Hero System

Also, which supplements from 4 would you consider “must have.” Thanks for the input, btw.

Hero does share one big pitfall with GURPS, in that much of the player base thinks that you have to build a character "worth his points", and that this is all important.

The heresy of the alternate view, that the points represent the character, is typically viewed with squinty distrust at best, and torches and pitchforks at worst. The heresy was given form in the 4e book "Mystic Masters" in the discussion about Dr. Strange-like astral projection. The chapter produced a huge power definition worth an immense number of points, and the book advocated just handing it to the PCs after some initiation and raising everyone's points to pay for it. The angry howling of the player base was audible from miles away...

The math stays pretty similar across editions, if that's what you mean.
Power building follows a specific method, so a properly documented Power can be rebuilt to an earlier version with relatively little fuss unless the player did something dumb like stack Structures, or didn't write it down correctly.

I could see why. And yes, I recall GURPS, especially low and high level stuff, being like that. For some reason mid-level starting campaigns never really went that way.

Because character building can be a lengthy process, anything with stat blocks for the foes and NPCs you plan to use is going to be incredibly useful. The genre books CAN be useful, but stats are the business.

Trove time again.

> Hero System 6th Edition Trove
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#F!06Q2kY7I!r2JY-moVxFUGl90w6LDa2A

> Hero System 5th Edition Trove
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#F!Ym5RHIJL! Qk1NgisxONlZbCQdbNYBZg

what said

I don'r recall since it's been a while - what was the big change in 6th?

Yes, even with whatever 6th changes, it's very easy to change editions. It's not like DnD where each edition is basically a new game.

I desperately long to play HERO. I have a copy of the Monster Hunter Handbook that's not even been cracked, waiting to go...

Sigh.

I do wish there were less fractions though. Decimal master race.

Can’t say what the changes are really as I’ve only looked at Champions Complete. I can say, for a newb, it didn’t explain things too great and seemed sort of slapped together. I hear Fantasy Hero Complete is even worse, and indeed, most of the newer products since the change in management.

Long is too busy dying, fucking his cat, and fapping to obscure mythology, user. Can't be bothered with the small stuff.

Aren’t we all...

Long is not involved anymore, last I heard.

As of when? He was working on a HERO mythology book a few months ago, I thought.

Out of curiosity, do you know why he stepped down and how the new guy (who, didn’t he use to run their warehouse???) took over?

6e is the most thorough in explaining and exemplifying the rules out of every edition. Champions Complete should not be mistaken for being remotely as comprehensive.

Played Hero for over a decade. I agree with in that 4th or 6th is the way to go.

Ruleswise they're all very similar, but 5th ups the thoroughness. 6th does it again, but with greater clarity thanks to all the feedback 5th received, and adds a few things. There are Hero grogs that stick with 5th because they didn't like X or Y minor change that 6th made, but coming at it fresh I see no reason why you would care.

4th's advantage is that it's more concise, and more enthusiastic. It's a great book, though of course the conciseness comes at the expense of clarity here and there, which is what 5th and 6th tried to address to the nth degree.

Supplement-wise, 4th and 5th are all wonderful. 6th has received very little support, since it changed so little that it was hard to justify new books, and it came as Hero's sales in general were failing and the ability to print books at all dropped heavily. I do like 6th's villain books, though (even if they suffer from the usual writeup bloat common to skill-based systems that develop over time; 5th has the same issue, however).

Broadly, characters from 4th and up will enjoy the most compatibility. 3rd and prior did certain things differently that you can easily get lost on, though again, once you master the system you'll see it's not as bad as you first thought. Still, I'd avoid 3rd and earlier supplements to start.

How similar is it to GURPS? I'm a huge GURPSfag and I've wanted to get into HERO but GURPS is already kind of straining my groups patience for rules.

The biggest change in 6th was the removal of figured characteristics: the process where buying one stat affected other stats. I couldn't have been more in favour of that change, since stats affecting other stats made it pure shit whenever someone used an adjustment power to raise or lower one of them (let's grind the game to a halt while I recalculate all this shit), and it also flew in the face of being a universal game, because some concepts were closed to you because you simply couldn't do some stat-based writeups because one stat would inflate a related stat whether you liked it or not, and you weren't allowed to sell everything back to reverse this (and really, why should you have to in the first goddamn place, even if you waived that rule).

They also got rid of Comeliness, which was nice, because it was pointless and somewhat stupid (as it posited a universal standard of attractiveness), just like in 1st ed D&D.

Some of the new powers they added were quite nice, but they're not major. Still, they're another mark in favour of 6th ed for me, over and above the increased clarity and less dictionary-like layout.

It has been, a few times, but the threads go a bit quickly.

I grew up on 4th Edition, broke my teeth on 5th, have 6th now. I would go with 6th, it's been refined and streamlined and it is the current version. I would also get one of the complete books instead of the two-book set; they seem easier to read (I have them all!).

You can use HERO for everything, but in truth, I've only ever used it for supers and Traveller, I seem to be one of the few people who have the Traveller version of 5e!

HERO is great, you can do anything with it, but just think a bit more; its based on effect, so you may find that several powers can do the same thing.

GURPS is, literally, a Steve Jackson knockoff of HERO that then went into hyperautism and bad design choices. If you like GURPS, you'll love HERO.

Oh yeah I remember now. I was of two minds about it and am still - I would probably have kept it but let you sell back or something. Not a big sticking point though.

Most essential 4th ed supplements are tricky, in that I feel the line didn't have a single book that you absolutely need today in light of also being able to draw on the entire 5th edition line (which is monstrous in depth and breadth).

However, if you're running 4th and only 4th, then I'd suggest the following (assuming a supers game):

Champions
Classic Enemies (there's a good half-dozen enemies books for 4th, of varying quality, but this is the one you simply have to have)
Dark Champions
Hero Bestiary (lots of normal animals, lots of fantasy animals; as comic book games are often cross-genre, even the latter is still useful)
Hero System Rulebook (Champions, minus all the fluff and setting stuff. You will want an extra copy of the rulebook at your table, and it should be this one)
Ultimate Mentalist
Ultimate Martial Artist
Ninja Hero (more setting/suggestions book, but solid advice and piles of neat ideas)
VIPER (the Hydra of Champions: no reason not to use these guys all the time)

Oh man, reading the VIPER book on my dad's shelf was a highlight of my childhood.

Yeah, it's pretty badass. One very solid organization book, and then essentially a mini-Enemies book worth of extra supervillains built in.

Sales at Hero slipped to the point that the company could no longer support all its full-time employees. So Steve moved to freelancer status. He still provides 6th edition rule support on the forums.

>Champions is inspired by The Fantasy Trip
>Hero Games publish a number of Champions-based games, showing the versatility of the mechanics
>SJG make their own TFT-based point-buy system, sell it as generic almost immediately
>Hero Games begin selling a generic Hero System book
The circle of life.

As far as I know there was no interaction between Champions and TFT, but Steve Jackson based GURPS on his house rules from Champions and then brewed in some of his TFT ideas.

What I've read says Champions was inspired by TFT and Superhero 2044.

Seems unlikely, TFT was published in what, 1980 and Champions was 1981? And TFT was very different. It's possible, but I suspect it's something like "TFT use point buy, Champions used point buy, clearly it's based on TFT"

However I'm not an RPG historian and this sort of grognardry is recorded fragmentarily at best, so it's possible.

So really, coming in new, I could reasonably start with 4th, 5th, or 6th and be okay other than expecting a bit of wonkiness if I want to use a book from another edition? Good to know.

I hear pretty good things about the tone of 4th, the autistic completeness of 5th, and the clarity of 6th. What’s the best books to get for running supers, martial arts, fantasy, and even horror (which I don’t hear people using hero much for)?

The very first bit of TFT was Melee in 77, followed by Wizard in 78. And that is the logic, TFT brings in point-based chargen, and Champions refines it. TFT was apparently the third most popular FRPG of the period, with D&D and RuneQuest, so it's not unreasonable to think it influenced Champions.

Amusingly, Metagaming announced a superhero version of TFT at one point.

>and even horror (which I don’t hear people using hero much for)?

HERO has horror supplements. Personally I think no RPG really does horror well, but HERO is probably less good for it than some indie rules lite thing.

One minor clarification first: 6th is just as autistically complete as 5th (more so, somewhat, in that it's even larger). It's just also clearer and prettier at the same time.

Running supers: 5th edition's Villainy Unbound and 6th edition's Champions (in paperback, because the hardcover goes for a fortune) will give you enough genre information, GM tips, and plot ideas that you'll be incredibly prepared for a supers campaign. Very little crunch in either: they're both how-to/idea books, and excellent at that. Dark Champions 5th edition will school you on vigilante style games and give you mountains of (largely superfluous) gun porn. Champions Complete (6th edition rules, heavily cut down for brevity but not scope) will give you a modern rulebook you won't be afraid to hand to your players without terrifying them or making them feel inadequate. The 6th edition villains trilogy of sourcebooks (volume 3 is the most immediately useful: solo villains) or (if you're willing to do the occasional minor conversion / are using 5th) 5th edition's Conqueror's, Killers, Crooks.

Martial Arts: Ninja Hero (4th or 5th edition), Ultimate Martial Artist (5th edition). Watchers of the Dragon (4th edition) is a fun adventure / martial arts world supplement.

Fantasy: Fantasy Hero 5th and 6th edition are both good. A fair amount of overlap. 6th is a very pretty modern book; 5th is IMO somewhat more useful, but you can't go wrong with either. This plus whatever edition's Bestiary (named the same in 4th, 5th, and 6th). Fantasy Hero Complete was less well received than Champions complete, but would still be useful again to help not scare players and give them a book to much more rapidly peruse during play.

Horror: dunno. 4th ed Horror Hero I guess. That and Creatures of the Night: Horror Enemies is pretty much all there was for the line. There's probably better systems for this.

And add expansions to the above as desired.

New to this discussion, but as an old fuck who played them back in the 70s, I'd say that point buy characteristics is the only real commonality, and not enough to definitively link Champions to TFT.

I guess when I say horror I’m probably thinking along the lines of some sorta survival horror thing (zombies, slasher flick), an x-files conspiracy thing, Ravenloft or a more hammer horror-esque sorta thing. So, nothing too taxing but would be good to have nice fear rules and good investigative skills. Oh and weaknesses for monsters.

I know nothing about the books. Could I handle a Supernatual style game with the MI book?

I don't have the MI book, but I can comfortably tell you that you could handle pretty much any game with Hero: that's the point of the system, and it generally succeeds at that. However, it will always be a crunchy system with big rulebooks and slow (but tactically rewarding) combat. There are options to help mitigate this stuff somewhat, but I'd say generally that if that's a turnoff then move on.

Personally I think the rulebook size is vastly overstated, since people have no problem playing Pathfinder or what have you with 4 million sourcebooks, and because the secret to Hero is that it's a toolkit to let you do everything but you don't actually need it all and, as such, can skip a great deal of it for most non-supers games (e.g. if I'm playing a fantasy game, I don't need the rules on FTL travel, etc).

To return to your Supernatural question, one thing you'd need to do is decide how all the major powers that feature in Supernatural work and lay that out ahead of time, because as a toolkit system there's not going to be a list of "Supernatural Powers". So it requires a decent GM investment upfront to lay down the world ground rules. Guys used to prepackaged sourcebook stuff will not be happy with Hero unless playing supers, which is pretty much the only line with enough support to do 90% of the work for you.

Oh, can't believe I forgot this. If playing supers, you should absolutely get either the UNTIL Superpowers Database and its sequel (5th edition), or Champions Powers (6th edition). They're giant books filled with prebuilt powers, and so do you the double favour of saving you tons of time and giving you a good idea of how the system works / what it can do.

I learnt how to build powers by reading the ultimate framework series

>Do you use it only for supers or universal? (I’m looking to use it for *everything*).

I've successfully used it for supers and for a Battletech RPG campaign. I had prepped a low magic swords and sorcery Fantasy Hero game, but moved away before I could get it going (the Valdorian Age supplement is essentially a guide to S&S campaigns as well as a setting sourcebook). While I never got to run the last, I have no doubt it would have worked great.

>Could I handle a Supernatual style game
Monster hunting is pretty easy, but you might have trouble if you involve the big boys.

OP here. Well, as luck would have it, I was able to pick up 4E tonight (the blue Champions version) at a used bookstore for $10. The binding was iffy, but an hour with my comb binder and I have 3 books: Character Creation, Combat, and the Champions sourcebooks. Flipping through, I feel as excited as the first time I opened my players handbook many years ago. Thanks everyone for the suggestions and a great discussion. Here’s hoping we can keep a hero thread rolling!

Awesome

Neat. Thanks. Do you have a 4ed trove or should I dig around the sharethread?

I actually do courtesy of Bundle of Holding but they have watermarks. :P

Check da curated archive

I've played and ran 5E, 5ER, and 6E.

Any of those are fine but the lack of figured characteristics make 6E a lot easier to build a character by hand. Ultimately though you will want to get the Hero Designer program to make your life easier (and it supports the aforementioned the editions so you'll be good whatever you choose).

Genre-wise, I've done mostly superheroes and fantasy. The system's versatile provided you're on board with its cinematic realism and reasoning from effect.

As someone thinking of running a campaign online for HERO (6e, since I have the books for it), does anyone know if there's an easy way to share sheets online? Or an editable PDF? I'd rather not fork out 25 bucks a player for the Hero Designer, or force them to do so.

for source books I'm a big fan of PS238 and Lucha Libre. the idea of a grade school full of kids on par with Superman just cracks me up. and Lucha Libre is just full of crazy shit. (also, both hardcopies have the entirety of 5th ed Sidekick as part of the book) (Sidekick slims 5th ed down to 128 pages)

If there is one thing that prospective new players and GMs should beware of with Hero it's the Speed characteristic. The Speed Chart is an interestingly crafted combat timer but let it be known that Speed, which determines how many actions a character gets in the space of twelve seconds, effectively determines how much a player gets to play the game during combat.

Hero threads rarely try to actually build anything. Let's build something /hero/.

There’s a kaiju book, right?

I suspect its a problem with nailing down what exactly they want.

Lets start out with something classic, how about an all AMERICAN hero?

You know, sadly I don't think there is (maybe third party: I haven't been keeping up with the 6th edition 3rd party output).

Golden Age Champions has some good WWII examples of this. Modern-wise, I'd be tempted for some kind of mecha-eagle personal transport.

Could just build said mecha and it pilot.

start with its basic stats.

Okay. Hero 6e, Heroic or Superheroic?

Superheroic, obviously.

Was Monster Island it?

Has anybody actually used Lucha Libre Hero?

I missed that one, a late 5th edition product (which was around when I had tuned out). It's pretty meh if you want kaiju: just six monsters who are your basic Hero writeups and that's that, with the rest being setting material. It doesn't really do anything with the concept other than give you a few statblocks and a place to go to get your ass kicked. Not bad, but certainly not great.

>Probably no-one has ever played Lucha Libre HERO
It would be the single most glorious game ever

I've played every edition over the last 35 years. 6E has been the best for me, because I love writing my own stuff. HERO Designer makes it easy.

Right? RIGHT? So many ideas just from flipping through, but so sad knowing nobody would play it.

I was kind of afraid of that. It came from the period when they had sold the license to the video game people and licensed it back to put books out. I think that was kinda when the downhill slide really started.

>0

I ran a convention game where the players got to team up with El Spectro against the threat of the Daughter of Doctor Frankenstein. It was nice but only 2 people signed up.

I could even do a long-term Mexican Champions campaign but based on the turnout, I decided that the player interest just isn't there.

I would sign up for that in a freakin heartbeat!!!

Lack of sales at that time was what really did them in, which really as early as 2005 according to Steve Long, but the money they got from Cryptic funded the very last solid sourcebooks and all the colour in them. Book of the Machine is awesome, and the three hardback colour 6th ed Villain books are beautiful. It's just too bad that it couldn't keep pouring in.

Let's start with thr basic 6 CHAR.

STR 30
DEX 30
CON 30
INT 15
EGO 20
PRE 20

CP Cost: 65

Ran a one-shot solo game which I entitled Señor America contra Las Viboras. Player was Mister America from WWE as he fought VIPER Agents, their midget Asesinitos, mad scientist's enforcer Ripper, mutant Viper-men, and mutant Ripper.

Releasing 6e just before the recession sure didn't help. Not that they were supposed to know that.

That should be "which really *started* as early as 2005"

Yeah, 2008 sucked. It's too bad, because they've sold out of almost all the 6th ed stuff they made (so at least some demand was still there), but can't afford to reprint it. Thank god
for POD.

Badass!

you can get core rules from drivethru RPG, they do a print on demand service.

Wish I still had the old files for that. Asesinitos were VIPER Agents with the Small template applied to them. Viper-men, I think, were some sort of Beast-men from the Bestiary. Ripper was Ripper without the Omicron enhancements or armor. Mutated Ripper was just Ripper. Everything was modified for Heroic scale which generally meant cutting all points spent on OCV and down by half. Ripper had points spent on STR-PRE cut in half as well. Defenses were halved across the board too.

Best part of the game was Señor America using his "Hulk Out" power late into the game once he was fighting three Viper-men. I built it as Physical Damage Reduction 75%, Costs END. This alone gave him the edge to handily defeat the Viper-men and to take Ripper 1-on-1.