Was postmodernism as harmful to tabletop RPGs as it was to all other media?

What the fuck even is postmodernism
am I a brainlet for not understanding it

Well postmodernism in tabletop RPGs is stuff like characters lampshade hanging or leaning on the fourth wall. Check this out for examples tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Postmodernism

>It's the ultimate evil
He said postmodernism, not corporatism.

You'd think that, but most of the time it feels to me like postmodernism in RPGs is taken to mean poorly designed narrativist bullshit mechanics, X cards and lots of minorities in the artwork, combined with a certain smug attitude towards all previous games.

>gengisface.mng

The captions on the bottom are hilarious.

Post Modernism is not harmful to media. It's simply not appreciated by nostalgiafags like you.

I think this line of thinking, or at least that comic, rely on really vague and incorrect definitions of both postmodernism and modernism. All the abstractions and questions of mechanical production that conservative critiques rail against are modernist concerns in art.

As an intellectual movement post-modernism broadly refers to a lot of the ideas and schools of thought which started to emerge in the second half of the twentieth century. It was often a direct reaction against 'modernist' views of the world. It tends to emphasize uncertainty, complexity, and just generally spends a lot of time picking things apart and questioning any assumptions that have previously been made about the world.
A very large number of people who are popularly identified as postmodernists actually rejected the label quiet strongly, so it certainly isn't a coherent intellectual movement.

In art postmodernism usually refers to embracing things like irony, metatextuallity and the subversion or rejection of established conventions and forms for characters, narratives and aesthetics.

Well you can end up to fascist corporatism with postmodernist principles. Any idea that centralizes power is evil. Also it's basically just thinly veiled marxism.

The problem with post-modernism and rpgs mixing is that metanarratives, and every structure that comes with them, aren't dispensable parts of the game or you'd just play a shitty wargame instead.

The total rejection of all notions of concrete notions of truth and beauty would explain some of the shitty fantasy art we get, but it's more likely the artists are simply unskilled.

Veeky Forums seems to hate it, then

since they have a strong negative association of many of these things
since 4th wall breaking and lampshade hanging is seen as immersion breaking
subversion and convention breaking is seen as hipsterism and special snowflakism
and use of aesthethics for anything other than its original use, like light and friendly things being used to represent evil, is deemed unnecessary

the most common arguments are some variant of either "it aint broke dont fix it" or "its a red flag for a bad player "

Did the faggot who drew this really expect people to read all this shit

It's pretty funny in a "they really think people will buy that?" way. Also

Postmodernism largely hasn't touched tabletop gaming, with the exceptions being stuff like Everyone is John.

OP's pic is still accurate ofc

Well it is a red flag. Post-modernists in art tend to be unbearable. This isn't a solo form of media. If you want to deconstruct and subvert fantasy narratives and laugh at how stupid everyone else is you go write a novel on your own and jack off to your toe nail clippings rather than play a game with other people. Irony and nick picking are lonely sports.

What does that have to do with postmodernism though

We're all basically postmodernists tho. It's a natural consequence of a world where people lost faith in authority and big causes that even something with premises and conclusions counter to that of postmodern liberalism (eg. the alt right, which is a postmodern right) gets some brownie points that mainstream conservatism never got because it uses transgressive, antithetical methods that our collective postmodern worlview sees as a good or at least legitimate methodology.

Like I said, something like Everyone is John deconstructs the standard roleplaying experience and subverts the usual narratives (with its focus on mundanity). There's no reason for you to assume postmodernism is some smug circlejerk all the time.

>post structuralism
>centralizing power

Wew lad

He's just playing along with OP, user.

I mean really, aren't many threads on Veeky Forums themselves simply postmodern roleplaying? Trolls playing with trolls, people "falling" for bait, false-flaggers merely pretending...

:^)

are you having an aphasia user

what

Yes. It's terminal. Don't make fun of me too much.

haha check out mr aphasia here he's gonna fucking die what an autist

You're posting in a postmodern thread right now.

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>I mean really, aren't many threads on Veeky Forums themselves simply postmodern roleplaying?

This is why I actually don't get the Mage's Guild etc. threads being banned alongside quests. Like, dude, you're not gonna stop folks from herd roleplaying on Veeky Forums, you're just gonna make them roleplay way more obnoxious shit.

I mean is that the point? Is that the goal? If so it's working, sure, I just don't understand why that would be the goal.

>This is why I actually don't get the Mage's Guild etc. threads being banned alongside quests. Like, dude, you're not gonna stop folks from herd roleplaying on Veeky Forums, you're just gonna make them roleplay way more obnoxious shit.
>I mean is that the point? Is that the goal? If so it's working, sure, I just don't understand why that would be the goal.

It's simple, user. Our mod isn't interested in those things, so they're not Veeky Forums-related anymore. Our mod is interested in CYOAs and TowerGirls, so those things are Veeky Forums-related. Why would things that our mod isn't interested in be allowed on his board?

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>Veeky Forums is one person

Regardless, in any given group, there will be three subgroups of opinions on any given thing. These groups are as follows: Like It, Hate It, and Don't Care About It. The less the whole group understands that thing, the more strongly each will feel about it and the more they'll hate the other two groups.

See: Skub.

Well, I legitimately hope he is interested in political shitposting, then, because his actions are promoting the everliving hell out of it.

>Well, I legitimately hope he is interested in political shitposting, then, because his actions are promoting the everliving hell out of it.
The mods are also under orders to ignore political shitposting because more traffic means more ad revenue for Hiro, and /pol/tards are the largest demographic on the site at this time.

More like the product of post modernist art on a modernist society, we're something between most of the time.
We tend to adhere to the objectivity of human understanding of science and technology. And as you mentioned still see things in terms of the validity of methodologies, which is contrary to the post-modernist view. There are no valid methodologies to a post-modernist, just whatever sounds nice to you. Most people are just modernists with a dash of subversiveness, so they embrace authority in a way that they believe goes against the grain. They don't go full retard, just a quarter at most. Rationalism is far to prevalent for us to be a post-modernist society: we don't present arguments, but we try to. Ironically the rejection of notions of strict rationality is the only sentiment I like from post-modernism, and it's the part with the least traction in our culture.

I'm literally talking about post-modernist artists in particular user. Please read things.

That's the irony of it all though: when they are told nothing is true, men make their own truths with force.

Actually not true. They delete, then ban for a day when the political shitposting grows to annoy multiple people.

oh regular moot. I miss you so. Why did you have to sell us to japan moot?
He just doesn't seem to share the vision.

I see. So nothing's going to get better.

What's the new hated rival site that's like reddit, then? I think I'm too old for this shit.

I think reddit might still be the new one?
I am not sure. It seems like just yesterday it was you the man now dog. It could have changed already and I wouldn't know.

It's basically been infinitechan for the past few years. The population's fair-to-middling and the thread speeds are a good bit slower, so you can have threads that last for weeks at a time.

We've been our own hated rival for a while now user. We devoured too many of the old ones.

I -do- hate other boards far more than I hate any other website right now. You might have a point.

Voat.

>The population's fair-to-middling

Oh, what, it's not a ghost town? Last time I checked was about a year ago and it was frankly kinda sad.

That's the problem. There isn't really a comparable replacement for Veeky Forums that isn't an overly moderated hellhole. Retards come here and shit things up because they have no attachment to the board or games, so posting bait, fetish shit, and reheated /pol/ leftovers doesn't bother them since they can move on.

Meanwhile I'm watching the board I have loved for almost a decade get shit on and all I can do is feebly yell as the tidal wave of piss washes over everything.

Population sizes for non-Veeky Forums imageboards changes with the seasons. Plus, not all threads interest all posters. The PDF Share threads they have there can get almost as active as the ones here, for instance.

>Meanwhile I'm watching the board I have loved for almost a decade get shit on and all I can do is feebly yell as the tidal wave of piss washes over everything.
Been on Veeky Forums for 11 years now. Every day more and more people tell me that I'm a newfag from [OTHER WEBSITE].

So why do Petersonfags hate it so much? It sounds pretty reasonable.

Alright, as someone with a degree in the subject, most of y'all are dumb. Postmodernism started in like the 40's. What you're mad about is actually post-structuralism and the idea that we are so much smarter than all of human history due to our technology. Society as a whole is, but on average we're just as dumb as we ever were.

You're a cool guy user.

I hear ya, anons.
Life is tough for the oldfag. I got called a newfag several times this week for insisting on delivering because I was "spoonfeeding".

You're both newfags. I'm a newfag and I've been on Veeky Forums since 2005. Unless you were here at the start, you're a newfag.

Fucking newfags.

Because you can't build a solid structure on it and it always subverts/corrupts and attacks.

I've been here since 1999.

stop reminding me how recently Veeky Forums has started, user.
You are reminding me it will die one day.
Or effectively die by turning into something I don't want any more.

because the political postmodernists are driving for the socialist utopia

>And as you mentioned still see things in terms of the validity of methodologies, which is contrary to the post-modernist view
If you take it to that extent, than the logical conclusion of postmodernism is deconstructing itself. However, to have any sort of epistemology, as a movement it has to at least believe in the utility of its methodology.

From what I've seen by today's underwater setting threads, they literally just delete the thread in question without doing anything about the /pol/ posters.

But we need a little bit of socialism, user.

we need taxing, not socialism

Actually 2005 is the cutoff for oldfags, so I make the cut. Anyone from before then is an originalfag.

It's very difficult to engage in post-modernism in ttrpgs because at some level the developer of a system is making a ruleset which implicitly endorses a version of "reality" which can't be subject to critique by the players. The rules of the game are meant to provide an objective structure and can't meaningfully be negotiated.

The strongest example of 'post-modernism' I see in the hobby is in the Martial/Caster disparity debates wherein some people have simply taken to critiquing the use of "magic" as a literary concept and the philosophical underpinnings of a natural/supernatural divide as a way of solving the perceived problem.

Nah, I've caught a couple of bans over the last year or so for pointing out that /pol/ has no real stake in arguing about politics on Veeky Forums, taking bait a little too hard in the process. It's only ever for a day at a time, but it does happen.

Most of the people you pick out as /pol/acks are just shitposters, not people who actually understand what they're talking about. They regurgitate the lolsoedgy racism/sexism/wannabe neo-Nazi junk, but have no substance for any of it.

user, you don't actually have to be from /pol/ to be a /pol/ shitposter.

From what I can tell any fiction that is self aware of fictional tropes that it itself takes part in.
The scream movies would be post modernism for example

Nice comic, though i really don't get the whole "trying to make the world better", he's only saying that because most post-modernists are left wing and hypocritically apply post-modern criticism only to right wing beliefs. Being post-modern and progressive feels like a contradiction.

These people are like an irresponsible wizard that summons a demon he can't actually control. It can just as easily kill either side.

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yep all you need to be is not stepping in line

That place is even more /pol/ than here though.

>inb4 we had shit threads back then anyway
>inb4 somehow magically the shit threads weren't 'as bad' with quests and 1d4chan-tier homebrew around too
>inb4 more fu/qst/ick tears

no, you can step out of line in many, many ways that aren't /pol/ posting. /pol/ posting is a very specific type of rulesbreaking behavior.

For instance: If I were to start posting blueberry porn right now, it would be out of line, but it would not be /pol/posting.

It's why identity politics are so big these days and it rejects the idea that two people who don't agree can sit down, talk to each other, and both come out better than they went in. It's also pic related.

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It's less "tears" and more "We told you so" at this point, given how their dire predictions have come true.

The whole point of the comic is the retarded conflation of postmodernism with youthful progressivism

>Do people that shove tins of spaghetti up their anus' and screech have a negative impact on a medium
yes, yes they do

Veeky Forums has gone down hill rapidly over the last three years.

We need a little bit of government. Not the same thing.

>It's less "tears" and more "We told you so" at this point, given how their dire predictions have come true.
I've been here since 2016, retard. Veeky Forums was always like this.

The fact that I have to qualify that this post is made in jest makes me sad.

Or I should say the illusory conflation of the two in the minds of many critics of progressivism

"Narrativist" mechanics in my opinion are not examples of post-modernism. These mechanics are usually modeling a set of tropes, which are built upon some in-setting conception of what should be. It's still 'simulating' something, just not the real world.

Narrativist mechanics still have boundaries. The game itself, or the idea of 'games' or the concept of having fun, or expectations of the social arrangements for a particular session aren't up for debate. There is no competing "narrative" within the framework of the game. Your "narratives" only compete once you've all have agreed to the rules.

Of course this is a huge problem in post-modernist critiques in that the introductory form is itself not subject to criticism. Ultimately any expression of post-modernism in ttrpgs would have to be in the literary aspects of the game's settings and stories.

>since 4th wall breaking and lampshade hanging is seen as immersion breaking
It would appear to me this is only a red flag if you attempt to codify it. I've seen plenty of pointless arguments on this board where the fundamental conceit is that some sort of OOC knowledge should translate to IC knowledge and if you don't let me do that the DM is a railroading cunt. Then they turn around and shit all over fate points because they're not "immersive"

man, has it ever.
I like to tell myself it's because I am on a more nocturnal schedule, and australians are just bad people, but I worry it's not the case.

Accurate

You don't understand postmodernism or even Jordan Peterson for that matter

it was actually fairly well shown to be inaccurate by
who showed many ways you could step out of line without being a /pol/poster.

The whole site has and the primary cause is lack of moderation.

I wouldn't say a lack of moderation, just incorrect moderator precidents and rulesets.