Mail > Plate

>Riveted mail
Is there SOMETHING in which mail (or scale) is better? Genuinely curious.

>Poorfag

Easier to produce with less infrastructure. Large metal plates are fairly difficult to make compared to small ones or wire.

Fine, but on a combat/mechanical level, the plate is ALWAYS superior?
I am not doubting you mind it, just asking

Tercios > Cavalry

>Laughs in spanish

...

Properly fitted plate made of tempered steel is second to none, both in protection and mobility, it's main disadvantage is just that it's expensive and time consuming to make.

So you mean that not even specific weapons would fare better against plate than mail.
Thank you.

Demonstrably false.

Nope. Anything that worked on plate would work just as well, if not better, on other forms of armor. Eel pikes, halberds, maces, half swording, and all other other things that were all but essential for dealing with plate? They'd do a number on pretty much any kind of armor.

Thank you user. Very exhaustive.

Not really, a lot of weapons would be ineffective against plate armor. People seem to forget that plate armour was worn on top of chain mail and/or gambeson. There is a reason only gunpowder advances made them obsolete (along with all amour).

Only real risk was getting hit on weak point, which wouldn't happen that often and would require you to be on the floor immobilized or too tired to move, but thats why you had your companions and support armies.

>Muh english longbow penetra
no it didn't. it didn't do shit against full plate in agincourt. Reports speak of "arrows like rain" literally hundreds of them raining on the cavalry doing nothing at all, the knights got so many arrows that they got worried that some might by accident enter their visors, so they charged with their heads lowered.

Only real way full plate wearers died was being isolated and zerged, made unable to move.

>But maces
Eeeh not really. Depends on period. The helmets were padded, and worn on top of chainmail coif (this is why they were so big), they were not fitted to the head. They were also not supported by the neck, but by the shoulders. Then you had, depending on period, great helmets, which were worn on top of the helmet and coif.

They werent impervious, but most weapons did nothing to them, which is why people bought them despite their insane price (they would cost more than a house).

Didn't even exist, so guess its better

>Only real way full plate wearers died was being isolated and zerged, made unable to move.
The terrain was shit IIRC

>they would cost more than a house
holy SHIT

Are there relevant periods in which plates and helms can be divided in groups?
Also, the gambeson/chainmail divide was in base of money or in base of the movement freedom?

>why you had your companions and support armies.
so is essentially combined arms and that guy was a tank (not rpg term, I mean an actual battle tank, albeit melee ranged in general).

In terms of protection no, but the flexibility is useful.

Yes, from 12th to 16th century you can tell which is from which looking at the armor. Each of those centuries had distinct advancements, their apex being the 16th gothic plate and the italian versions.

its easier if you search for information on how identify period armour than to explain here desu

In regards to what was worn underneath, honestly I cannot answer that in faith, I would imagine personal preference, climate, if you were on horseback or not (weight) and so forth. It wouldn't be cost, as if you can afford full plate you would easily afford the others.

>from 12th to 16th century
Thanks.
Same with the helms I guess - the last ones were improvements form those great helms worn with he chainmail - unless I am mistaken and those arrived later too.
Also, I guess concerning the maces, you mean there is a difference between a sort of club and those flanged ones later on..

This shit is so fucking gay and retarded.
>a novelty item used in medieval tournaments being used by a hussar against a tercio in a war scenerio.

Whoever made this needs to neck themselves

That is a decent analogy yeah

Riiiiiiiight

>this kills the maille

i've always preferred the aesthetic of 12th century warriors and before.

Mail and gambeson, or just mail, i prefer over a suit of armour.

same here user while plate looks pretty cool I think mail has more of a barbaric fantasy brutal look to it rather than an all over suit of steel

I love the little dance you have to do in order to shoot the really heavy longbows.

As an aside, I would love to see how a battle between the medieval English and Mongolian armies would have gone. Really powerful archers vs. really mobile archers, basically.

I know Poland doersn't really have much in it's military history to idolize, but reallly?
What exactly is the application here, to break those infamous one-man-deep pike formations?

>As an aside, I would love to see how a battle between the medieval English and Mongolian armies would have gone. Really powerful archers vs. really mobile archers, basically.
England wasn't really able to field all that many men at that point, so I figure they would have been swamped and defeated.
Can't imagine them doing any better than the Russians in any case.

Daily reminder that Byzantine cataphracts had to waddle akwardly into melee because their horses were too weak to gallop under all that weight. And yes, I know the guys in your pic are WRE, I'm just saying.

...

Unironically this

> Why was armour not worn after the 17th century?
Not cost-effective enough.

I'm gonna need a source for that

Oddly enough, Mongolian horses are pretty slow, especially compared to European chargers, but they can forage just about anywhere besides Poland.

> their apex being the 16th gothic plate and the italian versions
How do you think you can compete with this, plebian?

Just like how full plate is so heavy that soldiers couldn't run in it?

youtube.com/watch?v=qzTwBQniLSc

I think he's making a point about the cataphracts' horses.
Chances are that if you know what the word "cataphract" means, you don't believe in shit even normies recognize as myths.

Houses were cheaper those days. You didn't have health and safety regulations and there were less people.

You could build your own house with a bunch of guys and some tools. You'd need a skilled blacksmith with a forge to make a full set of plate tailored to you.

Keep in mind that mail was reasonably available before the birth of the baby Jesus while the well tempered and articulated plate armor was well over 1000 years later. It is a rather serious technology jump in difference.

>I know Poland doersn't really have much in it's military history to idolize

Bruh
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Vienna

To clarify: the primary reason houses were cheaper was that you usually did not have to buy the right to build on land. You just had the right as long as you paid your taxes. For the last hundred or so years, real estate moguls have essentially bought up most of the free land to build on and now ransom it at thousands, to hundreds of thousands in some cases, percent increase over its original adjusted value.

The business is a sham

You actually read through that?
Because the Polish forceds didn't do dick in the actual battle, except charge in early like retard and having to be bauiled out.

The Polish king was instrumental in actually getting a relief force together, but that's about it. Winged hussars are the katana of European history memes.

>Winged hussars are the katana of European history memes.
No, that's the longbow. Including the faggots who believe a longbow is actually a better weapon than a 17th century musket because its killing power is feared and respected.

If you have the ifnranstructure, a breast plate takes a fraction of the time to produce, whereas mail takes a fuckton of manhours.

I mean, it may not kill you but being shot by a bow must be like a hit from a sledgehammer.

Wearing a lion or bearskin > any armor
It's like you pussies haven't trained your body to be harder then metal and haven't murdered an alpha predator with your barehands

The balls on this guy to compare a battlefield weapon that killed tens of thousands to a flawed design used to slaughter unarmed peasants.

What's the technical name for this kind of armor?

I don't know which is supposed to be which, but both have killed tens of thousands, both worked best against unarmored peasants and both had a bad time trying to penetrate full plate.

'unarmoured'

Not.

yeah, the armor weighed thousands and thousands of pounds right? Do you know anything about horses, armor, or the concept of weight you dumb mother fucker?

There's a lot of decorative cloth', gauntlets or bracers, tassets and a gorget.

The technical name would be: pretty fucking retarded even on an ornamental scale but it's anime so logic goes to the wayside and there's probably some reason or another for it.

It'd look better without the piecemeal armor tho.

>yfw historical warfare is literally about whose dicks were longer

It should be noted that later plate armors(aka full plate) would be worn without full shirts of mail. Instead, small patches would be placed on the joints where plate didn't cover. Pic related

The Greenwich style would cost as much as a castle, and is a fucking work of art. And the damn Victorians polished away all of it

The artist of said pic is actually retarded though, they throw in a Sun Tzu quote to look smart but only make an anecdotal claim that people "wore less armor in the 17th century" because they buy into the stereotype that a knight is slow and clumsy, when in reality a fully armored knight could still sprint at full speed and mount his horse with no assistance. It's more likely that the new invention of the cannon and musket eventually fazed out full plate armors.

I don't even know who this artist is and I already hate them.

schiltrons > tercios

It's called "artist can't draw hands"

>the only place an arrow can strike is the curve of a breastplate

yeah, what if they hit the inside of the elb...

I prefer earlier periods myself, but man, that is some proper craftsmanship.

Chicken mate.

'Fucking gay' I believe is the Middle English term.

He's not gay, he's just French.

>lances were only a novelty item and never actually weapons

...you guys know that plate armor is worn over mail, which is worn over a gambeson, right?

Depended on the era. That would be true for transitory armor where plate and armor were worn together, but in later eras the only mail a knight would wear would be patches of it at the joints.

So is this an arms and armor thread, or not?

I, the Lord-Commissioner of Arms and Armor Threads, hereby declare that it shall function as one

No arms

but...
THEN THE WINGED HUSSARS ARRIVE!

I agree. Personally something about plate armor has just bugged me; I prefer to lead my settings more in the early iron age sort of feeling to them, or even antiquity but with some iron here and there. Just feels better for fantasy monsters and battles.

Not on plate, the way force dispersion works on armor means that you need either super high velocity or a fuckheavy piece of mass hitting it to feel anything through the armor. The tip of the arrow transfers all kinetic energy, and then deflects. Bullets are different because they mushroom and flatten, turning into a hammer. But arrows lack the velocity to flatten vis a vis how hard they are. Bullets can be as hard as arrowheads, but usually arent. But they flatten generally because of their high velocity. Arrowheads are usually hardened and strong as fuck, they barely chip when they hit plate. So they basically crack the sharp tip off then spin away. If you got hit by a soft metal arrowhead like lead that would hurt. But not insanely bad, a lead ball headed arrow vs a halberd shot would probably be similar in ouchiness.

Thats nice late 15th or 16th century inner limb articulation. Very nice but very expensive, and most probably couldn't afford it. Also bear in mind the later the period of armor after like 1450 the less was generally worn. Mid 15th century milanese armor could have faulds coming down below the butt, full hinged legs, and was usually worn with alot of mail. As guns become more prevalent armor had to get thicker and thicker, whereas in earlier periods it could be relatively thin as guns were less common due to being new and difficult to make well. So by the mid 16th century leg armor mostly consisted of half legs, basically just knees and cuisses to prevent slashes, thin arm armor, bigass pauldrons, and a heavy as fuck breastplate and helmet.

Yes absolutely,

It's very breathable and you can put it anywhere without losing much if any mobility. It's also easy as fuck to maintain. It's pretty simple to make, and its good at protecting from slashes and most thrusts if made well.

Cons are its heavy as FUCK. Twice the weight of plate for the area covered. It provides almost no protection from concussive damage, and you can make specialized weapons to pierce it.

Later in the medieval era as splinted style armor and later plate became easier to make, it became much too expensive. Making mail is very time intensive, and after the plague time = money when you have to hire peasants. Plate weights half mail, and is nigh invulnerable. It's only downside is its hard to put it literally everywhere, which is why even late 16th century suits will still be seen with mail voiders in the armpits.

The English army's greatest victories happened when the French and Scots were being retarded, like purposely running into the meatgrinder at Agincourt.

Mongol commanders were known for their great intelligence and instincts.

It's not a bullet on Kevlar.

It shouldn't hurt much.

Logistics is better. You can pass it to your children, it doesn't require fitting and it's easier to maintain.

It also doesn't have problem with covering joints.

Gambesons, or thick coats of some kind, have been worn to war for thousands of years across cultures. You would be really shocked at how effective a thick batted coat really can be in saving your life. Against concussive hits like maces or clubs it provides very good protection and can be the difference between a bigass bruise and pierced organs and cracked ribs.

Mail generally was only worn under helmets in the Crusades era with the original greathelms. Later on it got relegated to an aventail, which is a mail skirt for a helmet and drapes around the neck to prevent fuckers from getting at your throat. Mail was worn under splint and plate armor in the late 13th and to 14th century, but its pretty redundant to wear mail under plate, so eventually when plate armor improved to be more comprehensive it was relegated to joints in the form of voiders sewed into gambesons at the joints.

Helmets are absolutely divided into periods. It should be noted that this is a very basic image, and many even extant or depicted helms skirt the line between 2 types from different periods, such as griffon style bascinets or sugarloaf bascinets. Generally helmets grew from being a metal bowl, into a visored bucket with good neck articulation over the period of 400ish years. You want to have all around protection, you want ear holes, you want a visor you can lift to breathe and see since you have max 50% visibility, and overlap of gorget is nice so looking around doesnt get you killed.

Maces are fine and all, but problem is that between a gambeson and plate blunt force trauma isnt going to kill a dude in armor before he kills you. Ultimate anti-knight weapon is something like billhook or warpick, a nice spearlike end, hammer to disorient with, and an icepick to perhaps punch through his armor. In fighting guys in full armor its about technique rather than tool. In a fight between 2 guys in armor, i'd bet on the trained guy with a dagger over novice with best weapons.

That pic is the gayest shit I have seen today. Fucking retarded to try and justify that bullshit, just admit that thicc chicks in metal bikinis are your magical realm and leave it at that.

>people dont get that this pic is just bait

Hussars were GOAT against infantry. It got to the point when mercenaries had clausules in their contracts that basically said "We ain't havin that shit"

My fellows of taste.

Okay, since we made this the arm and armor thread, I wanted to test the waters and get some help. I'm making a setting with roughly 1100-1300 level tech, give or take. In addition, the main nonhuman threat is megafauna that roam around, so I've been trying to take that into consideration on what weapons may be favored.

Anyway, I was hoping I could post my current selection, and get some opinions - namely, whether something seems drastically anachronistic, or would or would not exist because of the current progress of armor and such. Like rapiers not existing, or weapons specifically made to combat plate armor.

Here's what I got.

Ranged
- Longbow / Shortbow
- Recurve Bow
- Heavy / Light / Hunting Crossbow
- Throwing Axe
- Javelin
- Sling

Dagger / Shortswords
- Small / Large Dagger
- Razor / Small / Large Knife
- Rondel Dagger
- Stilleto (MAYBE)
- Sax / Long Sax (MAYBE)
- Short Sword

Axes
- Battle Axe
- Bearded / dane Axe
- Hand axe / Hatchet
- Warhammer
- Elephant Knife / Bhuj axe (MAYBE)

Pole Arms
- Quarterstaff
- Short Stick / Bata
- Kern Axe
- Sparth Axe / Bardiche
- Short Spear / Spear / Hewing Spear
- Lance light / heavy
- Bill
- Godendag / Morgenstern (MAYBE)
- Halberd (voulge)

Mass Weapon
- Flail light / heavy
- Mace light / heavy / spiked

Swords
- Arming sword
- Falchion
- Great sword
- Long sword
- Bastard Sword (Probably too late)
- Messer Kriegs (MAYBE)
- Broadsword
- Saber (Maybe scimitar? Needs calvary sword)
- Warbrand

Armor
Materials - Padded cloth / leather / cuir Bouilli / Scale / Mail / Double / Banded

Helms: Pot Helm / Full Helm / Kettle Helm / Coif / Aventail / Gorget

Upper Body: Gambeson / Habergeon / Cuirass (metal / Cuir bouilli?) / Jack / hauberk / arm accessories

Lower Body: Chausses / Leather leggings /Leg accessories (tassets,sabatons,cod piece, etc)

Shields: Buckler / target shield / heater / kite

Most of the maybe's and such are because I'm not sure whether they fit, timewise, or whether the feel too redundant and so on.

>Costume armor is real armor.

>Any armor that isn't as durable as I believe armor isn't REAL armor, it's just costume armor

I am laughing.

>flat riveted mail isn't costume armor
I'm laughing harder at your retardation

It was at this moment Miguel knew.
He fucked up.