Rank 5 spirit totem is more than just accumulating the merit dots among the pack.
There are serious narrative consideration necessary to explain how a pack managed to acquire and maintain a demi-god-level being, to say nothing of the demands and limitations made of the pack from such a powerful spirit.
I would never allow it as an ST unless the players were very high-level/XP and offered a VERY good reason and strategy to keep such a totem.
Beckett's is awesome but nuWW is shit. It's literally Indiana Jones and the crystal skull all over again
isnt that how it should be, mages can do a lot but the specialists outpace them in their specialties.
Sam;s wut now?
ah NO. stupid faggot. a true master should be able to stand on their own for everything. True masters don't need others to spoil the work.
this vampfags false flagging as magefags meme needs to end
Mages have a whole sphere of magick dedicated to Spirits while Vampires have a single path that is pretty much better than that entire sphere sans gauntlet crossing
>Mages have a whole sphere of magick dedicated to Spirits while Vampires have a single path that is pretty much better than that entire sphere sans gauntlet crossing
You can just order an appropriate spirit to take you to the Umbra or make a fetish with Path of Spirit Manipulation 4 that lets you step sideways.
Yep. That's the power I mentioned earlier that came up the last time this discussion happened.
>"The only trick Requiemfags had up their sleeve was the one defensive power that negates damage and even that wasn't foolproof from what I recall."
You have to rack up 25 fucking successes to issue this retard a simple command.
That's a Rote, not the description of Spirit 4.
trying to argue masqvamps arnt paper thin when they cant gain extra health levels is fucking retarded.
>rote is giving example of how Commanding a Spirit plays out mechanically
There's plenty of Rotes which have unnecessary shit and are clunkier than they need to be. If you're using one individual Rote as the basis for an entire Sphere then you're just being deliberately ignorant.
What edition is that from?
So, like we've established, less than 1% of vampires (tops), such as elders of an obscure, extinct bloodline, might be able to compete.
Are there any other examples of how enslaving a Spirit goes down, user?
Juggernaut's Gait
>this rare Devotion
>even the strongest Kindred cannot maintain this ability for more than a few seconds at time
>5 dots of Resilience 3 dots of Vigor
>five Vitae per turn
Elemental Form
>costs one point of blood to activate
>only 5-dots power as opposed to 5 + 3
>lasts entire night
>all damage given in the turn gives only 1 unsoakable bashing
>can withstand 14 turns suffering arbitrarily high levels of damage each turn before you enter torpor
>can heal 1 unsoakable level of damage reflexively with just 1 point of blood, so you can resist for 14 + blood pool turns
for every turn juggernaut's gait protects you elemetal form gives you 5 turns (and +14 after you run out of blood) at the same rate of blood consumption
>extinct
Sorry to burst your bubble, but the Salubri aren't extinct. The Seven is just a bs rumor propagated by the Tremere and there's a whole teeming horde of successors to the Warriors (the antitribu) in the Sabbat. This Discipline write-up also comes from a time period in which they're either a Clan or have just fallen from their status as a Clan.
"muh speshal powa's"
Actually, it's even better for Salubri antitribu. It's a power you get a 5 dots in Valeren and it explicitly notes it can't be dodged by any means as opposed to simply drowning the target in unbeatable succs.
••••• Vengeance of Samiel
The Salubri antitribu strikes his foe with superhuman
accuracy and strength, as his third eye opens and
changes to a furious, icy blue. Some Furies invoke the
names of ancient Salubri warriors, while others simply
close their normal eyes and let Samiel guide their
hands.
System: This power costs three blood points. Any
single attack made by the vampire automatically hits the target as mystic forces guide the blow. Attacks
made in this manner may not be dodged, though they
may be blocked, parried, and soaked as normal. The
blow strikes as if the Salubri antitribu had succeeded
with all of his Dexterity + Melee or Brawling dice pool
(which makes for significant damage). This power may
be used only once per turn, and only then the Salubri
antitribu’s sole action is the attack. Additionally, this
power does not work for ranged weapons; only bare
hands or melee weapons.
>form cant move
Walks off and waits awhile..
literally one of the main and more readily avaliable thaumaturgical Paths, even popular around certain chantries
>The Seven is just a bs rumor propagated by the Tremer
There's nothing worse than vile fang propaganda.
Why haven't the leeches been exterminated?
>tremerefag is super butthurt.
Because their Mary Sue plot armor shields them from everyone sadly. Otherwise the OoH or the combined efforts of Gangrel, Tzimisce, Salubri, Nosferatu, and the entirety of the Iconnu would've destroyed them long ago before they had a chance to rise to power and develop their blood sorcery to its full potential.
holy shit do i love valeren in all it's incarnations
pic
with
In owod, yeah, mages are more generalists. They have to be: absolutely every mage needs a gorillion conjunctional spheres to do anything, and the devs don't pay attention to this or the ramifications of this (for example, very few printed OoH guys below archmage can use more than 1 or 2 OoH rotes due to lacking Prime). Additionally, the higher you go the weaker the effect becomes and more XP it cost (for example, you're always better off using static electricity/kinetic monkeying for direct damage than lightning, plasma blasts, etc). Omage is inherently biased on every level towards lots of different weak effects. That's dynamic magick for you.
Archmages experience true suffering as everything costs an insane amount and is crazy hard to do, but there are a few gems (making your life pattern indestructible and fusing other life patterns with yours to become metaphysically The Thing etc).
Nmages are more specialists; gnosis aside, boosting an arcana from 0 to 2 costs the same as boosting an arcana from 3 to 5, so there are truly sexy effects at all levels. Conversely, spells don't become inherently shittier the higher level you go, and they don't require 101 conjunctional arcana. They are also VERY powerful within their area of specialty.
and
>entirety of the Inconnu
lmao
done in with this, followed by taste of vitae
this shit melts any infernalist in no time
You can't move, and you take bashing from using it to protect yourself, compared to Jugg Ain't Got No Powah Steerin Bitch that allows you to whup ass and give no fucks.
after we get Changing Ways
2e The Spirit Ways
Spirit totems usually work (though The Pack has guidelines for incorporating an already mighty spirit) by taking a totally garbago rank 1 spirit, and exalting it to the point of rank 3-5. Obviously, its only that way due to its pack, and were they to die or abandon it, it'd become a useless and barely sentient rank 1 spirit again.
Also, totems don't become massively more annoying the higher in rank they get like in 1e.
I wouldn't really call rank 5 spirits "demigods" either. That's clearly rank 6+ ephemera.
If you wanna imagine something even more kickass than consider this: according to the Salubri Clanbook, Tzimisce provided shelter to them while the Tremere were hunting them down and the two Clans have always been on relatively good terms thanks to the innate hospitability of most Tzimisce. So the prospect of a Salubri learning Vicissitude up to Zulo form, activating it, and then using Warrior Valeren while all their attributes are boosted by it isn't out there by any means. If you want a full "fuck the Tremere" party then you can also toss in a Gangrel for good measure and have teach the Salubri Protean 2 to get aggravated damage claws easily without need of any flesh-sculpting (Zulo form adds an additional die of damage for brawling attacks on top of its attribute boosts according to DA:V20).
VTES has always seemed interesting to me. Maybe I'll try to get into it someday. They should have kept calling it Jyhad though. That was the cooler name.
>aren't extinct
Sorry, meant "nearly extinct." I had a Salubri anti in my game for a long time. Modern warrior Salubri are barely existent and almost entirely of pitifully high generation.
As mentioned, you could cram all these obscure ONE WEIRD TRICK vampires together and you'd barely get 1% of the vampire population, tops. That is all they have going for them, and I pointed out from the onset, that absolutely 1% of the vampire population in VtM is badass.
That's a nice melee combo you got there, shame if somebody were to completely invalidate it with the most common piece of equipment in game taking maneuver to far.
>and the entirety of the Iconnu would've destroyed them long ago before they had a chance to rise to power and develop their blood sorcery to its full potential.
They became vampires in 1022, by 1121 Thaumaturgy had reached master levels (creation of Gargoyles), in 1133 Tremere diableriezed Saulot and were thrown half of the Salubri as diablerie snacks for power boosts;
The conflict with the Inconnu only happened in 1525, the Tremere were already well established and Thaumaturgy quite developed, for comparison, it was in 1496 they put a Curse on the entirety of the Assamite Clan on behalf of Camarilla.