Horus Heresy General /hhg/

But why?

He likes 8th edition would be my guess. Some people really like the idea of fixing what isn't broken by saying it is broken.

Nice effort user, thanks for that.

I had intended Leader to really be more-or less "the independent character Role", but it's definitely removal for any time of Consul that can't be a compulsory HQ choice in the current FO chart. Part of the perk of using Leader as a Role is the ability to take Leader detachments, with each Leader as a different subrole. Leader detachments could have some kind of superbubble if all the Leaders are within 6" of each other.

>Chaplain
Definitely Spirit I'd say, Bolster is quite a broad rule I had in mind for any unit that boosts others in a general or baseline sense, while maybe not fitting into other setups.

Centurions are meant to be highly flexible and really could turn up in all kinds of lists, so I'd move towards giving them 4 Roles minimum.

>Leader
>Melee
>Battlefront
>Patrol

This reflects their general purpose nature and the fact that they lead forward-lead small parts of larger armed forces.

>Librarian
Replace all four default roles with Psyker and Bolster. Librarians are very rare units that should feel difficult to include in an army, especially en-masse. Changing a Librarian's wargear might not affect their Roles, as they are already predominantly defined by their Psychic powers.

>Master of Signals
Replace all four Roles with Communications, Rifle and Cannon. Even though MoSs don't carry these items themselves, they naturally synergise well with them, so they'll turn up in the same formation as them.

>Champion
Replace Leader and Battlefront with Duellist. I'd also include a special rule in the unit that lets it be taken as a support unit (Retinue) for another model with the Leader rule, adding Duellist to their Role set.

>Forge Lord
Replace Melee, Battlefront and Patrol with Engineer and Construction.

>Primus Medicae
Replace Melee, Leader and Patrol with Medical and Bolster. Again like Champions, let them be taken as a retinue for a Leader, granting the Medical role.
1/2
1/2

>Chaplain
Replace Patrol and Battlefront with Spirit

>Siege Breakers
Replace Patrol, Battlefront and Melee with Demolitions and Cannon, following the same logic as the Master of Signals.

>Vigilator
Replace Melee and Battlefront with one of: Infiltrator, Recon, Scout. I'd freely let players choose one, but with a caveat that all the Vigilators in a single Detachment must have the same Roleset.

>Moritat
Replace all four Roles with Grenadier and Toxic. Let them be taken as a support unit (Master) for a squad of Destroyers, granting the Leader Role.

And so on. For most Consuls that can take a Jump Pack, add Airborne on, and so on. I'm thinking about maybe adding Spearhead to all Consuls as with the Praetor, and having that replaced by other upgrades the same way.

Eeemagdin not reading previous threads.

Read the last thread is why, it's to address the issue with unit taxes and the resulting balance decisions to make Tacs and other troops crap.

Basically Tax units being shit is downstream from them being tax units. Because players are forced to take these units, they have to be made worse combat-wise to compensate and encourage players to take other unit types than just the basic Troops. But this is bad because then you just end up hating the tax units and never take them where possible, and any army that can take unusual Troops choices does so because they're much better for their cost.

The role system proposed in this and the prior thread is designed so that each unit can be freely made powerful enough to be viable (or not super powerful and broken as you no longer have to take just 3 per force), because the compulsory unit restrictions are much more freeform and fluid. Tl:dr read the thread and you'll understand.

Lmao if you actually think 30K ain't broke in many many ways. Regardless no this isn't to do with 8th ed, 8th ed still gives special privilege to Troops which results in them still being shit.

I'm going to eat some dinner now and check back in a few hours or so.

Are you trying to made alredy complicated rules even more complicated?

>tfw about to grab a BoP set for $80
Feels good man.

Would you play against this thunderhawk?

Attached: thunderhawk.jpg (1600x1200, 270K)

>erectile dysfunction

Understandable when your hard for heresy and someone plonks down a basically unpainted Leman Russ.

Go and enjoy your dinner user, but don't come back.

HH is already pretty autistic, but I guess it doesn't satisfy your damaged brain anymore so instead you've decided embrace your defects and take it to a whole new level of autism.

Fuck I'll take the graviton, chain axes and clip-yack over this.

So anyone want to post army fluff? I mentioned my Ordo Reductor fluff a few threads ago
>Agent of the Warmaster visits Ordo Reductor when he is conducting siege asking for him to pledge his support for Horus
>Archmagos tells Warmaster's agents to fuck off and let him continue his siege as he has no time for pointless politics
>Horus takes this as a sign that he intends to support the Emperor instead of the Archmagos just being a war autist
>Horus sends some third rate Imperial Army regiments to drown him in corpses, the Imperial Army forces on the ground already support Horus
>Archmagos is caught between Horus' allies, his former allies on the ground, and the defenders of the world he was besieging attacking him at once
>Archmagos barely escapes, he is forced to abandon a lot of heavy equipment during his retreat
>Makes a B-line towards Terra, pursued by the Imperial Army the entire way intent on fucking up Horus for ruining his siege

Honestly, it sounds more like the Necrons or Tau trying to write human humor than anything else.

>Rangdan Xenocide
>In this campaign, you will be receiving Legiones Astartes support from none less than the renowned warriors of the II and XI Legions
>Hail the Emperor ! Hail the Warmaster !
The original text was a blatant piece of lies anyway, those elements don't fit the chronology. The God-Emperor bless the Munitorum for helping our glorious soldiers instead of permitting such a waste of paper to exist.

True, there was no Warmaster during Xenocides

I only have a rough outline for my boys, the order of the sweeping wave. Their leader is Sukhbataar Khan, a Terran that is basically the opposite of Torghun. He's a full scarboo.

When did Horus become the Warmaster? Also, was he the first to hold that title or could there have been someone before him. I mean, Macharius also held the title of Warmaster, as have others, but due to Horus it carries some bad vibes and people prefer not to use it.

Ullanor was 999 M30 and the wiki says xenocides were in the 860s

000.M31 Triumph at Ullanor
Rangdan Xenocides near 860.M30

Third Rangdan Xenocide was in the 890s.M30.

>Macharius also held the title of Warmaster,
Macharius was Lord Solar which is totally different REEEEE!!!

Nope

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dude, i really like this idea. is it possible that you make some online reference thing online? maybe in a blog or something, id love to get my friend and i to play it.

Don't think so, Tim.

Attached: warmaster solar.jpg (206x231, 19K)

I say again, "REEEEE!!!"

Attached: Lord Solar Machareeeeeeus.png (568x444, 453K)

I've come into a large collection of HH plastic (literally 2 boxes of each set) with a bunch of what looks like recast weapons and upgrades. Dude pitched his budding NL army, which I'm totally planning on keeping as NL. However, I have no real idea where to start because there's so much shit. Looks like most of one calth box is assembled with a bunch magnetized as well as some of the Mkiii dudes who are also mostly magnetized.

However, I'm fucking lost as shit. Do I just start assembling bolter dudes? I see what I'm pretty sure are volkite, presumably for terror squads and a bunch of (poorly) recast what I'm guessing are mkiv jump packs as well.

Any word on Angelus?

is right, but specifically for the third Rangdan Xenocide. 860's was when the first Rangdan Xenocide was.

It's dead, Jim. Next book is "Malevolence", covering AL vs WS and BA vs daemons. Maybe Angelus will be the name of book 9 (covering DA) but currently its off the drawing board.

FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF-

Yeah, it's not terrible, aside from that gun.

But using a kitbashed Thunderhawk AND those Stormtalon things sends the message that you're just kinda cheap.

FW says they expect to use the name Angelus for Book 9, for DA vs. NL and Dark Mech.

Renamed Malevolence, will include Scars but not DA.

I think this Thunderhawk is land raider(back) and 2-3 stormravens kitbashed

>Tyrian Eagles, 33rd Assault Millennial, 1500-3500 marines strong at initial deployment (still deciding strength)
>Favoring mobility, transports, bikes, and aircraft are common among their forces, though their heavy support options are somewhat limited.
>out on crusade, departed 003.M31, waged a lengthy campaign against slippery but tenacious Eldar raiders in a (still unnamed) sector in far north of the Ultima Segmentum bordering the Ghoul Stars.
>finally cleanse the worlds by late 006.M31, begin muster for redeployment to Istvaan, last known location of the Primarch
>astropath picks up Salamanders distress signal
>wot, must be serious if they need back up
>deploy a few ships to investigate
>find heavily battered Salamanders strike cruiser being tailed by two World Eaters cruisers
>"Fulgrim demands that his legion regroup in the Istvaan system immediately, this is our business."
>seems fishy, discussion soon falls apart. One WE ship is sank, other turns tail for Istvaan
>Salamanders give the rundown of what has gone on in the past 3 years. commence "oh shit".
>Salamanders are taken in to be reunited with their forces at a later date. Millennial commanders determine the best course of action to be a running campaign against traitor elements, as a direct confrontation with larger traitor formations is beyond their power
>Spend Heresy performing lightning strikes against rebel forge worlds, garrisons, convoys, and supply bases, salvaging war material when they can

Attached: IIIrd Crest.jpg (719x810, 182K)

The gun isn't even terrible, as it's obviously broken.

>Scars
Who?

Mongolians

Bolter dudes are good, you'll want a fair few of them even if it's just for objective holding. Since full Tac Squads are 20 strong, you might want at least 40 just so you can field two full squads if needed. More is up to you, since although 30k is the realm of huge armies and fluff, it depends on your local meta. There's lots of marine killing options, so depending on your meta it may or may not be viable to field lots of bodies. You'll also want transports at some point.

Volkite is good in the majority of cases, though whether they are chargers (size of a large pistol) or calivers (rifle sized) changes their purpose slightly. Chances are he intended to use them for Support Squads, so I'd look into the rules and see if that's something you'd want to do. I'm also not familiar with NL Legion options, so I'd check those too.

MkIV jump packs have a large central thruster with two tiny ones on the sides, if he had those and some equipment to go with them (CCW, pistols, etc) I'd put them to use, since Assault Squads are also good options.

To add:
>"the Ultramarines of 899.M30 were perhaps on the cusp of becoming so, as their ranks, then at around approximately 166,000 Legionaries, stood them in the forefront of their peers. The Dark Angles, who in the previous decade to this had been undoubtedly the most powerful single Legion, had fallen in number and evened this figure, having suffered massive casualties holding the line during the famed Third Rangdan Xenocide; the blood of 50,000 Space Marines spend in preventing the destruction of perhaps the entire northern Imperium by the menace from the outer darkness."
>Book 5, pg. 96

So, if Ultras were the biggest in 899. and DA were the biggest in the 880's, but got reduced due to the Third Rangdan Xenocide, it must have happened between 880's and 899.

Also, from Book 3, pg. 82:
>"Official accounts found in both the arcanlooms of the Logistica Corpus and the more prosaic works of the Remembrancers place the Alpha Legion's appearance as an active Legion force in its own right to either the decade immediately preceding the commencement of the Farinatus Extermination or as appearing as an unexpected reinforcing power during the darkest days of the third Rangdan Genocides. This represents a discrepancy of some thirty sidereal years"

According to Book 2, pg. 19, Farinatus Extermination was in 972.M30. So if there's a 30 year discrepancy between that and the 3rd Rangdan Genocide, that would place it between 942.M30 and 002.M30. Giving you a timeline after Ullanor and making the Regimental Standard kosher.

Also an interesting bit from Book 7, pg. 81:
>"Facing waves of attack from the galactic east and north, and suffering losses that would not be exceeded until the dark days of the Heresy, the wars of the Rangdan Xenocides were the most terrible of any yet fought. Whole Expeditionary fleets went to their deaths without a single survivor, worlds were laid waste, dozens of Titan Legions were obliterated and by the end, entire Space Marine Legions [REDACTED SECTION] lost to the Imperium. Much of what happened during this abyssal conflict is still locked under seal, but what can be said is that with the breaking of the Labyrinth of Night by the Emperor, the threat was at last stymied."

Which would place redacted Marine Legions during the conflict.

Ullanor was 000.M31
not M30

Meant 002.M31.

Given that it's a 40k Raptors army, Stormtalons aren't exactly out of place. For a kitbash, it's honestly not that bad, since it has the proper weapons, and seems to be the right length+profile too. Good to see the hobby side of the game still in practice.

It's two Storm Ravens and a single Rhino, though who knows what is under that Rhino hull

>Volkite
Pretty sure they're chargers for Terror squads, which are NL elite options that move to compulsory in their RoW. They cause fear and infiltrate, which seems pretty nice.

>jump packs
Yup. They're def mkiv and there's arms and shit it looks like, too. I think I can even do like 20 assault Marines from the looks of it. Hard to say. I even have a few solid recasts of the old metal raptor packs, too. I'll stick them on a character or something.

I would put away 3 boxes and leave 1 to finish. It's a lot of stuff, so it's easy to be demotivated by the workload. I have the same problem myself to be honest.

For Terror squads, volkites are the best but they can take bolters as well. And you will always have use of bolter dudes, so build at least 20 dudes with bolters. Chainglaives and meltabombs for the sarge.

Consider getting some third party jump packs, bolt pistols and ccb weapons so you can build an assault squad using the plastic marines. I'm using CSM pistols and chainswords for mine.
Nightlords get bonuses for outnumbering the enemy, so terminators and jump pack dudes are good since they count as two models.

I would also recommend a chaplain, for added combat punch and it fits the NL theme of him overseeing the punishment of the sinners and the guilty. Add him to an assault squad.

>B-line

Will AL be getting any new units?

no, but they will get models for alpharius and termies

Wasn't it said that SW would also have a showing against the Alpha Legion in order to fix the disaster from Inferno?

Cool. Given their late start, I imagine they're Chemosian. Sounds like they'd not look too highly on the Dark Angels destroying Chemos, even if they were loyal.

Right now, Night Raptors are overcosted, so definitely build a large squad of regular assault marines (15-20) and use Raptor parts for sergeants, characters like a chaplain, maybe an apothecary, etc. I think 15 is a good number for assault marines. I don't like shields as an upgrade but do give them meltabombs.

I'm not a fan of the Terror Assault RoW; Terror squads are good, but not so good as to take three of them. They're basically veterans with a fixed veteran tactic (fear/infiltrate), a nice volkite charger option, but no antitank capability (meltabombs) and fear's overrated against Ld9. I guess you have enough infantry to build 30 of them and run the rite, but also enough to try others. Sacrificial Offering and Jump Assault Vanguard are good fits for NL. Recon Company can be fun too (only take one recon squad, but take the RoW for the 1st turn shrouding).

How the hell would that fix Inferno in your mind?

Same way later releases helped correct legions like the World Eaters. By providing better "alternative" rules that make people ignore the original rules.

They could at least clean up the rules that need clarification - like weapons with different names on different pages (frost blades/swords), stating more clearly that you take a 4th HQ in a 3001+ point army despite the force org chart, etc. If they improve Varagyr and Deathsworn, and maybe bring Grey Slayer weapon upgrade costs in line with pre-Inferno books (ie higher), that's great too.

It certainly doesn't fix the rest of Inferno, but it's something.

None of that is at all appropriate for a black book. That belongs in an FAQ.

And yet that's where it will be.

>That belongs in an FAQ
Inferno's faq is called Malevolence/Angelus

At the weekender, FW's rules guys said they don't like FAQs... they prefer doing it through the books.

I think that's stupid and there isn't going to be a problem with FAQs because they release them so seldomly, but that's how they see things.

>FW
>ever doing a FAQ again

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Attached: Khaaan.gif (321x211, 523K)

>they prefer doing it through the books.

Why give the milk for free when you can charge £100 for the cow?

>FW's rules guys said they don't like FAQs... they prefer doing it through the books
What a bunch of stupid assholes. It would take them a day to answer all the FAQ and improve everyone’s quality of play but instead the pricks leave us on the hook for 2+ years. Are they just going to stick a random post-it note in the books saying what misericordia are?

Or not, as we're not given the length of the section. It could also just be them redacting the part about how 2 entire legions were tasked with wiping out the entire human populations of several sectors.

Or not what? All I'm pointing out is that [REDACTED] Legions took part in that conflict in both the GW and FW telling.

Facetiousness aside, I disagree with either the notion that more complex = bad OR that this is increasing complexity. The real question, beyond being conduce to better unit balance because no hard unit taxes, is if the system is intuitive and easy to pickup. This I'd give a pretty firm tick, as it's summarisable in about two short paragraphs and a three-line summary. Complexity can naturally evolve from there because anything can evolve complexity from good and simple grounding. That's a hallmark of good design, because voluntary complexity is where the fun is.

I'd say you don't understand the first thing about autism if you think anything about HH threads is autistic, or really anything about Veeky Forums for that matter. Spergy, sure, but that's very different.

Also, keep on being salty of course. I mean, if you're genuinely actually bothered about ANY of chain-axes or clip yacks in isolation, you're so much of a limp posy I can't help you, no-one can.

I'll take the Tau, that's actually shocking plausible (if we completely ignore that Tau know little of human history)

I meant it more in that was when they were deployed for that campaign, though I've also been debating when their millennial was 'formed' too. They probably wouldn't have much love for them regardless of their origins, considering that Chemos was a culturally rich world by the time Fulgrim left. The DA's destruction of Chemos would be akin to destroying a piece of fine art, even if they understood that it was necessary.

Thanks! And you, this keeps happening to me. I keep writing things up like that, and getting interest, and I never get around to making a blog of it. It's a mystery to me, whenever I try to just write a blog, a slice of journalish text open for anyone to view, it just doesn't sit right with me. I either type up sparse abstract notes for myself, or I write prosaically while directly addressing others.

Failing that, I just take a screencap of some text and share that as a pic. I wonder what, if anything, would be enough to make me breach the gap to making a blorg.

Tell you what, compile this in a PDF and not random Veeky Forums posts so we can actually peruse it in a functional way, and I, at the very least, will give it a chance.

It's literally two paragraphs, what are you on about. It's contained in a single post from the last thread. Here:

- All unit have a number of Roles attached to them. Roles can be almost anything you'd perceive as a coherent battlefield use, tactic, weapon commonality and so on. Roles could be as universal or army and faction-specific as you like.

- Armies are built out of Detachments. Each Detachment is made of 3-5 unit. The units in a Detachment must all have the following:
- All unit must have at least one Role in common with each other. This is the Detachment's Role.
- Each unit must have at least one Role unique to itself. This is the unit's Subrole within the Detachment.

- Armies can be built out of any number of detachments and of any sort. Including different Detachment types offers different benefits to the member units of the Detachment as well as to the overall force. There are benefits to taking a relatively consistent force as well as one with a strong Role theme.

Summary:
>Units have 2-6 roles
>Armies made of any number of Detachments
>Detachments made of 3-5 units
>Detachment Role - all units must have it
>Unit Subrole - must be unique in the Detachment

-

Not very long. What you're looking at in this thread is developer discussion on how to apply it to 30K. The finished product for that would be a PDF-able body of work. (And what you saw in the last thread was one user not getting that distinction.)

The apportionment of roles is a rather important factor in determining how it would affect balance in 30k.

Without any example as to how someone who knows the system is assigning roles it's impossible to understand how the system actually functions.

Just saying to make it as broad or narrow as we feel like is about as helpful as GW's idea of list balance in release AoS.

>The apportionment of roles is a rather important factor in determining how it would affect balance in 30k.
Yeah of course it is, but that's a follow-on topic. The original topic was "how can be resolve unpleasant tax units in 30K?", which lead on to the "why are the tax units horrible, and why have them at all?". I presented the Role system to demonstrate one alternative that does not have that issue, and is honestly completely more advanced than the FO chart, by virtue of almost anything being more advance than the FO chart.

>Without any example as to how someone who knows the system is assigning roles it's impossible to understand how the system actually functions.
That's patently not true. It's like saying you can't imagine how a ratio works without specific numbers. That's not right, the concept of a 2:1 ratio is understandable without needing the specific examples. Maybe some individuals have trouble with that, I can't say. I tend to assume that everyone involved in Veeky Forums activities is a basic high-school level maths adult. You only need that much ability to comprehend scaling to see how the system works.

>Just saying to make it as broad or narrow as we feel like is about as helpful as GW's idea of list balance in release AoS.
Pretty inapt:
1) That means make a consistent system as broad or narrow as you like. Not just "make up new roles whenever lol" - not to say that's that bad either however - but you can set up a system whichever way. That's why I'm ultimately not hard invested in any particular implemention of the system either which way. You could make an implemention for 30K that uses just 8 roles, and you can make one with a full fat 50 or so, and either could work. This isn't even getting into minor adjustments.
2) It's utterly unrelated because GW didn't print points costs lmao. Without points costs all stuff like this is a moot point. Just take whatever models with whatever upgrades haha, who cares. Finished in another post.

This system doesn't directly address points costs at all; rather points are affected downstream by the changes, because units can no longer have wild disparities in efficacy per-point due to different slot compulsarity.

Same, I have a name- The Brotherhood of the Keening Wind- but that's about it. They're mostly Chogorians, Loyalist force, that's about it.

Who is the worst primarch?

Attached: smile russ.jpg (1024x1453, 294K)

Reminder that Leman Russ did nothing wrong, Magnus had it coming.

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Magnus did many things wrong.
>Made a deal with Tzneetch
>Never told his subordinates anything
>Ignored Nicea because he thinks he knows better than everyone else
>Later banished the guy who actually fixed the flesh change

>Made a deal with Tzneetch

Wasn't that after Prospero?

>Never told his subordinates anything

Knowledge is power.

>Ignored Nicea because he thinks he knows better than everyone else

So did Russ.

>Later banished the guy who actually fixed the flesh change
>turn majority of the legion into dust
>"fix"

Hrm. I would feel silly buying new models at this point, so is there a way to make recons out of normal dudes? I'm not seeing the Drop Vanguard in any of the mega pdfs there's like 4 rites under the praetor list and that's all I'm seeing. In fact, I don't even see the recon or sacrificial offering. I think that pdf is horribly outdated.

Derp. Here's a screen shot

Attached: Capture+_2018-03-29-00-46-06.png (1389x1610, 4.27M)

That's the old Army List book. The new one is linked elsewhere in the op. It has many more RoWs

Oh nice. Missed that. Thanks

So looking at the RoW, it's really not what I was expecting at all. Recon doesn't let me use my tons of termies, and the drop assault doesn't let me use anything except assault Marines and I suppose termies because I can deep strike them. Pride of the Legion or Terror assault seem like the only two reasonable ones unless I'm missing something? TA also lets me use drop pods if it matters. I have 2 of them unassembled, but I noticed they're not a standard transport? 30k is so weird

I'm looking at getting into 30k with a Thousand Sons army, mostly because space wizards, but also because it is (comparatively) lower model-count, and therefore easier to start. I'm leaning towards a veteran-centered Pride of the Legion list (to maximize the amount of space-wizard-ing going on) but I don't want to be a dick.

Other than the obvious (no Magnus, no Sekhmet Terminators, no Terminators of any sort with the Telekinesis cult, etc.) what should I avoid if I expect to be playing friendly games against other Astartes armies and maybe Mechanicum once in a while?

I don't intend to run any more than one terminator squad, nor any vehicles heavier than a single Land Raider (a Proteus with augury array carrying a command squad, to be precise).

Fulgrim. He’s just an all around bitch.

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A single squad of Sekhmets is fine, especially if you interpret their rules as not actually picking the powers you want. I think you really want to limit your warp dice to less than 10 - that’s where things can get a little nuts.

Land Raiders aren’t actually that great for the points so don’t worry about that. Veterans are very cost-efficient though, and could become a problem.

Yeah, those rites won’t work for you. Consider Sacrificial Offering eventually, because it’s fun, but go ahead and use the ones you had in mind until you get bored of them.

Drop pods aren’t standard; you have to pay for the ability to deep strike, either through taking a restrictive rite of war or using up fast attack/heavy support slots with expensive, better drop pods. Or if you’re IF or NL you can teleport your Terminators, just be aware that hampers them with the usual reserve rules.