/osrg/ OSR General

Why does he have a pompadour on his head.

Why does he have a mountain on his head.

Funny - the ones I've been in tend to railroad the party out of deaths, keeping us alive no matter what we did.

Tomb of the Serpent Kings is a good adventure though.

It's not, but that's not what the post is getting at.

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I've read through a lot of the various ways that OSR games deal with stealth, including the web.fisher article one user very kindly provided me in another thread. Problem is, I find it hard to believe that different creatures are all the same difficulty to sneak up on. Same with characters. If your Wisdom is 13 versus if it is 17, you still have the same chance to be caught by surprise.

At the same time, I also like the way ACKS handles "skills." I don't like the proficiency rules much, but I do like how it's all rolled into one. And I've also got this pair of criteria for when a skill check should be rolled in an RPG:
>when the result is contentious or important in some way
>when the result cannot be determined through application of player skill
Persuasion succeeds at the first test but fails at the second, for example. And a lot of perception checks fail the first test as well as the second. Checking for a secret door containing treasure... now, that's interesting. If you handle it solely with player skill, then they either have to look in the right place, or if they say "I look for secret doors" they just find them, and are encouraged to spam "I look for secret doors" in every 5' square of the dungeon (and yes they would probably fall in a trap doing that but my point is that it slows down play.)

So with stealth checks, I have the issue of (1) it doesn't take the listener's skill into account, when it really should, and (2) giving one class a skill implies that other classes can't do it. I figured the granularity of a d20 roll would allow me to construct something a bit like ACKS does with skills: A basic Stealth check succeeds on a 15+. If you are wearing chain, maybe it succeeds on a 16+. In plate? An 18+. And then a rogue would have either different numbers, or a bonus (or maybe they'd have different threshold with the armor giving a penalty to the roll). Dex modifier would also be applied as well... maybe that is too much.

idk what to do

I know but I felt the need to add that comment anyway.
What is bad about ToSK?

It's hard to sneak up on a Bugbear.
Rangers are good at sneaking up on dudes.

Stealth doesn't really take listener's skill into account for one simple reason: with a successful stealth check, the thief won't make any noise at all. You can have as good hearing as you like, but you're still not going to hear something that simply isn't there.

And I like that. But I'd like to make it a more unified mechanic / rule to include all stealth / move silently.
I don't mind the idea that "if you want to hide / move silently, you say you are doing that, and you do it" except armor IS noisy and people ARE noisy and it shouldn't succeed 100% of the time. And if rogues do it with one rule and other characters do it another, things can get difficult.

I do want to avoid anything resembling a unified skill check mechanic, though, because that opens a gateway to places I don't want to go. But at the same time I want a consistent set of rules I can use, when common sense doesn't apply (moving silently is actually more important than hiding in this case, since hiding is based on positioning).

>it shouldn't succeed 100% of the time

That's why you have a 1 in 6 chance they'll be heard. Bump it up a notch if you've got keen-eared elves.

The lessons are udan-adan.blogspot.com/2018/03/rpg-books-as-fiction.html at best and masturbatory at worst. They don't inform running the room and won't come up in play.
The general lack of direction for DMs.
I get that it's what he was going for, but floors 1 and 2 are dull.
The Cobra and Basilisk being wow-check-it-out BOSS FIGHT!! script script script sucks. The Basilisk is a nice hazard though.
Hardpoints to add more dungeon are also nice, but advertising VotE at the Chasm is ...ehh.

>with a successful stealth check, the thief won't make any noise at all.
But that's pretty much physically impossible. And different levels of hearing DO exist in real life. I have heard someone approach that a friend did not and vice-versa, IRL. They are a rare case of skill checks that make sense.

Maybe I am overthinking it, and a large part of it *might* have to do with the fact that I am hoping to introduce OSR to my Pathfinder group soon, and the way stealth works is going to be a major "flaw" in my "argument"

>But that's pretty much physically impossible

Now you're starting to get it! Hide in Shadows, Move Silently, Climb Sheer Surfaces...

>But that's pretty much physically impossible.
Indeed it is.

When your fighter and mage try to sneak, they do the thing you speak about, with the different levels of hearing and what have you. The fighter is likely to make more noise due to his heavier equipment and metal armor. It's still entirely possible they'll surprise someone, if they're clever about it: try to wear suitable clothes, watch where they're stepping into, and time it well. The GM may give penalties to the enemy surprise roll if they do a good job, or bonuses if the enemy has a high wisdom.

But when a thief successfully rolls stealth, he passes all that on and enters the realm of minor impossibilities: he's so good at sneaking then that he really won't make any sound.

That's one reason why he's got such poor odds at stealth on low levels, by the way. It's not there to discourage you from trying to sneak around, or make you think that it's about this one roll that's likely to fail anyway and then you make a whole lot of noise. Instead think of it as another layer on top of the ordinary stealth, something that comes to play if you, as a player, didn't think of something: a sort of a sneaky saving throw, if you will.

Tell your group that there will be much less rolling done on the whole than in Pathfinder. It's not just about rolling for stealth and leaving at that - no, they'll want to tell you HOW they sneak, and what precautions they take, the whole hog. You're going to do a bunch of roleplay even in this.

Really depends on how you want to address summoning creatures.

But, what if the dm takes a pile of commons, a smaller pile of uncommons, a few rares and I guess a couple mythics if you want to do that sort of shit, from a block that's thematically appropriate to their game. Sort them by casting cost, probably pull out a lot of the creatures.

Spell level equals converted mana cost. Draw cards from those cmc/level at character creation and as the magic user learns new spells.

Sort out how the spell works via RULEINGS or RULES depending on how you like it. IMO better to lay out things like range, duration, dmg, etc. from the get go and deal with ambiguities and alternative uses as they come up.

Use moral as situational awareness. Might have to set different levels for various undead and weird creatures.

Those both sound like things it would be hard to sneak past.

I can see sneaking past a zombie being explained as easy, but past intelligent undead like a vampire much more difficult.

But the 50% base modified by HD could work. Further adjusted as says
>It's not just about rolling for stealth and leaving at that - no, they'll want to tell you HOW they sneak, and what precautions they take, the whole hog.

Players explain how they're sneaking, you have a roll to mess with, make the call for modifiers, what anyone doing special sneaking is up to, etc.

Again, I'm not sure what you're playing at. It doesn't help that I've had a migraine and just woke up.
>This is based 1e not OD&D
>50% of demons and devils have no psionics
>going mad from looking at demons is not a rule (except for specific demons)

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An intelligent vampire may not need to use sound at all to detect your presence. He could probably smell a blood spatter on your cloak instead, which would immediately tip one off to someone being nearby.

In cases like those, the vampire still can't hear you, but he still has a chance of detecting you.

They eat because they remember the Lean Times. A halfling is incredibly calorically dense. They can survive off water and dust for months. They won't like it, but they can. They live in tunnels. They are immune to ideological warfare and demagogues.
They're basically the Viet Cong, but bucolic.
Don't test them. Better armies than you have tried.
I kind of did, I thought?
coinsandscrolls.blogspot.ca/2018/03/osr-der0-encounters.html
It's getting there! Sales have slowed a lot. I'm still waiting on the print proof (feckin' postal service).
I mean, I disagree with these points, but I appreciate that they are well made and coherent. It's useful feedback to have.
I have no idea.

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AD&D psionics is near a direct port of D&D psionics, it's worth discussing.

The MM predates published psionics revisions, so intentions are unclear.
By D&D's rules, all but the 3 weakest demons and the 3 weakest devils can attack non-psionics.
By AD&D's rules, the 3 strongest demons, the strongest devil, and all named figures can attack non-psionics.

See above. Driving passers-by mad is in most of their stat most.

>They're basically the Viet Cong,
[Athas Intensifies]

Huh, I've got a relevant quote for once.
>we did porn
>Zak is continuously trying to do a Hunter S. Thompson thing which does not profit bcuz unlike Thompson Zak does not obliterate his own ego. To wit; Thompson stands in his own horror fearlessly calling out his paranoid/schizo responses to everything while Zak usually is the hero of his own narrative. But however at the end Zak admits some of his own deep-set fears about the morbid danger many of his friends are in, people who glance off society, and in that bit we get some of that rare “authorial humanity.” Other than though there is a whole lot of moralizing and advice-giving which turned me off.

What are the most instructive modules for DMs?

Keep on the Tomb Kings Doom.

Tower of the Stargazer gives great advice

In Search of the Unknown

B1, B2, B4, X1, Tower of the Stargazer, MCMLXXV.

Please at least give some reasons or background for these choices.

I really liked the advice in Broodmother Skyfortress. Lots to read at a leisurely pace.

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tenfootpole.org/ironspike/?p=3360
>s a result of this exposition (which goes on for damage and thrown boulders and so on) the length of text is larger. The boring old generic stats for the giants if about 1/6th of a page, and a digest page at that. The new stats take two pages. It’s not because they are dense, like some old 3.x or Pathfinder stat blocks might be. It’s because the philosophy and reasoning for doing what in the stats is explained. The DR section is two paragraphs. To describe “-5 points.” Clearly something else is going on here and that something else is the Reasons Why. Not the ecology. The reasons why you want to do this to promote gameable content and actions. Telling the players their blows bounce off. Watching the futility when you announce a roll of 6 barely scratches the surface. How to use the “ecology” of the monster to promote the vibe and gameable content. It’s ingrained in to every part of the stat block for the “new” giants.

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>no, they'll want to tell you HOW they sneak, and what precautions they take, the whole hog.
They'll probably say "but that's boring though user."
Is that the point to give up on trying to convince them?
I'm a rulings-over-rules person through and through, myself. Just look how many stupid nonsensical results you could get from applying 3.5 RAW. It's just that stealth feels like one of those things a set of rules would be suited for.

>Use moral as situational awareness.
That's actually not a terrible idea. I might just ignore difficulty honestly and say for certain monsters "sneaking up on this monster gets a -2 penalty" for dragons and such, which are notoriously alert.

>stealth and surprise in OSR
is basically just a quick abstraction that keeps the game moving, and keeps the focus on the imaginary situation more than the game algorithms.

It also puts power into the player's hands. They know exactly what their move silently roll is, and with time they'll get a general idea of how easy it is to surprise/ambush most opponents.

If the PCs are doing something smart (such as taking off all their armor and putting on camouflage to get past a sentry, avoiding ridgelines while traveling cross country, using a mirror to glance around a corner) they should probably just get the benefit of the doubt, rather than rolling.

A system where the GM must set a target number (like a DC) means you're playing "guess what the GM is thinking", or worse, "comb through the book to minmax the stat".

Tomb of the Iron God. Even if you disagree with Finch's primer, it's a solid module with good advice on how to run it in an appendix.

>Keep on the Tomb Kings Doom.
Compilation of several module names.
Keep on the Borderlands, Tomb of the Serpent Kings, and Death Frost Doom?
I'd only recommend Keep on the Borderlands. It came with some versions of the Basic set and is a sample dungeon explicitly meant to show new DMs the ropes.
>Tower of the Stargazer
One of Raggi's better works. Has a lot of text boxes that say, "here's a thing you need to do a lot as DM, use this bit to try it out." No wandering monsters, which is a big turn-off.
>In Search of the Unknown
Another sample dungeon from the Basic set meant to teach new DMs. Drills them on stocking dungeons and has a page of general advice.

Isn't
>This defense can be kept up at all times, unlike the others.
just a nod at
>If it is used the user may defend with only mode G, Thought Shield, or have no defense at all.
?

>If the PCs are doing something smart (such as taking off all their armor and putting on camouflage to get past a sentry, avoiding ridgelines while traveling cross country, using a mirror to glance around a corner) they should probably just get the benefit of the doubt, rather than rolling.
This, and it's converse with Perception (you should notice obvious things) are the biggest issues I have with not only post-3e D&D but with RPGs in general. Now, sometimes a Perception check is called for, like seeing a plane up in the sky when you're in the woods and the engine is quiet. Sometimes it isn't, and it's something that you should just see. How is the DM supposed to make that judgment call on the fly and have it make sense? More so, most of the time them missing a perception check can slow the narrative (if that kind of language is allowed here, pls no foegyg) because they didn't notice something.

That said I agree with the rest of your post. I just want my abstraction to be representative of the various factors involved, without devolving into a full-blown (and overly-complicated) skills system.

>A system where the GM must set a target number (like a DC)
Definitely agree with this as well, especially given how arbitrary it is.

He's Canadian.

>The lessons are udan-adan.blogspot.com/2018/03/rpg-books-as-fiction.html at best and masturbatory at worst.
I read that whole article and I am not sure if you are calling the article preachy or what. Sorry, I'm probably missing the point very badly here. The rest of it makes sense. It's just that I've read ToSK and it seems good so I was curious what was considered to be bad about it.

The boxes labelled "Lesson" not the intention to teach lessons.

>what's bad about it

Skerples wrote it!

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Ah yeah that makes more sense.

Do you ever previsualize a new character's death in advance? OSR being a pretty lethal game style and all.

Like, a character of mine or one of my players' characters? Either way, I don't think about it much.

I think much more about what my character would do in retirement.

Hard to do since you rarely know what's gonna kill him.

Odd question to ask, but what are some OSR vidya, or good old school dungeon crawlers.

Zork.

Ultima Underworld

Dungeon Master

ADVENT
Rogue

Do you guys think there would ever be a AD&D 3e? Going back to the roots of 1e and 2e style of rules but updated a little?
It would have to be someone other than WOTC though.

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There's a fan-made AD&D 3e, in the Trove.

Which trove, and which folder?

Original Trove, I think it's under "OSR games/
AD&D 3e - fan made."

I imagine an AD&D3E would look something like Dragonfist.

Do you guys think Gary's widow has his 2e manuscripts? Tucked in with the Castle Greyhawk maybe?
I'm not going to dance on her grave. But it'll be a happy day when she dies.

Treasure Trove. 03_OSR Games/AD&D3e - Fan Made Edition

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Is it any good?

mirroring the picture got a giggle out of me

The Dark Spire
Warriors of the Eternal Sun
Wizardry
The Immortal

>udan-adan.blogspot.com/2018/03/rpg-books-as-fiction.html
I'm surprised people haven't written about this more, with "actual plays" you can visibly see people struggling to run critically acclaimed storybook modules despite having spent hours upon hours preparing, you can then watch the same group run a manual module with zero prep and everything goes much smoother and people actually look like there having fun.

Dunno, haven't read it. I'm a dyed-in-the-wool Ba/Xtard.

In a previous thread we discussed a video of some group playing Maze of the Blue Medusa, it was ridiculously how much metagaming was going on.

Manual module? Anyway, I believe people don't talk about it much (even though everyone kinda knows that it's true at the back of their heads) because part of what RPG books are selling is the dream that you too can run this module/game one day and that it will turn out as good as your daydream. I've got nothing against reading RPG books for fun, but I wish publishers were honest about their work being an art piece/inspiration fodder not meant for the table.

Link to the discussion?

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I don't know, I think those modules do work for a particular type of GM and player. Every other thread you see here posts of the "I tried running OSR for my group but they're horrible Pathfinder/5E/4E/other_modern_RPG drones that just DON'T GET IT" and even if those posts are true stories rather than cheap attempts at (You) collection, they don't mean OSR as a whole is simple inspiration fodder that will break the second it hits the table. Sometimes, groups just don't like things.

NAYRT
It was literally just one guy saying, oh GGNoRe did a podcast on MotBM, and then someone else saying that they had to metagame the fuck out of it to advance. And that was the end of the "discussion."

Bloodborne I think fits pretty well, especially the Chalice Dungeons

Any roguelike really.

Hi I'm back thanks for all the feed back yesterday, I did some modifications and tried trimming fat, I do think I might have fucked up my formatting.
Anyways I'm mostly posting again to get both ideas and feed back.
Changed the dragon traits a bit, but breath weapons remain unchanged, as I'm still juggling various options on my head.
But I think I'm considering keeping the sleep one as is, my reasoning being that compared to the wizard's Sleep spell the breath is a much weaker version, while the spell does have a HD cap it still has a massive 240' range and and requires no save, the breath only affects a small area and creatures can attempt a saving throw against it.

I guess most of my problems are not being able to play test this because my group disbanded a couple weeks ago.

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Anyone got a copy of Swords and Wizardry Continuous Light?

Just buy it already, it's $3

Why are there so many Canadian OSR players and writers?

Did they even sell D&D in Canada back in the 70s and 80s? Were people actually able to buy polyhedral dice up there? I thought they didn't even get electronics until way later

>why are these people who live in a frigid backwater hellhole so keen on escapism?
hmn really makes you think

Join whichever discord cavegirl is in, talk to the cave master for her group there, and ask to join as one.

Most canadians are funny in the head. UVB deprivation is a hell of a drug.

>Did they even sell D&D in Canada back in the 70s and 80s?
Yeah they did. Took six weeks to get in by mail order; it was advertised in the back issues of Range magazine and, due a printer's error, The Princesses Guide. This meant, for a few years, more women entered the D&D scene in Canada than men.
>Were people actually able to buy polyhedral dice up there?
This is tricky. Until '98 (Frigid '98 as we call it on account of the ice storm), any dice other than six-siders were classed as "gambling paraphernalia" and couldn't be imported without a license. Game stores flouted the rule all the time, but most people either skipped over the border and bought a few sets or carved their own in shop class.
> I thought they didn't even get electronics until way later
Hey bud that's a slander. Just because we didn't legalize AM radio until the 80s doesn't mean we're backwards, dontcha know.

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>any dice other than six-siders were classed as "gambling paraphernalia" and couldn't be imported without a license

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GGnoRe metagames the fuck out of everything. The GM can't decide if he's running a game or leading a review and it's very annoying.

In the end, they produce lousy games to listen to (because everyone's disengaged and smirking at the material) and lousy reviews (because they only discuss the bits they encounter). They did the same thing for Tomb of Annihilation, Deep Carbon Observatory, and yes, Tomb of the Serpent Kings.

I mean, it doesn't break my leg or pick my pocket, but it kind of bugs me that they try so hard and fail in such a simple, common way - by not knowing what they are.

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Oh shit, canada has internet now?
How are you guys enjoying dial up?

What about teetotums?

Yeah, there was a big issue with unlicensed casinos in the Kitchener area. A few out in BC too; I think the Newfies might have had one on a boat? Anyway, point is, they all got shut down for running craps and blackjack and what-not.

So they started back up again but with new games using all kinds of stuff. The logic being that gambling in Canada was, at the time, regulated by game type. There were laws against gambling on dogs, on sled races, on fights, on poker... but there weren't any laws against this new game that involved round 20-sided dice and a felt sheet made out of an old pool table.

Course they changed the law and shut it down too, but the stopgap measure against importing polyhedral dice wasn't removed until '98, when Chrétien removed them as part of his general crime omnibus bill.

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Oh yeah, they got banned too. I think they were banned before?
The law originally banned dreidels too, but they got a special exemption for obvious reasons.
Pretty good. Can't phone the curling rink to check the scores at the bonspiel while I'm on here, but it's all good - the rink says they're getting a tweeter soon.

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That's just bizarre. I can't imagine playing craps or whatever with d20s.

Can you edit this image to show how many live within 20 and 100 miles of the brim?

Yeah I think they switched the rules up a fair bit too. I remember...
I mean, I remember a relative saying...
that you could place a bet on the difference between the numbers too, and also on any one individual number turning up? Like it was a multi-step process. You'd indicate a position using bottlecaps with your name on it (owing to poker chips also being gambling paraphernalia). For deniability reasons this meant you also had to have an open beer handy at all times, so things tended to get a little rowdy.

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You seem oddly knowledgeable about this. Ever get caught in a shoot-out? Were they guns from the Second Boer War or guns from the Great War?