So Veeky Forums, explain this

RumChicken
RumChicken

So Veeky Forums, explain this. Wizards have specifically said they push strong and weak cards in set design for various reasons - healthy Limited/Sealed environment, teaching card evaluation, appealing to different player types (Timmy/Spike/Vorthos).

Why then did the owner of my LGS get abusive when I engaged in a friendly trade with a new player, trading some big, fun Timmy cards that fitted his play style for dual and fetchlands he didn't have a use for?

They didn't fit his deck, he did not appreciate their mechanical value and I traded rare cards for rare cards.

So why did my LGS owner feel the need to suspend me from the store? I asked the player what rares from my binder he wanted to trade for the card I wanted, and we both got a useful card for our decks.

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rotlaw.com/legal-library/what-is-silent-fraud/

Soft_member
Soft_member

Nice bait

Burnblaze
Burnblaze

Because you card sharked him, you fucking nigger. It's probably Timmy's fault too because everyone with a smart phone is an MTG financier but you knew better and did it anyway you fucking vulture. I'd have perma banned you from my shop.

AwesomeTucker
AwesomeTucker

He's just exercising his right to not do business with faggots

Spazyfool
Spazyfool

Explain what was unfair about the deal. He wanted to trade away an RB fetch land, as he played GW and didn't have.a use for it. I let him choose what he wanted from the binder - he chose a big, fun Timmy card.

Supergrass
Supergrass

Can't tell if fake
you all fucked up
you for being a value shark
new player for being new
store owner for getting in on the business between two players that didn't involve actual money

you all deserve to be shot, timmy less so because his fault was just ignorance

MPmaster
MPmaster

Why does your shos owner monitor trades?

I mean, given that he knew what you did, i think banning you is appropriate, but im curious how and why he found out.

AwesomeTucker
AwesomeTucker

Trades have to be done in the gamimg area after a case where urban youth playing Yugioh enriched the store culturally after a dispute about the number of parts of Exodia.

value shark

Value is subjective - a card that your deck needs has higher intrinsic value than one you don't need.

StrangeWizard
StrangeWizard

store owner for getting in on the business between two players that didn't involve actual money
is probably the biggest offender here, I can't actually believe that some people will stop people from trading cards in a trading card game
news at eleven, some people will get scammed when they do deals, and the best way for them to learn is to get scammed in such a way. I also don't believe that anyone was scammed in Op's example, which was obviously bait and never happened but outside of it OP was in his right. If you're in it for the fun, you don't think about the value of cards and then it doesn't matter to you

Spazyfool
Spazyfool

value is subjective
this shit is exactly what a value shark says
justifying unfair trades with semantics

please neck yourself

Crazy_Nice
Crazy_Nice

I think the owner banner you for other reasons than what you stated

Booteefool
Booteefool

Don't be a Jew.

farquit
farquit

Why would a new player have fetchlands in the first place?

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askme
askme

What is unfair about trading a card you don't want for one you do?

Answer the question without moral sophistry.

kizzmybutt
kizzmybutt

I can understand it from a, "I don't want you to drive off one of my new customers because you know a value of something and they don't" point of view, but it looks like a huge overreach.

Carnalpleasure
Carnalpleasure

New players buy booster packs.

AwesomeTucker
AwesomeTucker

take advantage of new player
the inexperienced will only desire what he desires in the limited experience he has
the new player has no experience that trades usually follow the idea of trading X Price for X Price

im starting to agree with

you probably got banned for being an autist

FastChef
FastChef

If I were a new player I probably wouldn't touch a $10 booster without knowing what's inside of it.

SomethingNew
SomethingNew

yeah, even then it's pretty extreme

Emberfire
Emberfire

Trips of truth.
For all the Muh Freedom Muh Esjaydubya Mindcontrol Muh Librul Safespace Agenda Reeeeing, you faggots get incredibly assmad when someone chooses to exercise his rights.

JunkTop
JunkTop

OP is probably a fet, ill-smelling neckbeard that hasn't bought product beyond a can of Monster in the store for a year or something. Pulling a fast one on a newbie was just the last straw to kick his putrid ass from the premises.

Stark_Naked
Stark_Naked

Value is subjective - a card that your deck needs has higher intrinsic value than one you don't need.
those cards have significant monetary value. i'd ban you for life for grifting in my shop you fucking punk-ass.

Nojokur
Nojokur

Truth dubs

eGremlin
eGremlin

Not even OP, but those cards have a value of precisely what people are willing to pay for them. Wizards can't put a pricetag on singles without Packs being gambling.

takes2long
takes2long

If he's an adult it's his fault for not researching the value. If you tried to cheat a kid our of his pocket money, fuck you

Poker_Star
Poker_Star

secondary market doesn't exist if I don't believe it does
a person or entity using technicalities to cover up being an asshole, just makes you look like a bigger asshole

Ignoramus
Ignoramus

He's not wrong tho. Plus if he was upfront with the value of the cards being traded than there's absolutely nothing wrong with what he did. Which makes me think he wasn't upfront with the value of the cards.

girlDog
girlDog

Especially considering places like LGS live and die on their reputation. So a store owner can't really abide his store developing a reputation for being a hang out for people who are going to swindle noobs out of their high-end cards.

iluvmen
iluvmen

Well it seems fine because the secondary market doesn't exist and all cards are only worth the cost of a booster pack.

StonedTime
StonedTime

Hey dude, the value of money is completely imaginary, so stealing or embezzling it is A-OK.

Booteefool
Booteefool

I can understand if it's a super specific utility card for a certain deck, but fetches and duals are basic toolkit cards that everyone needs. You should have told the kid what he had. If he still wants to trade after that, then whatever.

SniperWish
SniperWish

Financial value is not subjective. You preyed on a childs ignorance like some kid diddler to snipe his most valuable cards. A fair trade woulda been to give him enough timmy (aka binder bulk) to be within 10% of the trade. Go neck yourself.

lostmypassword
lostmypassword

did you trade him value for value? or did you scam him out of a $60 card by trading a few dollar rares?

i know people that do this and i tell them straight to their face that they're scumbags and basically stealing. then i also tell them they're going to hell, because they're religious types, ironically.

farquit
farquit

is probably the biggest offender here, I can't actually believe that some people will stop people from trading cards in a trading card game
news at eleven, some people will get scammed when they do deals, and the best way for them to learn is to get scammed

How about we just don't let people scam people? How about fucking that?

OP's story is fake and bait but similar people exist and they should get lifetime bans as standard practice. You want to talk about "toxic behavior", there's nothing more toxic than stealing $500 from a new player and claiming it's okay because he's only going to realize he was robbed a few years later.

Fuck that shit. Lifetime bans for everybody who doses that, from the store, from DCI, from the world.

Ignoramus
Ignoramus

Store owner has no business infringing in a personal trade. OP has no business griping about a ban. Literally he can ban anyone he doesn't like for any reason, but what OP did is not wrong. I've traded down tons of times. Pulled foil fetches and duals during prerelease and traded for junk rares just because I'm a fucking Johnny and want Johnny cards.

girlDog
girlDog

but you know you are down trading, a new player has no damn clue he is getting ripped off
difference is experience
you are initiating the trade instead of a value shark scheming for opportunity

every week I get asked, because I play standard
"do you have any rekindling phoenix, i'll trade for [insert shit rare here]"

if I was inexperienced I wouldn't know to look up the values of cards or understand why some cards are more coveted than others, but I know better and tell them to eat a dick

Methshot
Methshot

new players buy booster packs
and OP doesn't. I guarantee he gets all of his cards online, waddles up to the LGS on the weekends, avoids the other unshowered neckbeards and tries to swindle new players to the game while doing nothing to contribute to the business of the store. OP isn't mad that he got kicked out, he's mad that the owner saw through his bullshit.

King_Martha
King_Martha

If you're preying on new players its better to ban you from the store in the long run if they want to grow at all.

Soft_member
Soft_member

Because WotC blatantly lied and you already know that. You know that pushing cards is absolutely just for shekels and you know that their excuses are horse-shit, so stop getting hung up about it. A thread died for this.

Ignoramus
Ignoramus

There was absolutely nothing wrong about this!
I have made bad trades on purpose many times, believe me!
It's an absolutely legitimate thing to do!
I am also not OP! :^)

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Supergrass
Supergrass

what OP did is not wrong

What OP did is absolutely morally and ethically wrong and if you don't understand why, you need to die in a holocaust you godforsaken jew. Abusing a new player's lack of knowledge on the financial value of things is only different from robbery in that it's technically legal.

haveahappyday
haveahappyday

it's only different from robbery in the sense that it lacks the defining quality that separates robbery from mutual exchange of property
So nothing like robbery then.

Snarelure
Snarelure

It's called Fraud you fucking faggot.

StrangeWizard
StrangeWizard

profit is theft
That's commie talk.

Booteefool
Booteefool

It's not theft, it's fraud or deliberate deception. This is an object of law, at least in civilized countries.

CouchChiller
CouchChiller

How, exactly, is two people making a mutual exchange fraud? He didn't lie about anything.

Spazyfool
Spazyfool

That assumes that Timmy's objective in the trade was to receive equal dollar value. If Timmy doesn't care about the dollar value of his cards, who are you to tell him that he must?

Fried_Sushi
Fried_Sushi

Lying and purposefully keeping back important information for the trade means the trade was not made in good faith by the grifter. It is a scam. I would ban someone trying to scam new players by withholding information.

lostmypassword
lostmypassword

We're assuming it was, if the Timmy's objective was not that then OP can petition the Timmy to speak to the store owner. Gonna assume that's not what happened.

Flameblow
Flameblow

fuck off u cunt

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DeathDog
DeathDog

purposefully keeping back important information for the trade
That's normal, like everywhere

Poker_Star
Poker_Star

What did he lie about? What information did he publicly keep back?

Card prices are public information, unless he kidnapped Timmy and prevented him from accessing the Internet he could not have withheld that information.

GoogleCat
GoogleCat

I can buy my groceries for damn near half the price at Costco than I can at my local supermarket. Are they attempting to defraud me by not volunteering the fact that Costco has better prices for the same products?

BlogWobbles
BlogWobbles

Good for you, and your FLGS dude is a cunt, probably wanted to get the card himself for a few shitty rares.

I didn't play MTG in a long time, but back in my day, Card Sharking was the most common try to get the rares you wanted.

Since when did the Social Justice Brotherhood infiltrate the community. What a cancer, jesus christ. Back in my day, we learned from mistakes like this, not by some dickhole preachers saying what is acceptable for a MTG trade and what isn't.

Good thing I stopped

Raving_Cute
Raving_Cute

Same with diamonds. Lock up the (((JEW)))elers!

haveahappyday
haveahappyday

Store owner has no business infringing in a personal trade.
It's a private business you fucking cunt, I can ban anyone for any reason I want. Get. Over. It.

Methshot
Methshot

OP you're a huge jackass and I hope you die, but this is fantastic bait I give it an unironic 10/10.

SomethingNew
SomethingNew

Little boy has a Pokemon card I want that's £40
I trade him eight £5 cards that aren't in rotation that he thinks are cool
Who was in the wrong here? Nobody was.

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Sharpcharm
Sharpcharm

this guy
You're obligated to tell him the financial value of high priced cards, assuming you have this knowledge. If you don't, you're morally incorrect because you're abusing hidden information to take advantage of someone.

If he knows the price of his cards and chooses to trade anyways, power to you. If he has no idea and you fleeced him, banning you is much more polite than what my shop would do. We have what's referred to as the "fuck you" wall, and doing shady shit to take advantage of kids gets you banned from every shop in the city, as well as ostracized from any metas that monitor that jazz.

Right now there are 4 people on that list: one guy literally stole a binder of alpha cards and got caught with it in his backpack; another guy spilled his drink on some dude's $2K deck after a table flip; and the other two kept scamming kids out of their cards after we warned them what would happen.

viagrandad
viagrandad

obligated
By what? What law? And what even determines "value", that shit fluctuates all the time and for the most bullshit reasons, it's artificially scarce cardboard.

Again, is my local supermarket attempting to defraud me because they are charging 3.80 for a gallon of milk, without divulging to me the fact that I could get that same gallon for 2.80 at their competitor?

Sir_Gallonhead
Sir_Gallonhead

You're arguing semantics. There is a moral imperative not to be a dick. If you choose to be a dick, that's up to you, but if you act like a dick with knowledge that you're being a dick, then you're a dick.

Firespawn
Firespawn

rotlaw.com/legal-library/what-is-silent-fraud/

There's also the part about not being a piece of shit, especially towards young, new, and inexperienced players.

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StonedTime
StonedTime

As someone who worked a Pokemon League for a couple of months, fuck you. I saw so many kids get scammed and parents had no idea.

Sir_Gallonhead
Sir_Gallonhead

He traded £40 for £40...

Methshot
Methshot

What if the cards were standard playable? Like say, Gumshoos GX or Kommo-ox-GX? Like 6 of those.

cum2soon
cum2soon

Burgers don't know that Christianity, their religion, has a lot in common with Communism
they still believe scamming people is okay if it's legal
People of color me surprised.
Yes, that kind of profit for Christianity is theft.

Burnblaze
Burnblaze

this idiot doesn't have all the facts but his desires are equal in value to those of mine, who does have all the facts
nah you're a fag

Methnerd
Methnerd

Exactly what I was talking about here

I am not religious but if you are you must know that by Jesus' standards if you do that you're going straight to hell, no doubt about that.

Fried_Sushi
Fried_Sushi

You clearly aren't familiar with the prosperity gospel. God favored OP over the new player.

Ignoramus
Ignoramus

That's the jew sacred book, we new testament here.

New_Cliche
New_Cliche

why did my LGS owner feel the need to suspend me from the store?
Because free enterprise, same reason you did what you did.

cum2soon
cum2soon

Value trading is fucking obnoxious. As long as both participants KNOW the value of their cards then there's nothing wrong with doing a financially unequal trade.

I cannot fucking count the number of times some fucking autist will look for 0.65 in the rest of my trades because otherwise he'd "get ripped off".

That said, OP is probably a faggot because I don't think that he told the little Timmy how much the fetch was worth.

VisualMaster
VisualMaster

That's the jew sacred book, we new testament here.
That's American Christianity.

ZeroReborn
ZeroReborn

Technically those cards are only worth MSRP and the secondary market is wholly imaginary.

TechHater
TechHater

a new player has no damn clue he is getting ripped off
You're basically saying that no one is allowed to merely enjoy playing the game and be satisfied with trades based on that alone; they HAVE to treat it as Cardboard Stock Market Simulator™.

idontknow
idontknow

If the player knew how much he could sell those fetches for, he could even trade them for store credit and buy a few packs or browse their binders for way more fun cards instead.

BinaryMan
BinaryMan

The entire argument hinges on this:
was timmy aware of the price difference?
From this thread we can see that the answer was no.

if Timmy was aware of the price difference would he have still made the trade?
I am guess that no, he would have not. If he would have then the banned user can ask the timmy to petition the store owner for him.

No one is arguing that that timmy did not want the card, we are arguing that he could have gotten far more for the card if he knew its value and traded at equal value, and if timmy has known/had full information in a good faith deal he would have done so.

Either way it is a scam, the man was aware that he was trading up for value in the extreme and likely guessed that timmy was not aware of the value. Really this hinges on the two facts I states above. If the answer to both was no that really just makes OP a scumbag who scammed someone out of money. The deal was not made in good faith by both parties and if this was anything but cardboard there wouldn't even be an argument that he was a scammer.

Really the store owner was in the right for banning him, if his store gets a reputation with having more experienced players who try and scam less experienced players out of valuable cards then his store will go under, assuming that is what OP was attempting to do, which by this thread it has become obvious he was.

JunkTop
JunkTop

All value is imaginary.

I just took the twenties out of the register and replaced them with ones, why can't we just exchange pieces of paper for pieces of paper, we don't HAVE to treat them like they represent some sort of value.

cum2soon
cum2soon

Was OP withholding information pertinent to the deal in this case the value of what was being bartered for because he knew Timmy would not have agreed to the deal otherwise?

If the answer to this is yes, then it was a scam. If the answer was no and timmy would have made the deal regardless then the ban should not have occurred. However the answer I am thinking would have been yes.

RavySnake
RavySnake

This thread is bait, but OP implied that he was trading a 40 cent bulk rare for a $20 fetchland, taking advantage of the new player's ignorance. The banning of this sort of scumfuck is justified.

Flameblow
Flameblow

All value is imaginary.
abstain from nutrients or shelter for a year to see the natural consequence of that reasoning

Spamalot
Spamalot

Bank notes have a clearly defined value. The value of the currency unit is subjective, but each note is an objective multiple of that unit. Shortchanging can be objectively tracked. In addition, there are laws specifically targeted at this.

Meanwhile, cardboard collectibles can't be objectively compared to one another. The values you see on trading sites are merely the averaged assessments of the player base (and speculating parasites that have turned the hobby into a twisted abomination) that can change at the drop of a hat. There IS no objective value. A player is surely allowed to have a divergent opinion on what is valuable to him and what isn't.

In the case of OP, both players walked away happy. They each got what they asked for and what they wanted, and nobody's under any obligation to pull others into that speculative cesspool that is the card market that has been sucking the fun out of a fucking game for years.

Burnblaze
Burnblaze

But even if you die, that's only because you had the imaginary quality of wanting to not die. If you're okay with dying, then nutrients have no value either.

Supergrass
Supergrass

These function on a semantically valid level, but few will live the argument out, making it sound. That is my point, semantically imaginary, arbitrary, etc. Many like imagine themselves as brains in vats, but usually only the schizophrenic or alzheimers patient embody it.

Methnerd
Methnerd

profit =/= fraud or deception

if both parties are informed, and timmy still is willing to trade a $60 card for some dollar bin jank, that's his problem. but timmy is not informed, and thus the experienced one is defrauding timmy.

it's called lying by omission.

ZeroReborn
ZeroReborn

if both parties are informed
There are basically no commercial transactions for which this is actually true in the first place.

PackManBrainlure
PackManBrainlure

yeah but you don't want your store to be known as the place where people get scammed or have people who are known to scam people at.

ZeroReborn
ZeroReborn

I think the reason he kicked you out of the store is that you're a cunt. But do you want a solid business reason why he doesn't want you in the store? He doesn't want a reputation of catering to cunts. If his store is full of stories about how his regulars are scammers who will fleece newbies and casuals, he doesn't get to attract newbies and casuals. Do you want a store full of you? Do you think for a second you would like to deal with people just like you? You'd hate every bitter minute of it, and seek out stores that have the newbie, casual fish to fry.

TurtleCat
TurtleCat

Healthy player environment is pivotal for card shops to sustain themselves. Rats are bad for the environment.

Evil_kitten
Evil_kitten

but is the scalding tarn worth YOUR ETERNAL SOUL?

probably, yes. yes it is.

Sharpcharm
Sharpcharm

/fucking thread

Nude_Bikergirl
Nude_Bikergirl

Take a look at an actual legislative text some time. Shit like this is explicitly called out by anti-fraud laws.

Methnerd
Methnerd

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TurtleCat
TurtleCat

Jesus christ how Veeky Forums has fallen, bait thread like this nearing 100 comments.

5mileys
5mileys

this thread is filled with autistic screeching over a consensual exchange of cards

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haveahappyday
haveahappyday

Black, stop teasing White! Red and Blue are fighting and Green just shit on the carpet, and I really don't have time to deal with this.

FastChef
FastChef

For all the moral highround you pepefags like to take OP is wrong on many fucking levels.

0)There's a moral imperative to treat others like how you would like to be treated, otherwise the world would end up going to shit if everyone acted on egoism and personal gratification all the time, like OP. It's a categorical imperative.

1) A knowledgeable adult may argue that if he makes a bad deal he deserves it since he played his cards wrong, but Timmy made a terrible deal without knowing and lost money because some vulture faggot smelled is ignorance and scammed him. Getting scammed is different from simply making a consensual deal that's more favourable to one party, since on the latter both have a reasonable ammount of knowledge that will let them know what they were doing. Timmy didn't knew shit. OP knew he was taking advantage of someone that doesn't knows the value of what he has. The same way 1lb of scrap metal isn't worth the same as 1lb of gold, a fetch is way more valuable and useful than his timmy cards. He actively chose not to tell the other guy of the value of his things to make a profit out of someone else's ignorance

2)Getting banned from the store. The owner has a private bussiness and he doesn't wants scamming sleazy faggots going around and making people not want to come back to his store. You think little timmy is buying cards again after he realizes he got scammed? The owner lost a client and OP actively made him lose money by chasing away a client.

3)OP is not only a faggot, but a slimy worm. Respectable adults don't scam kids for 20$ of profit

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Fuzzy_Logic
Fuzzy_Logic

if everyone acted on egoism
while OP is most definitely a faggot, social experiments with island humans show that if you only have a select few of 'thieving group' a society can still stand thrive, now when everyone hits a boiling point there is either a purge of the thieving group or the society collapses

getting close to purging point

TreeEater
TreeEater

Saying that society produces enough surplus that it can be stolen/gypped with minimal impact still isn't moral justification for doing it.

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