/btg/ BattleTech General

If I circled an AK-47 and labelled it a laser that still wouldn't be what lasers look like

Verisimilitude is for faggots. If it's not realistic, it's shit. The only acceptable sci-fi is 100% hard sci-fi at all times. It's one reason why I complain about battletech so much. Compared to tanks, battlemechs make no sense and shouldn't be a major part of the setting.

If your sci-fi remains 100% hard for more than four hours, consult a physician.

Then why are you here? There's FTL, the setting is automatically failing your autism test.

>battlemechs make no sense and shouldn't be a major part of the setting.
What the fuck are you doing in here then?

>that still wouldn't be what lasers look like

You know what lasers will look like in the 2523? Got some lottery numbers there too, sport?

Stop fucking insisting that everything has to conform to science as we understand it today. It's OK for things to look different or be guided by totally different design considerations. You're doing exactly the sort of thing a arquebus gunmaker would do in 1518 looking at an AR-15. "It doesn't make sense and doesn't look like what I know about now, so it must be complete shit."

If you're unable to suspend disbelief, then get the hell out of sci-fi. Nobody wants hard realismfags infesting their hobby, and that definitely includes you.

he's here to argue and bitch, has been for literally years, Lord only knows why

>It's OK for things to look different or be guided by totally different design considerations.

No, it's not. End of debate. Aeronautic principles cannot and never will change.

Jesus guys, how are you not used to that idiot by now? He's here specifically to troll for responses like yours, just ignore him and he'll eventually shut up.

Probably good - some other clans have good concepts in them but are too close to others.

So Coyote should have some of its fluff merged in with the Wolves for example. Ghost Bear stuff can be merged under Hellions - they're very similar (ice themed clans that gofast).

I would say keep either Cloud Cobra or Snow Raven, but merge the two of them into a single clan instead of the Sharks - Aerospace focused clans who emphasize politics.

I like the concept of Steel Viper if not the execution, but not sure what they could be merged with. Would want to save their battlemechs at least.

You're right. I'm sure aperture limited diffraction will cease to exist and be replaced by infinitely transparent lenses by then.

>You're doing exactly the sort of thing a arquebus gunmaker would do in 1518 looking at an AR-15
Gunmakers in 1518 were already experimenting with cartridged ammunition and feed systems for it. It just wasn't practical yet. And an AR-15 still has a fucking barrel.

I like it! If you've got more, post sum moar. Are changing Clan society too to make it less full retarded?

>You're right.

"You're right,", said the arquebus-maker. "I'm sure that our laws of reality will magically change and you'll just be able to make the fire just inside the barrel, so you can ignite the powder without a wick. It doesn't matter whether you're asking about 10 years, 50 years, or 500 years in the future: real life is real life and you're always going to be needing a burning wick outside the gun. It's just science."

Steel Viper's trueborn asshole factor should go to the Jags.

Their isolationism and snootiness is more of a Spirit thing.

I like the idea of the "Mandrill" clan being Blood Spirit - the idea being that its a bunch of weaker clans that united to remain viable and so keep the "Spirit" of the original clans.

You're a fucking autistic retard who shouldn't be involved in science fiction in any capacity. Leave.

I would swap Horses and Adders. Just as planned is boring as Fuck. Wolves/Adders should be the boring protagonist but cunning clan to counter the Falcons.

The Horses have a uniquely different style from the rest of the clans I figure.

Pressure-sensitive explosives which could hypothetically be used as primers have existed for millennia. They just weren't practical in 1518.

Just because you don't understand physical vs engineering limitations doesn't mean no one else does.

no u

>Just because you don't understand physical vs engineering limitations doesn't mean no one else does.

It's not a matter of understanding. It's a matter of NOT FUCKING CARING.

We Do. Not. Care. that Battlemechs make no engineering sense compared to tanks. We don't fucking care that FTL travel is effectively impossible. We don't goddamn care that the laser barrels are too small or the thrust-vectoring nozzles are square instead of round or that whatever the fuck you're complaining about is the way it is instead of the way you think it ought to be.

Why? Because we're mentally healthy enough to be able to suspend disbelief, if what we're being told otherwise at least has the VENEER of being explained in a way that can make "fake-sense". Which is verisimilitude. Tell us a good story and make it seem like it make sense, we we'll be able to enjoy it and not overthink it fucking thing. You're hung up on details that nobody else ever will care about, and for a project where the intent wasn't to conform to known science or physical laws in the fucking first place.

Most people develop this ability naturally, and even the at the latest are able to process it by age 12 or so. Which means you're either not mentally healthy (read: autistic, given a primary indicator of actual, no-shit autism is the inability to suspend disbelief...which is a good explanation why there's a strong correlation between engineers and autists), or you aren't old enough to use this site. In either case, leave.

I don't think anyone outside his court knew about his insanity and him trying to roleplay VSD just with rape replacing actual sex. Though I would suspect they had pretty low view on him atleast on military matters as his rule was the time when both Draconis Combine and Capellan Confederation where pretty much rolling over FedSuns and him giving two shits about it instead of chasing after MoC princesses to molest.

If you don't care, then why make a fallacious argument about 16th century gunsmiths instead of just saying you don't care?

this is probably my favorite reinterpretation so far. All of the one line description clans should have been kindraas

Considering how real world monarchical families have fared if they don't take the offramp into civil irrelevancy, I have no idea how these same families have managed to remain in power for so long.

The Jags weren't only good because of the trial system, they were hyper-adapted to function through it. Their economy was undeveloped, but they were so good at trialing their solahma and garrison clusters sported omnimechs. They had omnis coming out of their ears.

Personally i think those rules buff vehicles bit too much. I mean it pretty much makes them immune to crit hits outside of TACs and them harder to mission kill than similar weight mech, which is all sorts of stupid considering the game is about the mechs.

A middle-ground option would be nice (though it's fairly easy to kludge), but not everyone wants the game to be totally about mechs.

The hell you on about? I was answering a question made last thread about how much Calebs shit was known about by the common people of FedSuns.

A) Wasn't me. Though I agree with his sentiment.

B) Because the sentiment expressed in that post is correct, even if the details weren't. The point fucking being that if you're judging fiction set a long way in the future by the science of today, you're a fucking idiot. For example:

youtube.com/watch?v=jT6h2CUWLzQ

It's the same sort of wrongness as the SJWs who look at people who lived 500 years ago and judge them based on modern standards of morality. They're just as stupid and wrong as you. Things and people are products of their time, and must be judged within their immediate context. You don't know the (fictional) context of the science which powers that bird, and judging its design by the scientific standard of 2018 is just as wrong as the SJWs are.

For christ's sake, a perfectly valid set of suppositions to explain your problems with the plane was provided, and instead of suspending disbelief or taking them at face value, you doubled down into the valley of, "if it doesn't work via mechanism of 2018 science, it's shit". Shut the hell up, suspend your disbelief, and roll with it. If more context is provided, re-evaluate. Until then, enjoy the pretty pictures and don't fill our sci-fi thread with hard SF faggotry.

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Look if you want to make deathrays that don't obey the rules of lasers you can do that, but why call them lasers?

Can you 100% guarantee that the rules of lasers won't change in 500 years?

>a perfectly valid set of suppositions to explain your problems with the plane was provided
No, it wasn't. Not even close.

>if it doesn't work via mechanism of 2018 science, it's shit
Again, you're conflating science and engineering. Advances in engineering increase what we know is possible. Advances in science increase what we know is impossible.

Fuck, Star Wars lasers don't obey the rules of lasers. People still call them lasers. What's the problem, aside from your obvious autism?

Some new options will certainly become available. But I can 100% guarantee that lenses will never be perfectly transparent, mirrors will never be perfectly reflective, and light will always diffract.

>waaah! My engineering degree isn't helping me explain why something works! It must be shit!

Come off it already.

What I'm on about is that they probably thought Caleb was shit. And I'm surprised they didn't just boot him out. Incompetent rulers have a remarkable resilience in the Battletech universe.

>But I can 100% guarantee

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Those are called blasters. It's still wrong, but people usually don't try to pretend like it might actually be possible.

The fuck are you even trying to say here?

Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side.

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>Someone once allegedly said something that was wrong therefore no one can ever be sure about anything ever.

>Those are called blasters.

starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Laser

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Oh. They must be possible then.

>A laser was a beam of focused energy operating under the same principles as blaster weaponry. Energy-rich gas would be converted to a glowing particle beam with the type of gas dictating the bolts color and qualities.

?????

OK, before this thread has completely devolved, hypothetically, what would it take to convince you that the aircraft in question is fine - in a setting which doesn't concern itself with modern physics and engineering like, say, Battletech?

Or, y'know, you could look at the artist's DeviantArt, where he points out that he's doing a series of space fighters and vehicles for a space FANTASY setting which isn't supposed to have any more realism than Mass Effect did.

>what would it take to convince you that the aircraft in question is fine

Nothing. If your setting can't abide by real engineering knowledge, it shouldn't exist in the first place.

>no one can ever be sure about anything ever.
Welcome to the real world.

Exactly what I said in Star Wars lasers are blatantly not actually lasers, but they CALL them lasers. What's stopping the artist from making a weapon that's blatantly not an actual laser (so autist-user doesn't have to change panties) but calling them lasers anyway?

You're unsarcastically right. Aperture-limited diffraction might not exist, atomic theory might be wrong, and the world might be flat. We can never be 100% sure.

>t. an engineer who is firmly convinced of his own over-inflated sense of importance

>What's stopping the artist from making a weapon that's blatantly not an actual laser (so autist-user doesn't have to change panties) but calling them lasers anyway?
Self-respect, hopefully

You can't just call something by the wrong name. It isn't allowed. Things have names for a reason, and you have to use those.

Well, thermo we rather unfortunately can be sure of, though it's not relevant to the rants in question here.

Well okay, then you are arguing that Battletech shouldn't exist. Good work. Please continue to post in a thread about a setting you think doesn't exist to demonstrate your amazing intelligence.

You want a lapse of realism in this setting? Try to buy something with a @!@#@%!!@ bulldozer so you can smooth out some forward airfields/landing pads and find something other than a centuries-discontinued/Blakist Space Magic Ressurected 70-ton Steiner abortion.

>grenade launchers!!!??

Well considering how much shit some rulers have fucked up in real life history and still stayed in power you wouldn't be all that suprised. Something like French Revolution are actually a rare incident. More often or not total basket cases are left on the throne while their goverment runs things until a suitable heir is found and the king crazy ass is quietly removed and the new king is installed. And Calebs rule was not yet on stage that the his court was looking for new guy to run show.

I doubt he's still underage, because he's been making these posts around here for at least four years

The French Revolution was a rare event... at the time of its occourance. In the century that followed the situation of monarchs was much more unstable. And I'm not even talking about popular uprisings. Nobility are always eager to swap dynasties when one starts to fuck up.

Battletech is an odd setting in that its feudalism makes sense in the context of the crazy Mad Max world of the succession wars - but fluff wise, it exists both before and after that time period.

Christ, this has got to be the largest (you) harvest this guy's ever had

Yeah, I was saying they were in good shape, ie: having all the nice things, because of the trial system. Not that they were bad at fighting and only good at anything because of trials, but that they were only in as absurdly good shape as they were because they were good at trials.

Yeah, even though I love the Ice hellions, they're pretty much a one-note clan. You could cram all of them into a Kindraa without issues.

The wolves had originally been doing the horse's current shtick before the horses took it and ran with it. Leaving the Adders also makes the Reavings fairly similar to canon, and this was basically a fat-trimming exercise. Swapping them (keeping horses, fusing adder/wolf) works, though.

Yeah, mainly listing the main one as Mandrill to keep it as the major potion of the newclan (in this case, being a bunch of smaller mini-clans) as the one the newclan is named after. Blood/Spirt Mandrills would probably be a new name for them if I went deeper.

Honestly I just kinda threw this together based off the idea of cramming a bunch of them into the mandrills and then cutting it back to 10 total.

Fluffing things out more: Invasion clans are still the classic 4, which are the larger and more united ones. The 5 others (Wolverines being long dead) stay home. Some scorpions follow later, and decide to join with the DC when Bulldog happens. The homeworld scorps don't go along with this, splitting the clan. Jags get killed off as before, sharks start selling. Wolf gets completely kicked out, no split between Wolf and Wolf-in-exile. Homeworlds have their hissy fits, kicked off by some adder manipulation of the mangrill sub-clans and accusations of the IS-touching clans acting unclanlike. End result is the homeworld scorps run and do the imperio, mandrills are shattered and one of the sub-clans forms a new homeworld clan, Coyote and Adder remain as homeworlders. IS clans leave homeworlds behind.

>Christ, this has got to be the largest (you) harvest this guy's ever had

Maybe, if we're lucky, he won't know what to do with it.

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Why would we be surer of thermo than diffraction?

I mean in fluff the Horses did take some IS terrtitory. I figure IS affecting stuff is more important than clan homeworld stuff, which only affects itself.

Since the bears are getting cut, who'd be the fourth invading clan?

Hellions I'd guess? They are pretty much close to bears. Go fast, stupid, emphasis on close familial relationships (families to the bears, 'packs' to the Hellions), arctic theme

Honestly, I was thinking about cutting down clan power gap to tabletop levels and making it ALL OF THEM

Yeah. Leaving clans behind was sort of pointless. Clans should be just divided into front line and second line clans.

Good points.

where would the wolves go if they get kicked out but arent homeworlders?

great refusal seems to be left out which is a major plot point that basically serves to handwave the two most powerful invading clans so bulldog isnt as far fetched and also defines both wolf factions and the falcucks all the way into the post jihad era. i think the wolf split is pretty important, continues the classic wolf faction as well as the whole "your sakhan is also the heir to one of the most prominent IS merc groups and the other big group were originally freeborns from your ranks" type deal. i think it could have been done better but vlad and phelan are both pretty interesting figures in themselves and neither deserve to take a back seat role.

i also didnt really like how coyote/wolf powerhouse just gets completely fucking forgotten as soon as revival kicks off. like, best of buddies to complete strangers. i guess it sort of makes sense because wolf in exile is abjured and theyre the classic warden elements, but all the same, it would be cool for the two yifflords to buddy up again. having clans just sit with their thumbs in their ass out in the boonies is kind of boring. just some thoughts

>Though I would suspect they had pretty low view on him atleast on military matters as his rule was the time when both Draconis Combine and Capellan Confederation where pretty much rolling over FedSuns and him giving two shits about it instead of chasing after MoC princesses to molest.

lolwut

Caleb was aggressively pushing against the other two and the MechWarrior Cabal was fully behind him. His plan fell apart when the Ravens sold him out and he died fighting the Dracs on Palmyra, the FedSuns getting DP'd came after and as a rseult of that. Before that, while he wasn't brilliant, he was set up to beat the snot out of the Dracs. Read the fucking fluff before you try to tell other people about it.

>Personally i think those rules buff vehicles bit too much. I mean it pretty much makes them immune to crit hits outside of TACs and them harder to mission kill than similar weight mech, which is all sorts of stupid considering the game is about the mechs.

No, it makes them worth some of the BV. They're still shredded way too easily to be worth actually using most of the time, but they at least approach usefulness.

See then kill yourself

All of this.

Realistically, if Mechs are getting 16 points per ton of armor, vees should get 30 since they can slope and compact it more efficiently. They should also be totally immune to crits except for SI hots or TACs on 2s, just like Mechs, since they're made of the same stuff. A penalty to hit them representing their low profile is also more than reasonable.

But CGL wont even entertain reasonable compromises like these since they like Mechs so much. It's completely biased.

...

Oh gosh I 110% agree with you user. It's called "BattleTECH" not "BattleMECH". I'm so glad to finally find someone around here that shares my viewpoint on these important issues. I mean we all love the game so shouldn't we want it to be the best it can be?

See you're joking, but vees are pure shit and even the TacOps vee effectiveness rules don't get them anywhere close to competing with Mechs. So you're ok.

YES. THANK YOU. Not even the same guy.

Dubs of truth.

TANK STRONK
REMOVE MEK

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>vees are pure shit

Good. They shouldn't be in the game in the first place.

>that's it. I'm cutting my Mechanics' pay until they can find something better than SRM2 to put on those Flatbeds
>I don't care what MekLab says, see pic related? It's clearly possible.
>RLs and a machine gun. Now.
>hell that might actually be an autocannon

How could that possibly be justified? That would be fucking stupid. That would be like a future in which knives don't exist.

There's no point having the Wolves and Adders for Clan pragmatic/just as planned.

'Mech-wise, maybe, but the Bears are Clan Go Slow otherwise.

Vees are already worth their BV.

>How could that possibly be justified?

Simple. The game is about Mechs. Combat vees aren't really a thing. You should be grateful they're included at all. How the game ought to work is that if a Mech hits a vee with a Mech-scale weapon, then the vee dies. Period. End of story.

Vees still exist for moving things around or pacifying recalcitrant liberals who don't know their place on individual planets, but they're completely obsolete as a means of making war. It's supposed to be the Age of the Battlemech, and the rules should reflect that. If vees and Mechs are on the same battlefield, then the Mechs win.
Every time. Don't even stat out the vees in the first place, even.

No, it's an RL.

>Simple. The game is about Mechs. Combat vees aren't really a thing.
False. Mech isn't even in the title. Combat vees have been in from day 1. You should be ashamed.

Can see something like the Ibex RV with a RL/10 or two.

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>I'd breathed a sigh of relief when the perennial vehicle-troll shit storm subsided well short of the 100 post mark
>too soon

"Droid" was in the title, and "Droid" was the word originally used to mean "Mech". So yeah, originally originally, "Mech" fucking WAS in the title, and you're a disingenuous cunt.

>well, what else is there to talk about that won't start an equally bad shitstorm?
>for serious, the more people I can get to quit the game, the more CGL will pander to my point of view because I'm still spending money while they aren't

>Anyone who isn't a venerable grognard is a disingenuous cunt
Okay grandpa

>proven wrong
>"yeah, well you're old and have a greater familiarity of the game than I do!"
>supposed to be an insult

Wow, young people really are being dumbed down by the school system, aren't they?