How to explain and make women absolutely equal in a rather low-fantasy setting?

Spamalot
Spamalot

How to explain and make women absolutely equal in a rather low-fantasy setting?

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All urls found in this thread:

youtube.com/watch?v=2vhIWC2Boik
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paraguayan_War#Paraguay_2
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarissa
iwf.net/results/olympic-records/
jiujitsutimes.com/female-mma-fighter-stepping-cage-internet-troll-doesnt-believe-women-can-beat-men/
researchgate.net/publication/283260585_Sexual_Arousal_and_Masculinity-Femininity_of_Women
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Island_with_Bear_Grylls
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taqiya
merriam-webster.com/dictionary/civilization
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shield-maiden

Playboyize
Playboyize

Define low-fantasy.

Deadlyinx
Deadlyinx

What do you mean?

Men do the heavy work, women do the work that requires emotions and fiensse.

Men work as blacksmiths, soldiers, and labormen while women would work as tailors, spies, and scouts.

Each sex has its pros and cons and that's what makes them equal.

A guy might be stronger physically than a woman, but his fat fingers and intimidating figure means he can't sew well and he can't be very persuasive.

Methnerd
Methnerd

Nobody thought about it from the start and when they proposed gender differences it was too late

Snarelure
Snarelure

Never introduce inequality in the first place. It never existed. Explanation done.

TurtleCat
TurtleCat

Perhaps I've been wrong when I said low, it's a darkish cold Fantasy setting, Mages aren't really common but magic is a major part.

CouchChiller
CouchChiller

Just do it. Everything doesn't need a twenty page explanation. If you want girls to be badass fighters too, then *poof*, girls are now badass fighters too.

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Illusionz
Illusionz

Also as for now I'm focusing this on an ultra-religious state that sees fire as holy, obviously that means fire mages are seen as holy (Not sure yet if fire magic is the only available force), you're born with the potential for magic (a 35% chance and you're infertile)

Lunatick
Lunatick

Dangerous as fuck wildlife that never really let humans settle down with agriculture until they learned masonry to build walls to keep them out. Men and women both go out for hunting for food, leather, and organs to make water skins out of. As a result of this the humans of the setting are carnivorous and incapable of getting efficient nutrients from plants.

w8t4u
w8t4u

Dangerous as fuck wildlife is there (pre-historic fauna such as Mammoths and sabretooths) but it's not to the extent of not being able for humankind to develop

lostmypassword
lostmypassword

Make your humans fundamentally different to ours in such a way that females actually have some sort of physiological advantage besides the capacity for pregnancy to offset their inferior strength and endurance

Emberburn
Emberburn

Make mpreg an actual thing with humans and give men all the disadvantages of being fit to go through pregnancy. Alternatively, don't.

FastChef
FastChef

Okay, just have there be agressive wildlife that required more than just the men of the village to take down. Either that or societal factors leading up to women taking up important roles in government.

Illusionz
Illusionz

That's an idea as well, having a female as the only mage in the village while going on hunts is something.

Spazyfool
Spazyfool

Here are a few ideas:

Playable races exhibit no relevant sexual dimorphism.

Playable races can switch their sexes around as required by the situation (this doesn't need to be fast or painless).

A wizard did it.

Methshot
Methshot

The Watch is a tabletop roleplaying game set in a “light fantasy” setting known as The Clanlands. It takes place during a dark and horrific war between the now-united ten clans who live there and an invading force, known only as The Shadow.

The Shadow is a powerful and insidious enemy that is able to enter the minds of its opponents and slowly turn them to its side; twisting them into unnatural foes. For reasons unknown, The Shadow is able to more easily influence the minds of men, and has turned a great deal of the clan’s soldiers against itself.

With most of its fighting force crippled or worse, the clans have joined together and begun enlisting new warriors to defend their homes. Women and non-binary femme people who seem better able to resist The Shadow’s hold have been recruited, trained, promoted, and formed into a new order: The Watch.

In The Watch, you’ll play a group of elite soldiers who are called upon time and time again to defend villages, attack The Shadow’s forces at key locations, scout the enemy’s lines, and much more. Each mission comes with its fair share of costs and compromises and you’ll need to navigate them in order to be ready to heed the next call to action.

It’s in these in-between moments where the rules for The Watch focus themselves: What do you do to unwind from the pressure that threatens to pull you down? Who do you spend what little free time you have with, and why? How will you hold off The Shadow’s influence so that you can see the end of this war? That’s what you’ll have to find out for yourself…

SniperGod
SniperGod

Female warriors are common. They face more risk (i.e. being raped) and aren't as physically strong as male warriors, but there's no stigma against them.

StrangeWizard
StrangeWizard

Make your female fighters rely more on gear and smarts to make up for strength.

whereismyname
whereismyname

equal opportunity rape bruh
youtube.com/watch?v=2vhIWC2Boik

Boy_vs_Girl
Boy_vs_Girl

Game of Normies

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Soft_member
Soft_member

Assuming gods created humanoids, they didn't bother putting in enough sexual dimorphism to make them meaningfully different. Hell don't even make a point to explain it, that'll just draw attention to it. Most people wouldn't give it enough thought to ask "hey why don't girls get -4 str?"

girlDog
girlDog

Just say that female pc's are the exception to the rule in terms of physical strength for women, and if an npc brings this up let it just be as a compliment. Outside of that make sure to show women's work, such as tailoring, child-rearing, bardic arts such as storytelling and cradlesong, cooking for their families and watching over their homes while their husbands are away as actual meaningful work that is worthy of honor. Men and women aren't equal in all fields, but they are equal in value.

SomethingNew
SomethingNew

Strength would only ever come up if they had to wear heavy armor or wield pole-arms. Speed, agility, and skill have always been historically paramount in a fight with weapons.

askme
askme

Playable races
It's not really made for a game so..

massdebater
massdebater

It's a combination of strength and speed, but let's not start this argument again.

likme
likme

can't be very persuasive
What you on fool I met guys who will talk you in circles. The only tool most females have is sexual power but once you disarm they of that they don't have a lot

TreeEater
TreeEater

yes, but speed would be more important

downside to female fighters would be inability to wear a lot of heavy armors without strength building

BlogWobbles
BlogWobbles

It's a fantasy setting. Women only have STR -2 instead of STR -4.

Boy_vs_Girl
Boy_vs_Girl

not for a game
The fuck you're doing in Veeky Forums, user?

In any case: replace "playable races" with "sapient races", then.

girlDog
girlDog

And +2 wis.

haveahappyday
haveahappyday

Why would you do that ?

lostmypassword
lostmypassword

fat fingers and intimidating figure
not everyone is a lard-ass like you

FastChef
FastChef

Veeky Forums is basically my /setting related center/

PurpleCharger
PurpleCharger

Not OP, but the reasons that I'd end up wanting to do it would be for aesthetic reasons and because some of my players would likely want to play female characters also for mostly aesthetic reasons and I don't really want to devote a subplot or something to grappling with those particular societal expectations and prejudices.

girlDog
girlDog

Settings with no humans can be pretty cool

likme
likme

Women as scouts
Clearly spoken as someone who has never seen untamed wilderness in his life.

There's a reason why hunting traditionally was considered a Man's job and it's not just because you might run into dangerous animals every now and then.
Navigating through unmapped terrain is a laborious and dangerous task even if you don't run into enemies.

VisualMaster
VisualMaster

We're talking low fantasy. Make men big, strong and good at fighting and fucking.

Women in exchange will be more dexterous and agile.

It's low-fantasy, not Game of Thrones. You're allowed to bend rules, otherwise all low fantasy settings would have rampant sexism and patriarchal nobles with a woman's only job to be popping out kids.

Nude_Bikergirl
Nude_Bikergirl

Sure, it's fantasy after all. To the opposite of the women in our world, the women in the fantasy setting have common sense, keep their cool instead of being hysteric and aren't subject to mood swings.

Boy_vs_Girl
Boy_vs_Girl

would have rampant sexism and patriarchal nobles with a woman's only job to be popping out kids.
Seems you described all my fantasy settings.

King_Martha
King_Martha

Magic is feminine. Men have to chop their dicks off to reach the highest levels of magic.

Inmate
Inmate

Easiest solution is to simply give equality of opportunity, not equality in outcome.

There are no legal barriers against women doing same things as men, most just prefer not to because the things men have to do generally suck.

Carnalpleasure
Carnalpleasure

by stating you are playing a fantasy and not some neckbeardy grim derp pseudo simulationist bullshit.

Sharpcharm
Sharpcharm

The world is harsh enough that people form pastoral communities where both sexes have to work equally to keep the community going. There's no sexism because every person is needed for labor.

SniperGod
SniperGod

the magic in the setting makes pregnancy trivial

SniperWish
SniperWish

Dexterity and Agility aren't the traits you need.
You need endurance, cunning, good spatial awareness and strength.

You're not going legolas in the woods when scouting, you are trodding through harsh terrain.

VisualMaster
VisualMaster

but his fat fingers and intimidating figure means he can't sew well

You sexist shit. I can sew like a god!

MPmaster
MPmaster

But the other side has more dudes than you, so if given the choice of using one of your men as a scout or putting him in the vanguard you would rather use women who can do the job well enough.

iluvmen
iluvmen

No pregnancy. Instead people build up the "charge" and if two with full charge meet they can create a child (or multiple if they are lucky) through sex. You of course need 2 people with +/- "charges" to create a child.

Skullbone
Skullbone

dont, it just is. You are in a fantasy world, said fantasy world had a slightly diferent history than ours and thus women are not regarded as inferior to men. Bam, done

StonedTime
StonedTime

humans are actually clay golems with identical specs, despite their varied appearances

This explains why human (m) and human (w) show up in every profession in equal amounts. It also explains why you see no human children during the game. They don't exist.

Supergrass
Supergrass

"Good at fucking" is generally a prerequisite for every successful form of life.

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Need_TLC
Need_TLC

rainbow 6 siege, despite being sold as the realistic counterpart of call of duty, has an improbably female cast, approaching 50/50 despite there being not even 10% female special forces members in real life
despite this no one has ever really been bothered

replace modern special forces with dark fantasy, and use the same logic
very few people should complain
women are just as capable of being
badass and tough

girlDog
girlDog

People can shoot fire from their assholes and there are fuckmothering Elves that aren't just a myth but have a city a few miles down the road. I think people will give a lot less of a fuck about the differences between men and women when they have way, way more "other" people to care about.

Evil_kitten
Evil_kitten

Wisdom doesn't mean common sense in D&D. It means perceptiveness, being able to spot bullshit, lies and predators.

Evilember
Evilember

absolutely equal
What's the point then even. Just make asexual humans.

Lord_Tryzalot
Lord_Tryzalot

Considering how important scouting is, you would only use the ones best qualified for the job.

Fried_Sushi
Fried_Sushi

But less important than the actual fight will be.

Bidwell
Bidwell

rule of cool
attempts to explain it often incur in being more cringey than the use itself
but it's unrealistic
yes, but if you and your group don't care it's not a problem

Firespawn
Firespawn

underrated post.

TurtleCat
TurtleCat

Power Armor.

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Gigastrength
Gigastrength

absolutely equal
There wouldn't be men and women then, the species would be asexual. The answer is you can't.

Time for a basic lesson in evolution as we compare humans to lions.
humans are bipedal and have huge brains, causing our babies to be huge, this makes pregnancy extremely difficult and dangerous, the baby has to be passed through the tiny thigh gap
also because we are bipedal, pregnant humans are practically incapacitated compared to pregnant lions
a human has to be pregnant for 9 months, debilitated and at risk of death, in order to have a single offspring
a lion is pregnant for 4 months to have 2 or 3 offspring
infant mortality was very high so the average proto-human female needed to have perhaps 4 or 5 children to grow the population
this means that females spent a massive portion of their fertile life pregnant or nursing
it is far better for the species for females to be adapted toward pregnancy, birth, and nursing, physical strength won't do you much good when you are weighed down by a pregnancy
body dimorphism predictably develops alongside human brain size and bipedalness
psychological dimorphism predictably develops alongside physical dimorphism
Bam, males and females. You can't make them equal without artificial wombs. Why would you want them to be, anyway? Usually people who want female warriors see it as a good thing or as an attractive thing. But being a warrior or adventurer not only sucks, it's gross. They are sweaty, constantly exposed to infection and disease, probably have digestive issues (e.g. Diarrhea) from poor diet and bad water, riddled with bugs and parasites, can be ruined by a single wound, and so on.

TurtleCat
TurtleCat

There wouldn't be men and women then, the species would be asexual. The answer is you can't.
Google "sequential hermaphroditism", user.

Garbage Can Lid
Garbage Can Lid

low-fantasy

Adventures occuring below the waist

Soft_member
Soft_member

women do the work that requires emotions
work
that requires emotions

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WebTool
WebTool

If you do it, don't try to explain it. It is pants-on-head retarded from a worldbuilding perspective. But it can make sense from a game design perspective.

GoogleCat
GoogleCat

Literally just this.

If somebody at your table raises an eyebrow, and you tell them you just want it that way, and they have a problem with it, you didn't want that player in your game anyways.

Booteefool
Booteefool

A bunch of pseudoscience based vaguely on anthropology

This is why evolutionary psychology is such a flawed field of study - you start with the conclusion but work backwards in some random order to find the cause, which then cannot be proven or disproven.

I could just as easily say that females are the baseline for human fitness and males have become larger and stronger as the result of sexual selection. Or maybe external forces of conflicts with other human groups. Or because height and muscle correlates with some genetic immune system adaptation that has yet to be discovered. Any one of which has just as much validity as what you just wrote.

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hairygrape
hairygrape

Women are better at dealing with g-forces

General trends for a population cant be used to judge individuals within it.

CouchChiller
CouchChiller

More important, poor scouting will lose you more battles than a handful of your soldiers being less strong.

An army that doesn't use the best scouts it can is just asking to be ambushed or forced to fight on terrain that has them at a disadvantage.

King_Martha
King_Martha

You forget one very, very big thing.
If a male scout is captured, at least in times of all-out bush war like a lot of games assume, he'll be kicked to the ground, interrogated with a barrel to the back of his head and shot no matter what he says.
If a female scout is caught, it's tied up and right into the core of the enemy camp, where she'll be socializing with randy enemy soldiers and other captives for days.

iluvmen
iluvmen

Let me break this argument down into it's minimalist extreme.

You have two people
Male and female
The male is stronger
One of them is a fighter
The other is a scout
You cannot avoid a fight
Stronger scout + weaker fighter = you lose the fight
Stronger fighter + weaker scout = you win the fight
Your best option is having the stronger person be a fighter

Skullbone
Skullbone

It more often goes like this:
Stronger scout + weaker fighter = you lose the fight, but do some damage
Stronger fighter + weaker scout = you get ambushed and killed without even getting a chance to fight
What you really want is strong scouts and fighters, both.

Emberburn
Emberburn

that's right! Biological determinists are patriarchal nazies.

RumChicken
RumChicken

You can't justify it OP, it isn't going to be realistic and you can't rationalize it away in a way that doesn't fall apart after even a few minutes of honest thought.

But the game doesn't have to be realistic. The best thing to do is to simply ignore it. If you want it, have it. Just ignore the problem. The vast majority of people are not going to be bothered by it as they are already playing fantasy. Besides, most people are so far removed from the realities of physical conflict that they have no honest reference anyhow.

JunkTop
JunkTop

Someone says something I don't like
Let me call them an SJW

BunnyJinx
BunnyJinx

Thats not how it works though.
If we reduce it down it goes like this.
Stronger scout + weaker fighter = you win the fight or don't fight at all due to out manouvering
Stronger fighter + weaker scout = you lose the fight because you get out maneuvered.

Its also not a 1 to 1 thing, an army of thousands is still only going to use a few dozen scouts, having less than 1% of your troops be a little less effective to give you an advantage on a strategic level is a no brainer.

GoogleCat
GoogleCat

fucking shitlord, check your priviledge

askme
askme

And those scouts are typically the most fit of the lot.

Bidwell
Bidwell

u don't

likme
likme

Only the fighter has access to heavy armor and weapons
You need to be strong to wield them
Strong fighter + weak scout = someone has heavy armor
Weak fighter + strong scout = no one has heavy armor

Let me add that the consequences of your fighter being weaker than the enemy (fighter dies) is much worse for you than your scout having slightly less endurance (range is slightly reduced)

Firespawn
Firespawn

Either way, if you are out-scouted and out-manoeuvred, your fighting force might as well not be there, no matter how good they are.

You win wars first by logistics, second by intelligence, and only third by strength.

CouchChiller
CouchChiller

heavy weapons and armor don't do shit when you drop a log on them, ya dingus

Supergrass
Supergrass

Yo biologist here, most people in biology dont accept evolutionary psycholog and consider it a though experiment and not a Field of study. Even my evolution profesor who is as old fashioned as you get dose not use it

Fried_Sushi
Fried_Sushi

If the world is shit enough it could just be pragmatism not to have sexual roles or differences. Everyone is responsible for getting food or defending the tribe/hamlet/family because if not everyone dies. In a grim dirty fantasy world, would a widow with kids let her children starve while she mourn s or would she strap on boots, grab a bow, and tell the eldest boy he's in charge until mommy kills enough food.

Raving_Cute
Raving_Cute

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paraguayan_War#Paraguay_2

After wear with mighty goblin empire, the remaining men are too valuable (and often too crippled) to do any risky job and have to focus all their energy to ensure the survival of the species.

happy_sad
happy_sad

biology is a social construct... change your field to something relevant

Techpill
Techpill

... and non-binary femme people
I’m out.

5mileys
5mileys

You can't since even the precepts of fantasy settings carry the everyday biases of the players and their perceptions into the world, which is why most stories go out of their way to explain the differences of our world and theirs. Otherwise people will just assume their biases in the fantasy world. Which as an example why Drow are always explicitly stated to be matriarchial in FR.

Our societal biases are built on biological differences between men and women. If it was history alone, progressives in their want for change would have been more successful. Biology constrains women by changing them with pregnancy, and by having physical differences from the start. If you want to equal them out from beginning, you need a weapon or a change that levels the playing field from the start. Since males have strength, you need a counter to form a believable narrative. I'd argue low level telepathy, not much more than intuition but something that would give women an edge that doesn't change them physically. At least overtly, and how does that play out in the world etc.

w8t4u
w8t4u

Equality of oportunity SHOULD work both ways; if a man wants to be a weaver and/or dyer, the society should be open to letting him do that, even though that isn't a traditionally male role.
Otherwise, it's just reversed sexism, with the men stuck with all the hard, crappy jobs and the women "cherry picking" the easier male tasks to prove they're "as good as any man!".

Methshot
Methshot

Why do we always talk about strength and not constitution?

The difference in endurance is way more significant to the discussion than the huge difference in strength.

In a fight, someone who tires easily is going to lose fast. They'll be an abysmal scout, they'll be an abysmal soldier. They will lose to people far less skilled and "agile" than them.

Need_TLC
Need_TLC

Strong vs Strong, weak vs weak, each fight comes down to luck.
Strong scout does better and kills weak scout, means strong fighter is outnumbered by, and then loses to, weak fighter/strong scout combination.

farquit
farquit

I think what you're wanting is a sliding scale of being able to sustain physical, high level stuff like being able to rack/huff a kit for 20 to 30 miles without dying like a soldier has to and problems that causes for women compared to men but honestly most people hand wave logistical issues in fantasy settings anyway. Just think about sheer amount of shit characters have but have no place for it, I mean the weight of money alone would be a huge problem in most settings.

I can think of a handful of games that worry about it like Fragged Empire where not only are your goods limited but paying for their upkeep is at the front of the game.

you must be fucking kidding.

Sharpcharm
Sharpcharm

don't microaggress against me you nazi shit. John money proved social constructivism right

Raving_Cute
Raving_Cute

Just have to toss the copper pieces away to avoid back pain.

MPmaster
MPmaster

Microaggression isn't verbable you sealioning redditor fuckstain.

Poker_Star
Poker_Star

rules say they have equal stats, therefore they are equal

anyone complains -> show em the door

Gigastrength
Gigastrength

THATS A MICROAGGRESSION YOU FUCKSTAIN
MODS BAN HIM

Sharpcharm
Sharpcharm

Because the differences between male and female endurance and pain tolerance are too diffuse for applesponges to bite on.
On top of that, from the research we have, it looks like women have the advantage, though of course men tend more towards extremes.
If you think women have low endurance and pain tolerance naturally, and it's not just a cultural factor, try living on the country in Africa or even Eastern Europe for a bit.

Emberfire
Emberfire

bro, a hundred pieces of metal even of small weight would be hard for most people to lug around and people go way beyond that. It would be easy to steal, a pain to carry in something, and irritating every time you bump something and it smashes into you. The every day annoyances of life should prove just how inconvenient something you get as a reward would be.

While obviously you could tie it in a sack and put it outside your armor, you get my point that people that have hundreds of pieces or more would be an issue yet people hand wave all the time.

The question in op's line is most likely cryptobait to talk about stuff and not get the thread deleted.

Flameblow
Flameblow

I don't play DnD. Googling DnD and Wisdom, the first thing that came up was common sense.

Dreamworx
Dreamworx

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massdebater
massdebater

Reign has a fun way of encouraging gender equality.

First, magic is a skill that anyone can learn if properly trained, and it's just as effective as direct combat, so right there that levels the playing field a lot.

Second, and this is more significant, there's a believe that riding a horse astride makes men sterile, so all cavalry are women. When necessary men ride sidesaddle which isn't a very safe or effective way of riding a horse. It's certainly _possible_ for a man to ride a horse normally but there's a cultural stigma against it akin to a man wearing a dress. People think it looks ridiculous and are like "well so much for that guy's kids."

eGremlin
eGremlin

You give them bigger muscles and don't have them bear children.

GoogleCat
GoogleCat

Both men and women will literally die if they don't get laid regularly and it doesn't work if you do it with the same sex or like an animal or inanimate object or something. Oh, and the manner of death is particularly gruesome both physically and mentally. Now the two sexes actually need each other for the one thing they're good for to the other.

I heard the version 1.2 patch is going to remove them entirely due to negative. player feedback.

Nojokur
Nojokur

Because it's cool.

Need_TLC
Need_TLC

So...how does the species continue?

Sir_Gallonhead
Sir_Gallonhead

the strength difference between elite men and women honestly isn't that big if you account for height. women in drug tested weight lifting federations (I know they're not perfect but we really don't have anything better to go off of) are 70-80% as strong as men, it just seems worse because women are usually 5in/13cm shorter than men, so you could make men and women the same average height for your setting
but really the main obstacle in making female fighters believable is the pretty big pregnancy problem. most fantasy handwaves away high infant mortality so you've already helped there, but having kids is still a bit too important to ignore. you could have a shorter gestation period or make twins and triplets the norm, although messing with that stuff might make people think you're inserting your fetishes into the setting

Gigastrength
Gigastrength

It's a challenge, isn't it? It's almost like the reason for gender differences is, like, built into biology.

Unless OP meant female PCs. Then you just handwave it, who cares. Bell curves don't ever hit zero.

Techpill
Techpill

This desu. Technology is the great equalizer.

PackManBrainlure
PackManBrainlure

10%? You're closer to 0% in reality. There are absolutely no women in the Navy SEAL, Delta Force, Alpha, Vympel, Spetsnas GRU, Berkut, Grom, GIGN, French paratrooper and commando units, French Foreign Legion, KSK, GSG-9, SAS, SBS, Ghurkas, AAD10, GIS, COMSUBIN, EKAM, JSDF 1st Airborne Brigade, PASKAL, Unit 777, Golani Brigade, Sayeret Matkal, Unit 669, BOPE, GOE, CORE, etc.

SniperWish
SniperWish

So the species is created by a god engine and sex differences are optional?

Evil_kitten
Evil_kitten

IPL world record raw deadlift for SHW women is only 202kg.

I'm not an IPL SHW, but as a man with only 3 serious years of training (in short, a near-absolute newbie), I can pull 200kg.

For reference, IPL SHW for women is +90kg. The weight class above 90kg for men is 100kg, and their DL record is 327.5 kg.

That's not 80%, that's 60% my dude.

TreeEater
TreeEater

Back to high school statistics class with you.
Didn't you ever think about that you're not measuring women and men as a whole, you're measuring differences between people who practice a specific sport?
Work out the variables involved, because they're mostly social.

PackManBrainlure
PackManBrainlure

Who's got more muscle, Seth Rogan or Dana Linn Bailey?

There are men who are below average, and women who are above average. The fact that there are only a few hundred women in the world who would be considered 'strong' by male standards doesn't mean that women aren't strong.

Even with my powerlifting posting above, keep in mind that pulling 4 and a half plates is not much for a man who's serious about training, but it's an incredible amount for a normie who uses the gym for a treadmill.

BlogWobbles
BlogWobbles

The guy I'm responding to told me to look at those feds. I did.

Furthermore, height differences are going to be not only nullified, but reversed in terms of advantage on the deadlift. Shorter legs means a shorter pull, which means easier lifts, everything else being equal.

He wanted drug tested records, I gave them, and now you're giving me shit because you want to move the goalposts? Classy.

eGremlin
eGremlin

Start with reality and then jump off from there:
early humans divided labour (and danger) between the sexes in order to safe guard the possibility of pregnancy
men hunt, toil, and protect the community
women gather, craft, and protect the young
men provide the foundation of society because they are stronger and cant get pregnant but this constant danger gives them certain social benefits
women provide the auxiliary skills which allow that society to flourish because they can get pregnant and don't run the risk of all of their training being wasted because of a labour related injury/death but as a species generally enrich the position of men within society because of their constant exposure to danger
flash forward x years and the division of labour becomes the division of party roles in which men are typical martial classes (fighter, ranger) and practice more dangerous trades, where as women are typical magical classes (cleric, wizard) and practice complex trades
while not unheard of it is still somewhat uncommon to see people in roles not typically associated with them due to the social connotations of of the institutions behind them (i.e. martial dojos seen a masculine and magical colleges seen as feminine)

Attached: 1513238925912.png (453 KB, 1500x2010)

AwesomeTucker
AwesomeTucker

This.

You do know that the history of a fantasy world isn't the same as the history of our world, right?

Lunatick
Lunatick

The differences between the sexes create different variables on the ground, in the story. Which is the only reason to include them or not include them. Sometimes people change things up just to make story different and give players new things to interact with. Sort of why drow became so popular because it created challenges for players to have to deal with.

Half of the things men are used to doing are gatekeep'd from them by drow women in the setting etc.

So facts on ground, people have to act differently, story comes out differently.

In the end that is the only thing that matters which is why you see so many advice pieces telling DM's to use as much description as possible. You're changing the variables for the players hoping to unlock new things and giving new experiences that neither you nor they have had before.

MPmaster
MPmaster

It's not going to be useful for statistics about anything else than deadlifting unless there are exactly the same amount of men and women, if they're of the same ages, of the same social strata and if they follow the exact same training regimens.
And we all know it's not like that. Deadlifting has about a 9/1 male-to-female ratio, and where the men are usually badly-adjusted kids from poor families who've likely been doing sports since childhood, the most common women who do it are from rich families and looking for agency or independence in their lives.

askme
askme

Absolutely equal? Not likely. Muscle and aggression are both signs of high testosterone, which surprise, can depend on your sex. You can waive these rules but people will side-eye you.
Mostly equal? Have dominant cultures have an emphasis on balance. Whatever rights the father has the mother shares. An eye for an eye. Never turn the other cheek, unless you want a matching bruise.
Basically have nurture triumph over nature, and have nurture stress equality.
Assuming this isn't bait.

hairygrape
hairygrape

Since you do not have a perfect control group, science can't exist? That is not how it works bud.

Illusionz
Illusionz

Average competitors
I'm talking about world record holders, brother. None of them are average.

Stark_Naked
Stark_Naked

You need to explain why equality was introduced

Boy_vs_Girl
Boy_vs_Girl

Don't
as for PCs, say they're rarities

Evil_kitten
Evil_kitten

Men also wove cloth. Women would spin fiber all summer and men would go from town to town weaving the thread into clothing

haveahappyday
haveahappyday

Reign's default setting is a bit higher fantasy than I think you're looking for, but they did it in an interesting way with two rules.
Rule number 1 is that magic is completely egalitarian in who can learn it. You gotta put in time and some people might have natural talent, but in general ability for anyone to learn how to throw lightning bolts levels things out a bit. Addtionally to counteract that, counterspelling is an in-universe mundane skill, to even the playing field further.
The second rule is an in-setting superstition that riding astride on a horse causes impotency in men. The actual veracity of it is specifically left up to the GM, whether or not it's a silly but widespread superstition, a genuine danger inherent to the world, or a curse of a spiteful god, but in any case if anyone wants to have cavalry, that cavalry's going to be all women. Because of that and a couple other in-setting things that warp gender roles away from medieval fantasy (largest empire on the continent started from a big suitor battle where the woman decided "fuck it, literally" and married all of them at once, becoming the first empress) means the setting still has gendered steryotypes and the like, but things are relatively equal. A woman footsoldier might get descriminated against, but that's because she's a footsoldier and not a cavalrywoman, not because she's a woman.

I think it's an interesting take honestly.

Attached: Reign.jpg (78 KB, 220x284)

Techpill
Techpill

there's not as much of a difference between sexes as Veeky Forums likes to think

cultivation > genetics

PackManBrainlure
PackManBrainlure

You shouldn't. Women have not really been entirely equal in any society ever, and even now they still aren't. Player characters are exceptional anyway, if they want to be exceptional in that regard as well, just have them come up with a backstory to justify how they got where they are.

GoogleCat
GoogleCat

confirmed for being an idiot who has never gone out into the wilderness his entire life. kys

Nude_Bikergirl
Nude_Bikergirl

while setting and cultural taboos played on might be a novel way to handle the problem, your own post not only has inaccuracy but runs smack into the problem he is trying to avoid. Cavalrymen get dehorsed in combat, any empire fighting an army of women on horseback are going to focus on tactic that either accomplish that or something similar. Once that happens your army is dead. The greeks/macedonians figured it out thousands of years before medieval ever fucking happened. They slaughtered largest horse army on the planet. Way before mongols ever walked out of the steppe.

A woman foot soldier is going to get descriminated against because the male soldier is looking for an easy win and will single them out to finish battles more quickly so they can live. That is how life works, path of least resistance. Animals will eat anything easy if it guarantees their survival, even through cannibalism.

Any serious thought put into your synopsis/summary of the setting would run straight back into the problem that OP is trying to avoid. better to not bring it up at all than make it about actual combat. Especially combat that has no counterweight.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarissa

SomethingNew
SomethingNew

Oh hey, the incels arrived
Took you a while, usually you are the first to post in the "-4 strength" thread

idontknow
idontknow

Speed is a deciding factor in small skirmishes or one on one situations. Armies require strength and endurance. A woman who can't maintain a forced march, receive a charge, use body mass and shield to brace an advance, and possesses the raw strength to literally throw dead body weight off themselves, will be a hindrance to the rest of the army.

Fuzzy_Logic
Fuzzy_Logic

Nah, this user knows what's up

Good information wins wars. There's a reason that the forces responsible for scouting and forward reconnaissance were traditionally (and usually still are) considered among the elite of armed forces.

Lord_Tryzalot
Lord_Tryzalot

...You know it's not my setting right? It's from an existing game, I just liked the way they handled it.
Besides, it's not like cavalry units are the only armed forces, just that they're predominately female due to superstition. Men still fight, and you don't just send a cavalry unit out on it's own. The point is that it changes the cultural taboo to make men and women roughly equal in terms of societal perception. They're never going to be completely equal in all areas because that's not how life works, and no one can be 100% equal in all things with all other people. Instead it places emphasis on women and men being present in most if not all roles with relative egality, meaning that there isn't a social stigma against say, a woman soldier, or a male nurse. At least at large. As with any setting, there are differences to culture on a local level that mean this whole question is kind of moot since the GM can change it to suit their perogative.

5mileys
5mileys

Your minimalist example assumes a stronger fighter wins a fight, though, which is only a truism if the fight is fair. Part of good generalship is making sure the fight is not fair, and favors your side by as large a margin as possible.

Firespawn
Firespawn

Creation myth shenanigans. Women and men are equal because that's how God made them.

Just don't forget that there are biological and social implications of women being stronger or men being weaker.

Attached: quote-once-made-equal-to-man-woman-becomes-his-superior-socrates-174060.jpg (47 KB, 850x400)

whereismyname
whereismyname

Using a picture of plato's punching bag
Socrates went back willingly to the Athenians to be killed over his belief in his own philosophical ideas

Supergrass
Supergrass

Kill all women except one, then clone her.

Boy_vs_Girl
Boy_vs_Girl

As Pompey's infantry fought, Labienus ordered the Pompeian cavalry on his left flank to attack Caesar's cavalry; as expected they successfully pushed back Caesar's cavalry. Caesar then revealed his hidden fourth line of infantry and surprised Pompey's cavalry charge; Caesar's men were ordered to leap up and use their pila to thrust at Pompey's cavalry instead of throwing them. Pompey's cavalry panicked and suffered hundreds of casualties. After failing to reform, the rest of the cavalry retreated to the hills, leaving the left wing of Pompey's legions exposed. Caesar then ordered in his third line, containing his most battle-hardened veterans. These broke Pompey's left wing troops, who fled the battlefield.

I don't know about you guys, but when facing Caesars army of 22000 I would've preferred to face him with my 44999 strongest and my best scout, rather than my 45000 strongest.

Attached: Battle-of-Pharsalus,-48-BC.png (27 KB, 741x429)

Techpill
Techpill

Why do we always talk about strength and not constitution?
These arguments crop up because some people on here have actually been outdoors and done things that require physical exertion, while others are getting their knowledge of things like "fighting" entirely from action movies. It's pretty easy to tell which is which.

Yeah agreed. Which, setting and tone dependent, can be fine. Logistics can make a game more realistic, but they can also heavily bog it down. Interestingly, in fiction it comes up all the time, even in "high" fantasy. Go re-read the Hobbit for instance. Half the shit that happens to the party has to do with having to dry wet clothes or having a pack animal bolt and losing rations or important supplies.

Personally, how much I implement comes down to the players and the type of game, with my preference probably being to abstract both wealth and upkeep (which, imo, strikes a good balance between simplicity and realism). The biggest thing is actually just having mundane support staff. Once the players are out of their initial few sessions, they've probably got the wealth and status to at least have a squire, and over time having a base of operations with multiple employees to handle the basic upkeep is totally reasonable. For most historical armies, camp personnel was often 1 : 1 with soldiers.

StonedTime
StonedTime

well I should have specified height and weight with weight being what we have to equalize for when looking at statistics
going with iwf records for the 3 bodyweights closest to average (69, 77, 85 for men, 58, 63, 69 for women) iwf.net/results/olympic-records/
the men's average snatch was 2.27x bodyweight, clean and jerk was 2.7x with a 4.9x total
women's average snatch was 1.86x bodyweight, clean and jerk was 2.3x with a 4.18x total
81.9% for snatch, 85.2% for c&j, 85.3% for total
then for ipf I'm lazy so I'll just do totals. 52, 57 and 63 for women and 74, 83 and 93 for men
men total 9.3x and women total 8x. 86% what the men got

eGremlin
eGremlin

OP here
Gathered like 2 possible ideas, but please keep going.
Also, this is not for a game or tabletop just a setting

Fuzzy_Logic
Fuzzy_Logic

there's not as much of a difference between sexes as Veeky Forums likes to think
TBF Veeky Forums does not get out much

askme
askme

Yeah, because that's a totally fair and reasonable comparison.

I don't know about you guys, but when I have a dozen guys I would've preferred the strongest guy to be wearing plate armor and in the enemy's face instead of by himself over on some fucking rocks a mile away.

Bidwell
Bidwell

Do you mean absolutely equal, as in, female warriors are just as common? That's impossible with humans, without magic.

If you mean, socially equal, having political power, etc. then it's very much doable, and there's plenty of societies where this more or less happened in. You can even have a sizable number of female warriors in some societies, but it's never going to be equal to the number of men.

This, but aggression doesn't necessarily imply social dominance. It generally does when there's no pre-existing society and you get "rule of the strong" and such. As you mention, culture and nurture are more important than biology at times.

lostmypassword
lostmypassword

that's true, we humans are more the same than different. There is one critical thing though, pregnancy.

AwesomeTucker
AwesomeTucker

I do not think most on here get how changes in handling pregnancy and the need for it have warped all of human history, from agriculture to cities to everything involved.

The only reason women can have any kind of equality now is we're handling population problems with immigration instead of forcing women to pop out 5 kids per woman. Which has caused all sorts of social problems.

Garbage Can Lid
Garbage Can Lid

What sort of society and tech level? In an agricultural society, there is a tendency towards individual property ownership, polygyny, and male-dominated social structure. Farmers have to actively train their warriors, and men are just better at this. Plus, they tend to have less healthy populations.

With say, pastoral nomads (or hunter-gatherers), things are pretty different.

Also, there are egalitarian/marginally matriarchial agricultural societies, that have done pretty well. But the warriors are always male still.

Booteefool
Booteefool

Women are weaker than men on average, but PCs aren't supposed to be average.

Evil_kitten
Evil_kitten

Magic, there you go

viagrandad
viagrandad

That should still matter though. If a society has views like "women shouldn't be leaving cities/working as warriors/educated", then it's not going to be easy for a female PC to ever get to badass levels, let alone be accepted in society.

cum2soon
cum2soon

PCs
OP's post

Inmate
Inmate

muh hunter gatherers were equal paradises
Stop talking bullshit. even in hunter gatherer tribes men are the dominant ones.

Attached: 0Yo94y8.jpg (979 KB, 2794x2878)

kizzmybutt
kizzmybutt

Society simply evolved so that women are equal. No one brings up when a woman is in a party. There wasn't any one event. It's just how things developed.

FastChef
FastChef

We have low sexual dimorphism compared to animals with extreme and ridiculous levels of dimorphism!
What a unique perspective!

Nojokur
Nojokur

muh hunter gatherers were equal paradises
Did I fucking say that or imply it? I just said that things are different, in regards to how societies develop and the rationale for gender roles and such. Maybe I should have been more clear so as to not trigger people like you.

Also, each society is different, there's quite a lot of variety in how environmental pressures and biological factors are actually expressed in social structure.

Also, nomadic societies express more egalitarianism on average, than hunter-gatherers. Even then yes, most are/were male-dominated, but there's a pretty big range.

Garbage Can Lid
Garbage Can Lid

Difference in strength and physical ability between men and women is two-fold - one, men are naturally stronger than women. Two - this difference gets pushed even further as men are encouraged to exercise and physically improve more than women.

If you have a society where for some reason men are less encouraged to do dangerous tasks and women are more encouraged to exercise, the difference in strength on a curve will become quite small. For example. there could be very few males and society might be really heavily opposed to incest (which would be inevitable after a couple of generations if you start with a really small pool of males), so they try to keep their males out of danger and protect them.

The reason why society evolved like that over the years and women became more disposable and thus more often trained to be warriors can be numerous, for example there can be a disease going around that disproportionately affects male fetuses/infants If it is a war that wiped a bunch of the men out it would be something that is fixed after a generation or two, but you need a continuous process that resulted in the creation of long-term social systems.

Boy_vs_Girl
Boy_vs_Girl

Responding to your own obvious bait because no one else did
Sad, very sad.

happy_sad
happy_sad

there are people who unironically believe this
That modern education sure did it's job well.

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hairygrape
hairygrape

What about my post was bait? I don't think I said anything particularly controversial at all. Also not samefagging.

Attached: nope.png (133 KB, 1920x830)

Poker_Star
Poker_Star

Actually user, when you compare olympic athletes, the difference in strength is even larger compared to an unfit man and woman.

Outside top athletes, looking at averages, the top 10th percentile of women are in the bottom 5th percentile of male strength.

I'm not sure that even in a society that favored lazy fat men and super fit woman that it would be that small. I guess if you cultivated emaciated men.

Techpill
Techpill

Here's your answer OP

Burnblaze
Burnblaze

We are talking a society where women ARE encouraged to train and men ARE NOT. Not BOTH of them being encouraged.

RumChicken
RumChicken

Look at the 2nd sentence, user. I agree, it would take probably a hundred thousand years of evolution away from current to make it true the OP's way though.

Nude_Bikergirl
Nude_Bikergirl

I think you can't read, he pretty CLEARLY addressed that in second AND third SENTENCE.

Bidwell
Bidwell

I don't know, there was a situation recently where a comedian fuckboi said women are weaker than men to the point where he could take on an MMA fighter and issues a challenge. After which he promptly got his ass beat. Obviously a trained man would defeat a trained woman, but if your role in society is usually not combat-oriented you are not likely to be able to beat someone whose is, even if statistically you are supposed to have strength advantage.

jiujitsutimes.com/female-mma-fighter-stepping-cage-internet-troll-doesnt-believe-women-can-beat-men/

She was a good sport about it, at least. Said he was in good shape but she is more experienced, didnt rub it in or go for gurrl power BS after the win.

WebTool
WebTool

the only major difference which causes basically all social differences is that pregnancy takes up 9 months and then childcare a couple years after that. if you remove that (eg. all sapient races just lay eggs in a "lay and forget" mode), women will be similar badasses.

StonedTime
StonedTime

That's fighting skill, not strength and endurance. It's a different topic. In a battle with weapons and armor or in a fight for survival the difference in fighting endurance especially is magnified a lot.

Also, not gonna say anything bad about her, she's not the type for "gurrl power" she has actively said there is no way she could beat a pro man.

GoogleCat
GoogleCat

So OP could
1. Make his women lay eggs and the men take care of them
or
2. Make men also able to be pregnant.

Dreamworx
Dreamworx

Well yes, but I was talking about a society which actively encourages women to be the sex that trains and fights, and encourages men to stay safe. So fighting skill would be a factor there too.

Boy_vs_Girl
Boy_vs_Girl

This. Men build muscle well, it's not just 'base' strength.

Why would a shortage of men persist after a generation? What sort of situation would even result in that? I agree that the end result would be as you say, but the situation is just really far-fetched.

Childcare is only an issue in nuclear families. In plenty of societies, children are reared collectively. Pregnancy is the main factor.

girlDog
girlDog

or have men be born less often which would turn the societal dynamic around. Instead of women need protecting for societal growth to occur, it would be men. Even if men are stronger. Seed is seed.

haveahappyday
haveahappyday

It's much more plausible that way, although if you look at OP's "absolute equality" it still wouldn't work out.

Inmate
Inmate

The latter was why I was suggesting sequential hermaphroditism. People can just change their sex based on their (and their society's) needs. Not even always voluntarily. Too many adult men in a settlement? Some start changing into women until there's roughly an equal amount. Too many adult women? Some start changing into men.

eGremlin
eGremlin

humans as amphibians?

girlDog
girlDog

Why would a shortage of men persist after a generation? What sort of situation would even result in that? I agree that the end result would be as you say, but the situation is just really far-fetched.
I already explained that in the post you quoted

This was my original suggestion

Well no, you can not have a perfect egalitarian society if you do not have a high-enough tech levels to offset biological differences. You would need to either introduce a handicap for the stronger group, or make it so that they evolved in a different way to us and are equals by default. I was just looking at not yet suggested solutions.

5mileys
5mileys

Side step the issue and make ALL sentient inhabitants of the world futa, while all other aspects of the game are as low-fantasy as you'd like them to be.

It's the best possible solution.

hairygrape
hairygrape

Fap before posting you degenerate

Poker_Star
Poker_Star

/d/-lite, get in the timeout corner.

Gigastrength
Gigastrength

Yeah, because that's a totally fair and reasonable comparison.
Yeah it is, glad you agree

DeathDog
DeathDog

Attached: (you).png (82 KB, 359x317)

FastChef
FastChef

And clown fish, actually a lot of aquatic animals.

CodeBuns
CodeBuns

mongolians were egalitarian
HAHAHAH

Stupidasole
Stupidasole

Sexual dimorphism problems are all solved if there's no sexual dimorphism, since everyone is hermaphroditic. There's no justification involved and no arguments with MRAs and other sundry shit if there's no defined male and female division. It is the solution requiring the least stretching of reality by simply bypassing reality in the first place.

That's not /d/, that's basic logic.

Stark_Naked
Stark_Naked

Either this, for realism

Or this, for player enjoyment. If they have any further issues then they're the sort of person who will never be satisfied and you ought to boot them.

Spamalot
Spamalot

Least stretching of reality
Everyone is herms

Why not just make everyone neko's while you're at it.

happy_sad
happy_sad

Do you fap to futa?

Deadlyinx
Deadlyinx

OP said low fantasy. Nekos would be high fantasy.

Carnalpleasure
Carnalpleasure

They weren't, what's your point? They aren't the only steppe civilization. Again, never said that nomads were egalitarian, just that they were "more egalitarian on average". I never implied that there was ever an "egalitarian" society, especially in the vein of OP.
And Mongols were more egalitarian than the settled people they neighbored (Persians, Chinese).

Emberfire
Emberfire

oh but everyone having being herms is reasonable and realistic. Right.

SniperWish
SniperWish

Who doesn't? As a bi chick, futa are the best. Tits pussy and cock all in one package.

They aren't appropriate for low fantasy, though.

VisualMaster
VisualMaster

Just as reasonable and realistic as women being physically equal to men.

Crazy_Nice
Crazy_Nice

Touche user.

viagrandad
viagrandad

Only faggots like cock.
Studies show women are only gay or bi but never straight, though, so a lot of women should be into futa.

researchgate.net/publication/283260585_Sexual_Arousal_and_Masculinity-Femininity_of_Women

takes2long
takes2long

As a bi chick(male)

Inmate
Inmate

Who doesn't?
Lots of people

lostmypassword
lostmypassword

You can't. Nothing is ever equal unless it is also the same.

Methnerd
Methnerd

that doesn't work, if genetics are present in the world. it's not a coincidence that most animals breed 50-50 males and females. look it up on youtube or your choice of educational site. basically it's an advantage to promote your sex and the 50-50 equilibrium will set up really fast.

Burnblaze
Burnblaze

True dat

TalkBomber
TalkBomber

Perhaps in the setting men could have fragile egos and at the very mention of "equality" they waste their time talking amongst themselves to no end about how their dick swings; meanwhile the women focus on accomplishing tangible things.

BinaryMan
BinaryMan

meanwhile the women focus on accomplishing tangible things.
I know it's fantasy, but it's nice to try to root the setting in some kind of realism

BunnyJinx
BunnyJinx

Attached: 1418118507403.jpg (89 KB, 651x720)

New_Cliche
New_Cliche

that only occurs because some macguffin hasn't been introduced as to why it occurs. I'm not talking about a natural situation, just a reasoning why it could and then go with that. The other user used disease as a possibility but it wouldn't take much. You can argue ad infinitum about any possibility, he just needs something reasonable to cover his bases that is different from the usual examples is my guess so he can plop it into his game or story.

Lunatick
Lunatick

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Island_with_Bear_Grylls

cheeky minx.

King_Martha
King_Martha

You can have a low male population due to a variety of reasons that does not involve their rate of birth. For example a deadly disease that develops in male genitalia so 50% of males just drop dead before reaching puberty.

5mileys
5mileys

You don't.

Burnblaze
Burnblaze

mongols
civilisation
Yeah, youre an idiot.

TechHater
TechHater

Grandpa, what paper thin skin you have!

FastChef
FastChef

Are you just going to nitpick on a single word, or do you disagree with the content of what I'm saying?
Also what's with the equating steppe people with Mongols?

hairygrape
hairygrape

Society never developed gender-orientated occupations since the Hunting-Gathering tribal era; this makes any gender apt to any job at any given time, because there was never a distinction.

Deadlyinx
Deadlyinx

They have equal stats, and they live in a society without any sort of gender bias.

It's not hard dude.

LuckyDusty
LuckyDusty

low fantasy
Calls for creation of teletubbieland

JunkTop
JunkTop

Remember that free will does not exist (you said its a low-fantasy setting, so metaphysical concepts such as it shouldn't exist) and any adaptations made that led to the equality of men and women were a result of their environment. The entire universe works on the principle of cause-and-effect, as do our brains - our "choices" are a result of impulses that were predetermined to occur in this exact patters based on the environment we are in and the interactions we have had. Work from there, think of the history of your world and where humans come from as a whole.

Lunatick
Lunatick

Women are retarded by design. In my entire life (and I have traveled all over the world) I have not met a single woman with 1/10th of my intellect or body strength. What's even the purpose of trying to do that? If you do that they wont even be women any more. They are designed to be meek, simple, and subservient. Stop trying ot turn women into men.

Garbage Can Lid
Garbage Can Lid

You just do, and you don't worry about it, and if someone at the table starts bitching about -4 Strength, you just tell them to shut up and play the damn game.

Boy_vs_Girl
Boy_vs_Girl

Low Fantasy just means there isn't much magic dude. You're bringing a lot of baggage into this.

Playboyize
Playboyize

t. Manlet jealous of the gender who matters more nowadays

Enjoy being disposable.

Gigastrength
Gigastrength

make npc females just like real ones, let pc females be special

BlogWobbles
BlogWobbles

the gender who matters more
when Islam is taking over
Good luck with that.

GoogleCat
GoogleCat

i suppose pregnancy doesnt exist either

Stupidasole
Stupidasole

implying it isn't an invasion of transsexual communist prostitutes pretending to be brown to sully the good name of islam and enact their atheist red-state all across europe
Fucking really?

Garbage Can Lid
Garbage Can Lid

of the gender who matters more nowadays
They have always mattered more.

cum2soon
cum2soon

nowadays
Women always matter more. For a society to be successful you need men to be disposable and ready to sacrifice themselves.

askme
askme

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taqiya

viagrandad
viagrandad

Don't play with neck breads faggot bait

Carnalpleasure
Carnalpleasure

You seem to think mongols were a civilisation, which they weren't.

Flameblow
Flameblow

oh tell us oh wise one, what were the mongols

Boy_vs_Girl
Boy_vs_Girl

Well to clear things up, I don't. That word was used once, and should have been replaced with "steppe peoples" or "steppe societies".

I'm fully aware of the definition of "civilization", but you have to realize that the word is thrown around quite a bit. Scythians and such are often called a "civilization" when they aren't. I'm not saying this is a good thing, but simply explaining to you, that sometimes people can make mistakes in phrasing.

With that out of the way, do you have any points besides nitpicking on a single word? OP's question didn't specify that it had to be a "civilization".

Gigastrength
Gigastrength

Make them men with tits. That's really your only option to overcome how incompetent women are.

BunnyJinx
BunnyJinx

are you sure?
merriam-webster.com/dictionary/civilization

StrangeWizard
StrangeWizard

OP technically didn't even specify "human."

Harmless_Venom
Harmless_Venom

Right, which is why people ITT are discussing non-humans too.

Nude_Bikergirl
Nude_Bikergirl

This is the most pantsu on heads retarded suggestion I've seen so far. The "dangerous as fuck wildlife" would NECESSITATE that men go and do the hunting while women stay safe behind the barriers, because women are inherently more important than men to the survival of the species. 1 man can produce a nigh-unlimited number of babies per year, while 1 woman can only produce 1. the only way you can make men and women equal is for conception and birth be instantaneous, like the way it is in Kingdom Death, so that one woman and one man can poop out as many babies as they want/need

Methnerd
Methnerd

How do I fit the square peg into the round hole

Dreamworx
Dreamworx

Why would you even want to? Sameness and absolute equality is absolutely boring.

Nude_Bikergirl
Nude_Bikergirl

How do I fit the square peg into the round hole
Rape.

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Inmate
Inmate

They weren't a civilisation.
There is no proof that steppe peoples were more "equal" than other societies.
civilisation generally implies cities, roads, high level of social stratification, etc. The mongols had none of that. gtfo

Stupidasole
Stupidasole

Yet others insist on bringing up specifically human attributes.

hairygrape
hairygrape

But COMMUNIST tadiya tho.

WebTool
WebTool

Survival of the fittest

Techpill
Techpill

Don't use humans

Fuzzy_Logic
Fuzzy_Logic

Everybody is born a woman, but slowly develops into becoming male as they age, typically occurring between the ages of 25-30 depending on the person.

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Raving_Cute
Raving_Cute

generally implies
but doesnt always imply.

w8t4u
w8t4u

herm pitch 2.0

Skullbone
Skullbone

Anyone worth playing with wouldn't care for an explanation

SniperWish
SniperWish

this

eGremlin
eGremlin

Veeky Forums thread has multiple conversations at once
what a surprise

There is no proof that steppe peoples were more "equal" than other societies.
They were definitely less socially stratified (if you want to argue this, you're just retarded). There's plenty of reasons for steppe people to be more gender-egalitarian, and while I wouldn't call it "proof", there's plenty of evidence. What's so hard to believe about this? And why the hostility?

Attached: gender-in-the-steppe.pdf (5.12 MB, PDF)

Stupidasole
Stupidasole

Why would you want someone you can call your equal? It's boring!
REAL MEN(tm) prefer taking care of overgrown children who are barely continent

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SomethingNew
SomethingNew

This. It's a fantasy game. Just make equality part of your setting's human race.

Fried_Sushi
Fried_Sushi

Underrated post

Stark_Naked
Stark_Naked

women
emotions
finesse

Dude, they're nearly useless at anything, even parenting. Just look up how many criminals were raised only by mother.

Harmless_Venom
Harmless_Venom

Not knowing how to ™

Otaku you are not little grasshopper

Evil_kitten
Evil_kitten

Women aren't equal IRL. Why would they be in a campaign? Women are physically and mentally weaker than men, but not useless. They have their place; put them into it.

SomethingNew
SomethingNew

fantasy games aren't meant to be fun or fantastical

Here's your (you), don't spend it all in one place.

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takes2long
takes2long

Exactly! OP could use Barsoomians instead. They lie eggs.

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BlogWobbles
BlogWobbles

You're arguing in favor of my point, not against it you fucking nigger. You want fantasy games to be fun, yet the user I replied to said that everyone being equally competent is NOT fun.

Next time, try reading before you start frothing at the mouth because someone implied something remotely negative about your precious vagina owners.

MPmaster
MPmaster

Women have a better aptitude with magic. They make good dedicated magic users and can use it to bridge the strength gap in melee combat. I think this is a good and simple solution because it adds an interesting difference between the sexes and it makes sense because magic is the liberal arts of combat.
Old men in robes and pointy hats still remain the supreme wizards though.

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happy_sad
happy_sad

I can't tell if you're just pretending to be retarded or if you really are that stupid. I hope the former, but you never know.

likme
likme

Just to add to the conversation, its kind of ridiculous to assume women can't do hard physical labor. The idea that a women's main job is stay at home and look after the kids is a Victorian invention, and an upper class Victorian invention at that. Lower class women have always worked, and keeping a pre-modern household involved a lot of backbreaking labor in of its self. In certain times and places in western and central Europe, women where responsible for planting and harvesting crops, while their husbands seasonal migrated for labor.

Early modern peasants would laugh at the idea that women are weak.

Fuzzy_Logic
Fuzzy_Logic

Early modern peasants would laugh at the idea that women are weak.

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Evil_kitten
Evil_kitten

Speed is indeed more important, and speed comes from strength. The stronger you are, the faster you can swing the same weapon that a weaker guy is wielding. Speed is not a separate stat in real life outside of sprinting. If you're just standing there swinging a sword, with equal training, the stronger one will also be faster.

Fried_Sushi
Fried_Sushi

well you are way overgeneralizing, but I get your point
when people today think of traditional women they think of dainty aubrey hepburn in a dress in front of the oven
when in reality traditional women would be out in the field at harvest time and milking the cows and tending to the chickens

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viagrandad
viagrandad

But what about large, imposing, strong women and small, lithe, frail men? I’ve met plenty of both and I’m a bit of a manlet myself(130lbs sopping wet and 5’11’’, small hands with thin fingers). Sex differences are really more of broad strokes that have lots and lots of exceptions. Individuals have their own strengths and weaknesses, but clearly biological sex has little to do with defining them. Even with that being the reality of our own world, a fantasy world could have humans with even less differences between the sexes.

Then again your post is probably bait.

Emberfire
Emberfire

Noice

hairygrape
hairygrape

Like your argument isnt entirely incorrect but youre still full of shit.
women as scouts
Which is exactly why on average men are better with maps and terrain orientation.

men have fat fingers
They dont.
mans intimidating figure is a con when it comes to persuation
Now you are being straight up retarded.

Sharpcharm
Sharpcharm

the absolute state of US universities

BlogWobbles
BlogWobbles

fat fingers
Never seen a male pianist or violinist, huh?

can't be very persuasive
Yeah that must be why men get raises and promotions faster, right?

You've fallen into the video game-y trap of applying "balance" to real life and assuming that anyone with lots of points in strength is a bumbling, idiotic brick.

VisualMaster
VisualMaster

when in reality traditional women would be out in the field at harvest time and milking the cows and tending to the chickens
None of this requires large amounts of physical strength or endurance. Actually, children can do all this just as well.
If you want some real examples of women doing physical labor, do search something about the cases where women (or children. Because it's the fucking same in terms of their work capabilities) had to work in a mine. You never guess, they are dying like flies out there. Well, more than men do, anyway. You have to be completely braindead to use women for actual physical labor when men are available. The only examples of this in the human history you will find happened due to desperation, and no one participating was happy about it.

Raving_Cute
Raving_Cute

Chief deity is a woman/massively favors women

Harmless_Venom
Harmless_Venom

small, lithe, frail men?

Those die out when there aren't all those liberal-imposed rules to protect them from being killed off by us alpha's, or when women are given a genuine choice between a real man and a cuck-worthy beta male. Ideally, all non alpha's would be forcibly feminized into free home labor and stress relief.

PurpleCharger
PurpleCharger

lol

whereismyname
whereismyname

Now hold on there, what in the fuck do you mean "harvesting doesnt require strenght and endurance"? Have you actually been to a farm? Worked the fucking scythe? My distant aunt is like 60 and she is from our more modern age and yet she is probably still much stronger that I will ever be. Actual working people from rural areas are rugged af.

Firespawn
Firespawn

Look for inspiration in historical cultures where men and women were relatively equal, such as the norse and the spartans. In the case of the former, society wasn't really urbanized at least, not by the standards of the time, so women had to know how to fight and do most of the "men's work" out of necessity. Hence, why shield maidens were a thing.

In the case of the Spartans, it was a case of extreme pragmatism. They believed that strong women gave birth to strong men, therefore, it behooved them to ensure that their women were comparably capable to their men in the arts of war. It's also why the city could have almost their entire male population (not including slaves and such) march to war, because the women were more than capable of defending the city.

Other reasons you could use in a fantasy setting would be to feature a matriarchal society, or have a religion which features gender equality as a fundamental tenet.

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BlogWobbles
BlogWobbles

there's not as much of a difference between sexes as Veeky Forums likes to think
o rly ? That's strange, because even if we're just talking about mental differences there's a shitton of them, and I'm not even talking about societal ones
T. doctorate in marketing and management

w8t4u
w8t4u

Judging by all these replies this was a bait of excellent quality

PackManBrainlure
PackManBrainlure

Just give them bows that they draw with a pinch grip because bows are wimpy am I right?

farquit
farquit

For a fantasy setting, have it be some external factor that negates the need/social norms to regenerate certain tasks by gender. This could be a harsh environment, a persistent external enemy, religious movement, or magic. The views of the one culture could then have spread to the others nearby causing then to adopt it as well.

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RumChicken
RumChicken

Keep talking.

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kizzmybutt
kizzmybutt

Sorry, but maybe your familiar farmers are just happened to be particularly healthy.
Usually, when you come to some agrarian shithole, you won't find it filled with beefy Apollos - just skinny uglies with broken bodies. The work in the field CAN help you become healthy, but it under no circumstances guarantees that you WILL become healthy by doing it. Actually, in most cases, it fucks up your back pretty hard and does nothing for your arms. People wouldn't have the need to invent athletics if one can just get ripped by standing on his knees and pulling grass from the dirt.
And I am forced to ask you a similar question - have you actually worked in a farm? Most of the time you will have to do mundane, boring, exhausting work every day (while suffering from pests and heat) and not lift wood logs or swing scythe, or whatever else you think your aunt does for living.

Sharpcharm
Sharpcharm

Im a lazy slob who drinks beer with my droogies and does MMA for fun 3 days a week, there is a grill who gone pro trains all the time and even does farm. We are in same weight division. I beat her 4/5 times in sparrings.
Guy in same weight division who would have same amount of dedication like her would wipe floor with me 100/100 times.

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haveahappyday
haveahappyday

Each sex has its pros and cons and that's what makes them equal.

I dont think thats the definition of equal

Methshot
Methshot

he hasn't heard about relational equality and non-dominance as a ruling normative principle of morally legitimate power relations within virtuous forms of communal life.
What a throughoutly cheap-ass kind of a cultural Marxist are you?

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Crazy_Nice
Crazy_Nice

In a duel, give a man no armour and a woman full plate. When they bind the woman will still be utterly overpowered and killed. Fighting isn't just about "giving people better and better equipment to make up for a lack of strength, whatever that actually means. You can't make up for a lack of basic natural strength and endurance in combat, hence why women weren't rank and file pikemen, archers, or even crossbowmen or musketeers.

The difference between men and woman physically is far, FAR too great for them to ever be equal outside of modern combat, where modern guns are the ultimate equalizer. And even in modern combat, they're still far below the standards of men, because it's fucking demanding.

viagrandad
viagrandad

fag whos watched an episode of vikings actually thinks shield maidens existed.
You're a fucking idiot. In "viking" society, women hardly ever fought. Women only fought in extreme situations, such as if they were defending their home from invaders and the men were already dead.

The Term "Shieldmaiden" derives from when women, who waited at the back of the battle to give shields to warriors whose shields had broken already. This is described by Tacitus.

In Norse society, women NEVER fought in battle when they had the option not to. Stop getting your knowledge of history from television shows, retard.

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Spazyfool
Spazyfool

"Viking" society is a myth anyway. Sick of it.

I've never watched that show, and I never intend to seeing as how blatantly historically inaccurate and cliched it is, and how much it does to reinforce myths. Oh yeah VIKINGS definitely ran around in leather bondage gear my man

Techpill
Techpill

Women make excellent choices for cavalry officers and naval personnel for noble families, as they are less intensely required to develop personal strength. They have reasonable martial prowess due to military training, and nobody in a low-fantasy world is fighting off more than a couple of determined attackers anyway.

DeathDog
DeathDog

You don't have to explain it, it simply is.

A good response.

kizzmybutt
kizzmybutt

women are people too.

/thread.

Techpill
Techpill

Women make excellent choices for cavalry officers and naval personnel for noble families, as they are less intensely required to develop personal strength

You know military officers start their careers either as enlisted grunts, or as what are essentially commissioned grunts, right? You don't just join the military as a commissioned officer then bypass all the physical shit just because you bought your way in. There are still strict physical fitness requirements unless your military is a shitshow.

They have reasonable martial prowess due to military training

An officer prior to the 20th century seeks out their own combat training if they want to be proficient in combat. Officers were not really trained to fight.

and nobody in a low-fantasy world is fighting off more than a couple of determined attackers anyway.

There are numerous historical accounts of soldiers, from grunts to officers, being singled out and heavily outnumbered by the enemy, sometimes going up against 10+ individuals and coming out on top by killing/incapacitating them all, escaping, or holding them at bay until help arrives. Fighting manuals existed for this exact kind of thing, because it was a thing that happened fairly regularly.

Illusionz
Illusionz

So in other you are 12 years old, rarely go outside, and the only woman you know is your mom

w8t4u
w8t4u

Individuals have their own strengths and weaknesses, but clearly biological sex has little to do with defining them
Yeah that's why we don't segregate sports across gender lines right?

Deadlyinx
Deadlyinx

the only way this would come to pass is if there were tens of thousands of years of completely no need for humans to do anything physical.

The difference between males and females comes from a very simple mechanism. Wombs are the bottleneck for tribe population, so womb-men are more important. This leads to the non womb men doing the risky things, the stronger more capable ones succeed, the others die.

In an environment where such things were not required, where humans never had to do anything risky, males would be as weak as females.

You could do this through magic or high technology. Or alternatively enslaving or manipulating another race to take your risks for you

Burnblaze
Burnblaze

t. someone useless

eGremlin
eGremlin

If we are talking bout martial side of society then:
If man have combat strength of 2 and woman of 1 then total combat strength of society is 3.
So male only conscription gives you fighting force of 2 while if other side conscript women they will have bigger and so stronger fighting force.

Of course universal conscription is bad in long war but war should be as short term and decisive as you can get so conscripting women could be profitable in long run as for greater short term casualties you avoid even bigger casualties in next 10 years by ending war in one season.

If we are talking about equality in other fields then it is cultural norm not biological one so you can came up with any social idea to why. For example men are due to some reason viewed as aggressive and reckless so important matters like land inheritance are left to women that tends to be more passive and less likely to lost it in risky deal.

StrangeWizard
StrangeWizard

"Nation X sent its gloriously progressive gender equal army to attack nation Y's equally gloriously progressive army and they inflicted 90% casualty rates upon each other. Both nations now have severe population shortages.
"Why didn't Nation Y send an all male army? Then they'd be able to rebuild their population much faster?"
"REEEE SHUT UP FUCKING MISOGYNIST"

Face it, vast swathes of 'muh gender roles' are just common sense based on biological functions. If you're so vehemently deadset on perfect equality you're going to have to handwave away pregnancy and a whole load of other things that are extremely common phenomena even in modern society.
You're not allowed to have any instance of a woman seducing a horny man with her feminine wiles when it obviously wouldn't work the other way around (good luck trying to explain to the 'beautiful rogue' player why they can't fool a drunken guard with a flutter of her eyelashes).
And even if you get rid of all of that in-game, you're still going to have to convince your players to roleplay properly and treat men exactly the same as women.

Except they won't, I've seen it myself as a GM. They'll coddle the pretty wimmins. They'll sacrifice men to save them. They'll be all depressed and uppity when the 8th Waifu Cavalry unit gets their guts hacked out by a platoon of ogres, screaming for their parents all the while. They'll show mercy to the female BBEG when a male BBEG gets instantly executed.
The 'Just pretend it doesn't exist' approach doesn't work, and is hopelessly naive. Because it does exist. And even if you change an enormous number of things in-game (to the point where you're barely even working with humans anymore), you're still not going to change your player's attitudes.

Crazy_Nice
Crazy_Nice

Imagine being her cloaca slave

Evil_kitten
Evil_kitten

In the modern day, yes. In history, officers were nobility and attained their rank through birth. The training, as you later note, is by expectation of rank and the vital need to not suck in order to not die. I'm not going to stick my cock into the hornet's nest that is the biological argument, except to say that women make perfectly reasonable horse riders, and could do most of the horse-bourne officer stuff perfectly well. I have no idea whether peak compares to peak, or any of the other issues.
Depending on the exact time period, your odds would change 10-on-1 but I think we can both agree that you wouldn't bet on the 1 in that combat, would you? Ten men met one fairly often in martial history, as you note. Ten men LOST very very rarely.

Sharpcharm
Sharpcharm

Very easily
'Genetics don't work the same in this world'
There, done. Trivially easy if the world happens to also contain magic, so it'd be a stretch to say things like chemistry and biology somehow mysteriously work exactly the same on earth.

haveahappyday
haveahappyday

Byzantine historian John Skylitzes records that women fought in battle when Sviatoslav I of Kiev attacked the Byzantines in Bulgaria in 971.
When the Varangians (not to be confused with the Byzantine Varangian Guard) had suffered a devastating defeat in the Siege of Dorostolon, the victors were stunned at discovering armed women among the fallen warriors.
Saxo Grammaticus reported that shieldmaidens fought on the side of the Danes at the Battle of Brávellir in the year 750
Maybe spend five minutes of research before posting, moron.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shield-maiden

haveahappyday
haveahappyday

Most likely desire to keep things simple, neat, inoffensive. Desire to steer away from pointless and undesirable political interpretations of your work.
At ABSOLUTE worst, you might argue that it's kinda lazy and even potentially cowardly (e.g. you don't want to give additional complexity to your settings, you are afraid of offending people), but honestly: I don't think there is anything wrong with wanting to keep things simple and non-offensive. Not everyone has to be some kind of fucking political activist either way - in fact most people shouldn't.

I don't see anything wrong with it in principle (though I would not do it personally) as long as you aren't a cunt about it. I'm a pretty strict conservative, I think strong division of gender roles is generally speaking objectively the better choice, even for our society, but I think the absolutely most important thing is to CALM THE FUCK DOWN AND STOP FREAKING OUT over it all the time.

kizzmybutt
kizzmybutt

It wasn't uncommon for women to take over a man's buisness in parts of the world if he was to ever die just because households couldn't afford to have someone sit on their laurels just because they're the wrong sex.

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TechHater
TechHater

I think strong division of gender roles is generally speaking objectively the better choice, even for our society
Well I’m strictly liberal and I think that’s objectively evil.

JunkTop
JunkTop

You are an idiot then. Pretty easily provable, actually. It LITERALLY demands rejection of all modern empirical science as well as basic common sense and logic.

But then again, in less insane era than today, world would need people like you just as it needs people like me. If the conflict wasn't so escalated and driven into such absurd levels, people like you, creating counterpart to people like me, would be necessary and useful to make sure the balance does never switch too far in favor of pathological extreme: just as I would be useful to prevent people like you fucking us over by not being able to judge healthy measure of things.

Sadly, today people completely missed the fucking point of the whole exercise of having left and right (liberal/conservative) counter positions, and now everything is getting fucked royally.

PackManBrainlure
PackManBrainlure

This is described by Tacitus.

Is this the same guy whose rape fetish still defines early British history?

5mileys
5mileys

gender ration 2:1 with strong sisterhood culture

likme
likme

Shield maidens did exist, and their counterpart can be seen across dozens of cultures.
However, it's unlikely that their role was anything but ceremonial and symbolic: they existed to represent some point or ideal, but they weren't employed because it would be a sound military strategy. In fact, their main POINT was their oddity: the fact that they stood out from what was considered normal is why they work, as a form of cultural institution.

Methnerd
Methnerd

lol

BinaryMan
BinaryMan

I dont even know where to start between you not actually having reading comprehension skills, suddenly shifting from strenght and endurance to HEALTH or that you think that farmers look like holodomor victims. But to answer your question, yes i have.

Skullbone
Skullbone

Veeky Forums
wilderness

FastChef
FastChef

magic is for females only

Raving_Cute
Raving_Cute

men have boobs
women have dicks

MPmaster
MPmaster

a few rare cases of women fighting
that means all women fought and muh feminist viking utopia is true!!!
kys modernist. There's a reason why the victors were stunned at seeing armed women, it's because the WEREN'T COMMON
Tacitus, the roman who wrote about the Germanic women staying behind the battle lines and pushing men to fight harder
obviously. sure, a women might have fought, but it would have been extremely rare.

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Techpill
Techpill

women do the work that requires emotions and fiensse
women would work as scouts
his fat fingers and intimidating figure means he can't sew well and he can't be very persuasive

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StonedTime
StonedTime

all these shit tier answers that boil down to “just don’t think about it” or “genetics don’t work lol”

First of all OP you should have specified what you meant by equal. If you menant socially, a religious mandate would be a really strong justification.

BlogWobbles
BlogWobbles

no ss
what a cruel world to live in

Carnalpleasure
Carnalpleasure

How would a female Jesus do as this mandate? For purposes of argument, an actual messiah with real powers, who was a woman, and died WAY back in the setting's history to protect mankind from a threat or balance a huge debt of sin or suchlike.

Ignoramus
Ignoramus

130lbs sopping wet and 5’11
How in the hell user? I'm 5'7 and 157 and the doc says I'm underwieght.

Gigastrength
Gigastrength

How in the hell
Doesn't eat much and/or has a fast metabolism, probably. I'm taller and weigh less than him. There's no shortage of skeletons here.

Dreamworx
Dreamworx

130lbs sopping wet and 5’11’’, small hands with thin fingers
And statistically you're still stronger than most women. And when I say "most" I mean 90%.

Evilember
Evilember

I have a muscular illness and I'm still effortlessly stronger than practically every woman I've ever met. women are weak, man

Poker_Star
Poker_Star

I'm replying because there were so many replies.

Never change teeg, never change.

Nojokur
Nojokur

No they aren't.

/Thread

Evilember
Evilember

t. not people

/Thread

idontknow
idontknow

... Intimidating figure means he can't see
He doesn't threaten his clothes to mend themselves

Playboyize
Playboyize

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LuckyDusty
LuckyDusty

Let me put this super-thin veneer of Veeky Forums stuff over blatant /pol/posting
And then you animals wonder why everyone hates you

likme
likme

Just call him an applesponge and move on

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