/osrg/ - Old School Revival General

So my favorite magic item I've invented is the "Dagger of Roiling Polymorph"

If you hit a target, target Saves with a bonus equal to their HD (so a 6 HD creature gets 5+6, goblin gets 5+1, etc.)

If failed, creature is polymorphed into a random creature. I use the AD&D MM - use whatever list you've got handy.

Creature then Saves again at the start of their next round. If they fail, they change again. If they pass, they stay as the transformed creature for 24hrs. They can then save again after 24hrs to stay in that form for a year, the permanently.

Depending on the intelligence of the original creature, it may take a round or two to get used to its new form.

Anyway, point is... it's hilarious. The player with it transformed a Roper into a Goat (hooray!).
The goat then transformed into a Manticore and shot everyone with iron darts.

The PC with the dagger then stabbed a dying P to try and heal them. It worked. Turned them into a dryad. Everyone's happy.

Then the other PCs found out the wizard had a Sleep spell prepared the whole time and could have EASILY solved the Ropers /or/ the Manticor problem. But noooo...

I love my players.

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>"ARMOUR HALL" has way more characters to scan for than "13". It takes up more mental effort
I feel like it might be the other way around because it has more of a distinct shape whereas "13" will blend in with "12" and "18", maybe you're right, though. Replacing a lot of room description with just one label will hopefully mean reading less in the end anyway.

(I also feel like this makes the map itself much easier to get an overview grasp of than if there are only numbers on there and you have to look up each one. Learning other people's modules is always hard for me because of that.)

I love it. I hope your players are smart enough to bring an emergency chicken that they can stab next time they dungeon delve.

>whereas "13" will blend in with "12" and "18", maybe you're right, though.
It depends on your font too. Vitally important to choose a good clear font.

But take "ARMOUR HALL, MAIN HALL, ENTRANCE HALL, SIDE HALL" or "UPPER MIDDLE GALLERY, SECOND UPPER GALLERY, LONG UPPER GALLERY" etc.
> also feel like this makes the map itself much easier to get an overview grasp of than if there are only numbers on there and you have to look up each one. Learning other people's modules is always hard for me because of that.)
You can also use illustrated maps to help with that, or mini-maps in the room description text.

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>If you hit a target, target Saves with a bonus equal to their HD (so a 6 HD creature gets 5+6, goblin gets 5+1, etc.)
Your saving throw system seems totally unorthodox. I have no idea where that 5 came from. And Saves against what? Magic?

>stabbed a dying P to try and heal them. It worked. Turned them into a dryad.
This doesn't make any sense, why would the polymorph heal wounds? Surely the new form would have the same number of injuries either proportionally or as an absolute amount of HP inflicted. If the dagger doesn't do actual damage, what's the point of it being a dagger instead of a rod, touchstone, or similar?

I like the basic idea, but it seems like it would need reworking before it works at the table.

Haha, that's what dying PCs are for.
The dagger only has 3 charges left. They don't know this. I'm looking forward to the time when the dagger-wielding PC stabs someone as a last-ditch healing effort... and just stabs them.

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>It depends on your font too.
Handwriting. I'm talking about my home maps, which use my handwriting.

>But take [examples]
Those are honestly all much more immediately separable to me than numbers and don't take significantly longer to read. I don't think there's really anything to discuss here, it's just a perceptual thing that varies between people.

>You can also use illustrated maps
Yeah.

>or mini-maps in the room description text.
Not really, that would still force the reader to look up each entry. I'm talking about taking in the entire dungeon as a whole, its basic concepts and interactions.

>I have no idea where that 5 came from. And Saves against what? Magic?
Oh yeah sorry, I use 1 generic Save value for anything that doesn't fit under one of the 6 stats. It's 5+Level (curve flattens for PCs) or 5+HD for monsters, max 18. If you're using classic Saves, just use Save vs Magic or Save vs Transformation if your system is that specific.

> why would the polymorph heal wounds?
Why wouldn't it? Makes you into a new creature. Seems fairly mythological-sensible to me; your mileage may vary.
>what's the point of it being a dagger instead of a rod, touchstone, or similar?
Because stabbing people to transform them is VERY much a wizard thing, don't you think? Plus it makes the wizard wade into dangerous melee, which is always fun .

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The change will also heal d6x10% of any damage taken by the druid.

>stat based saves

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As I undertsand the GLGO it's not stat based saves. There are stat rolls for doing stuff and ONE (1) save for not fucking up when you ought o fuvk up.

Hey, the idea certainly isn't wedded to any one Save system. Do what you like.

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Eh, I also use "Save vs Constitution" for poisons and "Save vs Intelligence" for mind-probes and "Save vs Dexterity" to dodge some stuff (if you could use skill. If it's luck, it's the generic lower Save value).

This makes me subhuman scum, I believe. So it goes. Seems to work fairly well in game; we get great stories like this despite using heretical saves. I'll take it.

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>Why wouldn't it?
Both cheaty and illogical. As long as it *alters you* rather than just replacing you with somebody else, reasonably the wounds would remain on the corresponding parts of your new anatomy.

>Makes you into a new creature.
A creature with a knife stuck in it.

>Because stabbing people to transform them is VERY much a wizard thing, don't you think?
No, I think it's just a dumb thing. "LOL WOZZURDS, HOW ZANY" is too far down the gonzo hole.

>Plus it makes the wizard wade into dangerous melee
So would a rod or anything else working at touch range.

But all this is academic since you seem to have written it for 5e and then taken a wrong turn on their way to the general; that's the most charitable spin I can put on your save system considering how often anons have explained that such things are senseless and terrible.

>on their way
How did I manage to make this happen? "On your way".

You seem more out of place then him. He shows up on old maps.

>Both cheaty and illogical.
If they hadn't used it on a dying PC I probably would have agreed. The (very high) chance of being turned into a non-sentient creature and effectively dying felt like it should have a corresponding reward if the dice went their way. "Die as a wizard or die as a wounded ear-seeker" just... didn't seem right, you know? If they want to pull off a risky move there should be some reward.
But hey, it's certainly not like I'm trying to say I've got the One Tru Way. It's just... a way.
>A creature with a knife stuck in it.
If you're going to make it not heal people, probably should make it into a rod or make the knife ethereal. The spell kicks in a few moments after you remove the dagger.
>No, I think it's just a dumb thing. "LOL WOZZURDS, HOW ZANY" is too far down the gonzo hole.
Ok?
> considering how often anons have explained that such things are senseless and terrible.
And yet I endure.
Look, this place has good advice sometimes. But I don't think anyone should be under any obligation to obey Veeky Forums's views on any given topic. It's rare enough to find someone who actually games on here, it seems.

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>But I don't think anyone should be under any obligation to obey Veeky Forums's views on any given topic

It's weird that you would even act like that was a thing. "Obey Veeky Forums's views."

But if you have an argument that stat-based saves aren't a big nasty can of worms that is a terrible fit for D&D, I'd like to hear it.

>But if you have an argument that stat-based saves aren't a big nasty can of worms that is a terrible fit for D&D, I'd like to hear it.
Well I'll give it a shot, if it'll make you happy. I'm not really concerned either way.

It's not as big of a deal as it looks on paper. It triggers armchair GMs and people who worry about probability curves. Rolls are risk; a good plan involves very few rolls anyway. And nobody will remember the specific mechanics in a few years but they'll remember how a session went or that one time Danny got turned into a swan when he tried to eat a scroll.

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Non-static attributes removes most of the issues of stat saves. GLOG gas you roll 3d6 on level up and gives +1 to each attribute you roll over.

I'm kind of confused by the thief class and searching for traps. Don't usually players describe specifically how they will search for traps and stuff? Also will the thief just make this roll every time they enter a room? If they fail the roll, can they still search for traps normally? Sorry these are dumb questions

Greyhawk makes it pretty clear, but OP has the best description I've seen:
>Removal of small trap devices (such as poisoned needles)

AD&D shortens the name considerably, but even in 2e the write-up clearly says "this only detects or removes small traps"
Note that some early spells (like the Pyrologist's Fire Trap, which rigs a latch to explode) say "Thieves can remove this"

None of that actually addresses the design problems, you've basically just said "lol I don't care."
Which is fine, but it's not an argument.

That's more like it, but non-static attributes are part of the "can of worms" IMO. It leads to power inflation and game breaking bullshit. D&D's always had trouble at high levels as the numbers climb, and allowing stats to go up just makes that happen faster.

Past 4, chance for stat increase is pretty much the only benefit to levelling in GLOG.

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Are design problems that don't come up during play really design problems?

It might be a problem that the honda civic can't travel underwater, but it's not a problem the honda civic is designed to handle.

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Swords & Wizardry uses single category saving throws, but gives most classes a bonus category that they get +2 against. Druids get +2 vs. fire, for instance. I'm not completely satisfied with the categories it use though, so I'm interested to know what you guys think the intuitive categories are for the B/X classes.

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Honestly, those saves should all be about 5 lower.

A while ago I saw a table of saves. There might have been 60. Maybe 50. I think mansefag made it. It might have been sci-fi stuff. I don't remember.
Anyways, each character getd 5 rolls on it. And whatever highly situational results they get are the only certain deaths they have a chance to avoid.

Seemed like a cool idea.

Yeah, I flattened them out in mine and started them at 5. Capped HP at 20 too.

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Not everyone has the same level of tolerance for shitty mechanics. WotC D&D makes extensive use of stat-based saves, and plenty of people enjoy those editions, but I don't play them because I don't like the way they work, and hate the knock-on effects of the way saves work there - especially 3e where it's most noticeably terrible.

GLOG is just weird as fuck.

For that matter, why do thieves generally have crappy saves? It seems like if anybody would be good at avoiding danger, it'd be them.

>That feel when you're a fan of Lotfp, but know its so obscure that you'll never be able to play in the Red and Pleasant setting as a Player (with the Alice/Alister class).

>Save vs Constitution
"Save to avoid having a constitution"? You should at least call it a Save WITH Constitution.

Why are the save and attack getting worse instead of better?

So, on hexcrawls. How do you do it?
Do you prepare a 'hex feature' for every hex? How important featutes have to be to be listed (e.g. is a single monolith a feature, or does it have to be an important city etc) How detailed are your descriptions of features? How do you determine when players find a feature in play?

only experience I have is with a scifi hexcrawl, where each hex is a star system. and each one of these had just one habitable planet. (But do to certain quests and the party really liking some npcs, they've only been to three of the hexes so far.

ive toyed with doing a fantasy hexcrawl though.

Have a look at the Wilderlands, it's in the trove. The original products will give you a baseline for how light a hexcrawl can be and still be fully functional.

They aren't dumb, you wouldn't believe the amount of conflicting information about how thieves operate.

The Greyhawk Thief was blatantly "stolen" from a fanzine called "The Great Plains" but it didn't include a explanation of how the abilities operated like the original; Finding Traps is automatic, a thief only has to look at something to know if it is trapped, only removing a trap requires a roll.

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Ascending system, everything is doll under. Like I said, GLOG is weird as fuck.

I did a simplification of the B/X tables a while back, not intuitive, but breaks everything down into plus or minus two.

0 level base save is 15, goes down 2/3 per level

Fighters: +2 poison, -2 magic;
Clerics: +2 poison, +2 wands, -2 dragon
MU & Thief: -2 dragon
Dwarf & Half: as fighter, additional +2 dragon and +4 others
Elf: better of Figher and MU

Your categories are pretty close to what I got when I did something similar. I did the base saves individually by class though.

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With that said, I don't really understand why the categories are what they are. You could reason out why a fighter might be weak to spells, but why are thieves and clerics weak vs. dragon breath?

> why are thieves and clerics weak vs. dragon breath?
sometimes turds float

NAYRT, but are some saves more common than others? Dragon breath is just unavoidable damage, right?

Because fighters are supposed to fight dragons.

Sometimes when crap comes out, gravity opens tensional fissures that run perpendicular to the length of the turd which remains entire. Details like this make or break a campaign.

Yeah, I tried to get everyone on the same track but within +/-1 for the lowest level in each range.

Still, the more I stare at it the more I think who cares, throw it all out and go freestyle like Arneson.

>trouble at high levels as the numbers climb,
Was one of Arnold's stated design goals.

your campaigns contain too much detail

YOU CANNOT HAVE A MEANINGFUL CAMPAIGN IF STRICT FECAL SAMPLES ARE NOT KEPT.

>Roiling or rolling?

It’s a cool item

Thieves level fast. They have good saves per x.p.

> The goblins splattered shit on the wizard's spell book.
Maximal detail, minimal words.

So, uh. What to do with all that gold PCs unearthed from dungeons?
1-xp-per-1-gp-spent is okay, but equipment and carousing expenses can only go so far.

Just use standard XP=gold recovered and have them invest in strongholds, like Godgax intended.

Opinions on giving the players a base of operations in the form of a keep owned by a lord they can work with in early levels?

Decent and has the best antecedents (B2, really), works just as well as a nearby town.

Get good at describing how pretty armor looks to encourage spending on bling. I also rip off Nightmares Underneath and its business investment system.

Good idea, and eventually one of them will curry enough favor to get their own plot of land and want to build something on it.

The trouble with generals is that you recognize people well enough for drama and tired arguments come up so often they ferment.

You're entirely right in your assumptions. To me, the Thief abilities regardings traps are absurd in the kind of game we play, so I removed Find Traps (instead increasing the Thief's chance to find hidden features secret doors etc), and rolled Open Locks and Remove Traps into one, called Tinker, that's used for anything requiring tinkering with mechanisms (think of how an EOD tech disables an IED)

Literally the OP.
>blatantly "stolen" from a fanzine
Gygax wrote that article.

dndwithpornstars.blogspot
.com/2010/12/joey-johnny-dee-dee-tommy.html

>2010
>A gaming philosophy article instead of GM tricks or weird ass ideas
Zak's only really good back in 2009 when he seemed less cynical and posted game content and session reports.

Your envy shows.

It's "bad" because it's hard to order the key and thus quickly find the room on your key but honestly if it works for you then it works for you. Nothing wrong with titling the room and giving it a number as well.

>Someone is steering the players at the table, and the DM is wrong if they think they're the one doing it
is good insight.

The way I run it, thieves can find traps that are normally imperceptible, invisible, or magical. If they find and identify such a trap, it’s immediately disabled or they jam it so the trap can be bypassed. If their roll fails they still are able to search as any other player could. Otherwise thieves just seem a little silly.

How is it going Zak

Where are the G+ hipsters at? I wanna see them in their natural habitat

You already found it, yes, It's really that small.

Fine Zak. I'll read it if you want to talk about it that much. I just prefer random tables.

Which OSR bloggers are acceptable?
Which ones are faggots?

>Which OSR bloggers are acceptable?
The ones I like
>Which ones are faggots?
The ones you like

All of them.
Most of them.

The ones with actual content.

The ones that all about drama.

The Forge refugees are unacceptaable. Lots of drama and nothing of value.
The LotFP graft is tolerable. Lots of drama, little of value, and the occasional harsh truth.
The content producers are idyllic. You will know them by their secret signs, that they don't speak up and that you've never heard of them.

>Which OSR bloggers are acceptable?
The ones you know actually run games/play.
>Which ones are faggots?
The ones who focus on drama.

How should I do multiclassing?
I've already had enough with 3.PF and all the "dipping."
I like multiclassing in concept (a cleric / thief might be kinda cool, and sword-mage eldritch knight types are cool, as are mystic theurge cleric / magic users) but in 3.5 and 5e I see so much of this "dip to get a frontloaded benefit" so I am thinking of making it work like dual-classing or gestalt classes. Maybe it does work like gestalt classes but the XP to level up is doubled? Should I make special classes for the combos that are actually good? Like mystic theurge is both a magic user and a cleric but doesn't get as many spells of each, and maybe even fewer overall as tradeoff for the added versatility?

I've got ranger, druid, paladin, fighter, cleric, thief, and magic-user for classes right now. I feel like adding too many more will dilute the game.

My game is pretty basic and I tend to hand wave economics since most players don't give a shit. However, has anyone read Grain Into Gold and applied the concepts into their worlds? I have been reading it and enjoying the content quite a bit.

I have a preference for the race classes serving as multiclasses. Like the Elf, dwarf, and halfling of lotfp.

Zak's roll on tables and tGLoG handle multi-classing well.

Otherwise, you need to address it as it comes up or burn like 10 hours fruitlessly.
In the latter case, The Complete Warlock (old trove, supplements) should help.

As it was in the One True AD&D 2e, so it should be always. You multiclass from the getgo, or you 'dual class' which is SORT of like the 3.pf bullshit except it has a high barrier of entry and you can't go back once you abandon a class. It's also human only, the one thing they get other than access to all classes. Learning a new class should be most of a lifetime of effort, not something you just 'pick up' when you have a spare level handy. Demihumans are exceptional in their ability to practice so many professions simultaniously and actually advance them with any skill, while human geniuses can eventually reach something like that level if they live long enough.

I think you're on the right track with making things a full mix. If you don't want to homebrew something, ACKS offers a pre-built way to mix and match class features with XP balancing already built in if you want a solution right out of the box. It handles tradeoffs like fewer spell slots as well.

Try this too. The Elf was the very first Fighter/Mage after all.

>so I am thinking of making it work like dual-classing or gestalt classes. Maybe it does work like gestalt classes but the XP to level up is doubled?
Literally AD&D multi-classing. x.p. is divided between your classes' separate pools, h.p. is divided by your number of classes, and abilities with item restrictions get a bit laxer (but not completely).
You only tend to be one level behind though, so aside from the h.p. hit, multi-classing is a no brainer if you qualify.

Something you're missing about 3e gestalt is that feat shortage keeps it in check.

That sounds neat. Anyone have a link to it?

Considering they came out of the same OD&D rule, I don't get why they're separate
Replace dual-class with: add a multi-class whenever but you take the h.p. hit upfront and all x.p. goes to the new class until you catch-up
Bam! Pretty.

Every hex has either a major feature (city,big temple, ancient ruined castle, etc) or a minor feature (town, (ruined) fort, magical phenomena), and a 25% chance a hidden feature (which you only find if you get lucky or spend a day or two poking about there, and that usually at least have the potential to be beneficial)

[1] Save vs Explosive Decompression
[2] Save vs Hostile Atmosphere
[3] Save vs Acidic Humidity
[4] Save vs Sexbot Malfunction
[5] Save vs Tractor Beam
[6] Save vs SPACE MADNESS
[7] Save vs Alien Lungfish (it lives in your lung)
[8] Save vs Security System Autotarget
[9] Save vs Teleporter Accident
[10] Save vs Teleportation Trap
[11] Save vs Alien Probe
[12] Save vs Malevolent Ship AI
[13] Save vs Event Horizon
[14] Save vs Gravity Anomaly
[15] Save vs Alien Cuisine
[16] Save vs Horrible Cosmic Truth
[17] Save vs Death Ray
[18] Save vs Extradimensional Attention
[19] Save vs Prying Eyestalks
[20] Save vs Flying Alien Kung-Fu
[21] Save vs Sonic Weaponry
[22] Save vs Psychic Mind-Control
[23] Save vs Psychic Mutation
[24] Save vs Psychic Backlash
[25] Save vs Suit Malfunction
[26] Save vs Alien Parasite
[27] Save vs Cybernetic Sickness
[28] Save vs Cybernetic Hack
[29] Save vs Irresistible Bug-Alien Mating Dance
[30] Save vs Time Compression
[31] Save vs Nervous System Overload
[32] Save vs Seeker Drones
[33] Save vs Allergic Reaction
[34] Save vs Rapid Heat Loss
[35] Save vs Acid Spit
[36] Save vs Infectious Mushroom Spores
[37] Save vs AI gaining self-awareness
[38] Save vs Reality Tears
[39] Save vs Relativistic Currency Fluctuations
[40] Save vs Space Pirate Roadblocks
[41] Save vs Meteorite
[42] Save vs Cryotube Malfunction
[43] Save vs Evolutionary Dead End
[44] Save vs Nano-Machines
[45] Save vs Galactic Bureaucracy
[46] Save vs Galactic Bureaucracy Taxes
[47] Save vs SICO organ-melting beam
[48] Save vs Plucky Underdog Uprising
[49] Save vs Cosmic Radiation
[50] Save vs Mind Uplink Singularity Nightmare

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