Orientalism -- a wide-ranging term originally used to encompass depictions of Middle Eastern, South Asian, and East Asian cultures -- has gradually come to represent a more negative term. Should Dungeons & Dragons, known for two well-received books titled "Oriental Adventures," have another edition dedicated to "Eastern" cultures?
A Brief History of Orientalism For a time, orientalism was a term used by art historians and literary scholars to group "Eastern" cultures together. That changed in 1978 with Edward Said's Orientalism, which argued that treatment of these cultures conflated peoples, times, and places into a narrative of incident and adventure in an exotic land.
It's easy to see why this approach might appeal to role-playing games. Orientalism is one lens to view a non-European culture within the game's context. We previously discussed how "othering" can create a mishmash of cultures, and it can apply to orientalism as well. The challenge is in how to portray a culture with nuance, and often one large region isn't enough to do the topic justice. The concept even applies to the idea of the "East" and the "Orient," which turns all of the Asian regions into one mono-culture. Wikipedia explains the term in that context:
The imperial conquest of "non–white" countries was intellectually justified with the fetishization of the Eastern world, which was effected with cultural generalizations that divided the peoples of the world into the artificial, binary-relationship of "The Eastern World and The Western World", the dichotomy which identified, designated, and subordinated the peoples of the Orient as the Other—as the non–European Self.
Game designers -- who were often admitted fans of Asian cultures -- sought to introduce a new kind of fantasy into traditional Western tropes. Viewed through a modern lens, their approach would likely be different today.
The original Oriental Adventures was published in 1985 by co-creator of D&D Gary Gygax, David "Zeb" Cook and François Marcela-Froideval. It introduced the ninja, kensai, wu-jen, and shukenja as well as new takes on the barbarian and monk. It was also the first supplement to introduce non-weapn proficiencies, the precursor to D&D's skill system. The book was well-received, and was envisioned by Gygax as an opportunity to reinvigorate the line -- ambitions which collapsed when he left the company. The book's hardcover had the following text printed on the back:
…The mysterious and exotic Orient, land of spices and warlords, has at last opened her gates to the West.
Aaron Trammell provides a detailed analysis of how problematic this one line of text is. The sum of his argument:
Although Gary Gygax envisioned a campaign setting that brought a multicultural dimension to Dungeons & Dragons, the reality is that by lumping together Chinese, Japanese, Korean, Mongolian, Philippine, and “Southeast Asian” lore he and co-authors David “Zeb” Cook and Francois Marcela-Froideval actually developed a campaign setting that reinforced western culture’s already racist understanding of the “Orient.”
The next edition would shift the setting from Kara-Tur (which was later sent in the Forgotten Realms) to Rokugan from the Legend of the Five Rings role-playing game. Controversy of the Five Rings James Wyatt wrote the revised Oriental Adventures for Third Edition D&D, published by Wizards of the Coast in 2001. It was updated to 3.5 in Dragon Magazine #318.
Ethan Sanchez
Yes. Anyone who disagrees is a SJW. Sage.
Nolan Jackson
Legend of the Five Rings, a franchise that extends to card games, is itself not immune to controversy. Quintin Smith got enough comments on his review of the Legend of the Five Rings card game that he included an appendix that looked critically at chanting phrases "banzai!" at conventions and some of the game's art:
Now, I have no idea if this is right or wrong, but I do know that chanting in Japanese at an event exclusively attended by white men and women made me feel a tiny bit weird. My usual headcheck for this is “How would I feel if I brought a Japanese-English friend to the event?” and my answer is “Even more weird.” Personally, I found the game’s cover art to be a little more questionable. I think it’s fantastic to have a fantasy world that draws on Asian conventions instead of Western ones. But in a game that almost exclusively depicts Asian men and women, don’t then put white people on the cover! It’s such a lovely piece of art. I just wish she looked a little bit less like a cosplayer.
Perhaps in response to this criticism, Fantasy Flight Games removed the "banzai" chant as a bullet point from its web site. The page also features several pictures of past tournament winners, which provides some context as to who was shouting the chant.
By the time the Fifth Edition of D&D was published, the game's approach to diverse peoples had changed. Indigo Boock on GeekGirlCon explains how:
Diversity is strength. The strongest adventuring party is the most diverse adventuring party. Try thinking about it in terms of classes—you have your healers, fighters, and magic users. Same goes for diversity. Different outlooks on life create more mobility and openness for different situations. Jeremy also explained that it was crucial that the art also reflected diversity, as did Art Director Kate Erwin. With this, they tried to make sure that there was a 50/50 split of people who identify as male and people who identify as female in the illustrations.
Jacob Davis
Trammell points out how these changes are reflected in the art of the core rule books:
First, there are illustrations: an East Asian warlock, a female samurai, an Arabian princess, an Arab warrior, and a Moor in battle, to name a few. Then, there are mechanics: the Monk persists as a class replete with a spiritual connection to another world via the “ki” mechanic. Scimitars and blowguns are commonly available as weapons, and elephants are available for purchase as mounts for only 200 gold. Although all of these mechanics are presented with an earnest multiculturalist ethic of appreciation, this ethic often surreptitiously produces a problematic and fictitious exotic, Oriental figure. At this point, given the embrace of multiculturalism by the franchise, it seems that the system is designed to embrace the construction of Orientalist fictional worlds where the Orient and Occident mix, mingle, and wage war.
A good first step is to understand the nuances of a region by exploring more than one culture there. Sean "S.M." Hill's "The Journey to..." series is a great place to start, particularly "Romance of the Three Kingdoms."
D&D has come a long way, but it still has some work to do if it plans to reflect the diversity of its modern player base and their cultures...which is why it seems unlikely we'll get another Oriental Adventures title.
Dylan Green
Veeky Forums, the forum where we critique other forum posts Anyone who doesn't sage in this thread is a troll
Nathaniel Rivera
>Diversity is strength. The strongest adventuring party is the most diverse adventuring party. HAHAHAHAHA NO.
You could replace all this racist shit from Oriental to European and it would be the exact same, fucking niggers
Hunter Peterson
I don't even have to read but a few sentences of this to know you're an sjw fuckwad who doesn't even play the god damn game. Fuck off back to Marxistville, Frankfurt schooler.
Jaxson Murphy
>Diversity is strength Are all people equally important and valid? If yes, diversity adds nothing because being different changes nothing about the value added to the game and so is pointless. If no, why are you a disingenuous piece of shit?
Daniel Rodriguez
Are you aware OP just copied his posts from an article and is not presenting them as his own words?
Joseph Moore
I don't care. I'm tired of lying snake shills trying to 'diversify' (aka ruin the fuck out of) every fucking thing.
Christian Murphy
Yes, because the pulpy aspect of it is still exciting.
Adrian Jackson
>that looked critically at chanting phrases "banzai!" This actually pissed me off a lot at the time. You know who didn't look at it critically? Actual Japanese people. Angry racist Chinese and Koreans did criticize it, but if you take their opinion as anything other than the rants of racists then you are actually lumping all the Asians together. Japan fucking loves "cultural appropriation". They take all sorts of cool shit from all sorts of other cultures and then disrespect the shit out of it to make their own media. Hell, that kimono exhibit that got taken down was actually defended (Vehemently, in some cases) by ethnic Japanese, while the critics were all white. Frankly, I find the entire mindset to be incredibly racist. The poor dirty savages don't need big strong whitey to protect them. They can speak for themselves like adults who deserve respect.
Aaron Torres
>Orientalism -- a wide-ranging term originally used to encompass depictions of Middle Eastern, South Asian, and East Asian cultures -- has gradually come to represent a more negative term.
... no it hasn't?
Tyler Davis
It has to some people who would never qualify as Oriental or any variation thereof.
James Nelson
See the face of the enemy, Veeky Forums. You might be upset by their words, but you need to learn their arguments to effectively tear them down.
The culture war depends on you.
Jack Stewart
Eat my nuts
Connor Wilson
Orientalism are tales of wonder from the East, where magic is possible and shit. It's not "hurr durr othering" because any good setting includes a fucking mishmash of cultures. Hell, fucking Moana included a fucking mishmash of cultures. This is simply complaining for the sake of complaining. Look at this pic. It's pretty much Celtic Christian Mongols against greek AngloFrench Knights and shit. And it's fucking great. Asian Americans, not even once. t. Chinese friends don't really give a fuck, but when they westernize they go full muh culture. The funniest part is that people who are proud of their culture and actually know about it feel okay with this unless they try to represent exclussively their culture in a crappy hollywood way. And let's be honest, if the Greeks, Celts and the Egyptians aren't fucking raging at the west for absolutely raping their mythology why should the others be speshul?
Aka virtue signaling flat out fags who need to go drown to death in a vat of soy latte.
Connor Ortiz
Your board has been back for a while
Owen Peterson
Anything to get someone who isn't politically correct away from your shill thread, shitberg?
Wow you must be getting desperate. Rabbi refuse to let you molest children today?
Luke Parker
I've heard so many anecdotes of Chinese-Americans who hate American Chinese food with a burning passion, while their immigrant Chinese parents find it interesting and often like it.
Angel Robinson
I'm telling you to go because you're an unfunny shitposter who has nothing of worth to say but decides to open his mouth anyway
Carson Lewis
You do understand that D&D was always a multicultural thing, right? Why do you think there are so many variants of so many races?
D&D was multicultural in the actual sense of the word, numerous cultures sharing the same world, not in the (((multicultural))) sense of absolutely no whites allowed except mudsharks and maybe not even them.
Asher Fisher
I'm not OP, nor do I really agree with him
Also, stop using this (((unfunny))) /pol/ "meme"
Anthony Jackson
>particularly "Romance of the Three Kingdoms." trash.
Samuel Diaz
No, it's retarded and makes you look like a redditor
Jackson Thompson
So yes, it does trigger you then, (((user))).
Grayson Turner
I wouldn't even go that far, I and most of my friends are Asian American and the only time cultural appropriation even matters to us is when it's hugely and unironically racist.
Hunter Thomas
I guess? I'm not offended by it, if that's what you're asking. I just think it's annoying
Kayden Watson
>hugely and unironically racist
So when you decide you're a racist and you don't like white people, cultural appropriation suddenly matters to you?
Fuck out of here ching chong bing bong.
Liam Turner
>D&D isn't inclusive enough, every setting is Occidental >Make setting book for classes and cultures that reflect the Orient >D&D is problematic for its Orientalism
Remember: you can't ever satisfy the people that WotC is trying to pander to.
Seeing Jews behind literally everything has to be a torturous existence. You Jewed yourself, user
Robert Phillips
Watch some motherfucker say
>"but /pol/ is the real problem is tabletop games! Muh horseshow"
Fucking retards.
Ethan Moore
Trying to obfuscate the fact that they demonstrably ARE behind at least some of the problems in society?
Isaac Thomas
I don't think /pol/ is the real problem, I just wish you faggots would leave so sane people can discuss the problem as reasonable adults
Brayden Richardson
Nope, just need Yoon-Suin.
Aaron White
>here's an article about obvious left wing identity politics from people in the tabletop literati/industry >yeah, but it's /pol/s fault that we can't complain about it
Whatever you say
Christian Price
The problem is that even if people reasonable disagree with OP's article, we're called /pol/ as well, so what you really mean is 'Shut up and don't dissent.'
I've never even gone to /pol/ and I hold pretty centrist liberal views, but this shit is getting out of hand in society in general, not just in tabletops, etc.
Gavin Cruz
My disagreement with the article is very reasonable; it doesn't need this change because it is already a multicultural society, it has many races and many variants of races already existing and sharing the same worlds.
Lincoln Ross
People are oversensative because 9 times out of 10 /pol/kiddies come in and use the thread as an excuse to show off their latest forced memes
I honestly don't think that Veeky Forums is a very good place for this type of discussion, simply because there isn't much penalty for shitposting
Ian Fisher
So you don't like Veeky Forums because people are allowed to disagree with you? Jesus where are you from, reddit?
Aiden Smith
>I honestly don't think that Veeky Forums is a very good place for this type of discussion, simply because there isn't much penalty for shitposting
Ah yes. rpg.net might be more your speed.
Jaxon Cooper
No, I don't like that people aren't civil or smart about it.
Ian Perez
The real Greeks, Celts, and Egyptians have been dead for centuries
Austin Taylor
Orientalism is awesome. Yes, it's fantasy "Orient" and not the reality, but that's a desirable feature. Our gaming worlds are also a fantasy, after all.
In what way is; 'the setting is multicultural already and does not need this change' uncivil or stupid?
Jason Barnes
This is shitposting, you do realise?
Mason Robinson
I'm not talking about that, I'm talking about this
Henry Powell
So you're mad because I trolled you with words you didn't have to read or even respond to?
no one is making you post here (or are they? be honest op, it's okay if you're a brown child in a soros funded shitpost sweatshop).
Ryder James
I'm not mad, I'm frustrated. I shouldn't have to accommodate retards
Liam Turner
holy shit this, so much this
Alexander Carter
>Although Gary Gygax envisioned a campaign setting that brought a multicultural dimension to Dungeons & Dragons, the reality is that by lumping together Chinese, Japanese, Korean, Mongolian, Philippine, and “Southeast Asian” lore he and co-authors David “Zeb” Cook and Francois Marcela-Froideval actually developed a campaign setting that reinforced western culture’s already racist understanding of the “Orient.”
The problem with this idea is that western games do not treat *western* cultures with nuance in the first place. It's demanding special treatment for foreign cultures. It's expecting a cartoon world with a cartoon depiction of Western history to somehow pivot to serious historicity when looking at the East. So the average D&D campaign is a weird mish-mash of paladins (medieval France), druids (ancient Britain), rangers (medieval Britain), barbarians (pagan Scandinavia), clerics (Christian-style priests worshipping pagan-style gods) and so on. All presented as magic cartoon versions of the historical reality, because that's what people want from their high fantasy campaigns. So an eastern campaign setting is likewise a "best-hits" version of Asia with all the iconic stuff people enjoy, turned up to 11 and infused with fantasy and magic. There's a famous saying "the past is a foreign country", which in this case is very true. People treat their own history with exactly the same exoticism as they treat the history of other countries, and somehow this equality gets mistaken for discrimination.
Just because someone makes a post does not mean that you need to reply to it.
Noah Jenkins
Again, in what way is the central thrust of my argument against your article retarded?
The setting is multicultural ALREADY, it doesn't need this change.
Cameron Rogers
Please read a book >Since the publication of Edward Said's Orientalism in 1978, much academic discourse has begun to use the term "Orientalism" to refer to a general patronizing Western attitude towards Middle Eastern, Asian and North African societies. In Said's analysis, the West essentializes these societies as static and undeveloped—thereby fabricating a view of Oriental culture that can be studied, depicted, and reproduced. Implicit in this fabrication, writes Said, is the idea that Western society is developed, rational, flexible, and superior.
That's a book written by someone who would never qualify as Oriental or any variation thereof. Being patronizing towards non-whites is not a virtue. They don't need you.
Jonathan Morris
The argument about orientalism and how games have addressed it in the past, and how they could address it in the future, is very interesting. The problem with this article, however, is that it pretty clearly comes from someone who read the wiki page instead of actually reading Said, and the quotes he brings up are the worst kind of SJW bullshit.
Nolan Rogers
>Edward Said >white So THIS is the power of American education
Ayden Sanders
>edward >not white
Levi Davis
>how can Jackie Chan be Asian if his name is Jackie
Adam Murphy
>Edward Said
You mean the guy who pretended that the Ottoman Empire didn't exist so he could argue that the Middle East had been helpless against European aggression since 1400? The guy who attacked people in the Orientalist departments at universities in spite of them being against imperialism and colonialism because he wanted a convenient target? The guy who couldn't accurately map the spread of Islam in his book talking about how other people didn't understand the history of the Middle East? The guy who used "but I grew up in Palestine" as a way to try and play himself off as an expert in the area when he spent most of his time living a cushy life outside of the actual poverty and issues people faced?
Yeah, fuck that guy.
Bentley Jackson
>People are oversensative because 9 times out of 10 /pol/kiddies come in and use the thread as an excuse to show off their latest forced memes When that happens, just reply with "Fuck off, applesponge".
Robert Howard
Said is an Arab name, you fucking moron
Julian Kelly
I'd prefer properly fleshed out semi-historical settings like what we had in AD&D. Ancient Greece, Rome, Charlemagne, and so on, and then do specific areas/time periods out of Asia.
But this would require WotC to release more splats and not make them about Forgotten Realms.
Asher Jackson
Good point. I'll stop taking their bait
Asher Williams
The 2e historical stuff is quite nice for that.
Leo Price
Edward Said is from the Middle East, grew up in Cairo.
What irks me about this is that he liked to fall back on talking about himself as if he grew up in Palestine.
Gabriel Foster
>applesponge Unrelated to the argument at hand, can you explain this insult to me?
I know "soyboy" comes from the misconception that soy lowers testosterone - whatever my thoughts on the matter, I get it at least. What's the deal with "applesponge"?
He was born in Jerusalem and spent parts of his childhood there
Evan King
>Hell, that kimono exhibit that got taken down was actually defended (Vehemently, in some cases) by ethnic Japanese, while the critics were all white. This. The postmodernists have been shitting over genuine attempts to make a better society for too long.
Mason Garcia
It's making fun of how stupid soyboy sounds
Ryder Murphy
It's a nonsense word that /pol/tards hate being called because it means you're refusing to engage them in political arguments on Veeky Forums and just calling them a silly name instead.
Thomas Hill
It's more or less 'Something that sounds as stupid as soyboy'.
Colton Jones
His father moved to Cairo when Said was young and when someone investigated this and pointed out that the evidence pointed towards him growing up in Cairo before going to the US, Said went apeshit and said that the other guy didn't understand Arabic culture and was just trying to belittle him, in spite that Weiner pointed out that the records don't show that the house Said claim's to have grown up in belonged to his dad.
Grayson Lee
Well I for one sure am glad that many of our brothers and sisters are doing their part to keep white culture white.
Are you arguing that the cultures who created those mythologies still exist today?
Sebastian Rivera
It really makes you wonder how much time these people spend around people from Asian countries in general.
Xavier Murphy
the transgender jewish reptilian illuminati communists who put soy in my precious bodily fluids
Dylan Brooks
Ah Thanks, that makes sense, though it's a little disappointing.
I did think it might be something to do with either right-wing techbros (apple) or NEETs (sponge), like you're a NEET that bums off your male/apple-user/muh capitalist ideology... could at least be creative about these things, rather than "your word is DUMB". I mean, the fact that it uses blatantly incorrect science should be enough ammo for that sort of thing (though refusing to deign to engage is an argument, of sorts)
Zachary Parker
That would actually be really clever
Parker Cox
Orientalism works for anything beyond the Iron Curtain, and arguably even for some places on this side.
Colton Gonzalez
This. Japan don't give two fucks about this stuff, unless you depict them as evil (like Avatar: The Last Airbender did) or stop others from experiencing how cool they are (like the people who shut down the kimono exhibit did).
Hell, some of the "all Asians are interchangeable and inscrutable" stuff actually comes from propaganda that Japan put out in order to justify conquering Asia. They *love* Orientalism.
Gavin Cook
It actually just started when somebody who had never heard "soyboy" before commented on what a retarded term it was.
Apparently quite a few people on Veeky Forums are sick of /pol/tards constantly spamming other boards so it's a useful way to shut them up. Telling them that soy doesn't work like that just invites further shitposting, but replying with a simple "fuck off applesponge" is pretty effective.
You must think you were clever and profound, if you screencapped yourself and try to promote your own dumb meme.
Caleb Green
Shut up applesponge
Lucas Brown
>Remember: you can't ever satisfy the people that WotC is trying to pander to.
Truth!
David Gomez
Fuck off applesponge
Christian Peterson
I miss the days when games were actually played instead of over analyzed and politicized by a bunch of faggots who will never even make the attempt to play them
Daniel Hughes
Be honest. When was the last time anyone used one of these? It's all about the western dragons, and always will be.
