So we all know the age old CHA debate about whether it effects your appearance. But how about "Appearance" or "Visual Appeal" as a skill? As in you know how to compliment your natural beauty, or engineer beauty with makeups and deliberate clothing?
Do you think this would work well in a PnP?
Call of Cthulhu has it. It seem a little redundant most of the time desu.
Is it redundant because its a bad mechanic, or is it redundant because players or GMs rarely provide opportunities for its use?
Sure but someone who's naturally good looking will have it naturally, and never need to roll, so it needs to be a core stat, whereas someone using it as a skill needs to apply the skill just to get to the same level.
Kinda interesting.
Beauty, a net worth of your modifiers
Natural Beauty, a stat in itself
Then how fit you are, maybe based on Strength
and then how well you present it, Grooming, where a skill like Makeup can give you increased Beauty, or help another character get increased Beauty.
You could have fierce disgusting barbarian(not super musclebound so it shines through obviously, but still strong) character in a party, but he has like poor habits when it comes to hygien, picking his nose and just putting his booger on his arms.
But if another character with good grooming skills prepares him he can look great at a ballroom event. Maybe he'd have to pass a will check not to put a finger in his nose, but still.
Certain characters could be immune or resistant to various beauty modifiers.
Maybe a high wisdom druid notices makeup and disregards it.
Disguise skill.
There are a few RPGs with this (Comeliness is a common term for it for whatever reason)
In play I've rarely seen it come up. While Charisma in theory is disconnected to appearance, in practice most players with a high Charisma do describe them as being attractive anyway. So any situation where looking good would make, Charisma gets used anyway.
For the very niche cases (the stone faced sergeant that inspires unflinching loyalty in his men, etc) the DM would just adjudicate the very few times it mattered that they were charismatic but ugly.
>Comeliness is a common term for it for whatever reason
That's because it used to be an optional stat in D&D.
It is simple. Charisma core stat accounts for PC's appearance. Persuasion/Diplomacy/Perform skills account for charisma in the sense of how compelling the PC is.
I don't really see why would you need graded appearance unless you are playing a game where it's a focus or seriously influences mechanics. Otherwise just consider PCs being of average attractiveness unless, depends on game, they have a relevant trait or say otherwise.
It works in WoD where appearance is essentially one of the ability scores.
It works in Unknown Armies where you can basically make one of your skills "Looking imposing", or "Looking sweet", or "Looking terrible"
In all games I play, I rule that appearance ranges from 1 to 10, and you roll 1d10+charisma (or system's equivalent) to determine your's.
And it's only used as a way to gauge how pretty a PC/NPC is or isn't. That's all, it doesn't apply to anything else.
Works pretty well, my group likes it.
This seems like the best idea.
Ya'll are way over complicating things, Charisma is just the sum total of all things that would influence a person's opinion. That way a silver-tongued dude with ugly scars has the same Charisma score as a pretty but dumb girl.
God I love women's volleyball
There are several problems with physical beauty as a stat or a skill.
To start with, beauty is highly subjective. What's beautiful to one might be unremarkable to another, and that's just for humans. Throw entirely different races into the mix and all bets are off. You might have an orc with a super pumped-up beauty stat, but they'd still be ugly to an elf. In fact, it's entirely possible that the things one race is attracted to are especially repulsive to another. I mean, Dwarves might be super attracted to women with a big bushy beard or whatever. So in that regard a beauty stat simply doesn't work.
Putting that aside, there's still the matter of whether you can actually make a beauty stat worth it. Beyond a certain base level where people aren't instantly repulsed by your looks, the practical use of beauty is limited to a couple of rather specific situations, and even in those situations charisma would still be more important. In that sense, it makes a lot more sense to just roll physical beauty into charisma and keep it as an optional aspect of that stat, allowing for your roleplaying to make the difference between a temptress who captivates men with her stunning looks or an unattractive but suave and convincing negotiator.
Someone who is naturally good looking can screw themselves up by dressing like garbage or making shitty haircut and the like.
>the practical use of beauty is limited to a couple of rather specific situations
Naeh everyone will treat you better if you're attractive in almost every situation
Pretty people will be eaten first.
Doesn't Cyberpunk have Wardrobe and Style as a stat? And/or personal grooming? I haven't played it for a while
CHA + STR/DEX (higher of the two) + CON / 3 = base COM
Visual Appeal skill is a normal skill modified by COM mod.
That way, players don't have to put points into or roll it; it's based on things they already have, and they can choose to put skill points into looking better and getting the benefits of that. But you still explain natural beauty via general health and personal magnetism levels.
The naturally hot girl that no one realises is hot is the basis for any number of rom-coms
Play HackMaster.
It has all the usual D&D stats.
PLUS A DEDICATED "LOOKS" STAT
It's been done, it's a bad idea, post more ass.
But what's considered atractive is very situational especially is you are throwing different species in the mix
I don't think appearance should be a stat like the other ability scores, where having a higher number is objectively better. I think it should be a trait or descriptor, like age, height, weight, personality, and alignment.
CHA covers a lot of things and looks are only a minor part of that. Looking nice helps, but it's more in how the person carries themselves or is able to interact with other people.
It's not that situational. A hot chick will be a hot chick. There are tastes, personal and cultural, but a lot of it is just biological and won't differ from person to person. Some of it is how you present what you've got, wether it is fitness, clothing, shaving, makeup.
Having charisma, looks and sorcerous power all within in one stat is pretty crazy.
For personal taste you can have a roll and see if you have a special thing or not for a character, +1 or -1 to their overall beauty score of 17 or whatever it is.
Can't really say anything about the psyche of other sapient species though.
Why are they wearing socks but no shoes?
What would you do with objects that don't have statistics but would still be considered beautiful by common sense, like paintings and statues? Would you then instead base it upon the artisan's crafting skill?
Also, what about when a person consider's another person's weakness cute and endearing? Or is put off by another person's superiority? Could bonuses/penalties flipflop?
Rugby actually. Look at the ball.
Far left and centre, please
BRAP BRAP BRAAAAAAAAP
Of course you would be looking at balls in that image you fucking faggot
>What would you do with objects that don't have statistics but would still be considered beautiful by common sense, like paintings and statues? Would you then instead base it upon the artisan's crafting skill?
hm, yeah I guess just leaving that to crafting skill works. I don't think it is as important though.
Even less important, but harder imo to think about is how you would judge the beauty of a natural landscape.
which level was the God who crafted this waterfall? how many worshippers does the local river deity have?
>Also, what about when a person consider's another person's weakness cute and endearing? Or is put off by another person's superiority? Could bonuses/penalties flipflop?
I think all of that would more or less fall under charisma, but you could still add more levels to it maybe with personal biases.
>Also, what about when a person consider's another person's weakness cute and endearing?
Like a guy is shy, and a girl happens to find that cute?
I suppose in most cases I think it would just work to roll for seeing if person X is person Ys general type and have that as a modifier to the beauty and the charisma.
>Prettier people make better sorcerers.
I run a game called Hackmaster with 7 stats. It does come up, and works well enough.
The prettyboy elf constantly gets hit upon, sometimes gets away with things he shouldn't, especially when haggling with a female shopkeeper or costermonger. He also gets underestimated by men. He has high appearance and charisma but is dimwitted and gullible so he doesn't really abuse it as much as he should.
The ugly/scarred human sometimes gets taunted by children and is pretty much ignored in taverns unless he comes up to the bar or summons a wench himself. All of the nicer establishments turn up their noses at him. Despite low appearance, he has high charisma and is able to intimidate, persuade, and lead people pretty effectively.
>Literally a class built around having the special "MAGIC" genes from fucking a dragon, or being the god chosen messiah of a deity.
Checks out with me. I always flavor wild magic sorcerers as being "Chosen by the fates" or something anyhow.
Except it’s false, because there’s always at least one guy who likes her because that’s his fetish
You just described Appearance in World of Darkness. It's not just your natural beauty, but also your ability to make yourself look more handsome/pretty, and changes to the way you carry yourself.
People who harp the hardest about how cha =/= looks all happen to look like melted shit and have the social aptitude of a fucking gnat.
you should rather use something with a bell curve to determine beauty. there are rarely totally ugly or mindblowing beautiful people.
Charisma is force of character. A horrifically ugly person also has lots of charisma, because their appearance still has what in character design is called “appeal”, though in that case it is negative appeal. Take for example the archetypal hag. She has a fuckton of charisma.
That doesn't track as well with dragonborn, though. Most humans aren't gonna find them attractive/handsome, but their confidence, regality and poise makes them compelling personalities.
There’s a good number of systems that have aesthetics/fashion as a skill.
You aren't charismatic just because you happen to be a real ugly motherfucker, user.
I would berry my dick so far into those asses...
That's not what the user said you dope. Try uping your reading comprehension.
Try not being ugly
>force of character
>wisdom governs willpower
>know how to compliment your natural beauty
>know how to
>know
oddly enough, this is an INT based skill. any of you clueless neckbearded faggots who have anything to say otherwise can only dream of having one of those delicious pawgs sitting on and smothering your face
I think Nanny Ogg is a better example. She actually gets laid on a regular basis despite being close to 100 years old. I mean, how else do you have a son in every profession across the kingdom?
>Dragonborn are beautiful
>Sorcerers are all extremely attractive
>Winston Churchill? Total hottie.
I didn't think she still got laid, just a lot when she was younger and beautiful
I've only read 2 witch books though
Do you have a negative INT score?
It's terrible in any system that uses it, basically.
Just.
Let players by hot or whatever as their choice and decouple it from mechanics.
It also doesn't, like, account for Taste.
Yes, it is
IT'S BETTER IN GURPS
You have an Appearance score from monstrous to divine, giving you bonus or malus on the "reaction roll" NPC have to make to see if they like you or not. For ugly or pretty, it's a little malus/bonus on both sex. If you go up to beautiful, it's a small bonus for both sex and a bigger on for people attracted to your sex.
You gain a malus on social roll if you're very beautiful for people who doesn't like you, because they are ressent your good look.
It works only for one species, that you specify when you buy it. You can buy a trait that makes it works on all species (it's usually used for divine beauty or monstrous appearance) a trait to be androgynous so it works on both sex, a trait so your appearance is not sexual but more majestuous, like a king, so it works on both sex, and finally a cute trait that makes you cute instead of hot if you are beautiful and homely instead of repulsing if you are ugly.
COVER EVERY SCENARIO, CAUSE IT'S GURPS
I don't know if its better but is definitely more, I give you that
>he wouldn't Churchill
you gay?
Thanks, glad you like it!
You're right, but I honestly didn't want to risk getting anything more complicated than that. I think that less is more.
And still, it's consistent enough in keeping appearances ranging from 4 to 7, the instances of 10s and 1~2s are fairly rare since common NPCs rarely have a bonus/penalty greater than 1~2 in their charisma.
BRAAAAAAAAPPPPPPPP
are you saying a literal retard with high CHA can persuade a wizard?
in DnD? Yes, not only can he persuade the wizard but might be able to almost entirely re-write said wizards entire worldview.
Because DnD is not a system designed for anything other then going into dungeons and stabbing dragons. (And I'd argue it doesn't do a great job of that either)
>one of the most hated men in politics while he was alive
>kicked out of his own party, then kicked out of the other party because people hated him so much
>relied entirely on his wealth and shrewd tactics to have any power
He's intelligence and gold overcoming deficits in charisma.
Dead wrong, grognard. Only a faggot DM would allow a charisma skill check to do anything other than sway a specific decision or convince someone of the validity of a point of view.
What if he rolls a 50, after bonuses?
Depends on the initial attitude
then you're minmaxing in 3.5, which is the death knell of roleplaying anyway so you were fucked from the start
So, two rolls?
>Why are my Players Murdohobos?
>Fuck you Diplomancer, roll initiative
whatever point you were trying to make has been lost in your undoubtedly dank meme usage.
I have always made sense of it by saying charisma comes from appearance, charm, and dignity.
Proportions could be changes to taste but I will just assume equal proportions here: Someone with 18 CHA gets 6 of that from being attractive, 6 from being charming, and 6 from being dignified.
Someone can give rousing speeches but if they are as ugly as a leper and live in debauchery then they will not be charismatic.
Someone could also be attractive and charming but they can only ever get 12 charisma because they are not worthy of respect, they are just pleasant to look at and listen to (like a high class prostitute)
You can only attempt one roll per day iirc.
But yeah, you can try again later.
You sound upset, DM.
Dream Pod 9 has Appearance as a stat, then some skills used it.
>"Chosen by the fates"
>End up with crazy psychic powers
>Have almost as much control over them as Fumbles the Fighter What Always Rolls Critical Misses And Cuts His Toes Off
>Keep getting followed by the same three hags that keep snipping bits of string while you're fighting assholes guarding treasure you want
>Almost always survive by the skin of your teeth, midriff ripped off of your clothes/armor and arms, sweatslicked muscles revealed for the hag that has their shared eye to see
>"WHO ARE YOU PEOPLE" is always met with the hag equivalent of high school girl giggling and running away
I think that user has it right. It's not so much willpower as it's a distinctiveness of who you are. It's why possession and charms tend to be CHA saves.
Easy to possess an average Joe then someone who's got a very distinct style "This is me"
Damn it user, I was trying to breathe.
Appearance is an attribute, and Charisma is another.
I came into this thread expecting this post.
>yesterday
>thread about CHA and thread about WIS at the same time
>Thread about WIS, even though technically more debatable and nebulous dies instantly
>CHA thread with phatt butts as OP lives for days
Never change Veeky Forums
This, but it's usually a stat that's rolled up as soon as someone fucks up and asks whether they're good-looking because of their Charisma or not.
I don't care what your Charisma is. That's your force of personality, as someone in the thread prior stated. If you fuck up and try to make this distinction, everyone at the table rolls 3d6 and gets what they get.
It's like if T H I C C was a sport.
Does that mean a couple of them are hookers?
Charisma is charisma not how you look
You could look like biggest piece of shit and be capable of drawing others in like a whirlpool and get them ready to die by drowning with one speech
She still got laid on occasion - at least once with Cassanunda, iirc, and she had that cookbook... but yeah, most of her sex-having was with her 3+ husbands, or at least while she was married to them.
And it was generally agreed that while the looks played a part, it was the attitude that did most of the work - the sort of attitude that would notice and know about the Long Man, for example
He had charisma out the ass, he was just divisive as fuck, (and took/had a shit-ton of flaws) - but climbing out of the doldrums and failures at least twice was all his own doing
>relied entirely on his wealth and shrewd tactics to have any power
t. closet wehraboo who's never heard any of Churchill's public speeches