Horus Heresy General /hhg/

Need_TLC
Need_TLC

Pirate Alpharius edition.

Previous veekyforums.com/thread/58709932/games

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RumChicken
RumChicken

Ave Dominus Nox!

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happy_sad
happy_sad

I'm so excited for this fucking faggot to come out.

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likme
likme

his marines aren’t truescale

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Nojokur
Nojokur

Die in a fire.

Booteefool
Booteefool

Hello shorty

CodeBuns
CodeBuns

veekyforums.com/thread/58709932/games
But I want to make an army of Alpha Legion sleeper agents.

StrangeWizard
StrangeWizard

he lacks imagination
My marines move on their own, I swear I even heard bolter shots happen on the tabletop.

Evil_kitten
Evil_kitten

The matrix means that IA primary considers AL Sworn Brothers, but an AL primary considers IA Fellow Warriors.

Skullbone
Skullbone

This is in the header to the legion-specific rites of war in the Age of Darkness Legiones Astartes Army List book - primary detachment only, can’t use them in allied detachments.

Does the Legions book say anything like that?

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Boy_vs_Girl
Boy_vs_Girl

Keshig terminators soon all with power glaives for AP2 at initiative on demand, soon.

Blessed Forge World, White Scars are shaping up to be on the power level of Thousand Sons.

Firespawn
Firespawn

he carries grenades over his chest
Enjoy blowing up faggot

Evil_kitten
Evil_kitten

He's still ugly as fuck.

Ignoramus
Ignoramus

GREAT CRUSADE ELDAR AND ORK LISTS WHEN

Spamalot
Spamalot

Carry what you love the most closest to your heart.

SomethingNew
SomethingNew

This would have been ok if the dude bothered to either make the legs mk V with a shitload of studs and cables, or made it mk IV.

likme
likme

Just say they are asleep

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LuckyDusty
LuckyDusty

Phoenix terminators will cry perfect tears in a corner.

eGremlin
eGremlin

I still think it's stupid to arm a bodyguard unit with a weapon that doesn't work when defending. But yeah, power spears really need a rework, they're one of the worst examples of weak book 1 rules getting overtaking by later power creep.

GoogleCat
GoogleCat

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Sir_Gallonhead
Sir_Gallonhead

Keshig terminators soon all with power glaives for AP2 at initiative on demand, soon.
Cost even more than Phoenix Guard

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kizzmybutt
kizzmybutt

But yeah, power spears really need a rework
As an EC player I think Palatine Blades are fine, I think power glaives are a bigger issue. First off I don't think any sergeant level characters should have AP 2 at initiative for marines. If you aren't a former or current member of the personal guard of Fulgrim, Mortarion, or Guilliman you aren't running around with a Phoenix Spear, Manreaper, or Legatine Axe, and I doubt a former member of a primarch's guard would be "promoted" to a lowly tactical or assault sergeant.

As for power glaives they are simply the biggest example of power creep.
First were power scythes which were AP 2 at -1 initiative, and it was pretty good
Then came phoenix spears, which were AP 2 at full initiative, but only on the charge so it was okay
Then came legatine axes which were always AP 2 at initiative
Now there are power glaives that are always AP 2 at initiative but also get +1 strength like power scythes and phoenix spears

As for how to nerf glaives without making them worthless or identical to existing power weapons, I'm not sure, requiring that they charge is probably necessary, maybe a power lance with -1 AP (so 3/2) and no strength bonus on the charge, meaning that although they have lower strength than Phoenix Spears they have an extra attack since they aren't two handed and when not charging are identical to power swords (making them objectively better by a small measure than phoenix spears on the defensive).

Skullbone
Skullbone

As an EC player I think Palatine Blades
Meant Phoenix Spears are fine

Evilember
Evilember

I remember there was some user wondering whether those new sneks for age of skubmar would make decent alpha legion gal vorbak, or if the scales hue are too mismatched. So: it looks like it's a pretty good match.

(Not my model, BTW, just found elsewhere on the internet.)

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BlogWobbles
BlogWobbles

not a huge fan of the gold helmet, looks great otherwise.

I think he'd look more menacing with either a midnight blue helmet (with some lightning bolts or a bloody handmark or something) or bone white.

FastChef
FastChef

He unironically thinks using MK X in Heresy is a good idea, when opinions are divided in using MK VI in large numbers for most Legions, or more than the very odd bit of MK VII is considered Haram

Spamalot
Spamalot

Then came legatine axes which were always AP 2 at initiative
Legatine axes can only be taken by independent characters and cost 20 points. They are perfectly fine unless you're spamming Suzerains.

Garbage Can Lid
Garbage Can Lid

Is he fucking both dogs at the same time?

SniperWish
SniperWish

Trained in the art of wolf fuggery he is.

King_Martha
King_Martha

Keshig terminators
Undercoated like TS Sekhmet

Anything is possible with FW, user.

Poker_Star
Poker_Star

So I did some thinking about the Siege of Terra. We know that the IF had the largest/most powerful fleet of all the Legions, and we know that the IW and SoH also had enormous fleets. We know AL had a large-ish fleet, and that most of the other traitors were about average. We don't know a lot about BA and WS fleets, other than that they probably took a beating before the siege proper began.

Knowing that the UM had a somewhat disproportionately small navy that had been decimated by the WB and WE, does anyone agree with me when I say that the Traitors might have been able to win at Terra if 1) Horus' death hadn't demoralized one of the most powerful Legions that also was alone with IW to committing to the Siege, and 2) if their Daemonic allies hadn't been banished by Horus' death?

The SW fleet was fairly average and had been badly mauled in the late Heresy, and I doubt the DA fleet would have been able to compensate for the UM and SW fleets in all-out void war with 9 other Legions.

Obviously other traitor Primarchs panicking and making power grabs hurt the traitor cause, but still.

eGremlin
eGremlin

The SW fleet was fairly average
The SW fleet was below average and that was before Prospero, Alaxxes and Yarant.
Somebody has to be worse than average in order to have the average.

RumChicken
RumChicken

I dunno if I can agree with you. You've made a lot of assumptions about stuff that hasn't been covered yet, I'm just not sure we can judge at all at this stage.

One thing though, you've said the loyalist fleets are all pretty worn down, but seem to be assuming the traitor fleets are in tip-top condition. I don't think that's really fair - the traitors have been fighting for years too, they're going to have taken damage to their fleets as well.

hairygrape
hairygrape

Where do I make assumptions? I haven't read a lot of the new SW lore, so might be right about their original fleet size, but I'm pretty spot on about the other stuff IIR lore correctly?

RumChicken
RumChicken

What's your go to loadout for a Contemptor?

I'm building a Death Guard one. Kind of want to have a conversion beamer, but not sure yet.

Poker_Star
Poker_Star

Basically, you've made assumptions on the state of the IF, IW, SOH, AL, BA and WS fleets at the time the horus got to terra - you seem to be working on the basis of what they had at the start of the war. We just don't know what state they're in at Terra, because the black books are nowhere near that point. For example, we know IW had a huge fleet at the start of the war, but we don't know how well they kept that up (or replenished losses) after Phall, that fuckwittery in the eye of terror, Tallarn, and general shattered legion/WS attrition. Maybe IW still have a huge fleet at Terra, maybe they don't, we just don't know.

PackManBrainlure
PackManBrainlure

Ave Dominus Nox

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King_Martha
King_Martha

Magnus got his ass kicked and his spine rearranged by a Viking the size of his shoe

LMAO

askme
askme

That's a very good point. I assumed IW and SoH still had very strong fleets by the time of the Siege, since IW had access to the shipyards of Olympia and SoH (according to a number of small blurbs in various FW books) typically got first pick from new/recovered gear when and where it was available.

MPmaster
MPmaster

Which is the best of the Sworn Brothers to use as an allied detachment for SoH's primary?

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DeathDog
DeathDog

How the hell are you supposed to read that chart, are top the primary or allied detachment?

Stark_Naked
Stark_Naked

In space, no one can hear you yiff.

Unless it's psychic yiffing.

takes2long
takes2long

armor-heresy aside, I love this dude's color scheme. I think I asked about it on his instagram a long time ago and all I remember is that it's way more work than I'd ever want to deal with.

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PackManBrainlure
PackManBrainlure

Top's the allied, left the primary.

Evilember
Evilember

Left Column = Primary
Top Row = Ally

Firespawn
Firespawn

and all I remember is that it's way more work than I'd ever want to deal with
Are you joking? It’s fucking babby’s first airbrush scheme.
zenithal preshade
colour
slap on wash
You could bang out an army in no time flat. Don’t get me wrong, it looks great.

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Burnblaze
Burnblaze

I've never airbrushed before but this looks pretty simple. You could probably do something similar with a normal brush as well.

Stark_Naked
Stark_Naked

Pirate Alpharius edition

DO WHAT YOU WANT COS THE HYDRA IS FREE

WE ALL
ARE
ALPHARIUS

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RavySnake
RavySnake

Puffy
Cloaca

Stupidasole
Stupidasole

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Harmless_Venom
Harmless_Venom

There's a lot we don't know - does the loyalist fleet actually engage the Traitors prior to the Siege, or do they run away? If the latter, they could join up with the UM and DA and be more likely to outnumber the Traitors. Either way, there were fixed defenses that would've whittled down the Traitor fleet. And there's a lot of uncertainty over how many ships the UM had. Before the Heresy it was just average, and it took a beating at Calth, but Ruinstorm says it's the largest fleet at that moment. I have no love for that book so I'm tempted to just ignore it, but Ultramar could pull it off.

I don't think the UM and DA's arrival would have been decisive.

But I'm hesitant to ask what would've happened if the Traitors hadn't been demoralized, because that's exactly how battles work: one side loses when it becomes demoralized and breaks. Every part of the battle leads to that one moment, so you're basically asking what would've happened if that battle hadn't been that battle.

The Traitors were screwed. The daemons had left, anyone with active or latent psychic ability (including the primarchs) felt the Chaos gods withdraw their favor, the Blood Angels had just made a very successful suicidal charge, and Horus had such a personality cult around him that no one else could step into the void. None of the other primarchs had much influence outside of their own legion.

On the other hand... if the daemons stay, then the gods are still on the traitor side, the Blood Angels' charge gets blunted, and the Traitors continue pouring into the breach they've made in the palace walls. That would change everything.

haveahappyday
haveahappyday

Whichever primarch at Terra would have stepped in instead of Horus would be immediately killed by Russ and the Lion. None of them had been nearly as powerful as Horus and he was probably the only one the wolf and the lion couldn't take apart.

Bidwell
Bidwell

It’s take them a while to make it down to the surface. If the daemons stay, I think the traitors reach the Golden Throne first.

New_Cliche
New_Cliche

I'm not sure. From what information we have regarding the DA and SW's arrival to Sol System, they had engaged traitor forces planetside while they had been in retreat.

viagrandad
viagrandad

The traitors are such an undisciplined motley rabble that I understand how everything went to shit after Horus let go off the wheel. Without a clearly defined leader it would be impossible to coordinate strategy. None of the living Primarchs could have filled those shoes.

he was probably the only one the wolf and the lion couldn't take apart
Why would they even agree to duel Lion or Russ? Angron or Fulgrim could probably give them a run for their money, especially with Daemon powerups. Depending how you interpret the Night of the Wolf, Angron may have bested Russ in single combat (despite losing the wider battle).

BlogWobbles
BlogWobbles

Where can I find the rules for Secutarii Peltasts? They aren't in the Taghmata army book.

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Raving_Cute
Raving_Cute

Who said anything about duels? It would be a hunt.
I really doubt any of the daemon primarchs came close to juiced-up Horus.

HH7 Inferno

Lunatick
Lunatick

Inferno

Carnalpleasure
Carnalpleasure

Thanks friends.

haveahappyday
haveahappyday

It would be a hunt.
Except you know they have entire armies at their back, so it would just be a continuation of the current battle.
I really doubt any of the daemon primarchs came close to juiced-up Horus.
They don't need to. Daemon Fulgrim or Angron could easily stomp Russ' head in.

Evilember
Evilember

Would anyone here be interested in reading Pre-Heresy fanfic stories?
I love the legion v xeno (and legion v non-Imperial human) bits from the early HH books, but they're few and far between. With that in mind, I'm thinking about trying to write some stories set in the Crusade Era.
y?
n?
fuck off?

SniperWish
SniperWish

Out of curiosity, have you guys ever included a Great Crusade cross-Legion honor among your forces?

Nude_Bikergirl
Nude_Bikergirl

You mean like an Emperor's Children marine wearing an Eye of Horus granted by Horus?

PackManBrainlure
PackManBrainlure

Go for it, if they're ass we'll let you know.

SomethingNew
SomethingNew

Same kind of idea. Like an EC (or BA) earning an honor from each other's Legion during the Murder campaign. Or Raven Guard with Luna Wolves stuff (they spent a large part of the GC campaigning together). Stuff like that

Snarelure
Snarelure

Would anyone here be interested in reading Pre-Heresy fanfic stories?
Definitely. While marine-centric meta fits the Heresy, it feels sort of lacking to me.
As for myself, I'd like to explore Crone/Chaos Eldar more, perhaps in (fan)fic form.

w8t4u
w8t4u

I'd like to explore Crone/Chaos Eldar more, perhaps in (fan)fic form.
I'd read it.

BlogWobbles
BlogWobbles

No, although I don't mind the idea

SniperGod
SniperGod

my traitor EC herald has the banner of the eye.
basically a 3rd legion standart with the eye of horus on top as an ornament

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Garbage Can Lid
Garbage Can Lid

To the guy asking about wartablegames in the last thread, I've gotten most of my mechanicum from him with no major problems, and the one time my tech thralls had a broken foot, he sent a full replacement kit for free.

Methnerd
Methnerd

I’ve gotten good infantry casts from him, but lousy heads and weapons.

Stupidasole
Stupidasole

Iron Hands wore the Eye as well.

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askme
askme

I SEE YOU

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Evilember
Evilember

Shouldn't the filename be Eyeron Hands?

cum2soon
cum2soon

I was there, the day the strength of men failed

Fried_Sushi
Fried_Sushi

no u

btw here is a closeup

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MPmaster
MPmaster

I'm thinking about getting into building an Iron Warriors army after sperg reading a few of their books (siege of castellax, perturabo, storm of iron, angel exterminatus. and i've read a ton about fighting vs them in imperial fist and ultramarine books)

Do they have any army builds that resemble the "Stor-Bezashk" (fuck load o' artillery) ??

I'm pretty much a lorefag that bought betrayl at calth box and I'm looking into buying a few of those sexy black leather HH books to add to my shelf but i do want to start playing the game casually as well.

hairygrape
hairygrape

Yes. IWs have an artillery list.

Flameblow
Flameblow

Veeky Forums's been glitching very heavily lately, and sometimes it just won't let me load threads properly at all and prevents from posting. Today's the first day I've actually been able to post in a thread for a while, so here's a response I typed out day ago. See if this connects with the other user.

veekyforums.com/thread/58687322/games
That really, really went without saying. Fucking duh, Relentless is the exception. Nothing to do with needless reiteration - if you really felt like being anally specifist, just say "we could do with relentless or something".

Changing the topic to something remotely interesting - Blast weapons should totally be fireable with snapshots. Here's the solution:

- Change the base rules of Blast weapons so that they never scatter further than the max range of the attack
- With Snap Shots, roll 3D6 for arrows and 2D6 for hits and subtract BS from either, this is how far the shot scatters

Make it risky but plausible for someone to attempt to corkscrew a grenade while jogging.

RavySnake
RavySnake

fuck load o' artillery
Well all marines have the same "list" so they can all field artillery lists. That being said Iron Warriors have a rite of war that works well with artillery.

Sir_Gallonhead
Sir_Gallonhead

Glamorous!

likme
likme

legion renowned for its cold, emotionless logic
lets just spray gravitational anomalies all over the place lol

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PackManBrainlure
PackManBrainlure

Lmao.

Logic and rationality are some of the worst-used words in 30K (and 40K for that matter) anyway. Closest thing that comes to making me cringe about 30K is whenever they or reason and science crop in a sentence, it'll always be terrible.

Methshot
Methshot

That really, really went without saying.
Apparently not because someone disagreed with it.
Nothing to do with needless reiteration
I wasn't reiterating, I was stating the flaw in the first place.

Nojokur
Nojokur

No, that was literally the basis of the entire agreement. Read the thread before you comment.

I wasn't reiterating, I was stating the flaw in the first place.
Completely wrong, the issue had been stated repeatedly and your post was nothing but a reiteration, and in response to a post that stated/depended as much upon the position.

Supergrass
Supergrass

as for the apothecary i wanted to give him something that signals his loyalty to the emperor/ to a loyalist legion but i cant really think of anythink creativ rather than a simple aquila

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Snarelure
Snarelure

Completely wrong, the issue had been stated repeatedly

Grav is bad
No it isn't
Yes it is because not relentless

Then you (or someone) says it is "completely off the issue of grav viability." The whole issue with grav not being viable for Iron Hands is the lack of relentless. If Iron Hands could be relentless 5 dudes with grav guns would be relatively cheap and extremely effective tank killers. The whole reason Mechanicus can do grav anti-tank well is because they are relentless meaning you can unload them and glance a spartan to death in a single turn.

BlogWobbles
BlogWobbles

Terran raptor with lightning bolts?

GoogleCat
GoogleCat

I was the one who said "yes it is because it's not relentless" in this situation, and the point was already dead when you spoke up.

Then you (or someone) says it is "completely off the issue of grav viability."
No-one said that.

What I said was "This is completely off the issue of grav viability for Iron Hands" - which it was, because you brought up Myrmidons when that wasn't the topic. Not my fault you misread that or the thread in general.

The whole reason Mechanicus can do grav anti-tank well is because they are relentless meaning you can unload them and glance a spartan to death in a single turn.
See, you're doing it again. You're just talking about some fact you want to recite when no-one brought it up or asked/questioned about it.

whereismyname
whereismyname

How does /hhg/ feel about running Malcadors?

I just got a really good deal on two Malcador Annihilators that I just need to strip down and repaint for my Imperial Fists, but was wondering if they’re generally useful on the tabletop.

Garbage Can Lid
Garbage Can Lid

In fact actually I just double-checked your post here , and that wasn't even the conversation anyway.

The conversation was:
Iron Hands are the premier army for Grav
Lol no they're not
Sure just use a special support squad in a rhino
That's idiotic because they lack relentless
Then you say
That's idiotic because they lack relentless
And I say
I literally just said that

cum2soon
cum2soon

I was the one who said "yes it is because it's not relentless" in this situation, and the point was already dead when you spoke up.
Except it wasn't since someone disagreed with you, I responded to that disagreement. Arguments don't suddenly end just because you claim they do and arguments on anonymous message boards are rarely between just two people. Getting angry because someone else expanded upon something you stated is dumb.

which it was, because you brought up Myrmidons when that wasn't the topic.
I brought up Myrmidons as an example of it being done right, hence why I started with
"I know exactly how bad grav is, but I also know that it is a heavy blast weapon with a short range, meaning giving it to non-relentless infantry is dumb as hell."

See, you're doing it again.
I am using an example of it done well to explain why marines can't do it well. Are you really this fucking stupid?

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MPmaster
MPmaster

The conversation was
Nope, I was the first one responding to the special weapon squad post you retard.

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kizzmybutt
kizzmybutt

My god, how deep does this rabbit hole of assbackward wrongness go?

I think I've figured out the root issue. YOU'RE reading veekyforums.com/thread/58687322/games as him saying that all grav weaponry are bad, when in the context of the conversation he was saying they sucked for Iron Hands. *No-one* in the thread was saying grav was bad - at the best veekyforums.com/thread/58687322/games said that some people use non-grav means, which is far from saying "grav is bad" at all.

In summary, you could've spared yourself a smacked arse if you bone up on your reading comp.

Methshot
Methshot

You both are retards about arguing semantics from two threads ago.

girlDog
girlDog

Yes yes, you don't like conflict and find two people arguing stressful. Turn off the monitor nigga, cyberbullying isn't really.

BinaryMan
BinaryMan

Someone thinks of a way to use grav
I say why it is a bad idea
Someone else responds to my post saying
(my post number) help me. You don't know how bad grav really is.

So I decide to respond here veekyforums.com/thread/58687322/games further explaining why grav is a bad idea on marines, comparing it to mechanicum where it works well, and then two retards say that I am missing the point. The gist of the whole argument is

It doesn't work well on marines because X
On the other hand it works well on mechanicum because Y
And then people see my mentioning the mechanicum as completely missing the point.

DeathDog
DeathDog

out of all the things....this wasnt in my mind

seems like an idea but also somthing more like a affiliation with a loyalist legion

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lostmypassword
lostmypassword

You've got the sequence of texts you've highlighted in green completely backwards. That guy was on YOUR side, and asking you for help with dealing with the retard recommending special support squads in a rhino. That was the scope of the conversation, and veering into "btw Grav is good on Mechanicum" was off. That's why I corrected you back on to the topic.

Garbage Can Lid
Garbage Can Lid

"btw Grav is good on Mechanicum" was off.
No it wasn't, it was a fucking comparison.

X is a poor athlete because even though he is fast he has no endurance
Y on the other hand is a good athlete because he is both fast and has great endurance

Marine grav is bad because they aren't relentless
Mechanicum grav on the other hand are good specifically because they are relentless

By illustrating grav done right you can illustrate why five marines in a rhino is a bad idea. It is like saying

Plasma Sicaran is crap at killing tanks because it has poor range and strength
Sicaran Venator on the other is good at killing tanks because even if it doesn't strip hull points as easily on a pen it gets two shots and a penetrating hit prevents the enemy from firing that turn

GoogleCat
GoogleCat

No it wasn't, it was a fucking comparison.
And to what end? Wait for it...

three greentexts explaining what a comparison is when that isn't remotely the issue
I'm laughing, this degree of unnecessary effort baka

WebTool
WebTool

They’re good a squadron of 1-3 count as a heavy support slot. Go for it.

Real-life glaives get their cutting power from being two-handed with your hands far apart. They’re not really a weapon that gets better when you charge, unlike spears.

I do think +1S and -1AP is excessive. Maybe take away the strength bonus but leave AP2 in two-handed mode? That keeps it different from a chainglaive, which is +1S, AP3, rending. Power weapons are usually associated with AP goodness while the larger chain weapons get strength bonuses. (If you’re old enough, chainswords used to as well.) Increase the points, too.

Or clarify that you can’t ride a bike and use a weapon two-handed...

Garbage Can Lid
Garbage Can Lid

And to what end?
Are you dense? To compare a good example to a bad example.
Why are grav guns without relentless bad?
Because they cannot shoot on the move and they have a short range. And to further explain the point I compared them to the example that is good, relentless grav troops.

Emberfire
Emberfire

Maybe take away the strength bonus but leave AP2 in two-handed mode?
Than it is functionally identical to a legatine axe for most purposes. This is the issue with having so many different power weapons, there are only so many different special rules you can add.

VisualMaster
VisualMaster

The glaive is a little worse: two-handed (though the Legatine axe is Specialist), and it doesn’t automatically wound on a to-hit roll of a 6.

DeathDog
DeathDog

You made the comparison to make a comparison. Congratulation, that may be the stupidest fucking response you could've given. Everyone get a look at this nigger, he can't even understand how purpose works. Here's a clue cunt: WHY did you make *THAT* comparison? I'm really leading you to the conclusion with fucking jelly beans on the floor here, this is hilarious.

And oh my god, you are ACTUALLY explaining why grav is bad on non-relentless models AGAIN. Fuck, is it that you're actually a broken record and can't help but savantishly type that out when it isn't even relevant? I've entertained you being a fellow sperg before this point with some work to do, but now I reckon you may be autistic instead, beyond saving.

Raving_Cute
Raving_Cute

Nah the Glaive is better, +1 S definitely outclasses the autowound. And although it's rarely useful, the single-handed option can help earn an extra attack when fighting with bulk PA blobs.

lostmypassword
lostmypassword

hell yeah, i want to read stories from the good old days. where things were still looking to the future with hope and fanfare. when brothers were still brothers and morality still had meaning. it was called the great crusade for a reason

stories like the BA and SoH vs the nephilim, or the EC vs the Laer, or the WS vs the orks. examples where the crusade was truly bringing the torch of illumination to the galaxy. then contrast it against the SoH vs the interex, EC and IH vs diasporex. those wars were about power and domination, conquest for conquest sake.

the 250 years of the great crusade were truly a better time

TechHater
TechHater

What's HHG's opinion on irad cleansers on Vorax with biocorrosive rounds? Worth the upgrade for one in three (stupid fw)? Leave cheap?

I'm trying to figure out how to equip my cybernetica force, we usually play around 1750 points, or ZM at 1k

VisualMaster
VisualMaster

They're probably alright within the Vorax unit itself - the bigger question is if the Vorax are worth taking at all. Poast list, you can get pointed feedback that wey.

JunkTop
JunkTop

He meant with his idea removing the +1 strength but otherwise keeping it the same.

takes2long
takes2long

Oh right, my bad. If you got rid of the +1 then yeah the Legatine is a straight upgrade largely.

Stupidasole
Stupidasole

Oh, I meant if they took away +1S, which would make it a lot like the Legatine Axe.

… or would it? I just tried my hand at some mathhammer and the current power glaive’s +1S has the same effect against marines as the Legatine axe’s 6-to-hit special rule.

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PackManBrainlure
PackManBrainlure

Also, I’m assuming WS4 against WS4. Things get messy beyond my meager statistical abilities when you start including Legiones Astartes special rules like rerolling ones.

SomethingNew
SomethingNew

List is roughly:
Archmagos on abeyant, with rad furnace, pfist, MC chainfist, cyberfamiliar, Malagara, Machinator array, and cortex controller

Magos dominus on abeyant with MC poweraxe, cyber familiar, machinator array, photon thruster

2 Castellax with darkfire cannon, enhanced targeting arrays, bolters

2 Castellax with mauller bolt cannon, flamer, bolter, enhanced targeting arrays

3 thallax with destructor, heavy chainblades, meltabombs

10 thralls with fearless, laslocks, carapace

2 Vorax with biocorrosive rounds,1with irad cleanser, enhanced targeting arrays, frag grenades

Thanatar with paragon, enhanced targeting arrays

The list is something like that anyway, going off of memory

PackManBrainlure
PackManBrainlure

I think I've misremembered how Legatine's worked. By all means disregard what I said earlier, I'd have to take the time to remath this out when I'm not tired.

farquit
farquit

Also worth noting is there are no fliers in my meta

eGremlin
eGremlin

UMs with Legatine axes are more likely to be WS5, so here’s a comparison for WS5 users against WS4, T4 targets.

The odds of wounding for WS4 dudes with either weapon are 12 in 36.

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StrangeWizard
StrangeWizard

The differences are still negligible. Maybe FW should take advantage of less common rules and buffs, eg. remove +1 strength but give them +1 initiative (reach or just fancy fast weapons), White Scars characters can thus kill their enemy first like Emperor's Children can without completely running over their legiones astartes rules.

Although best centurion weapon is easily the Perdition Blade. WS 5 attacking WS 4 with 4 attacks (3 plus charge) score an average 3.55 wounds before saves are taken into account (this includes BA +1 to wound rolls). A Power Glaive on the other hand inflicts just 1.77. Perdition Blades are actually significantly better than Paragon Blades even assuming the user grabs a fist or claw as well.

takes2long
takes2long

You made the comparison to make a comparison.
I made a comparison to illustrate it being done right.
Everyone get a look at this nigger
If you think people care half as much about this conversation as you seem to than you are the dumbest person on this entire site.

SomethingNew
SomethingNew

Looks fine, very little anti-tank and scoring, although this is obviously less of an issue in zone mortalis.

VisualMaster
VisualMaster

Maybe FW should take advantage of less common rules and buffs
Maybe they should just remember that Piercing Cut and Rending are things that exist.

Burnblaze
Burnblaze

So the question still stands, is the irad cleanser worthwhile?

AwesomeTucker
AwesomeTucker

I would probably say no, irad cleansers due to their poor AP are simply underwhelming

Pros
It can scare stupid people into not charging you
It might kill a marine per game if you are lucky

Cons
It costs 10 points
A lightning gun finish off a rhino or land speeder if you are lucky

Evil_kitten
Evil_kitten

Fucking hell, there is no saving this one. I could keep going with this to see what happens next, but for now I'm bored, leave it till later maybe. The conversation has basically become oxymoronic, to make light of it.

eGremlin
eGremlin

How would you fix HH to make basic Infantry relevant again?
Seems like a game were a Scorpius can just delete powerarmour squads outright for a hunnerd points and change will be a rough ride for hode armies.

Nojokur
Nojokur

My outflanking sniper vet troops are just fine.

Lunatick
Lunatick

I like armor modifiers in general. If you make AP3=-2 save then you're getting like a third more survivors than you did before. Shit, you could be even stingier with the nerf bat and reduce some AP3 weapons to -1 save, and handwave it as "the Legions were not equipped to deal with opposing power armor." I don't even like 8th I just find it the most obvious change to buff line infantry without altering stat lines or more than one core mechanic.

Lord_Tryzalot
Lord_Tryzalot

Whatever

Deadlyinx
Deadlyinx

Lower infantry costs
Raise vehicle and artillery costs
Simplest solution.

Nude_Bikergirl
Nude_Bikergirl

Put it this way: someone this hellbent on confusing themselves will fuck up again soon enough.

CodeBuns
CodeBuns

Depends on what you mean, there are a lot of different angles.

A big part of why infantry aren't relevant is that Troops aren't relevant. This in turn stems from the FO chart being both backward and also not at all suited to the scale of the game. In general, "tax" units are a godawful design choice and have horrible consequences, which happen to hit infantry the hardest.

I'd focus on fixing the FO system before anything else, as this would have downstream effects on rebalancing choices. Simply put, Legion Tacs and so on can't afford to be shit if they no longer have Muh Tax as an excuse.

8th ed 40k largely put the issue to bed, although entirely, and my own pet system that I apply to every strategy game I bump into resolves the issue entirely. Ultimately, the FO chart is so bad as things stand that almost any alternative without taxes would be an improvement.

Inmate
Inmate

Stop playing on the bowling ball planet.

Lowering the amount of artillery that can be fielded would also help.

RumChicken
RumChicken

Says the guy who dragged up an argument from two threads ago on the grounds that he found my usage of a comparison unnecessary.

FastChef
FastChef

and my own pet system that I apply to every strategy game I bump into resolves the issue entirely
Go on.

Lunatick
Lunatick

I can't wait for the Terra book lads

Do you think it'll be split into multiple parts?

RumChicken
RumChicken

Is this for BL, or FW?

If BL, expect retardedness, plot twists and ass-pulls. If FW, expect it in 2052.

viagrandad
viagrandad

if I were to buy fancy leather looking HH FW books to add to my sexy shelf about the iron warriors which 3 should I get?

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Dreamworx
Dreamworx

I still need to finish The Vengeful Spirit from BL. I think that's one of the only major ones I didn't get to. Other than that I think I've read or listened to all the major novels from the istvaan sector and ultima sector with my favorites being: Horus Rising, Galaxy in Flames, Angel Exterminatus, Know No Fear, and Betrayer. I listened to 2/3rds of Vengeful Spirit but i didn't notice the mega i had was only 2/3 of the "books" so i still need the final 3rd.

fuck I miss based BranStark and KAT for anyone who remembers him

iluvmen
iluvmen

2, 3, 6.
2
The Dropsite Massacre
3
The Iron Warriors Legion section and the First Battle for Paramar which features loyalist Iron Warriors led by Kyr "Foulmouth" Vhalen
6
Siege of Mezoa has an Iron Warriors detachment turning on Alpha Legion and switching sides for loyalists under the technomantic influence of Cassian Dracos

Stark_Naked
Stark_Naked

EC user here, I finally did it, I got the recipe down. Honestly, it took a lot longer than it should have, but I'm poor and don't live anywhere near civilized society, so my test pots had to come in one at a time.

You can get the same results with a ratio of 3:1 Genestealer to Xereus Purple. Bit more Xereus if you want some more oomph, a bit of white if you wanna lighten it up a tad more. From there, I always give a Druchii Violet wash, and then highlight with Dechala Lilac. Took longer than I had liked, but I know some people here had asked and I was intent on delivering. Now, off to sleep, and tomorrow I can portion this stuff out and get back to painting up my support squads!

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TalkBomber
TalkBomber

Yeah, shame BL basically hunted him down a week before KAT went offline

Booteefool
Booteefool

No, he didn't get hunt down. Branstark had anons go after him since he picks up GW and BL stuff from different boards including this one. Anons didn't like him talking all the credit so they started a drama that eventually driven him off.

SniperWish
SniperWish

w/e the hell he did, his torrents were always complete where as some of these megas are FUCKED and have chapters, hell even books missing from novels.

Snarelure
Snarelure

i too am listening

Firespawn
Firespawn

6 shouldn't be counted, the section about mezoa is abysmal and mostly talk about salamanders and alpha legion

AwesomeTucker
AwesomeTucker

8th edition did nothing, tacticals and assault squads are still trash, barely worth it in a fun match since even with objective secured it's better to simply kill all enemies surrounding the point

girlDog
girlDog

The Ironfire rite of war is pretty fucking neat for artillery lists.

VisualMaster
VisualMaster

Is there a way of getting MK2 or MK3 legs on bikes/jetbikes?

Kromlech sells some specific bits but hey are insanely ugly.

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Deadlyinx
Deadlyinx

convert

BinaryMan
BinaryMan

This is probably asking a lot but does anyone have the old Imgur link to the screenshots of Infernos Space Wolf stuff?
On my break at work and wanted to see how much some of the units are

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Fried_Sushi
Fried_Sushi

Like it a lot user
Would love to see it applied to Fulgrim

Ignoramus
Ignoramus

How often do you make models for characters in the lore that don’t have rules? Always seemed fun to me.

I’m trying my hand at Fafnir Rann of the Imperial Fists soon and I’m going to run his twin axes as a Master Crafted Paragon Blade.

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Sir_Gallonhead
Sir_Gallonhead

Would it be bad of me to use these guys as Blackshields in Pariah Armour?

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StonedTime
StonedTime

i'd think you were a dickhead but then again I'm just some autistic nerd on Veeky Forums

PurpleCharger
PurpleCharger

Why not give him two different sized axes.

Have one smaller to count as a power sword and one normal to count as a power axe.

Or one massive one as a powerfist and one normal as a paragon blade.

Bidwell
Bidwell

I would not play against primaris marines in 30k. I quit 40k to get away from the them.

iluvmen
iluvmen

really wouldnt recommend

TalkBomber
TalkBomber

What's the point of 30k if you aren't going to play fluffy armies?

Stark_Naked
Stark_Naked

If you HEAVILY convert them, to the point of everything save the helmet being unrecognizable, then sure. However, at that point you're better off converting regular 30k marines to truescale.

Nojokur
Nojokur

Pop quiz, /hhg/:

If you could change the points cost of all troops choices, at how much would you price the following so that they are balanced relative to each other and all somewhat-viable options?
Tac squads (currently 25+10 each)
Breacher squads (currently 50+15 each)
Assault squads (currently 40+13 each)
Support squads (currently 25+15 each)
Recon squads (currently 25+15 each)

Lunatick
Lunatick

In the lore they’re twin axes.

BlogWobbles
BlogWobbles

old Imgur link
to the screenshots of Infernos Space Wolf stuff
when you can just download entire book

Sorry, but propably nobody still have this.

eGremlin
eGremlin

The axes are described as paired rather than twined, that allows them to be different styles and sizes.

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ZeroReborn
ZeroReborn

Tacs
0+10pts
Veterans
50+15pts or reworking snipers skill
Breachers
50+15 in ZM, 0+13 outside
Recon squads
50pts+ 10pts each
Free sniper rifles

New_Cliche
New_Cliche

By all means, yes. We have two Blackshields locally and both use Primaris. Noone here has a problem with this.

hairygrape
hairygrape

How did you mix that helmet color? I want to duplicate it.

Sharpcharm
Sharpcharm

He is the head freak of the furries.

Stupidasole
Stupidasole

warhammer citadel page posts picture of rubble
"Epic" announcement #itsgoingtobeEpic etc etc
they start backpedaling in the comments

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Lunatick
Lunatick

Rending
Yep. The nostramian chainglaive is a good example of how WS glaives could work.

Inmate
Inmate

Step 1: Remove base costs, every model costs the same price whether you buy 10 guys or 20
Step 2: Lower breachers to 12 points each and raise assault squads to 15 points each

So
10 Tacticals cost 100 points
20 Tacticals cost 200 points
10 Breachers cost 120 points
20 Breachers cost 240 points
10 Assault Marines cost 150 points
20 Assault Marines cost 300 points
10 Support Marines cost 150 points
10 Recon Marines cost 150 points

Of course with this you would need to rebalance elite, fast attack, and legion special units or render lots of units nearly worthless.

Flameblow
Flameblow

are assault squads really an issue though? you hardly ever see them

Ignoramus
Ignoramus

I see them far more than tac squads as they offer a large boost in mobility and lethality
225 gets you 20 tactical marines with CCWs instead of bolters, kill an average of 5 marines on the charge
355 gets you 20 jump infantry with a combined five power weapons between them, kill an average of 9 marines on the charge (assuming power axes)

The former is practically worthless, while the latter could easily wipe out a squad of veterans in a single turn.

Also my method still lowered the overall cost of assault marines as they now longer have the base squad tax. 10 Assault marines under my idea cost 25 points less and 20 cost 5 points less.

Fried_Sushi
Fried_Sushi

MSU fan: the post

Nude_Bikergirl
Nude_Bikergirl

the section about mezoa is abysmal
Butthurt toasterfucker detected. Reminder that one of the most prominent, warlike, and well-defended Forge Worlds only had a total of less than 12,000 defenders on the whole planet and had to be rescued from utter defeat by a handful of friendly marines.

Playboyize
Playboyize

I think this entire battle was about one forge fane.
Or one of the most prominent, warlike, and well-defended Forge Worlds only had one forge fane?

Firespawn
Firespawn

MSU with sniper vets isn't already the norm
Base taxes don't actually incentivize large units since they make said units cost absurd amounts for large units. 225 points for a unit of nothing but bolter marines? 350 points if you give said marines a shitty 6++? 305 if you swap bolters for CCWs and give them power weapons?

The advantage of still using big units is easier access to feel no pain and more survivable units. If you have three tac blobs you only need three apothecaries for army wide FnP, if you have six ten man squads you need six apothecaries (two elite slots) and cannot give them FnP and take a rhino or drop pod.

Crazy_Nice
Crazy_Nice

No one is running multiple units of 5 veterans. Go find a clip-yack.

SomethingNew
SomethingNew

No one is running multiple units of 5 veterans
What is pride of the legion. But yeah people will totally start taking half a dozen tac squads now that they cost 100 points instead of 125 points.

VisualMaster
VisualMaster

I agree that regular tacticals are trash and should not have basetax.

I think that base tax should be based on what utility unit brings to table and additional unit cost for how much better unit performs in bigger numbers:
Tactical: Zero tax and low price for guy, since they are just bodies, and controlling objectives can be done by all other troops/allies.
Scout: Gives you unit that takes up table early game and gives bonuses in campaigns, but another guys are just dudes with bolters = Higher base cost, small pts for models
Veterans: flexible unit that is pretty good both in shooting and meele by capabilities of each model. Most picked trait gives them outflank. = high base costs, high cost for more guys.
Breachers: need pts split ZM/rveekyforums.com/thread/58738283/gamesegular game, since in regular game they are just quirky tacticals.
Assaults: mobile unit that can be used for harrasing or hard cc with some support.: High base price, moderate cost for more guys.
Special weapons: I would base the base cost on what weapon they are using. Like melta guys should have high base costs and moderate price for more guys (have cheaper melta than vets/breachers), since they introduce ability to wreck vehicles but more guys means mostly overkill. Plasma guys should have high/high, etc.

TalkBomber
TalkBomber

I think this entire battle was about one forge fane.
No, it was for the entire planet. You should read it again.

StrangeWizard
StrangeWizard

I think in HH 4 was info about Death Guard also attacking Mezoa and there was many battles on Mezoa, Ebon Drake wasn't the first or last

Sir_Gallonhead
Sir_Gallonhead

The issue with that is that every unit benefits from more guys more or less equally. If vets for example could take two special weapons with five guys I could understand the base price, but an upgraded unit of 10 veterans is twice as powerful as an upgraded unit of 5 veterans.

As for breachers, they are always garbage. They are okay in zone mortalis using that specific rite of war but that is only because of the +1 to invulnerable saves. The better solution is just to drop the ZM bonus and give them a special rule that allows them to have a better invulnerable save against shooting. For example.
Phalanx: Every model armed with a boarding shield in base contact with at least one other model with a boarding shield has their invulnerable save improved by 1 (so 6+ becomes 5+) against shooting attacks against them. So if you have a squad of breachers, phalanx warders, or immortals they all can get the good invul.

Overall though the fact remains that low tier infantry are simply not worth the cost, either they die too easily or they lack any significant damage output. In general vehicles such as tanks and dreadnoughts are more effective for their price than infantry squads and the introduction of cheap cortus dreads only exacerbated the issue. In part I think vehicles in general need price increases across the board with a few exceptions.

eGremlin
eGremlin

paired rather than twined
Seems like needles pedantry, tbqh, but I have nothing against you modeling them as different

Deadlyinx
Deadlyinx

Night Lords?

SniperWish
SniperWish

Yes.

Spazyfool
Spazyfool

Two units of veterans can be at two places, attack two units and not be destroyed in single salvo. They are better this way, therefore, there should be a tax.

RavySnake
RavySnake

Can someone give me a quick overview of the playstyle of the sons of Horus and word bearers.

I like the look of both armies and need help deciding

BunnyJinx
BunnyJinx

They also take up two slots which could potentially be better used for terminators, dreadnoughts, or legion elite units. Five vets have such limited firepower that the unit can safely be ignored or exterminated by even a basic assault unit should they be relegated towards taking objectives. Maybe they should have a tax, but it shouldn't be significant by any means.

Need_TLC
Need_TLC

Nothing to drag up cunt, I typed that up at the time and Veeky Forums glitched up as already mentioned. The only person who gives a fuck about the comparison is you, all I did was tell you you're off topic and you still keep bringing it up. Let's see whether you manage to retype it out again today.

girlDog
girlDog

Nothing to drag up cunt, I typed that up at the time and Veeky Forums glitched up as already mentioned.
It glitched up for two days?

I did was tell you you're off topic
And I wasn't

you still keep bringing it up
Once again I didn't drag up a pointless argument from a thread that died two days before.

Lets see whether you manage to retype the same pointless argument about it being off topic again.

RavySnake
RavySnake

How about you both shut up or post real content.

happy_sad
happy_sad

argumentative little shit
couldn't post for 2 days
Yeah, sure, "glitches".

VisualMaster
VisualMaster

Didn't mean to keep you waiting, I had to get sum sleep.

- All unit have a number of Roles attached to them. Roles can be almost anything you'd perceive as a coherent battlefield use, tactic, weapon commonality and so on. Roles could be as universal or army and faction-specific as you like.

- Armies are built out of Detachments. Each Detachment is made of 3-5 unit. The units in a Detachment must all have the following:
- All unit must have at least one Role in common with each other. This is the Detachment's Role.
- Each unit must have at least one Role unique to itself. This is the unit's Subrole within the Detachment.

- Armies can be built out of any number of detachments and of any sort. Including different Detachment types offers different benefits to the member units of the Detachment as well as to the overall force. There are benefits to taking a relatively consistent force as well as one with a strong Role theme.

So here's a shortlist of eight roles I reckon works well for pretty much any army.

- Fast
- Heavy
- Stealth
- Swathe
- Destroyer
- Battlefront
- Bolster
- Leader

You could also lift all the FO slots and use them as Roles just as easily, as well as those from classic Warhammer Fantasy (Core, Special, Rare, Hero, Lord) or barely renamed versions from rival products. I put together an entire list about an A4 in length of all the most common roles going into finickity detail (like "Flame" is a role, as is "Tank") that could be allowed if players really wanted that depth.

Summary:
Units have 2-6 roles
Armies made of any number of Detachments
Detachments made of 3-5 units
Detachment Role - all units must have it
Unit Subrole - must be unique in the Detachment

Results in flexible and characteristic army design, no tax units, all different focussed builds possible.

Example detachment in next poast as this one has ran out of room.

TalkBomber
TalkBomber

Example Detachment: Space Marine Legion, using the set of 8 roles provided earlier plus the following additions:

- Fly
- Melee
- Mass Numbers
- Tank
- Flame
- Supersonic

Fast Detachment
- 1 Land Speeder Squadron, 3 Speeders with Multimeltas (Fast, Fly, Destroyer)
- 1 Outrider Squadron, max size with TL Flamers (Fast, Swathe, Flame, Battlefront)
- 2 Legion Assault Squads with mixed upgrades (Fast, Fly, Battlefront, Mass Numbers, Melee)
- 1 Sicaran variant (Fast, Tank plus some other stuff)

Each unit's Subrole:
- Land Speeders: Destroyer
- Outriders: Flame
- Assault Squad A: Mass Numbers
- Assault Squad B: Battlefront
- Sicaran: Tank

Each unit Subrole is chiefly for the purpose of making the Detachment a balanced mix of units rather than a spam of a single type. Only a unit with 4 or more Subroles (with Assault Squads as an example) can be used to completely fill up a Detachment. The more commonplace and flexible a unit is intended to be the higher number of Roles it has, thus allowing it to
- turn up in more Detachments
- adopt more unit Subroles
- be used as the core of an entire Detachment

The Subroles may otherwise crop up as a bonus in a Rite of War, or if using a CP system, so eg/ "a single unit with the Destroyer Subrole can reroll failed AP rolls" or "a Detachment's Battleline unit can make a countercharge if a fellow from the Detachment is charged". Subroles are also flexible enough that they can be changed inbetween battles - the Land Speeder squadron could instead take the "Fly" subrole, which could let it do a Swooping Hawk jump once per battle.

Meanwhile the greater Detachment Role would provide a number of benefits. In this instance, a Fast detachment may be able to deploy last, or perform an en-mass 6" Scout manouevre, or Outflank deploy. A Fly detachment may be able to come in from several board angles at once, a Mass Numbers detachment may get Objective Secured and so on.

whereismyname
whereismyname

Bumping this, would be interested to hear what experienced user has to say.

Lunatick
Lunatick

Misunderstanding the topic, which is about removing unit Taxes. 8th edition has done this successfuly, but has still yet to capitalise on this by unfucking Tacs and Assault squads. Further it still keeps Objective Secured on Troops, which will continue to suppress their power relative to their points costs.

I typed out "largely, although not entirely" to indicate this, but on inspection I missed the "not", so that may have confused things. The issues with the objective system in 40K and 30K meanwhile is a question for another day.

viagrandad
viagrandad

I think it would be funny. Use them as Chymeria and you can excuse using the one strong set of BS rules by using the rubbish armour type. Either way it looks right for the Reiver models.

WebTool
WebTool

Ultimately the issues with the Troops is something that goes beyond points costing.

Working within the FO framework of 30K, I'd actually just make them a lot nastier in combat.

- 40K of 7th ed and older is dead so there's no need to maintain fidelity any more. Bite the bullet and make basic Bolters and Bolt Pistols stronger. Let them reroll 1s to wound or something, because honestly no unit likes to have these weapons more than the minimum they need them.
- Unfuck Breacher squad costs, because at the minute individual Breachers cost no more than a Tac but the basic squad cost is way higher. Breachers at full strength are roughly on a par with Tacs but at small sizes they're rubbish.
- Chainswords need to have Shred basic, fuck it. Assault Squads and Despoiler Squads need the boost and everyone else is replacing it with a Chainaxe or better the moment they can.
- Support Squads need individual weapon options changing in cost more than their basic costs. Rotor Cannons should be their free cost and the unit should cost 65pts and 10pts per additional model.
- Recons - what is this unit meant to accomplish in the game anyway? Forge World is horrible at designing scout and stealth units. They need to have some ability to disappear and reappear a few turns later within 24" of their previous spot if they're in cover/out of LOS, and have Hit and Run to escape melees.

w8t4u
w8t4u

I'll be honest, reflecting upon Breachers I think all their features should just get moved to Tacs.

- Purchase Boarding Shields for everyone at X pts
- Purchase Void-Hardened for everyone at X pts
- Same special weapons options
- If the squad doesn't include any special weapons or Breacher Shields, it gets Fury of the Legions

While we're at it, we can role Assault Squads in as well. There's no reason not to do so at this stage, save a page on repeating stats and choices on fundamentally identical units.

5mileys
5mileys

Better believe it, Veeky Forums's been disagreeing with Waterfox big time.

And I wasn't
I've killed this point repeatedly and you've had nothing to say for it. Make your case for the chat having about grav viability in general, or shut up.

I didn't drag up a pointless argument from a thread that died two days before.
And fortunately, neither did I.

Lets see whether you manage to retype the same pointless argument about it being off topic again.
Not going to happen as I don't have whatever brain issue you're rocking.

I've been busy in this thread for ages m8, dunno about you

Carnalpleasure
Carnalpleasure

Here, have the state of the Warhammer Fantasy thread that's currently up. When a thread looks like this, there's nothing I can do besides hit F5 a bunch and hope it gets better. Captcha doesn't work in this state, and sometimes it does persist for days.

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King_Martha
King_Martha

It's like you want to kill your laptop.

Burnblaze
Burnblaze

The fuck are you talking about

Poker_Star
Poker_Star

females

ZeroReborn
ZeroReborn

vlc

whereismyname
whereismyname

What?

Evil_kitten
Evil_kitten

being bothered about your music player
Lol, if that's all that's behind then I don't know what to say. VLC's not perfect, who gives a shit.

SomethingNew
SomethingNew

Not going to happen as I don't have whatever brain issue you're rocking.
He says while making ever more pointless statements.

And fortunately, neither did I.
Responding to a post made two days earlier
Whether or not it was because your internet provider or whatever shit out on you, you responded to a post two days earlier and two threads ago.

Supergrass
Supergrass

restating the same stupid you just posted
Lol. Keep on cowin'

Techpill
Techpill

Detachment Role - all units must have it
Unit Subrole - must be unique in the Detachment
This seems like forced diversity for the sake of forced diversity. Like I can take 3-5 destroyer units (lets assume sicarans fit this role) but I cannot take multiple sicaran venators and create what amounts to an tank destroyer platoon. While this might help alleviate unit spam my autism dislike such schizophrenic armies where I might have one medusa battery, a thanatar, and a krios venator as my "destroyer" assets instead of three medusas in independent batteries.

Personally I tend to make my armies using a sort of systematic detachment like system, although more out of autism than anything else. For example instead of say spamming medusas I might have a special "artillery detachment" lead by a secondary commander with a bodyguard. For example if I wanted to add three medusa batteries the detachment's part of my list might look like.

Magos Reductor: About 200 points
Reductor Techpriests: About 150 points
Medusa: About 140 points
Medusa: About 140 points
Medusa: About 140 points

The fluff idea being that this magos was put in charge of the artillery by his senior commander. Thus I give him a techpriest bodyguard so him and his unit can act as a fire support unit instead of wandering off away from his unit. Outside of extenuating circumstances I always try to keep something akin to cohesion within a detachment eg. 6" max between any unit in a detachment and another unit in the detachment. A similar system might be able to work as a wider concept, except the cohesion is more about buffs than anything mandatory (eg. the magos can abandon his guns but now his gunners aren't being given cohesive fire directions by him). Of course under that system you pretty much just end up copying 8th edition's detachment system without the battalion or brigade detachments.

Evilember
Evilember

I didn't respond to a two day old post
Pointed out that you are lying
LOL you just keep repeating the same point

WebTool
WebTool

Please shut up about this. You are being retarded

New_Cliche
New_Cliche

I've been busy in this thread for ages m8, dunno about you
Then keep going with the good stuff and stop with the useless shit.

Nojokur
Nojokur

Fuck is this with Grav Shit.

Unless you have a range of 36" or better you pretty much suck for AT purposes if you can't move before hand.

Assault or Relentless means you can keep up and redeploy.

But Heavy hahahahayouhavegottobeshittingme.jpg

I love Grav rapiers, but find their limited Range and LoS to be more an issue.

What scrub suggests Rhino Grav Marines are a thing should sit down and have a word with themselves.

Next thing, we'll hear that Breachers a good Anti Armour unit.

Fuzzy_Logic
Fuzzy_Logic

That mentions his shield as well, so you could do shield & axe phalanx warder style with a second axe hanging from the belt.

SomethingNew
SomethingNew

A scout squad with a vox can be used for accurate Deepstriking terminators in a list build around that.

DeathDog
DeathDog

lets assume sicarans fit this role
I cannot take multiple sicaran venators
There are two strange assumptions that go against the system as described, plus a few mistakes.

For a start, as a conversion to this system has not been done for any part of 30K, you really cannot assume that all Sicarans fit this role, no.

Second, you seem to be assuming that all Sicarans would have the exact same set of Roles, which makes no sense. The point is that different units get different labels. The task becomes a lot easier when you have more labels of course, I think the list of 14 I gave above could afford to be expanded a little.

The first hard mistake is that you cannot take multiple Sicaran Venators. The system makes it clear you can take multiple units per detachment, provided the unit in question has three or more roles. If for instance the Sicaran Venator had the roles (Fast, Tank, Destroyer), then you could two of them in a detachment.
Fast Detachment, Subroles Tank and Destroyer
Tank Detachment, Subroles Destroyer and Fast
Destroyer Detachment, Subroles Fast and Tank

Following from this, yes, you absolutely *can* create your dedicated Tank Destroyer Platoon. It might not be possible to create a block of just one unit exclusively, but it's definitely doable. Remember that even a unit has just 2 Role, you can still take a full third of your army as just that unit. In other words, this concern

one medusa battery, a thanatar, and a krios venator as my "destroyer" assets instead of three medusas in independent batteries.
Is completely resolved. You can totally have them in separate detachments as much as in one. Note that you don't even have to deploy a detachment as one block, or all in one place on the board - unless a RoW specifies of course - the detachment makes a difference for overall army composition and for the Detachment Role bonus.

Running out of space so tbc

iluvmen
iluvmen

Question on Fulmentarus Terminators: what's their best loadout?

I assume you're pretty much always taking them with cyclone missile launchers, as they're otherwise just more expensive terminators with BS5 combi-bolters. Likewise, I assume full squads are the way to go, to optimize the chances of tank hunter and -1 cover.

I'm kind of puzzled on melee weapons, though. On the one hand, I'm tempted to give them power fists, as those extra 50 points don't really matter when the rest of the squad already costs 700. On the other hand, maybe a fist/maul combo is better as some of them will get shot first anyway?

Attached: PapaSmurfs.jpg (900 KB, 3176x1806)

Methnerd
Methnerd

The little autistic (lol) detachment you spell out there would work very nicely in the Role system. As mentioned earlier, Roles can be as broad or specific and universal or idiosyncratic as you like. So "Siege" could be a Role type, or even "Reductor" itself could be one.

All of those units would definitely have one or both of those Roles in common, and you could put that very nicely into an army of choice. The Magos Reductor would naturally take the Subrole "Leader", letting him buff a single detachment-mate within 6". The Techpriest coven would have Subrole "Condition". They could have a reroll of 1s for assistive actions to other members of the detachments. Finally each Medusa would have a unique Subrole: say "Tank", "Destroyer" and "Indirect". Or if all three Medusas are one battery, they'd just pick one of those roles, which makes more sense desu. Such Subroles may or may not have a bonus depending on the context, as the overall Role Detachment is the one that matters more.

This reminds of a point I meant to include in part two of the system synopsis.

Certain units bought as a set count as just a single unit when placed in a Detachment.

Talons
Certain units are bought in multiples, but operate separately in game. Generally vehicles and monstrous creatures of a moderate size plus some characters, these "Talons" count as just one unit when placed in a Detachment. Of course, players can feel free to treat each separate member of a Talon as a separate unit for these purposes.

Support
Consistent formost of transports, while also expanding to include retinues and other minor assist elements, semi-mobile defence lines and ammo caches and so on, Support units count as a modification to the main unit. Some such units can be taken on their own, but others can only be taken as a support, indicated by a "Dedicated" label. So purchasing a Rhino for a Squad would count as a squad upgrade and apply the "Tank" role to the unit.

TurtleCat
TurtleCat

So one narrow role, heavily dependent on the rest of the list? It's a start but the unit can do better.

StrangeWizard
StrangeWizard

Lol now you're saying that I'm lying? Fuck you, you little demented shit, you're not worth the breath. May you be a pox unto some other thread.

Lunatick
Lunatick

Nowt retarded about it, tell the retard to read better.

takes2long
takes2long

That's where you're wrong shithead, idiots need telling off wherever they may squat.

Gigastrength
Gigastrength

Are you high on clip-yaks again? You seem to be talking to yourself.

nowt
NOOT NOOT

Methnerd
Methnerd

Why is it that you never use commas.

And then you seperate each clause with a line break.

And you ask questions but don't use question marks.

BlogWobbles
BlogWobbles

You've responded to three different things, and the wrong way around

Also no, Pingu is glorious, now is not the time for him.

JunkTop
JunkTop

There's always time for pingu. Shame on you.

Carnalpleasure
Carnalpleasure

hey /HHG/
Would you recommend breachers for Iron Warriors? I figure they might be nice for holding down objectives

farquit
farquit

In Templar they are described as "Twin axes"

Twin seems to imply they are the same.

He also keeps them mag-locked to the back of his shield, .

5mileys
5mileys

NO, as the high priest of Pingu I forbid inappropriate Pingu use (as well as all the garbage made after the bedevilled BBC fired Bonomi)

Deadlyinx
Deadlyinx

Don't, the armour mark makes no sense in 30k.

Playboyize
Playboyize

Inappropriate pingu use? You can't handle inappropriate pingu use.

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PackManBrainlure
PackManBrainlure

Lol now you're saying that I'm lying?
You are
I didn't respond to a post from a long dead thread
Clearly did
Whether or not you couldn't post in the appropriate thread a normal person would have let the subject die with the thread.

WebTool
WebTool

Horus Heresy video game trilogy when?

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haveahappyday
haveahappyday

Breachers are the worst unit in the whole game. 25 points is not an appropriate price for tacticals trading fury of the legion for a 6+ invul. If anything breachers are a downgrade over tacticals.

TechHater
TechHater

Alright that's random but cute, it gets a pass

Stark_Naked
Stark_Naked

Literally what the fuck are you going on about you retard, you're literally talking gibberish, just shut up

takes2long
takes2long

Thanks! ill skip these then.
Would you suggest just using tacticals to hold points then?

Garbage Can Lid
Garbage Can Lid

I mean tacticals are cheap for a lot of wounds, with 20 tacs and an apothecary being hard to shhot down. Just remember to protect them from melee units who will tear right through them.

Nojokur
Nojokur

Cheers! will do! I guess giving them chainswords could help a small bit depending on the situation?

Evilember
Evilember

IW have pretty easy access to Terminators with Golg. If you don't mind using him Terminators are generally the second best Troops choice you can get.

Lord_Tryzalot
Lord_Tryzalot

You've got too many tabs open, firefox/chrome must be using 6 or 7 gigs of ram, and then you have a bunch of programs open, and noscript active. If the site doesn't load, try not opening a hundred tabs and just open 1.

FastChef
FastChef

Ah, i wasnt going to use Golg but ill keep that in mind, cheers

General Plan was to use three tac squads with apothecaries, a warsmith and siege breaker, iron havocs, one quad mortar squad with phosphex and from there im still trying to work things out

Crazy_Nice
Crazy_Nice

does

this

?

TrIgGeR

u

askme
askme

You're not wrong, but worst unit either Recon Squads, or a Malcador.

Dreamworx
Dreamworx

A trilogy wouldn't even get us to the dropsite massacre these days.

Spamalot
Spamalot

Destroyers and Headhunters exist, user.

Lunatick
Lunatick

I honestly don't see the point of this system since it doesn't actually provide any limits beyond you cannot take all of one unit.

For example does anything prevent you from taking four detachments each with two quad mortar batteries and one medusa with a final detachment (maybe leader) giving you a siege breaker and some other crap to round it out?

This seems like in addition to invalidating many rites of war (for example any that effect the FoC) it does nothing to actually increase the value of often ignored units. Why bother with troops at all under this system if I have no need to take them? I can just spam tanks, artillery, and elite units, no need to even bother with troops or HQ choices dragging my army down.

takes2long
takes2long

Tell me how many tabs I have open
Not even using Firefox lmao, stated that earlier on
Less than 6 gb of ram
The programs are using diddly-squat memory
Even if I did have a lot of stuff open, only Veeky Forums is affected

Gigastrength
Gigastrength

no fullstops
a question mark
words in the wrong order
one word a line
In other words, nothing like the retard's post
Try harder

King_Martha
King_Martha

Incorrect, as it requires armies to take coherent formations and rewards them for doing so. Regardless, "you cannot take all of one unit" - is literally THE entire point. Like this is literally the only reason solely to create an FO chart-like limitation, to prevent spamming.

For example does anything prevent you from taking four detachments each with two quad mortar batteries and one medusa with a final detachment (maybe leader) giving you a siege breaker and some other crap to round it out?
Absolutely nothing. This mean that the units would have to be actually balanced to the point that this wouldn't be broken, which is the point. Taking an army composed of overwhelmingly mono-specialised units should be punishing within the mechanics of the game, rather than being prevented from doing so arbitrarily and then having those units be tantalisingly OP.

invalidating many rites of war
Well of course it does, it completely overhauls the damn FO chart system. What did you expect? Several RoWs would be redundant with the system, but the others could be reworked very easily.

Why bother with troops at all under this system if I have no need to take them
This is where reading the thread >is your friend user. The point is that the former-Troops choices are good units that you want to take, and not just a tax you HAVE to take. If this confuses you then follow the advice and read the thread.

SomethingNew
SomethingNew

Recon squads don't cost 200 points minimum and destroyers actually have offensive capabilities. Breachers serve no role. Also Malcador can be AV 14 with a flare shield, demolisher cannon, battle cannon, and 6 hull points. Played right it can be harder to kill than a spartan.
Objective holders
They are very very rarely better than tactical marines (are all your objectives sitting in the open?) when it comes to survivability and cost far more.

Taking forward objectives
Their only transport are land raiders leading to the former issue of cost but to a far greater extent. Just take 20 assault marines.

Killing Enemies
They are like tactical marines without fury of the legion. If you are lucky they can kill a whopping 5 3+ marines in a turn if the enemy is within close range.

Mandatory troop choice
They are such a massive point investment that they are horrible mandatory troop choices. They are actually the most expensive troop choice in the game on a per wound basis ignoring rites of war.

Garbage Can Lid
Garbage Can Lid

I guess the real answer to the question of "why do Breachers exist?" is that the models look good and the concept is cool, but Forge World couldn't find a way to make them mechanically interesting or viable at all.

From this, we have a new thought experiment: What steps wud u take to completely change how Breachers work? You can change anything about the unit's stats, rules and options in the name of:
making the unit more distinct
making the unit more viable
general balance
Feel free to completely rewrite how Boarding Shields work or VH armour for instance, or just bite the bullet and introduce seperate rules for different PA marks.

girlDog
girlDog

Like this is literally the only reason solely to create an FO chart-like limitation, to prevent spamming.
Except it doesn't actually help that. Using the example you posted lets say I wanted to spam assault marines (simply so I can stay consistent with key words and not have to make up key words for good units). I could just have

Fast Detachment
-1 Land speeder squadron of 1 naked land speeder (destroyer)
-Assault squad A: Mass Numbers
-Assault Squad B: Battlefront

And then another detachment
-1 Land speeder squadron of 1 naked land speeder (destroyer)
-Assault squad A: Mass Numbers
-Assault Squad B: Battlefront

This gets even easier with units with multiple key words, for example in your proposted fast detachment I don't see what would prevent me from just taking three outrider squadrons (designating them swathe, flame, and battlefront respectively) in a single detachment. Now, I very well be misunderstanding your system, but I don't see what prevents me from just spamming 3 unit detachments that just involve the same 2 or 3 units with a cheap one thrown in to pad it out.

the former-Troops choices are good units that you want to take
Breachers and tacticals don't suddenly become good because they are an option instead of being mandatory. This would just make the original troops nigh worthless, after all why take 10 tactical marines for 125 points when I always have the option of taking 10 veterans for 160 points gaining access to sniper, outflank, and a host of wargear options.

Illusionz
Illusionz

Actually that last aside gives me a little idea: an option for Praetors is for them to upgrade their Artificer armour to a masterwork copy of a specific armour mark. This lets them claim a nice rule and adds some character with no disruption to the rest of the game (if you care about that lol).

Masterwork Mk II Crusade-Pattern Armour
The bearer has a 2+ armour save and the Crusader special rule. Should the Bearer already benefit from Crusader for whatever reason, they roll an additional dice for Run and Sweeping Advance rolls and discard the lowest.

Masterwork Mk III Iron-Pattern Armour
The bearer has a 2+ armour save and Feel No Pain (6+). All saving throws the bearer makes against attacks that don't use a regular shot (including Blast and Template weapons, and any attack based on an aura or line of effect) the fail may be rerolled. Attacks with the Rending rule merely reduce the bearer's armour save to a 3+, although these attacks may still ignore the save if their AP is 3 or better.

Masterwork Mk IV Maximus-Pattern Armour
The bearer has a 2+ armour save and the Fleet special rule. For every phase of the game, the bearer gets two "Parry" counters, which they can use to avoid damage. After the bearer suffers a hit of any kind, they can choose to expend a Parry counter. The bearer then takes a WS test, and if they pass the attack is negated and has no effect.

Masterwork Mk V Heresy-Pattern Armour
The bearer has a 2+ armour save and the Rending special rule.

Masterwork Mk VI Corvus-Pattern Armour
The bearer has a 2+ armour save and the Night Vision, Acute Senses and Ignores Cover special rules. The bearer also benefits from Stealth, Scout and Infiltrate, but if they are part of a unit or aboard a transport then they can only benefit from them if the unit or transport in question also has those rules.

VisualMaster
VisualMaster

Congrats, you noticed that Assault Squads and Outriders happen to have a high number of Roles. Could This Be Intentional??? It's almost like these are meant to be common place flexible units that could turn up in many forces in large numbers, and are not a highly specialised tool like Land Speeders (with 3 Roles).

Regardless, you may care to note that, yet again, *the 30K Legion Crusade list* (and none other for that matter) have been processed into the system. All of the examples given are provisional. This is genuinely a good case point for having much more Roles than the limited set I posted desu. Some of those terms used are too broad and coarse, and access to more precise terms help focus detachment building.

Breachers and tacticals don't suddenly become good because they are an option instead of being mandatory.
Yes this is exactly the not-having-read-the-thread-ness of your posts that I am talking about. You need to stop ignoring things and start reading threads when you are told to, then you will see that this point is backwards.

Spazyfool
Spazyfool

Red helms
I see we've got some rule breakers on our hands here.

happy_sad
happy_sad

Provisional points:

Masterwork Crusade
15pts
Masterwork Iron
20pts
Masterwork Maximum
40pts
Masterwork Heresy
15pts
Masterwork Corvus
15pts

BunnyJinx
BunnyJinx

*the 30K Legion Crusade list* (and none other for that matter) have been processed into the system.
So can you show me the whole system? It is hard for me to show how a system might be broken if I only have a few examples of it in practice.

kizzmybutt
kizzmybutt

What do you mean, "the whole system"? That is the whole system you numpty.

What exactly did you think "the 30K Legion Crusade list (and none other for that matter) have been processed into the system" meant? Because it DIDN'T mean "I've taken the time to completely convert the entire 30K Legion Crusade List into the system, and am choosing to lie about this on Veeky Forums".

For a start, the fact that the specific Roles themselves are total open as thing stand should be a clue to the fact that this task is far from finalised. You seem interested, how about you and I have a go in this thread. Or least for a few minute anyway, I need to sleep soon.

Here's that chockablock list of all the reasonable roles I think you could apply to the 30K setting that I referenced towards a bunch earlier. Nothing is specific to the setting of course, but that could change if eg/ Daemon were to work into the discourse.

Fast
Superfast
Airborne
Patrol
Heavy
Superheavy
Cannon
Artillery
Bombardment
Machinegun
Rifle
Grenadier
Sniper
Demolitions
Anti-Tank
Swathe
Melee
Duellist
Shield
Assassin
Saboteur
Infiltrator
Recon
Scout
Espionage
Vanguard
Rearguard
Construction
Engineer
Medical
Conditioning
Powerhouse
Specialist
Leader
Spirit
Psyker
Agent
Battlefront
Spearhead
Impact
Bolster
Shock-Effect
Nexus
Toolkit
Multiform
Communications
Flames
Toxic
Veteran
Tank

The crunchy is literally going through each unit in the Legiones army list and applying 2-6 of these Roles to each. Care is taken to ensure units don't have redundant Role, that wildly different units don't have identical profiles, that only very common place units have 4 or more Role as well as general comparatives to ensure each role is used consistently.

Oh yeh and Roles change based on the composition of individual units. A Praetor on foot, in Terminator armour, with a Jump Pack, Bike, all different Roles. Special support squads with Flamers vs Plasma, different Roles.

See why I haven't got around to doing this *just* yet?

PackManBrainlure
PackManBrainlure

You could make a trilogy of Istvaan III alone.
Assault on the Choral City (landing up to the virus bombing)
Galaxy in Flames (immediate aftermath of the virus bombing)
Beaten but Unbowed (final resistance efforts up til the city is leveled from orbit)

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Need_TLC
Need_TLC

Another way to address that concern at the end of the post: "broken" is a facet of the design of a system, not its application. There is no such thing as "broken practice", that's invalid.

There's bad application, misapplication, these are different things. The entire thrust of this speculative discussion has been that the FO system is fundamentally broken and cannot be "reapplied" to fix the issues it raises in the game (namely that Troops become inevitable shit as they're a tax unit), and to replace it with a non-broken system.

Playboyize
Playboyize

DESU this would be the best approach if done properly. Release trilogies of games set across various points of time and space in the Heresy, each covering a major conflict. Towards the middle release generic games for anything-goes conflicts, and above all else wrap the motherfucker up with the Siege of Terra.

AwesomeTucker
AwesomeTucker

That is the whole system you numpty.
Every unit and all the key words every unit has. You seem to be imagining your system is infallible in concept when it does little to nothing to actually prevent spam just "well you have to take another unit" which is no different than the FoC. If I want to take 3 quad mortar batteries with phosphex I still need at least three additional units, if I want to take three medusas I still need my basic troops. Your system allows spamming in the same way while allowing the mandatory unit to be at least tangentially related.

Lord_Tryzalot
Lord_Tryzalot

"broken" is a facet of the design of a system
Well duh, but the best way to find flaws with a system is to purposely break it. If you are making a homebrew class for an RPG or a homebrew unit for a war game the best way to balance is to tell people "try and make the most broken build possible using this."

cum2soon
cum2soon

Every unit and all the key words every unit has
Jesus fuck, god, can you read? That's the ***Application*** of the system you're talking. See how I used three asterisks there to draw your attention to that word? Good, now pay notice to it. That mean that "the system is is the set of rules used to determine army composition", and not "here's the specifics for this given army". God you would have to be hellbent on selective reading to miss this, it's like in giant flashing neon letters for you and everything.

You seem to be imagining your system is infallible in concept
Jesus Christ, if you could point out one issue with it I'd be grateful.

it does little to nothing to actually prevent spam
You stated your belief in this, and I showed you how that's wrong. If you disagree then prove me wrong or drop it. Really fucking spoonfeeding how disagreement and critique works here.

just "well you have to take another unit" which is no different than the FoC.
It's completely fucking different because ***the kind of unit taken can be almost ANYTHING depending on the Detachment***. That's the entire critical point that seems to be flying way over your head here. The compulsory balancing unit in a Fast detachment would be completely different from one in an artillery detachment.

Your system allows spamming in the same way while allowing the mandatory unit to be at least tangentially related.
Precisely.

iluvmen
iluvmen

You haven't broken shit however. You've brought how the system *could* be broken if misapplied. Well fucking duh mate, of course you could break a vacuum cleaner if you used it to suck up gravel. At the moment, you're not "making the most broken possible build", you're noticing that a provisional item for the rules that I made up on the spot, in a vacuum no less, may not be balanced.

If someone made an effort to apply Roles to the Legions list following this system, and they made a mess of it, then it could be a trainwreck no different to any other system. "Trainwreck" is the default for anything artificial, it's the exceptions that count because they can stay on track for more than 5 minutes.

Now, would you care to start going with me to make a functioning Legion list in the system or not? Frankly you don't have any right to complain if you don't do the best to make it work. I'll happy do the task of creating a setup myself at some time in my spare time whenever, but if you're motivated to axually test this system then let's give this a shot... maybe tomorrow. I need to sleep soon.

StonedTime
StonedTime

Make that tomorrow for definite, I sleepy now. Remember I'm only harsh on you because I love you user, you need to think at least as hard about this system as I've done to see what it can and can't do.

Need_TLC
Need_TLC

That mean that "the system is is the set of rules used to determine army composition",
And the system used doesn't seem to actually offer any advantage. You can still potentially spam units, you can still potentially take broken builds, and you still have little inherent reason to take core units like tactical marines. Even if you made breachers or destroyers fit in every category they would never be taken outside of fluff reasons since they are absolute garbage units. Tactical marines likewise would almost never be taken as you could just as easily shoehorn in a different related unit which would be less than 125 points minimum.

You've brought how the system *could* be broken if misapplied.
Because you have no specifics to your system. You cannot break a vague concept.

It is like me saying
Well the solution to the FoC is obvious, lets scrap the whole system, let people take whatever they want, but prices scale with the number taken. So taking one unit with upgrades is about 200 points, taking the second one may be 25% more, the third one 50% more, the fourth one 100% more, the fifth one 150% more, so on and so forth. Oh but you are saying this doesn't actually prevent spam because some spammable units are cheap? Well I never claimed how much any specific units scale in price. Oh you are saying that this doesn't give roles to shitty units? Well maybe I will have the first few units have a negative modifier. Since I have no actual system you cannot actually call any part of it.

Why even mention a system if it is such a vague concept that your only defence is that you haven't made any actual progress on it?

likme
likme

Now, would you care to start going with me to make a functioning Legion list in the system or not?
Fuck it why not?

TurtleCat
TurtleCat

Is there a reason we don’t see many varied loadouts for Contemptors? I have yet to see anyone run a Heavy Conversion Beamer, Plasma Cannon, or Autocannon setup; yet see just a scarce amount or Multi meltas or Volkite Culverins.

I know we all love the Kheres, but is there an answer for this? I’m trying to force myself to start taking them with some of the above weapons or even just twin fists for the sake of variety but I’m really keen to know what everyone else thinks.

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massdebater
massdebater

Just no reason to honestly. With the amount of Armored Ceramite that exists, a single multi melta is kinda useless. Plasma cannons are bad. HCB is a weapon you want to keep your distance with on a unit that benefits from assault (same issue with Lerneans). I personally run dual fists (CCW and Chainfist) on my Cortus and Drop pod him in.

Methshot
Methshot

Is there a reason we don’t see many varied loadouts for Contemptors?
Simply better options generally exist.

Heavy Conversion Beamer
While this is extremely good it requires a long LOS. Even if you can get that distant LOS none of the other weapons synergize with it. Ultimately you are better off with a predator with a heavy conversion beamer.

Plasma Cannon
Puts the user at risk from gets hot plus better AP 2 options exist, chief among them being the medusa and vindicator, which are cheaper and can do more potential damage. Also plasma predator does the same for cheaper.

Autocannon
Better options simply exist. For 10 points more you can get twice as many shots at -1 strength (twin-linked culverin) or 3 times as many shots and rending for -1 strength and losing twin-linked (which is almost redundant at BS 5)

Lord_Tryzalot
Lord_Tryzalot

Speaking of Dreadnoughts, is running a pair of Kheres Assault Cannon/Havoc Launcher Contemptor Mortis typically overkill? I have one that works to great effect, but would doubling up simply be pointless?

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Poker_Star
Poker_Star

No, just no, never try to "balance" or "create" wargear again

BunnyJinx
BunnyJinx

metallic Imperial Fists like AL/TS

Yes or no?

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Supergrass
Supergrass

Post booty

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Stark_Naked
Stark_Naked

A shiny candy coat colour might look nice, but not gold or an actual metallic colour.

Booteefool
Booteefool

Horus heresy is over, its not coming back, just let the threads die and get on with your lives

StonedTime
StonedTime

This seems largely redundant and kind of stupid. High quality armour might improve dexterity but it won't make you faster or rending. Although that being said I might be interested in specialist armour for example.
Praetors and siege breakers can take hardened artificer armour
Praetors and vigilators can take silence (not sure of a better term) artificer armour giving them infiltrate and move through cover (like scout sergeants if the rest of their squad takes carapace armour) but cannot take a bike, jetbike, or jump pack

Not huge game changers, not overwhelming changes, but they could be nice little things that can make certain models fit in with their "companions" better and allow for some background for your praetors. If your praetor is a siege master he might wear hardened armour, if he is a stealth expert he may wear armour built for dexterity and low weight.

BinaryMan
BinaryMan

Go fuck yourself with a cactus, just because something is dead mean we should let it be forgotten ?

farquit
farquit

Thanks for the heads up, what should I be playing now oh wise-user

Methshot
Methshot

Warhammer 40k, Age of Guilliman. Make sure to pick up a box of Primaris Space Marine Intercessors tm.

Firespawn
Firespawn

hahahahahaha, no. How about you play your game, I'll play mine, and if you're not interested you just fuck off to your thread and then we never need to talk again and everyone's a winner.

GoogleCat
GoogleCat

I wasn't the guy you were originally talking to and I was being sarcastic. I kind of figured you might pick that up between Age of Guilliman, buy the new marines, and tm.

Lord_Tryzalot
Lord_Tryzalot

I did register the sarcasm, it was more aimed at I figured it was a different poster but he would have likely said something similar and my response would have been the same, you just let me speed up the cycle.

Booteefool
Booteefool

Not playing Kabal
Making offers people can refuse
Now go home and get your fucking shine box.

hairygrape
hairygrape

Not terrible looking, all things considered, but I'd like to see how it looks with the rest of its colors too. Additional colors to add contrast should balance things out and make it really pop. Right now, its just a Custard training dummy.

DeathDog
DeathDog

he can't ™ without copy-paste

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Snarelure
Snarelure

Sup nerds, evalu8, r8, maybe ber8 but pls no h8 my Raven Guard dregs list. The idea is that a Forgelord, left behind on an Astartes cruiser of little significance, charged with making sure the place was nice and tidy when the Legion got back from kicking dicks on Isstvan V, found that his job of caretaker just got a lot more proactive.

Here is what he's managed to scrape together to go kick some traitor dick.

Forgelord
- Terminator armour, volkite charger, power axe, rad grenades, cortex controller and cyber familiar

Praevian consul
- Artificer armour, volkite serpenta, power fist, bolter, melta bombs and cameleoline

10 Tac Marines with extra CCW's in a Rhino armed with a multimelta
- Sergeant has ArtArmour, a combimelta and meltabombs

15 Assault Marines, 3 with power axes
- Sergeant has ArtArmour, powerfist & meltabombs
- Apothecary with powersword

10 Tac Support squad with plasma guns
- Sergeant has ArtArmour

3 Castellax with Darkfire cannons
- All have flamers and enhanced targeting arrays

5 Vorax
- 1 with an irad cleanser, all with enhanced targeting arrays

Leviathan dread in drop pod
- Siege claw, grv-flux bombard, volkite calivers, phosphex discharger

The idea is the Forgelord stomps up the middle with his Castellax charges, soaking up punishment and generally being a huge distraction. His sneaky protege, the Praevian, outflanks with his pack of stealth Vorax and takes care of business in the backfield.

The assault squad are able to support the bigjob in whatever he's fighting, or they can go and pick fights with opportune targets. The plasma support squad can fuck up whatever looks juicy, and I'm relying on infiltrate to have them in a good location to do so.

The Leviathan dread in a pod is lazy, I know, but go fuck yourselves, what a model. And the pod took fucking ages to put together satisfactorily, so I'm going to damn well use it. Although, thinking about it now, perhaps the siege drill and melta lance would be better.

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haveahappyday
haveahappyday

when I do it it's called being accurate, when others do it it's called being pedantic
tbqhfamalamadingdong

Crazy_Nice
Crazy_Nice

God Bless Your Autism.

SomethingNew
SomethingNew

Howdy, I play 40k regularly enough that I'd like to try to make a HH army.

I play EC in 40k, and have some forge world items, and I'm considering ordering more.

What are the must haves for a TAC 30k list? I have Eidolon, 2 squads of kakophoni (and a lot of 40k noise marines), and the usual set of rhinos.

whereismyname
whereismyname

Oh wow Will Smith son is a heresy fan, cool.

Harmless_Venom
Harmless_Venom

Is there a specific name for that type of power fist with claws? The only similar example is the hand of horus.

StonedTime
StonedTime

Your Kakophoni can be used as troops if you unlock them in a Rite of War, The Third Company Elite. You can use Eidolon as your commander to unlock the Rite. Add Apothecaries to the Kakaophoni for extra resilience and a rhino for mobility.

Consider getting some assault marines since EC are all about getting the charge, and gets bonuses for that.
Contemptors are always good.
Phoenix guard are meh.
Palatines are squishy but can hit hard and fast with jump packs and a mix of phoenix spears, power weapons, or just rending charnable sabers.
Fulgrim is pretty decent, and can choose his warlord trait, which is really flexible.

What FW stuff do you have?

RavySnake
RavySnake

What FW stuff do you have?
2 kakophoni
2 rhinos
eidolon
palatine squad
5 termies
contemptor w/ cbeams (look like blastmasters for 40k)
land raider

[email protected] mark 4 marines

haveahappyday
haveahappyday

Well whoever suggested different sized axes is wrong either way.

JunkTop
JunkTop

This.

Rann has twin axes even just based upon his heraldry alone.

Bidwell
Bidwell

How many points is this supposed to be?

fuck the multimelta off the rhino, waste of points

For the price of plasma tacs I'd definitely say invest in at least a rhino for them, otherwise they're going to get bent over by artillery heavy lists

Also you're looking a little bit lacking in anti-armour, especially if the leviathan gets taken out

and stop namefagging

CodeBuns
CodeBuns

I'm not even sure broken 3E Daemon Angron Datasheet could easily stomp HH Russ easily. As for HH Angron.... Russ was not above using Long Fangs or whatever the fuck they're called. That was Angron's bugbear.

Emberburn
Emberburn

It's perfectly fine to have a name.

FastChef
FastChef

Lacks anti-armour
Fuck the multimelta off the rhino
??????????????

DeathDog
DeathDog

What is armoured ceramite

Fuzzy_Logic
Fuzzy_Logic

As for HH Angron
Angron beat the shit out of Russ when Russ confronted him over the butcher's nails. Yeah yeah le Angron got surrounded meme, but he defeated Russ either way.

Fried_Sushi
Fried_Sushi

Your forge Lord is gonna get sniped/picked off going up the middle alone. Bad idea

Lord_Tryzalot
Lord_Tryzalot

boooooo

Poker_Star
Poker_Star

looks cool but it doesn't feel like IF.

New_Cliche
New_Cliche

It's not everywhere on every vehicle in a list.

Soft_member
Soft_member

You still should be prepared to face some of it. Throw in a couple strength 10 guns or some armourbane weapons. Also if the multimelta rhino is threatening to anything important the opponent will kill it turn 1.

Inmate
Inmate

It’s yellow lacquer paint and the Imperial Fists spray yellow lacquer paint over their ceramite. See

TreeEater
TreeEater

Looks like someone is fishing for a lawsuit...
kickstarter.com/projects/6482328/leon-johnson-the-patriarch-95mm-miniature

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Raving_Cute
Raving_Cute

And the system used doesn't seem to actually offer any advantage.
Alright, I've lined this out pretty damn clearly several time now so I'm done repeating myself. By all means look at what I've said and point out issues with it, and if I offer a rebuttal then point out those issues and so on, but if you're not prepared to do that then there's no reason to listen to this.

You can still potentially spam units
Lol no, unless a unit has 4+ Roles (hence indicating that the unit is commonplace and flexible and actually COULD turn up enmasse in fluff) that's not possible.

you can still potentially take broken builds
You're not even having the same conversation, are you? What in the bleeding chuzzfuck made you think that a change to the FO chart could at all address "broken builds"? Do you have even the foggiest idea how many factors feed into the breakability of a set of choices? The answer is that it far exceeds just the FO chart alone, and that was never the purpose behind the exercise.

You're basically begging me to present a completely rebalanced 30K, when that wasn't the conversation and was neither something I offered nor something I could at all present alone. Nice try but I'm just taking about how to improve the FO system.

Even if you made breachers or destroyers fit in every category they would never be taken outside of fluff reasons since they are absolute garbage units.
You stupid fuck, you absolute stupid fuck. I've already told you to read the thread twice and you haven't, so I'm done. I'm just going to insult you because your entire attitude towards discourse is bad.

Out of space so I'll cover the ACTUAL issue with the example system you propose in the next one, as opposed to the dumb one you present which actually isn't one.

Nude_Bikergirl
Nude_Bikergirl

Yeah. Lightning claws. Horus' is a talon, or the Talon to be specific.

TurtleCat
TurtleCat

Well the solution to the FoC is obvious, lets scrap the whole system, let people take whatever they want, but prices scale with the number taken. So taking one unit with upgrades is about 200 points, taking the second one may be 25% more, the third one 50% more, the fourth one 100% more, the fifth one 150% more, so on and so forth.
This is a bad system because it makes no sense from a fluff perspective. It doesn't require your army to have a coherent focus, and it also doesn't make sense because for many things, costs become far cheaper when produced en masse. In fact, that's the basic principle that goes into the unit tax design for almost all 30K units, where the first few models cost more than the extras.

You'd actually want to work this system BACKWARDS if anything, because an army composed of just one kind of unit would be by definition weaker than one with a dynamic range of tools for offense and defense purposes. And if a unit is so powerful that you could just spam them, then tada, mission accomplished. Now the unit MUST be balanced to account for the fact that there's nothing stopping players from spamming them. (I think that last sentence is the bit that keeps flying over your head).

Now the bit you talk about "exactly which degree of cost increase for which unit" is not even remotely a problem with the system. That's just something to be balanced in the implementation, without all the pitfall and caveats that come with that. Take the time to balance each unit and you'll get a nice game, don't and you won't. It's only if a system PREVENTS this balancing that it's an issue, which is the case with the current FO as it forces some units as a hard tax.

a vague concept
It's crystal fucking clear and very precise. Implementation is not the same fucking thing, get that through your skull.

eGremlin
eGremlin

Now that's the spirit! Course, I'd've thought some progress may have been made while I was occupied today, but there we have it.

First unit is the Praetor. Referring back to the big list in , the unit is obviously a Leader.

If the unit has a Jump Pack, it should have Airborne. I'd consider avoiding fast, and leaving that to units that can reliably travel 18+ inches in a turn.

If it has a Bike, I'd add Fast.

If it's in Terminator Armour, I'd add Heavy.

That's pretty straightforward so far. Taking a quick glance through the list, most of the Roles aren't relevant to the equipment and abilities of the Praetor (Cannon, Sniper, Construction etc.).

Of those that could fit, we have broader terms like Melee, Duellist, Vanguard and such. I'd definitely put Melee on all Praetors, and consider putting a single other one for just basic Artificier Armour on foot ones as well. Remembering that Praetors have a rule restricting them to 1 for every 1000pts, we can be a little flexible here, but just 3 Roles for all Praetors is good enough. I'd probably put Sprearhead for vanilla Praetors, as they tend to turn up in transports launching a frontal assault.

So our super-provisional Praetor has the following roles:

Default:
- Leader
- Melee
- Spearhead

And the following changes based on options:
Jump Pack
Replace Spearhead with Airborne
Bike
Replace Spearhead with Fast
Jetbike
Replace Spearhead with Supersonic
Terminator
Replace Spearhead with Heavy

So far so good. Next up are the Centurion and Consuls. Fortunately we've dealt with a large number of common features to all the HQ choices in the Legions list, so we've got a headstart. Get cracking!

girlDog
girlDog

Show me better and I'll listen to your baseless aspersion

Emberburn
Emberburn

High quality armour might improve dexterity
but it won't make you faster or rending
Strikes me as a contradiction with this.

Anyway yeah that's the point of having the armour makes as options, nods to the fluff that help shake up the game and let Praetors go along with more units and list builds.

DeathDog
DeathDog

Again, completely unrelated.

kizzmybutt
kizzmybutt

user, are you an idiot? it says leon the pratiarch, not the primarch lion

Playboyize
Playboyize

GW Legal is a nasty beast though...

FastChef
FastChef

Armoured ceramite is more expensive than a multimelta on a rhino. If nothing more, bringing the occasional melta weapon will cause your opponent to keep sinking points into ceramite.

happy_sad
happy_sad

First unit is the Praetor.
Now wait, I like how eager you are to get into this but I think you may be going about this the wrong way. A better way may be to define each category first. For example going back to your big list.
Fast
This includes fast vehicles, bikes, jetbikes, flyers, skimmers, and jump infantry.

Superfast
This might work alongside fast or be a separate term meaning flyers aren't fast, but instead just superfast

Assassin
Any unit with precision shots, precision strikes, or preferred enemy characters or independent characters

These definitions could allow for much faster and easier mass application of key words to wargear and units which can then be trimmed for balance purposes. It can also identify redundancies for example Cannon, Artillery, Demolitions, Shock Effect, and Bombardment, while they won't overlap in all cases this for example could allow for easier spamming of units for example quad mortars and other units. If you agree with this method I can start listing relevant terms and you can but in in individual cases if you see something dumb or that you find to be stretching a term. Otherwise I will go along with defining each unit one at a time.

Boy_vs_Girl
Boy_vs_Girl

Or just snipe the rhino turn 1. If you want to force the ceramite a better idea might be some vets with combi-meltas and tank hunters in a drop pod. The opponent would need ceramite to have any chance at survival, yet 10 vets each firing a strength 9 AP 1 gun into the back of a land raider or spartan will still have solid odds of killing it. If you just want to force the ceramite just stick to a more multi-purpose unit (eg. 10 sniper vets with 2 missile launchers and 3 combi-meltas). The unit will be a major threat to any unit without AC but still can act as a general anti-infantry or light vehicle unit.

However my overall point still stands that RG need some better anti-tank (and to tell us the overall points cost).

Looking at the whole list myself Give us the total points of the list
Forge Lord cannot join automata, standing alone he will quickly die, you would be better off providing him with a small escort of veterans, tactical marines, or terminators
Lone rhino with a multimelta likely will die instantly
Plasma support squad can really benefit from an apothecary because at 24" they will get 1 or 2 gets hot wounds a turn, meaning they are likely losing a guy every couple of turns at least, also they are a big target
You need more anti-tank

I could offer specific solutions if I knew the points total.

VisualMaster
VisualMaster

regimental-standard.com/2018/03/28/field-dressing-a-lasgun-wound/

Unfortunately, due to a printing error, the section of your Uplifting Primer dealing with field dressing a lasgun wound has accidentally been replaced with a concise history of the Rangdan Xenocides and a complete guide to fighting these sinister xenos.

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PurpleCharger
PurpleCharger

A better way may be to define each category first
Way ahead of this one, I only put the terms down because they were themselves pretty clearcut. There is some ambiguity of course, but that's precisely the kind of thing that needs to be ironed-out with practice.

For instance, I had prior to this thread been using Fast pretty much as in your post, Fast and Supersonic together for most Fast Skimmers and Hover Flyers, and Supersonic alone for Flyers that don't have Hover.

But taking the time to go through bits of the system in this thread has made be decided to not give fast to Jump Packs or Rhinos, things that move 12" essentially. Working through specific units is how you get around this.

I think the assassin definitions you put forward is pretty good, but honestly it's not hard to see if a unit is meant to be assassinatory or similarly eliminative (I thought about using Eliminator as a Role). Most of them will probably have those specials anyway. Preferred enemy characters isn't necessarily what Assassin is going after, that could similarly be for Duellist units. You go by case really and see what fits the theme.

These definitions could allow for much faster and easier mass application of key words to wargear and units which can then be trimmed for balance purposes.
I really have to voice my disagreement with this, this sounds like it would take forever to calculate when looking at a given unit tells you most of the details anyway. Most of the roles a unit has will be immediately obvious like Cannon, Leader etc. and the rest are based on the overall *usage* of the unit rather than specific gear.

Cannon, Artillery, Demolitions, Shock Effect, and Bombardment
Yeah I expected these might confuse people, you know it's a good think to ask when you don't know what the difference is between these terms. I can't expect people to read minds but I can't be expected to read them either, so feedback is needed to see which ones aren't immediately clear.

1/2

DeathDog
DeathDog

Cannon
Used for things like Heavy Support squads with Lascannons, Autocannons and the like (not jut weapons with Cannon in the name of course, but that sort of low shot count, long range weapon), as well as similar vehicles with a large, direct-use turret

Artillery
Indirect fire with a minimum range chiefly

Demolitions
Anything optimised to knock down buildings and fortifications

Shock Effect
Very unrelated to the others, Shock Effect is more like Deep Striking hardcore melee unit and other "Shock and Awe" burst of damage type units.

The Shock Effect may of course never get used at all after going all the way through the Legion list. The big batch of Roles really is the "everything absolutely possible" set list, and can entirely be wittled down to maybe 20 or so concise terms.

Bombardment
Cover certain very large blast weapons including artillery, bomber aircraft and... that may be about it. This one could easily be the most eliminable from the set up.

WebTool
WebTool

Well, at least now it's confirmed that both of them fell during the Xenocides. Before, I know at least one legion was mentioned to have been destroyed there.

Inmate
Inmate

veekyforums.com/thread/58787435/games
veekyforums.com/thread/58787435/games

New bread, fresh new bread!

5mileys
5mileys

Greetings, Solar Auxilia!
This is not how Solar Auxilia would communicate with other

Generally modern GW has a problem with applying IG and Ork humour to factions that don't fit that bit