I like mage wank settings. The dude shattering mountains and reading minds is just more powerful than a dude who is an expert swordsman.
I like physical Gods walking the Earths (Avatars allowed).
I like Magocracys and Theocracys.
I like sexy servo-armor powered by magic.
Is there a setting for me or do I have to create my own shit ?
>Inb4 Exalted
Personally I don't like it that much. The setting is crowded and I don't care that much for the Eastern Influence.
Yes, there is. Any setting in 3.5
Solid first post best post.
More then that, look up trippy verse.
Issue with that kind of setting though is you are operating in the information>everything tech level. Scry and die is inherent, along with rocket tag. Makes encounters kinda hard to balance given it should just come down to losers imploding and winners seeming to do it effortlessly.
You could also go the other way, and do a fully mundane party that works for a mage god king. They get sent out to do things for him and can call in arcane fire support.
Generally you are going to be making up your own system mods though.
Wheel of Time.
Oh come on. The impact that immortal Mage God-Kings have should be somewhat believable´(and stylish).
Just taking a generic fantasy middle age and adding high fantasy isn't working for me.
That being said the six gods setting looks interesting but has some seriously shitty elements is dislike.
>More then that, look up trippy verse.
I don't think you mean the shop for psychedelic drugs?
>You could also go the other way, and do a fully mundane party that works for a mage god king. They get sent out to do things for him and can call in arcane fire support.
I actually thought about that but it is kind of boring to withhold the cool arcane fire support from the player isn't it ?
Inspired from the Six Gods Setting I thought about an old idea of mine.
> A bunch of extremely powerful mages have found the key to immortality.
>Eventually they started forming realms according to their personal ideologies.
>At some point they start pretending to be Gods. They rely on their magic and a massive bureaucracy to create the illusion of being all-knowing and almighty.
>At some point they start killing of other magic users because they pose a threat (they might reach the point of immortality as well)
>And inevitably the God-Mages start turning on each other. They are locked in eternal wars with long periods of "Cold Peace".
>Maybe some sort of Arcane resistance exists that is heavily persecuted. They still know that the "wonders" are essentially very high powered magic every magic user could (in theory) master.
>I am not sure if they serve the actual Gods or if they have their own agenda. Maybe the shit is even cyclic so that the rebels would eventually replace the "Gods" because magic tends to have that effect.
In that section a mundane party could actually work. Once the players have learned enough about the world they actually learn magic.
>wizards and sorcerers have enough foresight to run a nation
Unrealistic
>Clerics have enough ridiculous miracles to rule a nation
Unsatisfying
>The thing you like
Objectively bad
>>Clerics have enough ridiculous miracles to rule a nation
specifically through magic alone.
>Humans exist
>some of them are better fighters due to genetics/better food
>Warrior Caste is established
>Feudalism happens
>somehow having actual super human abilities is no qualifier to run a nation but better trraining and better food for Samurai and Knights is
Dude, it's one thing to cram all your text into one paragraph, it's another to give each sentence it's own paragraph.
wtf
Somebody needs to make an opposite image for "Have you tried not playing D&D"
> better trraining and better food for Samurai and Knights is
Wrong, wrong
"Better food and training" is not the reason, it is consequence. Feudalism is a SYSTEM. That's the most important part.
Conqueror takes over the land, divides it and gives away parts to his generals, relatives etc. And all the way down. Then a system is established that governs how rights to the lands are held, transferred and so on and so forth
It is not personal provess that is important, it is being part of the system. There were some extraordinary individuals that managed to become part of the system (Sforza, Gviskar etc), but the very fact they strived for being part of it (title recognized by Papacy/Emperor etc) is what matters
Meh. Sounds like it'll turn into a series of back and forth "I planned for you to do that" until the person who had prepared the most spells that day wins.
I mean, unless you use a system where magic is a skill check that could actually fail. Then there's at least a tiny chance that players will have to use effort to solve their problems.
TLDR of trippy verse: basically takes the mechanical implications of 3.5 magics to their natural conclusion. Civilization is a bunch of city states, were the entire population are casters of some sort. Feed by create food/water traps, and protected by shadesteel golems.
Outside warded city walls no settlements last because any city can drop a scry&die under time stop until everything is dead.
Also, that setting is basically masters of magic. I would recommended playing that game a lot.
What kind of adventures are had by player characters in such a setting?
Yeah Feudalism is a SYSTEM of Government.
And every system of Government is reliant on the support of at least one group of society. As you mentioned it yourself Conquerors and their military followers and ultimately their descendants.
Feudalism essentially was reliant on a caste of specially trained warriors once the system had somewhat stabilized. With better food and better training they were able to keep the rest of society in Check. 1001+ massacred peasant rebellions etc.
Of course individual skill is not that important but the mere fact that great skill at arms allowed social mobility in hereditary aristocracies clearly shows that the foundation of Feudalism always was the monopolization of military power.
My argument now is: If you have a group that is able to effortlessly monopolize military power (firestorms and divinations have that effect) you sure as fuck can't ignore the fact that in most places this group would naturally be the ruling elite as long as you don't have technology as an equalizer.
So if you have a world with a strong magical system that is only available to a small minority you will end up with Magocracys IF there are no other equalizing forces.
> technology: Can effectivly equalize or even destroy the advantage most magic systems have.
>Gods: If Zeus is walking around and has a problem with mages that is a god explanation why Mages are not in charge.
>wide availability: If everbody and their grandmother has magic it isn't a special skill that would allow monopolizatiom of power. This is often the case in settings with weaboo faitan magic etc.
Sounds actually interesting ?
Do you have a link?
>The dude shattering mountains and reading minds is just more powerful than a dude who is an expert swordsman
Why every bullied-in-school mouthbreather tries to compare mages from high magic settings with warriors from low magic settings?
If it is just a dude who is an expert swordsman, compare him to Conan type wizard - charlatan who mostly devices and only knows handful of working rituals which require complex preparations.
Dude who farts storms should be compared to some herculean champion who grinds mountains with bare hands.
Because the dude who grinds mountains IS a mage you retard.
Sure he isn't a classic caster but a fucking Dragonball Z weaboo faitan magic dude is essentially a MAGE who focused on physical magic.
And don't act like you have a TON of setting where you have a serious powerlevel disconnect between fighters and mages.
>If il decide what mage means I cant ne wrong
Let's be honest, this is how it should be. Even the physical differences between a warrior and a mage are easily solved with a simple growing/shrinking spell, there is quite simply nothing that a warrior can do that a mage couldn't do better. That isn't to say that everyone is mages, because being a mage is hard, but rather that mages are simply superior.
>the dude who clearly uses magic isn't a mage because he uses a sword
If everbody uses magic everybody is a mage.
Don't be a fucktard. I was clearly talking about settings where fighters have no magic at their disposal.
If you can deal with it not being out in the open, masquerade style, then Mage: The Awakening's setting and Dresden Files' setting might work for you.
Same, seeing characters busting their asses to overcome impossible circumstances is my fetish.
>Sure he isn't a classic caster but a fucking Dragonball Z weaboo faitan magic dude is essentially a MAGE who focused on physical magic.
So literally everyone who is capable of feats beyond what a modern day human can do is a mage?
Stop with this idiotic meme, you degenerative faggot.
Yes, if by "magic" we mean anything extraordinary and supernatural, then epic champions are indeed magical. But this is broad, simplistic definition and not what OP has in mind. He speaks about casting - incantations and all that, foci waving, dudes of bookish sort. All of this is heavily tied to flavour of the setting, and underlying mechanics are bound to its metaphysics, so it will be interpreted differently each time. Wuxia is a good example - casters are more like taoist sages that do miracles through the deep philosophical understanding, while champion warriors cultivate the body\spirit energy to perform unthinkable feats.
Handwaving everything miraculous as casting is retarded.
No, you fucking moron, it's not because he uses a sword, but because in-universe underlying principles for his extraordinary abilities are different.
Is there a functional difference between doubling your natural strength through spells by spending mana and doing the same thing through techniques by spending Ki?
Narrative wise? Maybe. Mechanics wise? Not really.
So in the end, everyone has a form of magic at their disposal, the difference boils down to how they're doing it; like how a Wizard casting spells is much different than the way a Bard or a Sorcerer casts spells, but they all pull from the same general spell list.
And its the narrative that is important
>Mechanics wise? Not really.
Sure there is. I've played Anima, where you can do that. Ki and Zeon (The power source of magic) are quite different and mechanics that interact with one don't innately interact with the other.
>Narrative wise? Maybe. Mechanics wise? Not really
But it is the narrative that matters! When my stabby sworddude spends some of his stamina points to sprint - does it make him a caster? Is Superman a caster?
>everyone has a form of magic at their disposal
As in having extraordinary abilities? Indubitably. That doesn't mean everyone is a mage, because such denomination is tied to the flavour. Even in 3.P optimized fighters can grapple wyrms, this is already unrealistic as hell, yet you won't call manoeuvrers casting, because in this settings those things are separate categories.
>manoeuvres
>And its the narrative that is important
The narrative serves the mechanics, because if there is a dissonance between the fluff and the crunch, you end up in a situation where people just ignore the fluff in favor of what they can see happening with their own eyes.
Take D&D's HP system, it claims that it's a combination of hardiness, good fortune, morale, skill, etc. yet the mechanics will only generally reference the restoration of HP through healing wounds and the fact that you take no penalties from fighting bloodied as opposed to fighting at full health, so people generally assume that HP is Meat Points.
Then when you start adding mechanics that treat HP like it's supposed to be, such as the 4e Warlord's power that allowed him to restore HP through words of encouragement or the 5e Fighter's Second Wind ability, people become confused because it conflicts with their perception of how that mechanic works, even though the mechanics that they're familiar are wrong.
>But it is the narrative that matters!
see If the crunch and the fluff aren't 1:1, people are going to ignore the fluff in favor of their own head canon based on how the mechanics deal with something.
>Even in 3.P optimized fighters can grapple wyrms, this is already unrealistic as hell, yet you won't call manoeuvrers casting, because in this settings those things are separate categories.
see pic related on my response to this sentence.
>If the crunch and the fluff aren't 1:1, people are going to ignore the fluff in favor of their own head canon based on how the mechanics deal with something.
And what about those systems where ki and magic are mechanically different?
>I like mage wank settings. The dude shattering mountains and reading minds is just more powerful than a dude who is an expert swordsman
Are there any non-D&D settings where a dude just going to school and studying hard can end up controlling planes and stopping time and shattering continents? y'know, so I can avoid them
WoT did a lot wrong but fuck if Dumai's Wells didn't get me diamonds.
>And what about those systems where ki and magic are mechanically different?
The only marginal mechanical difference between the two is that Ki has much less options to spend it on in comparison to what you could spend a spell slot on.
I mean, what's the difference a Wo4E monk in 5e and something like a Sorcerer or a Druid? Hell, most of the Wo4E monk's abilities are just spells refluffed to suit their aesthetics.
>Sure he isn't a classic caster but a fucking Dragonball Z weaboo faitan magic dude is essentially a MAGE who focused on physical magic.
It must be so easy to win arguments in your head when you start from tautologies.
You know there are non-D&D systems, right?
>Dresden Files' setting
Patrician
Not really. In most other sessions mages can use study to learn and practice new spells but most of their kit depends on them using their powers in the practical sense.
Only D&D pushes the idea that Wizards gain power from reading books, and even that's a bit of a misnomer since MU could actually create their own spells in older editions.
You know we're basically discussing a D&D-centric problem right? Hell, even the problem itself is only a problem in one edition of D&D specifically.
The thread literally started with asking for settings/systems for a given game type.
The Elric setting of The Young Kingdoms has all of these elements. You could look at the Elric stories, or you could also look at the assorted Elric rpg/Magic World rpgs that are around.
Well obviously we've taken a slight detour. I mean, you know it's a D&D centric issue, so why are we arguing about it when it's confined to specific interpretation on both the rules and the setting?
>I like mage wank settings
HP example is invalid, since the whole confusion happened because of flavour inconsistencies (calling hp restoration healing). Not having penalties while fighting bloodied only reinforces the concept of stamina, hardiness, etc, because it is more intuitive to assume that actual wounds will have more of an impact on fighting prowess than being tired.
Mechanics are also relative and more importantly - abstract. You can intuitively assume that HP represents some form of physical integrity, because it is spent in very direct and simple manner. But if they didn't call spellslots as such, you can interpret them as anything you want, because at the end of the day - it is just an ability you learned that can't be used all the time because it is so exhausting. That's why I mentioned stamina and sprint early. Crunch mostly dependant on flavour because of its abstract nature.
>doubt
Don't be, I never said anything about greater wyrms, just wyrms (but it is still a feat of extraordinary might). Glass ones can be grappled with grapple focused fighter of specific race. But it would be pointless anyway.
>HP example is invalid, since the whole confusion happened because of flavour inconsistencies (calling hp restoration healing).
But that's my point, if the fluff say one thing but the mechanics paint an entirely different picture, people are going to assume that the mechanics are the correct interpretation, even if that interpretation is flat out wrong when comparing to the way it's supposed to work.
>But if they didn't call spellslots as such, you can interpret them as anything you want, because at the end of the day - it is just an ability you learned that can't be used all the time because it is so exhausting.
Which, again, would become confusing when you fact in spell-like abilities and X/day abilities like a dragon's breath weapon. Like why can I only cast magic missile twice a day, but I can't use my dragonborn's breath weapon multiple times between short/long rests?
If you call them spell slots though, it implies that it's a separate resource that's only for spells.
You fucking retards.
There is a scale involved here.
>Elite fighters can pull of Jackie Chan type shit
Hey, congratz your fighter can jump very high and is able to kill more henchmen than a normal human being could. No I wouldn't call a fighter like this a mage.
HOWEVER we are still faced with the same "problem" of inconsistent lore. In a setting with even medium powered Mages we still have the problem that Mages easily wipe the floor with these fighters.
Who would win? A deatheater slinging "Avada Kedabras" left and right or a dude that is really athletic and is able to pull of some amazing shit in close combat.
And at this point we haven't talked about illusion, scrying and other shit. Mages are really flexible and a lot of shit they can do is useful beyond fighting.
>Elite fighters can pull of Wuxia shit
The same as above albeit in a reduced form. A setting like this might work without being a mage wank but desu Mages can do everything that a Wuxia Master can + even more nasty stuff.
And high level Wuxia shit REALLY blurs the line between fighter and mage. If you have a dude who can run over water and shit thats cool still a fighter.
If you have the wise master who sees the movements of the enemies in advance, can cut through solid stuff without damaging it etc. I can still let that slide but come on the dude obviously connects to the magic energy with physical acts.
> Elite fighters can pull off Weaboo faitan magic/Neo/DBZ/Exalted shit
Come on. In a setting like this we probably don't have the concept of a mage. If a dude is able to make his sword burn and then cut through mountains he is obviously just channeling magic via a physical path. A world like this is probably full of magic and all kinds of paths are able to access it.
Sure these people are probably called fighters BUT come on they are obviously using magic.
1/2
>I can still let that slide but come on the dude obviously connects to the magic energy with physical acts.
No.
Go fuck yourself.
Magic does not mean "superhuman" or "supernatural"
>reddit spacing
>the narrative serves the mechanics
this isn't and should never be true in any ttrpg aside from simulationist games and genres where hard rules need to be enforced at all times
2/2
This is the core of the issue. In a world where fighters can pull of weaboo fightan magic shit people would probably be weirded out by the sharp line we draw between fighters and mages.
For them everbody obviously draws from the same magic/ juju / force / ki. Some people are more talented physically so they chose that way for casting/channeling and others are gifted intellectually or they make good music.
And it is lazy world building if the fighter and the mage both defy the laws of physic, both throw around fireballs but the people draw a sharp line between them. I mean come on just because a dude is strong and fast he isn't able to suddenly withstand dragon fire.
The problem of lazy world building isn't DnD specific.
Sure there are systems were magic systems aren't that strong but a lot of settings have lazy "fixes" or no explanation at all why clearly superior mages weren't ruling the world.
Yeah sure dude people wouldn't reconsider their stance once the first one
"Haha I am so strong that I am suddenly able to see how my enemies are going to behave hours in advance."
"I am so quick that I can throw fireballs with my Ninjutsu skills"
"I have trained so much that I now have Ninja eyes that can see through all illusions"
Are you mentally retarded? There is an obvious disconnect at some point. A fighter that bends physical capabilities a little for Cinematic purposes is one thing.
But at some point it is clear that he is obviously reaching some supernatural power or state with his physical acts. Think a King Fu monk that suddenly starts throwing a fireball.
We can call it supernatural force to mask that you lost the argument but at that point I could argue that Necromancers are CLEARLY not mages.
Desperate
no we fucking aren't
you know, I think that there's something special that defines the line between defending your point and sperging out
nothing to worry about tho, you've definitely crossed that threshold a while ago
>Sure these people are probably called fighters BUT come on they are obviously using magic.
That's the thing. You go with 'Everything supernatural = magic', while other people are going with 'Magic is a specific sort of supernatural'. Heck, it's something that Anima expressly covers. You can have mundane magic (Too low scale to do truly inhuman things), supernatural martial stuff (Passed beyond the human) or godly either (Beyond what even the greatest warrior or mage could do without being divine) if you wanted.
If the lore doesn't match the mechanics, people are just going to make assumptions based on what they can do mechanically, which will cause more confusion down the line.
Keep in mind, you don't have to go 3.PF or GURPS levels of bookkeeping to have mechanics that follow the lore, but if you're in a game that claims that a creature can jump over a waterfall in one jump, yet it has the lowest physical stats in the game and it gets no inherent bonuses towards jumping, people are going to scratch their heads and wonder how this creature is supposed to jump a waterfall when it can barely jump the curb of a sidewalk.
So if the lore states something, the mechanics should reflect what it can do.
>on mongolian tapestry forum
>special subboard dedicated to sperging out about nerd stuff
>go to thread that clearly states in the OP that it is about magewanking settings
>start discussion regardless
>lose
"Haha but you took this way to serious and sperged out."
It is always sad when you can't accept that you have lost a discussion. This is Veeky Forums we are here to sperg out about irrelevant stuff.
And I think that is a really artificial distinction that stems from lazy world building. If we have a world where everybody is able to use supernatural magic wonders there is obviously some kind of supernatural powersource.
I get the distinction between Mana and Divine Energy bestowed upon you by the Gods. I personally don't like it but it makes sense to me.
But I think the distinction you mentioned is shit. What is the fundamental difference except for the power level and the way to channel the supernatural? For me fighting magic is just a sub category like rune magic or Necromancy.
Divine Power is fundamentally different because a sentient higher being bestows you with powers in exchange for worship and upholding a certain morale code.
The rest is accessing a supernatural power by mastering different skills that allow you to access said supernatural Energy. Creating artificial differences here seems like bad world building.
Aktchually
It's TIPPY verse. Not trippy. Named after the autist who took it to the logical conclusion.
>The rest is accessing a supernatural power by mastering different skills that allow you to access said supernatural Energy. Creating artificial differences here seems like bad world building.
So your imagination is severely limited, I get it.
I personally love the distinction between magic being a sort of mutating/corrupting force, while "inner power" - like the sort you get from martial arts being much safer but more limited. (And divine power being both powerful and safe, but it can be only used for your deity's ends.)
Corrupting force to me sounds like a Demonic Power, the other side of Divine Power so to speak.
I mean yeah it is possible to have magic as something Unholy and dangerous but that kind of bites with a magewank setting...
>Corrupting force to me sounds like a Demonic Power, the other side of Divine Power so to speak.
Yes, but mages do not get it from the demons, like warlocks/evil priests, but forcefully taking it without giving anything in return.
>I mean yeah it is possible to have magic as something Unholy and dangerous but that kind of bites with a magewank setting
Not necessarily. I mean mages could simply not give a flying fuck that they are mutating to hell and back and starting to have REALLY no sense of right and wrong. And if you make it so that a mage can last a few centuries before the nasties finally get him, it'll work jut fine.
great wizard battle
Not necessarily. I mean mages could simply not give a flying fuck that they are mutating to hell and back and starting to have REALLY no sense of right and wrong. And if you make it so that a mage can last a few centuries before the nasties finally get him, it'll work jut fine.
I still don't think that it is a magewank if magic is a force of evil that is eventually bound to drive you to madness eventually.
Sure mages might be still OP but now there is an actual (kinda huge) drawback for being a mage.
A wank needs something that is just OP without drawbacks to equalize it.
What the fuck. What.
This is really cool.
"I need you to go find a thing, because magic is more visible and we need all the golems for an ongoing war."
"We need you to go find an artifact save our nomad society from being destroyed in a war between two magic city states."
"We need you to go locate a group of monsters warded against scrying. They threaten an archeological expedition."
giantitp.com
Worth remembering it is high end D&D optimization, so not recommended raw.
Well, this is because you and others grew up on 3.5. Magic can't have drawbacks because it is a primary class feature. At most you have daily spell limits you run into. Most magic systems have an inherent cost(Casting spells eats at your soul, body, wealth, draws the attention of evil, is tiring, requires absurd amounts of time to benefit, can be done x times per life, requires charging from some energy source, ect.)
D&D is like, lol scry timestop teleport drop large sack of explosive ruins teleport. Oh no, I am through a few spell slots, time to sleep in a rope trick in a personal demiplane. Tomorrow I blow up any other city.
Look at all you dumb motherfuckers complaining over wizard supremacy
Godbound is the setting you want because magic is just a sub-category to the theurge.
Ikr? These fighter-fags are sad...
Please stop.
>The dude shattering mountains and reading minds is just more powerful than a dude who is an expert swordsman.
Tell that to all of the sorcerers I have slain with nothing but cunning and the sweat of my brow!
good read
but still depends on the setting :^)