Arms & Armor, World Building, and Lore thread

So I've been looking for the right thread to post this in, but I figured I would just make my own thread. So I'm making a campaign setting, with a few stipulations.
>Setting is low fantasy (magic is the sort of stuff witches and seers do, not PCs)
>Tech range is roughly 1100's to 1300's at the latest
>In place of standard fantasy fare, prehistoric megafauna and such take the role of monsters, and are both feared and revered in folklore and what have you.

Since I'm but a single person, I was hoping Veeky Forums would help me out with some suggestions with my setting. Mainly I'm struggling with making sure all my weapons and armor are roughly in line with each other, development wise (so I don't end up with a DnD anachronistic plate armor situation), as well as any suggestions for weapons, armor, or cultural quirks you might think would come up from living in a world where you have carnivorous monster pigs the size of horses, giant terror birds, and 26 foot long komodo dragons?

All help is appreciated, and otherwise feel free to dump pics and inspiration.

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Other urls found in this thread:

youtube.com/user/neosonic66/videos
manuscriptminiatures.com/
talbotsfineaccessories.com/armour/effigy/All-Effigies.htm
deremilitari.org
byzantinemilitary.blogspot.com
greatmingmilitary.blogspot.com
themedievalhunt.com/
arms-n-armor.com/sword156.html
myarmoury.com/feature_mail.html
twitter.com/NSFWRedditGif

Here is the weapon / armor list that I currently have. I tried to tailor it down to a sizeable but managable list, to prevent too much bloat.

Ranged
>Longbow / Shortbow
>Recurve Bow
>Heavy / Light / Hunting Crossbow
>Throwing Axe
>Javelin
>Sling

Dagger / Shortswords
>Small / Large Dagger
>Razor / Small / Large Knife
>Rondel Dagger
>Stilleto (Too late/ plate development I think)
>Sax / Long Sax (Maybe - feels a bit redundant)
>Short Sword

Axes
>Battle Axe
>Bearded / dane Axe
>Hand axe / Hatchet
>Warhammer
>Elephant Knife / Bhuj axe (Useful against megafauna maybe)

Pole Arms
>Quarterstaff
>Short Stick / Bata
>Kern Axe
>Sparth Axe / Bardiche
>Short Spear / Spear / Hewing Spear
>Lance light / heavy
>Bill
>Godendag / Morgenstern (Too late maybe?)
>Halberd (voulge)

Mass Weapon
>Flail light / heavy
>Mace light / heavy / spiked

Swords
>Arming sword
>Falchion
>Great sword
>Long sword
>Bastard Sword (Probably too late)
>Messer Kriegs (Not sure if needed)
>Broadsword
>Saber (Maybe scimitar? Needs calvary sword)
>Warbrand

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Armor
Materials
>Padded cloth / leather / cuir Bouilli / Scale / Mail / Double / Banded

Helms
>Pot Helm / Full Helm / Kettle Helm / Coif / Aventail / Gorget

Upper Body
>Gambeson / Habergeon / Cuirass (metal / Cuir bouilli?) / Jack / hauberk / arm accessories

Lower Body
>Chausses / Leather leggings /Leg accessories (tassets,sabatons,cod piece, etc)

Shields
>Buckler / target shield / heater / kite

Hopefully some fa/tg/uys can make some nice suggestions

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Take out Great swords and Bastard Swords. They don't start existing until the late medieval period and exist almost wholly in the realm of Berserk and Dark Souls autism.

Not much of a reason to draw distinctions between helmets either, if you're gonna leave out the smaller helms.

Take the buckler out as well, too late.

I dunno what the fuck kind of clusterfuck system you're using to run this game but there really isn't a need for about a third of your options and I doubt your players are going to use them anyway. So really just google everything you've listed and you'll know what to cut out by time period.

>Tech range is roughly 1100's to 1300's at the latest
>1300's
Be sure to include crude hand-cannons and artillery, then. Or fireworks at the very least.

Also, a long time ago someone on here gave me this idea:
If giant monsters are common in the slightest, then there's probably specialist weapons and tactics developed to kill a certain monster if it appears. user gave an example where a local militia was fighting a giant demon-turtle, and the dudes were using spears and spike-hammers that were heavy and long enough to require three men to operate. And you can be damn sure that flaming oil and pitch would be used generously to corral and kill certain horrors like that 26-foot komodo dragon you mentioned.

>Take the buckler out as well, too late.
Bucklers have existed since at least the early 1300's, as evidenced in the M.S. I.33 manuscript which details sword-and-buckler techniques.

Keep the buckler OP.

I can definitely see the bastard sword taken out for it's late existence, but for the great sword I was meaning more of one of the larger crusader swords, like Oakeshott XII-XIII or whichever it is.

The system I'm using is a mostly The Riddle of Steel for combat, and some of the Game of Thrones RPG for social combat, house creation rules and stuff. The former is what really calls attention to the weapons and armor - basically combat is pretty rare in game, but when it happens whoever is most prepared is gonna come out on top.

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>or cultural quirks you might think would come up from living in a world where you have carnivorous monster pigs the size of horses, giant terror birds, and 26 foot long komodo dragons
Make sure you have rules for ingested poisons to kill those things

Gunpowder is not common by any means, but I intend for some of the holdings that are located nearby a particularly dry desert / mountain coastline would have access to the materials to make stuff like saltpeter and crude artillery and what have you. They probably keep it under wraps though, to maintain a monopoly on the process.

Think the buckler should stay then? I figured it would feature at the very least in dueling techniques and such, since there wouldn't be as many late medieval style plate and half handing schools or anything like that.

I figured they would probably maintain regular patrols to keep and eye out for the particularly large or dangerous megafauna. If spotted, they would probably form large parties to drive them out, by horseback and with spears and such. Also, sharp chopping weapons like the falchion might come in handy in a close encounter. I will fully admit that I didn't really consider how much poison would be needed to take them down, or that it might be a common practice!

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I think it it would be best to decide whether or not you want to include 14thC equipment near the start of the process. There was a great deal of continuity in the equipment of the 1100s and 1200s, even though development was never static. By the mid 1300s the combination of accumulated changes and a burst of developments, especially regarding plate defenses, means that it's easier to tackle it seperately than have it coexist with styles two centuries earlier. A tighter period focus would allow a more detailed examination of what equipment would be suitable and how they interact. In either case your lists need some work. Another consideration is what system you are using and how much detail you want the armoury to have. The many types of polearm might just be flavour variants to a generic profile or have their own stats and tactical niches.

Great swords are a late development, but bastard/hand-and-a-half swords are known from the turn of the 13thC and are fairly common by the middle of that century. Likewise there are real distinctions in helmet designs which a system that does more than just assign an AV would model.

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Well I figure 1350 was roughly my cut off, with a lot of the new developments occurring in that period showing up more as unique equipment and cutting edge developments more than common fare. Over all, mail is the usual armor for those who can afford it, with coat of plates and brigandine being available as well, though as mentioned stuff like finely crafted brigandine and plate like armor accessories are more "new developments" in the setting.

As I said in the combat system is taken from The Riddle of Steel, so stuff like weapon capabilities in regards to length, tactical niches and stuff are important,as is armor / helmets and what they specifically cover and protect.

Any suggestions on what the list needs or doesn't need is appreciated! and thanks for the advice user, I'm trying to make a unique setting but still want the arms and armor selection to make sense.

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I suppose the other key question is the focus going to be on a typical Western European culture, or are Eastern European or Middle Eastern style armaments going to make an appearance- at least initially?

Are there any particular areas you want tackling first?

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Well when initially designing the setting, I tried to avoid making it "notMedieval France" or otherwise standard Western European copy pasted culture, and instead create their own values and such from their history and so on. For example, a lot of their "feudal system" of such is based off of medieval Japan's system of taxation and land division, while their dress probably takes a lot from the eastern european - sort of like an Ivan Bilbin piece. So there's a blend of inspiration, while I used mostly western european weaponry for simplicity sake.

I suppose I could use some help with regards to armor. Since most of it is mail or brigandine and such, would they have had stuff like greaves and sabatons, or would there had mail or woven plates instead?

Also, I'm trying to figure out where polearms would fall into this time period, since a lot of specialized polearms focused on plate armor and such, right?

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Kettle helmets=100% sex appeal.

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Damn straight

Mail chausses with intergrated feet become common in the mid/late 1100s. Plate limb armour layered over the top of mail, in the style of the two effigies I've posted, became common for knights in the early/mid 1300s. Plate sabatons don't really gain traction until later decades though. Textile leg armour covering the knee and lower thighs, often with intergrated plate kneecops, were another option to layer over mail.

For precise details of mid-14thC armour, the knyght errant youtube channel is excellent. Very well researched, citation of sources and good quality reproductions. youtube.com/user/neosonic66/videos

I would also check out manuscriptminatures for period illustrations of wargear. manuscriptminiatures.com/

There is also this summary of armour on knightly effigies in the 1300s to showcase trends among the best equipped warriors.
talbotsfineaccessories.com/armour/effigy/All-Effigies.htm

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Do you fellows have any books/videos/etc about period armies on the march? Specifically baggage trains, and camps. Maybe even naval transports with the embarking and disembarking?

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Regarding polearms; certainly by the 1350s many forms had come into use and some had been wielded for centuries by that point. Glaives, two-handed axes often with a crescent blade, bills,goedendags, voulges and the like are all infantry polearms from the period. And of course lances and spears, including some with very longbladed heads. Pollaxes and true halberds though are more late 14thC weapons, so if they were included it would be as hot off the forge prototypes. It might also be worth mentioning that lances are still fundamentally stout spears, the iconic lance with a flared shaft or vamplate to protect the hand is again a later fashion.

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Thanks! That helps a lot user. And I think a lot of the early to mid 14th century stuff will be of use to show sort of the technological progress being made, so that as all the lords of the region show up, several can be decked out in this new, more sophisticated stuff. And of course more specialized pole arms would make an appearance too. Overall I figured that a lot of the more basic pole arms would remain standard, especially ones used for spearing or chopping, as they would probably be of use in fighting off large animals like the megafauna mentioned.

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Quickly going through the the weapons list, the main things to remove would be the recurve bow (some European bows had recurved tips but were strung below that point on ordinary limbs), stiletto, seaxes, greatsword, broadsword and sabre. The various axes are a bit of a jumble that wants streamlining and clarifying. On the subject of bows, longbows were used across Europe and the English differed only in the scale of use rather than having a unique design. Falchions are now thought to be more slashing weapons for use against unarmoured and gambeson-clad foes rather than inelegant choppers. It would help to be clear on what a heavy/light/hunting crossbow represents given the huge range of variants and mechanisms.

You could add hunting swords (shortswords) and a type of heavy arming sword which doesn't have a proper name yet (Geibig types 10-13) that are bastardsword-sized blades on a dedicated single-handed hilt though by the 1350s they have been superceded for decades by bastardswords after a period of co-existence.

Knyght errant talks about the armour in great depth, though I can cover 12th and 13thC styles if needed. Kites have been out of fashion for a century, replaced by heaters. Pavaises are used but are primarily missile cover rather than melee defenses.

That's the big wall o' text rundown of all the major points off the top of my head. Pretty much any bit of equipment could generate paragraphs of details and specifics though.

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Damn user, I’m impressed - that’s a serious infodump there! I’ll look at the geibig swords to see what sort of fills that niche of a heavy sword as opposed to the bastard sword and such. I didn’t really know that short swords were used as “hunting swords,” so I can definitely add them in.

The recurve bow and saber I had mainly intended to be used by a form of light Calvary that existed might be favored by some of the people residing in the plains. What was standard Calvary weapons at the time?

I’ll check the Knight errant videos, it seems like they provide a lot. Any reason why kites were overtaken by heater shields? An improvement in lower protection perhaps?

I don’t know too much about axe types, so I’d need to see more about what was available before I could elaborate.

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Would Oakeshott XIIa count as an arming sword, or a more two handed thing from around the 12th-13th century? I was thinking of having that and the geibig types as the heavier swords available.

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I can't recall any instances of hunting swords being used in warfare, but it is a weapon that PCs might have access to. They could have a role as the ceremonial killing blow given to disabled megafauna.

Heater shields are lighter and more maneuverable, at a time when increasing armour meant that a large kite shield was not as necessary for protection.

>cavalry weapons
Lances and swords primarily, other weapons could be carried to supplement these. A long bladed arming sword or bastard sword has the reach and downwards heft to be very effective from horseback. A knight could carry both one of those larger swords and a more standard sized arming sword to battle, one on his belt and another attached to the saddle. Maces, daggers, 1 and 2h axes would be the most common other melee weapons but there would be a wide range of more niche options available. Crossbows would be the main ranged weapon if one was used while skirmisher horse in some areas carried javelins.

XIIa is not an arming sword, which is a purely single-handed weapon. It's a bastard sword, favouring one-handed use mounted and 2-handed on foot but there a degree of flexibility there. Possibly examples with extended hilts even for the type could be called longswords but that's outside my focus so maybe not. XIIa is pretty much what happens when you take a blade in the vein of a G13 and lengthen the grip to allow the option of two-handed use.
.

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Have you read any of the other Riddle of Steel successors?

Okay, so I'm thinking of taking out
>recurve bow
>seax
>stilleto
>great / long sword
>broadsword
>saber

And bringing in
>Geibig types 10-13 (heavy 1 handed arming sword)
>Hunting swords (for non-combat / animal encounter)
>Oakeshott XIIa and such to allow for a two handed sword / bastard sword equivalent
>Pavaises for missle cover

My knowledge on axes and crossbows are limited, but for axes I was thinking standard small headed battle axes as well as long bladed axe heads for the beard axe and an even large, crescent bladed axe head like you mentioned earlier as almost a two handed polearm.

Crossbow probably had wooden or horn bows, and used the goat-foot or belt spanner. Possibly a windlass or winch device too? But that may be too late.

The Riddle of Steel successors? No, the only I really heard of was the spiritual successor of Song of Swords, which I kept up with, but they are pushing more renaissance. Do you know of any others or have suggestions?

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Song of Swords is the big one. There's also Blade of the Iron Throne, which is like a direct word for word ripoff at times but does a few things differently, and Swords and Scoundrels which is super different. All three are worth checking out for combat system ideas.

Yeah, I like Song of Swords, but since my setting is (for this campaign) human only, and they have a pretty unified background, it makes the character creation system a little difficult. Not to mention as I said above, they have more of a 16-17th century tech level and stuff it seems, which means I have to cherry pick the items from the master list.

That said I downloaded all their stuff already.
I've heard of Blade of the Iron Throne, but can't seem to find much on it, and that's the first time I heard of Swords and Scoundrels.

This seems like a good place to ask.

What kind of style of helmet is this? (or resembles the most since fantasy writers/artists take artistic liberty a lot?)

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Looks like a close helm perhaps? Though if I remember correctly he takes it off completely like a great helm.

I would say a burgonet with an integrated falling buffe got REALLY drunk, and had sex with an armet BUT during the pregnancy the mother continued to use hard dugs so the child with no surprise had autism and later joined the SCA

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I would try to expand your ranged weapon lists a little. I like how you actually have slings and hopefully they’re useful unlike in DnD...
But ya. Darts, atlatls, etc

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Yeah, I feel like it needs some expanding, but I'm not quite sure what to add to it. I can see a throwing axe, like the francisca or something, but I can't find much info on dart usage post Roman legion, despite seeing them used in RPGs.

falchions are my weaponfu

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>slings
>not useful in D&D
They are free, simple weapons that almost every class is proficient in, and you can apply your Strength modifier to damage, which matters a lot more than die type if you have a high strength. In 5e they might be useless but in 3.5 they were great for fighters who didn't want to deal with having a bow. And with a range increment of 30 feet they shoot farther than a javelin while also taking up less space. So if you don't mind 1 less average damage for not having to worry about range increment on a javelin, slings were great.

In 5e they’re horifically useless. You could just throw a dagger instead and it’s basically the same thing. Only difference I believe was the sling had an extra 10 ft. But not even all classes could use them to begin with. They fucking suck.

In 4e they were ok because of the 1d6 damage dice

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I checked out a lot of the videos, and they're pretty damn helpful! Especially about stuff like brigandine and coat of plates and such.

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deremilitari.org
Full of articles and primary sources.

byzantinemilitary.blogspot.com
The name says all.

greatmingmilitary.blogspot.com
Although it concerns a more advanced age, things like rockets, multiprod ballistas, armours, traps, formations and whatnot are feasible within your premise. The war wagons might be handy against big monsters.

Attached: Codex Martialis - Rules.pdf (PDF, 4.99M)

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You know, I think I have the codex martialis rulebooks from way back in the day! Back as I was transitioning from a d20 dnd system to a d10 system to use in this setting.

Attached: Codex Martialis - Armour and Missile Weapons.pdf (PDF, 5.64M)

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I don't think using human only is that much of a problem. I've run a number of historical games in SoS. Just make everyone automatically pay 1 PCP in Race, and don't let anyone buy anything higher. Nothing breaks without the other races as options.

Cherrypicking weapons and armor is kinda a bitch, though, so I sympathize.

S&S might be your thing, though. It's a bit simpler than SoS but the weapons work on a Build Your Own system. You pick a bunch of traits to represent the weapon you want to be using. I've never played the system so I don't really know how well it works, but it might be easier than compiling an exhaustive list.

Would the early invention and implementation of the toilet quell the firearms industry?

You could probably condense the military axes into:
Handaxe
Broadaxe, 2h but comparatively short as the haft averages 4ft. A burly PC with a 3ft version could use it 1h, particularly while mounted similar to a bastardsword as an optional extra.
Bardiche: catchall for long 2h axes with large blades.

>Crossbow probably had wooden or horn bows, and used the goat-foot or belt spanner
Pretty much. The light crossbow can be hand-spanned but may have stirrups as well, while the heavy needs belthooks or more likely stirrups. Goat-foot as an accessory to speed reloads on heavy crossbows and allow easier mounted use which could be very useful against megafauna. Hand-spanned crossbows are frequently used on horseback. Windlass and cranequin mechanisms only come in later.

>deremilitari.org
Excellent site, it should really help with what troops had which equipment and how they were used in battle.

themedievalhunt.com/
Could be worth a look for how hunts operated, though megafauna would make things very different.

What are the megafauna like in your world, and how have they survived man thus far?

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What

Presumably he meant that the use of flushing toilets would restrict the supply of saltpeter, and so stop the discovery or widespread use of blackpowder.

That would not be the case, but the question isn't quite as non-sequitur as it might seem.

Well honestly I have had to tone down the amount of megafauna, especially the predators, because well the initial volume it wouldn't really be possible for humans to develop civilization or agriculture without being picked off. But currently I have a pretty large list still.

Large Flightless Birds
>Elephant Bird
>Terror Bird
>Gastornis
>Giant Moa

>Argentavis (The only flighted megafauna)

Carnivores
>Andrewsarchus
>Short-faced bear
>Entelodont
>Megalania
>Cave Hyena
>Marsupial Lion

Herbivores
>Aurochs
>Wisent
>Irish Elk
>Dodo
>Bison latifrons
>Hippo

I've had to trim some of it down, and still looking at refining it. Just going from the size of the predators, and the power of the herbivores to try and fight off the carnivores, makes it rather hard for humans to settle and flourish. I figure the establishment of central roads for travel were important, as well as the immediate forming of hunting parties to drive off predators when they appear. There should be ton of folklore surrounding a lot of these animals, and combat / hunting has played a large role in the culture as a result.

Okay, I could probably condense the axes into that list. To clarify, do you mean handaxe like a one handed battle axe, or something smaller like a hatchet?

For the heavy crossbows, do you mean mounted like a fixed position on a wall? As opposed to the hand spanned crossbows being used on mounts.

For the megafauna, I feel like there would a development of hewing spears, hafted chopping weapons like the bardiche and volgue, and heavy crossbows pretty early as a way of dealing with predators of that size.

I have to admit, I have very limited knowledge on early firearms and gunpowder development, so I don't know how flushing toilets would restrict that. Care to elaborate?

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does it make sense for there to be two handed swords in my setting where people wear mostly mail and gambeson, and plate isn't around?
think of it like Tolkien's setting where two handed swords were used but there was no heavy, full plate that people wore.
pic unrelated

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Firearms turn up/where invented in Europe in the 14th century, cannons in the twenties and hand-held guns probably a decade or two later. At that point the nitre bed hadn't been invented, so the saltpeter used had to be mined. With the nearest saltpetre mines being in India, gunpowder was somewhat (though not astronomically) expensive in that period.

The nitre bed was invented in the late 14th century and its use took of around the turn of the century, with predictable results on the gunpowder price despite the rapidly growing demand. I'm not sure how exactly they usually collected urine for them, so heck knows what impact different sewer systems could have had. Though if you do flush your waste, that implies a decent sewer system, and those sewers have to run somewhere, so perhaps you could simply run that to a nitre plant, filtering out the bigger turds for fertilizer while you're at it. Or maybe flushing would dilute it all too much. Urine from livestock works too though, and was used, so there's a source even if we can't rely on humans. And for a fantasy world we could of course also play around with the availability of suitable saltpetre mines, bird colonies and bat caves.

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Japan had a thing for making swords with grips long enough for two hands long before plate armour was a thing (and I don't see mail vs lamellar really campaign any significant difference here), so you could probably get away with it. If justification is needed then a focus on bows and polearms keeps shields form being all that widely used, and as such odds are that anyone wielding a sword won't have much else to do with his left arm, so you may as well make sure most swords of intermediate or bigger size can be two-handed.

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Handaxe as a 1h war axe. Hatchets and other types meant as tools don't make great weapons most of time. Although you could add a small military axe that is basically a hatchet with a blade meant for war. It would be a backup weapon similar to a dagger or long knife.

>Heavy crossbow
Mounted as in on a horse. The advantage of the goat-foot for cavalry is that it lets them use more powerful crossbows than they could hand-span. It being difficult to use stirrup-spanning or belt hooks while riding. Siege crossbows were used but are best thought of as light artillery than grouped with the hand-held crossbows.

A dedicated mounted crossbowman would be more likely to use the heavycrossbow and goat-foot. He's a modern and expensive professional soldier or mercenary. A light hand-spanned weapon would be more likely to be used by light cavalry or kept in a knight's saddlebag just in case.

The big issue, is how widespread is this plumbing? Sanitary infrastructure to the whole be population would be a huge investment, so even if the upper and maybe middle classes in the cities have toilets most of the population would still be using cesspits ripe for harvesting.

The other issue, is that once blackpowder becomes a staple of warfare it is a issue of national security. Rulers had gave writs allowing agents to literally barge into peoples houses and start digging. If toilets ever created a bottleneck there would be measure taken to find solutions.

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early two-handed swords should be reasonable in small number - large pommels, spatulate blade profiles.

like bottom left, or 2nd from top right in this pic.

its when you have the later really pointy types that it becomes inappropriate for a coherent setting without plate.

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Aside from what KM, there are few other things to consider.

The main problem is metallurgy and cost. Creating a large two-handed sword blade in a setting hovering on the border of Early & High Medieval would be difficult and expensive. More so the earlier you go. Although as KM pointed out, something like a nagamaki with an equal amount of handle to blade in total length is a good cheat. Another issue is that a daneaxe type weapon fills much of the same role while being cheaper and easier to produce.

There is European precedent though in the Ancient Thracian Rhomphaia. The Thracians had access to a lot of good quality iron so that would be a key ingredient for the main 2h sword culture. Rare, expensive but very effective.

If your setting is more 12/13thC in style then advances in metallurgy allow the production of blades upto 40", taking a XIIa and extending the grip even further could produce a respectable dedicated 2h sword. Which would end up more or less as an occidental nagamaki.

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in the setting iron is very plentiful and metalworking is good. I just prefer the asethetic of mail shirts and hauberks over full plate, but i also think longswords look good as well.

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Adding a bit here since the other guy who replied did bring it to mind for me, one thing to keep in mind is that all twohanders aren't equal. Hammering out something like a six foot "zweihander" in the 13th century may be a bit of a bother, but that 40 inch blade will be longer than basically all the two handers in the LotR movies and isn't that much short of twohanders like arms-n-armor.com/sword156.html even if we keep the handle to "just" comfortable room for two hands. So it may be longswords or warswords by size, but very much two handers by use (and if you want, weight, though we won't be looking at zweihander style weights). Then again, if we're in a setting with good metallurgy that just hasn't bothered to go for plate (only Europe really went all in for full plate after all) then full sized ones could probably match up to mail without any issues.

The spatulate tips would seem to come form people being fond of cutting-optimised swords there and then, which may not carry over to other settings. Pointier swords aren't far off either, with Oakeshott XIV and XVI types.

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My setting is similar, in that the majority of armor is gambeson, mail, scale, and coat of plates. So large, piercing swords aren't really used, but as said
>If your setting is more 12/13thC in style then advances in metallurgy allow the production of blades upto 40", taking a XIIa and extending the grip even further could produce a respectable dedicated 2h sword.

That's pretty much what I'm doing in regards to larger, two handed swords. They could probably work with mail, and wouldn't be a clearly plate armor designed weapon.

Ahh, I didn't know about all that. I figure that the setting I'm making could have access to a saltpeter mine or such, due to having a mountain range -> desert -> ocean area in the eastern part of the country. Where there and to the north they mine most of the iron, so those local lords are the ones with the proto-guns and the larger two handed swords.

Thanks! I might include a military hatchet of sorts to mix up the dagger / long knife side arm, but I figured you meant a 1H war axe.

And in the lore / culture of the setting, people owe taxes / conscription directly to the king, so most people gave their lands over to lords who are exempt from most of that in order to get out of traveling half the year for conscription (sort of based on Japan's feudal taxation system). But there are freemen who didn't do that, and often worked as mercenaries, serving the king half the year and selling their services to the lords the other half. I figure they'd be the ones with the heavy crossbow, higher quality armor, while a lords militia might be lighter armed.

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Bump

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What kind of swords were used in hunting? I can't seem to find much on short swords in the medieval era, especially those used in hunting.

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Why do all of these include a random handful of coins?

Size comparison and / or local currency for flavor reasons?

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From what I know, they're usually short, straight, thick, and one sided. Kind of cleaver-like. They're not for combat, but for cleaving a neck to finish off a disabled animal.

Huh, I'm not sure I've see ones like that. I can see the reasoning for it, at least. Have any examples / pictures user?

From what I've seen there are two main types. First is the boar-sword, as shown on the right here. Most of the blade is just a bar, with only the tip portion having any edges, and there's usually a bar set straight through the blade just before the sharpened part.

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Second and by far the most common is the hirschfänger, a pretty light, usually single-edged shortsword, sometimes somewhat curved. It stuck around for quite a while and was a very suitable victim for the whims of fashion, so the hilts in particular can vary a good deal. It occasionally shows up in military hands as well, as a sidearm for drummers or such. IIRC the boar sword is a 16th century thing, and the hirschfänger is of the 17th-19th centuries, but my brain's a bit fuzzy at the moment.

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Oh thanks man, that helps me visualize what I’m working with here. And while it might normally show up later, i can definitely see it developing earlier due to the megafauna. Thanks for helping to flesh out the weapon selection of this setting a lot!

Do you know how late stuff like scale and lamellar armor was used? I feel like scale and stuff gradually became the cost of plates and such.

Straight-bladed hunting swords similar to the hirschfänger were used in the Medieval period, but I'm having a hard time finding extant examples. It's true though that various types of hunting sword do become far more common in the Renaissance and after. Still, there's no technical barrier to their use in a 14thC-esque setting and could have a place as a hunting tool, civilian sidearm, and ceremonial item in megafauna hunts.

Sorry for the lack of details, here's a close up of some Viking Age mail. Gorgeous construction that is almost identical to mid1300s mail although the Germans have adopted wedge rivets by that point.

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Most mail was riveted by these points, yeah?

Hey, that’s enough for me to go on, and I can easily see them being used in this setting- you’d probably want to be armed to the teeth hunting megafauna, anyway. What was the alternative to riveted mail? I’ve heard of the 4 in 1, as well as the flattened mail I think? But was it all riveted, or were there linked in and welded shut or something.

Some mail alternates riveted rings and solid ones punched from a plate, but in Europe at least I think all-riveted dominated.

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All Medieval European mail was riveted, either by dome rivets or wedge rivets although those only become widespread in the 1400s. Riveted was the rule with battleworthy mail from it's invention the world over. Except Japan, but that stuff was strange.

Drawing the wire and making the links is the vast majority of the work in creating mail armour. Riveting 1 in 4 links to assemble it is the easy part.

Butted mail makes sense for parade armour and decoration in later eras, or for the modern larper to assemble shop-bought rings with a set of pliers. For something you depend on to stay alive, the saving is minimal compared to the massive decrease in protection.

myarmoury.com/feature_mail.html

4-1 is the standard configuration, 6-1 is one possibility for "double mail" mentioned earlier in the thread. It was probably a heavy tournament armour for the most part but was rarely worn in battle.

Mostly the "4" links were welded, but entirely riveted shirts did appear in the 14thC. I'm not sure what the advantage of that would have been but it was popular from the second half of the century.

File is about Viking Era mail, but the principles of construction hold true for the 1300s as well.

Attached: Ring_Weave_Vegard_Vike_2000_(translated_Ny_Björn_Gustafsson).pdf (PDF, 1.92M)

Alright then for simplicity sake, I just have it so all the mail is riveted. I didn’t know that “6-in-1” was what double mail actually was, that’s pretty interesting. And I’m definitely saving and checking out that file, it seems like it can answer a lot of my questions and give me some solid examples.

>I just have it so all the mail is riveted.
That is by far the easiest option. From a gameplay perspective the differences in all-riveted vs. alternating or dome vs. wedge is minimal or non-existent. Double-mail could be an option but is a bit redundant given the 14thC setting has so many armour options to go over a regular hauberk. Your choice really.

The linked article in the previous post is one of the best overviews for mail and I can't recommend it enough.

Image is of a mid-13thC knight but superbly shows how the mail would be tailored to provide maximum freedom of movement and no wasted weight from a poor and baggy fit.

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That is pretty form fitting, yeah

>Greatmingmiltary
Do you know similar sources but for earlier times? Like Tang or ten kingdoms?