MtG Puzzle

Fried_Sushi
Fried_Sushi

veekyforums.com/thread/58772518/games
New thread, same problem. Can you find an answer to life's persistent questions?

Remember:
One spell per turn
First spell each turn is countered
You cannot cycle cards
Everything is indestructible
You can't target anything
The enemy gives -4/-4 to all creatures on the first turn, and an additional -2/-2 for each additional turn.
Don't fucking start about how Meddling Mage and Progenitor Mimic can't have the information about the boardstate they have. We've had this debate.

Attached: 1522186958158.png (2.83 MB, 740x2800)

Other urls found in this thread:

veekyforums.com/thread/58772518/games
gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Search/Default.aspx?action=advanced&text= ["can't be countered"]
gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=402079

PurpleCharger
PurpleCharger

Warp World

Illusionz
Illusionz

gets countered

girlDog
girlDog

Can you find an answer to life's persistent questions?
is that a fucking A Prairie Home Companion reference?

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5mileys
5mileys

Not only would it get countered, he would count 20 permanents, shuffle them all in, then spit out the same 20 permanents.

Methshot
Methshot

We can Suspend, play lands (non-basics don't untap), have token dies triggers, Replicate, Forecast, and Conspire (Storm and Gravestorm technically but none help), and obviously play uncounterable stuff.

ZeroReborn
ZeroReborn

IS there a solution or are you just posting some Kobayashi Maru bullshit to see how we react to stress?

New_Cliche
New_Cliche

I draw, do absolutely nothing, pass my turn onto you, then win. You can't draw, so therefore, I win.

Stark_Naked
Stark_Naked

read platinum angel again

SomethingNew
SomethingNew

Progenitor Mimic can't start on the battlefield as a copy of Norn so things are only getting -2/-2 and won't grow further.

5mileys
5mileys

Excellent taste, my boi. May all your women be strong, your men good-looking, and all your children above-average.

It's not my puzzle, and I'm personally of the opinion that the only solution is the "banned" Genesis Hydra. There have been several "almost solutions" involving Alter Ego, but nothing that meets all the conditions listed in .

takes2long
takes2long

what happens if we cast a spell on the same turn a suspended spell goes off

I'm fairly sure the suspended spell still counts

Bidwell
Bidwell

So far there doesn't seem to be one. Using Dragonlord's Prerogative/Skyscribing and Altered Ego seem to possibly lead to an answer.

TalkBomber
TalkBomber

If you cast in response to removing the last suspend counter from your suspended card, the spell you cast in response will be your first spell (and probably countered by Erayo). Then Eidolon kicks in and when the suspend counter trigger resolves, your "second" spell cannot be cast and stays exiled, no longer suspended.

Evil_kitten
Evil_kitten

Oh, we also have cast triggers, but again, so far no help on that front.

happy_sad
happy_sad

We can cast Alter Ego by using Dragonlord's Prerogatives and Guides (assuming the 4 of a kind rule is out) to overtake the initial hump of -X/-X from all the Norns. Once we have two, we can get a bunch of Sky Hussars and get one Norn every turn.

The problem is 1 Norn a turn isn't enough. We need to find a way to grab 2 a turn. That way, we'll win eventually by nuking our opponent's board.

Methshot
Methshot

i feel like new Emrakul has potential

SniperGod
SniperGod

Been discussed a lot already, doesn't do much of anything so far.

TalkBomber
TalkBomber

Eeeeeeexcept it targets a player.

CouchChiller
CouchChiller

Alright. This isn't possible. There's no uncounterable opening play that helps you win this.

Dragonlord's Prerogative just draws you irrelevant cards.

Altered Ego is the most viable solution, but even that falls short in comparison to the Elesh Norns generating every turn.

Everything else is either a trap option (Cavern of Souls, Surrak, Bosenju, other shit) or is completely irrelevant.

There's no fucking solution to this.

viagrandad
viagrandad

If a way could be worked out to untapping a non-basic land, that would be a good ways to finding a solution. The closest has been with Eldrazi Obligator

Emberburn
Emberburn

We can also cast Eternal Scourge (and the like) over and over again.

FastChef
FastChef

Not in the same turn however.

MPmaster
MPmaster

If it helps, the non-basic I'd like to untap most is Arcane Lighthouse.

Emberburn
Emberburn

I also don't see how having it die or get countered a bunch of times helps anyone

Emberfire
Emberfire

I don't think this would archieve much, however.
He can't be attacked after all.

Dreamworx
Dreamworx

I also don't see how having it die or get countered a bunch of times helps anyone
Oh I agree. Just throwing shit out there to see if it inspires somone
I don't think this would archieve much, however.
See above :P

Gigastrength
Gigastrength

If we can get Shahrazad out somehow, that would be pretty impressive. You're guaranteed to win the subgame (... will cast no spells and activate no abilities ... ) and:
"At the end of a subgame, each player puts all cards he or she owns that are in the subgame into his or her library in the main game, then shuffles them. This includes cards in the subgame’s Exile zone."
This means that (if I'm reading this right), returning from the sub-game means neither of you have permanents on the field. So then you'd be free to do as you pleased.

DeathDog
DeathDog

Nope, only those cards involved in the sub-game. Nothing happens to any permanents in the main game.

Ignoramus
Ignoramus

you're not reading it right

Lord_Tryzalot
Lord_Tryzalot

Also, the original scenario didn't explicitly mention ante, but something like Bronze Tablet might work.

happy_sad
happy_sad

Yep never mind me I'm fucking retarded.

ZeroReborn
ZeroReborn

Don't feel too bad, I used to play when Shahrazad was T1 (read Vintage) legal.

PurpleCharger
PurpleCharger

I've been writing down the steps to get somewhere, hopefully someone can continue it with me.

wincon:
boseiju + (3R) banefire to face (cant be countered, cant be prevented)
basically we need to ping him

things to kill (not necessarily in this order, although seems ok):
sigarda
enchantress
privileged position
avacyn
witchbane orb
plat angel

Options
I'm hearing them, I think we should start by dealing with the restrictions he poses on us like sigarda or enchantress, then avacyn and we should be able to destroy orb and ping him after it.
Another not so legal approach we could consider is that he's going through the turns like us but he's not drawing cards, so if we can get him to draw one card we could win via mill.

Harmless_Venom
Harmless_Venom

boseju into crush of tentacles?

Sir_Gallonhead
Sir_Gallonhead

Just get rid of the Platinum Angel and pass turn. GG.

likme
likme

1. How are you untapping the Boseiju? Frozen Aether and Back to Basics exist.
2. How are you activating the Bosejiu? Angel of Jubilation exists.

Fuzzy_Logic
Fuzzy_Logic

good point.
i'll keep thinking
but all you do need to do is manage a board bounce.

5mileys
5mileys

Also Erayo and Eidolon to deal with.

w8t4u
w8t4u

I searched earlier, but anyone else want to take a look at land ETB triggers?

Methshot
Methshot

It's not my puzzle, and I'm personally of the opinion that the only solution is the "banned" Genesis Hydra
because it's a cast trigger, yeah. if you can find a way to have an untapped cavern of souls you can run scourge of fleets into overloaded cyclonic rift

Nude_Bikergirl
Nude_Bikergirl

Something like Savage Summoning would also work, but Eidolon

Lord_Tryzalot
Lord_Tryzalot

I think you just Altered Ego there progenitor mimic until you have at least one less than the amount of elesh norns they have
Prowling Serpopard
Ixidron?

Methnerd
Methnerd

You can't cast more than one Altered Ego a turn and any copies you get off progenitor mimic would die to all their norns

Inmate
Inmate

Can't we Altered Ego the Angel? Does some shenanigans with timestamps allow us to flip that win/lose stat?

Emberfire
Emberfire

No, also your Angel still loses to the -2/-2's of the Norn army.

PurpleCharger
PurpleCharger

any Judge want to explain the Oracle text on Shelldock Isle?

is 'play' the same as 'cast'?

Attached: 1517956815464.png (173 KB, 2688x2688)

Garbage Can Lid
Garbage Can Lid

Shelldock Isle
Play
1. To play a land is to put a land onto the battlefield as a special action. See rule 115,

Special Actions,

and rule 305,

Lands.

2. To play a card is to play that card as a land or cast that card as a spell, whichever is appropriate. Se
e rule
601,

Casting Spells.

3. (Obsolete) Casting a spell used to be known as playing a spell. Cards with that text have received errata
in the Oracle card reference. See Cast.
4. (Obsolete) Activating an activated ability used to be known as playing an
activated ability. Cards with
that text have received errata in the Oracle card reference. See Activate.
5. (Obsolete) The battlefield used to be known as the in
-
play zone. Cards that were printed with text that
contains the phrases

in play,


from play,


into play,

or the like are referring to the battlefield and have
received errata in the Oracle card reference. See Battlefield.

Spamalot
Spamalot

I thought this veekyforums.com/thread/58772518/games got around that.
At least for the first Ego Clone, but you only need one if the second angel flips the table.

Soft_member
Soft_member

Short answer, yes, play = cast.

lostmypassword
lostmypassword

I'm not good at magic puzzles, even more so one designed to be unbeatable.

Leyline of lifeforce and Teferi's Realm might be useful. I'm not sure where you would go from there.

Firespawn
Firespawn

The math was wrong. An extra turn is needed to draw a Dragon, and lands still coming into play tapped still slows it further.

ZeroReborn
ZeroReborn

How are you getting either out? Start with no hand. Phasing has been brought up.

Techpill
Techpill

Prowling Serpopard then...
I'm really not sure where to go from there, but it makes an opening.

StrangeWizard
StrangeWizard

awesome, thanks.

currently searching for 'untap x lands' clauses but there aren't any that get around being counterspelled by erayo.

SniperWish
SniperWish

You can chain Alter Egos targeting the progenitor mimic targeting the elesh norns to make your own elesh norns so you can play creatures. Then you play vexing shusher and slowly get rid of artifacts/enchantments with indirect methods (mass exile wraths).

RumChicken
RumChicken

There are about a million "almost solutions"... if Erayo was considered an activated ability instead of a triggered one, we could ignore it with split second. Then we might be able to do something with Trickbind on Mimic or Stranglehold's effects... but since it isn't, that line of thought's out.

Techpill
Techpill

You can't make more than one Alter Ego a turn and any that come off Progenitor Mimic won't come in with the +1/+1 counters and die immediately.

Ignoramus
Ignoramus

Prowling serpopard immediately dies to two Elesh Norns.

Gigastrength
Gigastrength

so we need to find a way to put an artifact into play without 'casting' it. that artifact can be lots of things, including but not limited to
storage matrix
icy manipulator
candelabra of tawnos
aether vial
pyxis of pandemonium
amulet of vigor

to untap a land
cavern of souls

(to cast) or otherwise put a creature with a mass-bounce ETB trigger on the board, including but not limited to
scourge of fleets

which bounces
platinum angel

and causes the opponent to lose the game on their next draw step

i believe there is a solution to this puzzle in this vein because the puzzle board does not contain a Torpor Orb effect or Obstinate Familiar.

TreeEater
TreeEater

I think it's unwinnable. It's not really a "puzzle" because of this, since it's an impossible set-up, with, as noted, rules violations performed in order to set it up, so it's not particularly illustrative or informative, other than the knowledge that it takes roughly 20 permanents to render a board-state fully unassailable.

takes2long
takes2long

Am I missing something? Why wouldn't you just use Boseiju to resolve Apocalypse and then like, punch him for 20?

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Carnalpleasure
Carnalpleasure

You can't untap boseiju.

TurtleCat
TurtleCat

because even if you managed to untap bosiju through B2B you can't pay life to use activated abilities or cast spells as per Angel of Jubilation.

if you want to untap a land, that land should be Cavern of Souls so you can just win with Scourge of Fleets ETB trigger.

Sir_Gallonhead
Sir_Gallonhead

they just add to this "puzzle" every time a solution is discovered

"we can cycle Esper Sojourners to untap Cavern of Souls and win the game!"
stabilizer added to pic
"we can just cast Genesis Hyd-"
Meddling Mage naming Genesis Hydra added to pic

the only way to win with the current stipulations is something that can untap a land - either a new land card with an ETB, a non-land with a cast trigger, or an uncounterable untap spell. and if such a card were printed, they would just add a second meddling mage to prevent its use.

5mileys
5mileys

Man, we're already off to a great start of nobody being able to read the cards. I'd say people were only reading half the list before coming up with their totally brilliant idea that wasn't posed and shot down 3 times in the last thread, but Angel of Jubilation is literally on the second row and everyone still overlooks it.

Carnalpleasure
Carnalpleasure

I forgot Avacyn was involved, and almost suggested Obliterate/Supreme Verdict, and then went "Wait, there's no way we've have gotten this deep without one of those dropping. What did I miss?"

Firespawn
Firespawn

if you're not gonna participate then fuck off. you are literally 'that guy'

Methnerd
Methnerd

You can't make more than one Alter Ego a turn and any that come off Progenitor Mimic won't come in with the +1/+1 counters and die immediately.
is there anyway to get altered ego out on turn 1 or 2? then there wouldn't be enough norns to kill your copies.

Playboyize
Playboyize

after we solve the puzzle, they submit a new puzzle where the previous solution doesn't work.
... and?
this is how level progression works in most/all puzzle games.

SomethingNew
SomethingNew

If you copy the norn that was the progenitor mimic you make an elesh norn for each altered ego you have down. So if you have 5 altered egos down you'll make another 5 during your upkeep. They'll die unless you reach a critical mass, but each altered ago adds 2 norns at some point to each one the lockfag makes.

kizzmybutt
kizzmybutt

I also thought of Obliterate, and was only saved from looking like a retard by forgetting to click the captcha.

cum2soon
cum2soon

they don't resolve simultaneously. One trigger resolves at a time and you put one norn in which dies immediately for every copy you have.

PurpleCharger
PurpleCharger

Quitter.

TalkBomber
TalkBomber

Let's submit the problem to WotC's R&D. Ask them to print a solution for the next commander precons. I'd love to see what they come up with.

Snarelure
Snarelure

I'd like to see "effects can not prevent you from casting this card."

DeathDog
DeathDog

This puzzle is dumb because we have to ignore basic rules of the game in order for OP to start the game with it on the battlefield. Apart from not paying mana and ignoring normal standing hand size, OP also somehow resolved two ETB effects without having had to actually play the cards. To improve this puzzle and make it not require cheating, let's instead try to figure out how OP could get this all into play in the first place. (without getting FOW'd or something)

PurpleCharger
PurpleCharger

Counter with, "Players can't cast spells and effects can't prevent this effect from preventing players from casting spells."

girlDog
girlDog

My card knowledge is fairly weak. Is there anything uncounterable you could cast by exiling spirit guides that would get you a foothold in the game?

Lunatick
Lunatick

We start with no hand, so the best we can do with spirit guides is draw them once per turn, which gives us no mana advantage over just playing one basic per turn.

Here's a list of everything that can't be countered.

gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Search/Default.aspx?action=advanced&text= ["can't be countered"]

Inmate
Inmate

I mean, I studied it from a lot of angles.

Suspended Hypergenesis looked promising, but you still CHOOSE to cast suspended cards, so Arcane Lab locks it out.

There's no uncounterable Arcane cards to splice more effects onto, and all the cards that grant uncounterable to another card played this turn don't overcome Arcane Lab.

Forecast doesn't have any useful effects. Uncounterable damage effects don't matter because of indestructible, shroud, and hexproof.

If I could get an artifact "put into play", I can drop an Aligned Hedron Network, and boom, they lose. I don't need to untap anything.
But there are no effects that put an artifact into play that don't require searching a library, getting a creature in play for a full turn, or are uncounterable.

There are no "when you cast" effects that are relevant.

As notes, there's a bunch of ideas that need ONE element removed, and they could work, but as is, I can't see any way to pull it off.

PackManBrainlure
PackManBrainlure

Wait, why is Purphoros here? He adds literally nothing to the set-up.

CouchChiller
CouchChiller

you can chain dragonlord's perogatives on your turn 2 and opp's turn 2 to end up with a 0/3 elesh norn copy on your 4th turn with proper deck ordering. it dies in two turns though. you won't be able to outpace the progenitor mimic because he started with two norns and has 4 out by the time you have one.

ZeroReborn
ZeroReborn

he clocks you for 2 a turn with etb triggers from progenitor mimic making more elesh norns which is why the OP specified a finite life total and says 'tick tock'

Spazyfool
Spazyfool

Oh. Well, that's unnecessary. He notes that your deck has to big enough to shuffle, and you can lose by inability to draw while he can't, so there was ALREADY a clock.

Nude_Bikergirl
Nude_Bikergirl

I Boseiju a cyclonic rift and you die. Fuck that was easy.

Lord_Tryzalot
Lord_Tryzalot

This puzzle became bunk when you used Meddling Mage to start taking away specific cards. No matter what solution we may devise, you can always just add another Meddling Mage (through a second Progenitor Mimic or something if we have to go above 4) until you've named all ~18,000 magic cards. In fact, you should probably do that now just to be thorough. This ceased to be a, "how can you beat this board state" puzzle and has become a, "how can I make a board state that is absolutely 100% unassailable" puzzle at this point, and if you're thinking "well it would be lame and unsporting to do that" then I say who gives a fuck because you literally had to cheat to set up this board state anyway.

happy_sad
happy_sad

Angel of Jubilation says you can't pay life. Boseiju's life payment is part of its cost to activate. If you can't pay the cost you can't activate the ability

haveahappyday
haveahappyday

This is one of those autistic "intelligent" puzzles that some retard put together end to beginning.

TreeEater
TreeEater

But my opponent obviously cheated so I am as well. I boseiju a cyclonic rift and you die.

Snarelure
Snarelure

What this tells me is that Magic needs an uncounterable mass bounce spell.

TurtleCat
TurtleCat

Can we cycle? There is the new card that untaps a permanent when xycled. Can abuse cavern and boseiju then

BinaryMan
BinaryMan

Oh you're so fucking clever. Why even use the boseiju? Just play the cyclonic rift without paying for it.

In fact, why cyclonc rift? He only has one life.

Attached: Image.jpg (29 KB, 223x310)

FastChef
FastChef

4th row, far left. Nope.

AwesomeTucker
AwesomeTucker

Guys, I think I found a clue. Why does he have 1 life if he has a platinum angel in play? That has to lead somewhere

Dreamworx
Dreamworx

Your thread is shit and so are you.

Booteefool
Booteefool

Oh you're so fucking clever.
Is also a fine retort to the initial puzzle.

It has no solution.

It's not a 'puzzle' at all, but a demonstration of potential. "Look, you can set up a board-state that makes it impossible for the opponent to win. (assuming you ignore several fundamental rules of the game, and give yourself unfair advantages.) "

At least phrasing the question like "can you finish the game before Purphoros kills you" would allow for "answers" exterior to the game.
"Yes, I concede."

Harmless_Venom
Harmless_Venom

It's not my thread, yes it is, no I'm not

Here have a joke card

Attached: 1515013330765.gif (520 KB, 265x370)

Gigastrength
Gigastrength

OP, you should include Maralen of the Mornsong and Leonin Arbiter as well.

And equip each creature with Assault Suit, just in case Tabernacle is re-errated.

And throw in a Winter Orb for good measure.

StonedTime
StonedTime

Blazing Archon is a red herring, I think. There are no playable creatures that can be cast before the number of Norns grows too large and they die immediately after entering the battlefield.

cum2soon
cum2soon

I have discovered a truly remarkable solution to this puzzle which this character limit is too small to contain.

TurtleCat
TurtleCat

Could you get enough card draw with Skyscribing and Simian Spirit Guides to overcome the Nornspawn with Altered Ego?
Assuming a land drop every turn, and every 3 mana get another scribing (and saying fuck you to the "You must shuffle it on your own)

LuckyDusty
LuckyDusty

No, because you can only ever cast one Altered Ego per turn thanks to Eidolon of Rhetoric. This only matches the rate of growth of their Nornspawn, meaning you'll never overcome it. If copy effects duplicated +1/+1 counters, we could do it by copying Progenitor Mimic, but sadly that's not the case.

You can also draw cards with both versions of Kozilek, FYI.

StonedTime
StonedTime

Why has noone suggested casting Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger, since it exiles stuff when cast (not when resolved)? Also, the uncounterable dudes? There are many...

Fuzzy_Logic
Fuzzy_Logic

You can split it into multiple posts. But I think you don't actually a solution. You're just trying to make yourself sound smart.

Crazy_Nice
Crazy_Nice

Yeah man, I just solved the puzzle. If I cast Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger, the next three will resolve. Also, that's 8 things I get to exile for free. You ain't living that, I'll just abuse bullshittium and say I pulled All is Dust as well and played that. You just lost.

Spamalot
Spamalot

1. Ulamog gets countered. This means the exiles don't work.
2. The exiles wouldn't work anyways because the board does not allow you to target anything.
3. He will immediately die to stacking Norns (except as covered in the thread, stacking Norns is technically not valid but we'll let that slide)
4. Most of the uncounterable guys also die to stacking Norns.

haveahappyday
haveahappyday

WRONG. Here is your link to Ulamog the Ceaseless Hunger's rulings, and why you have failed. You need another Meddling Mage, naming Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger. His exile effects are on cast, not when he resolves. You still get hit even when he gets countered.
gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=402079

DeathDog
DeathDog

So I got a solution that doesn't require playing a single card. But it requires a bit of extrapolation of the rules

Per all the rules of magic, and the fact that the prompt is actually cheating, we can conclude that this does not follow the accepted rules of magic except to make the cards actually function.

So here is the solution.
Take off your belt.
Tell OP that you're going to start beating him with it if he doesn't concede.
Start beating him with the belt before giving him time to think.
OP assuredly will concede the game at some point during the beating.

ZeroReborn
ZeroReborn

Yes, but the ability still targets, which means that Privileged Position prevents it from doing anything.

Nojokur
Nojokur

Okay. So I was wrong about Ulamog.

However. You still have the problem of privileged position.

Sir_Gallonhead
Sir_Gallonhead

I just noticed the PrivPos/GreAur redundancy. Not bad, but eh. You came up with all this and still didn't know that Ulamog's exile ability counters separately from the card himself. I will call that a huge win, mister calculated.
t. been gone from magic for years, only knew this because I been fiending over some 'drazi.

SomethingNew
SomethingNew

Supreme Verdict is a possible if can remove indestructible.

cum2soon
cum2soon

Amulet of Vigor my dudes

girlDog
girlDog

My solution didn't work but I was right about rules minutia

But hey, you haven't played magic in years. That's nice and all. I haven't played magic since 2000.

Sir_Gallonhead
Sir_Gallonhead

If there's any way of getting aura thief onto the battlefield you have it because you'll get all the enchants on its death.

And there is cavern of souls. Which just means we need something to get it untapped, but I don't think there's anything with untap a land on cast or any other similar effect.

Lord_Tryzalot
Lord_Tryzalot

I feel like this lockout started simpler, then cards were added to deal with specific answers until it answered everything brought up.

Cycling can get your lands untapped, which in turn opens up mana to to cast uncounterable spells. It's the only reason I can see Stabilizer's odd inclusion.

Genesis Hydra puts things into play without casting them, or searching the deck. Thus the Meddling Mage.

Everything else is just gravy to stop the usual suspects.

VisualMaster
VisualMaster

Stabiliser also stops mass Decree of Pain cyclings. You can eventually get enough mana together with Reliquary Tower, Skyscribing, Kozileks, and hundreds of Spirit Guides to outpace the Norn clones and kill everything.

The simplest kill with Genesis Hydra is to cast it for X=8, revealing Kederekt Leviathan to wipe their board. Then they lose on their draw step.

King_Martha
King_Martha

Eldrazi Obligator and some Forecast cards can untap a creature without being countered, but there's no way to turn Cavern of Souls into a creature. Even if there was, it would almost certainly die immediately to the Norn clones.

WebTool
WebTool

Gets countered, and there's no other way to get it out.

Firespawn
Firespawn

I think we've thoroughly established that we can beat this once we can get just one arbitrary card out. Its getting sonething out thats the hard part.

CouchChiller
CouchChiller

play a hundred lands
R&D Secret Lair
CAST Geneis Hydra (Meddling Mage just says you can play it) into False Prophet

Playboyize
Playboyize

'Cast' is a subset of 'play' in contemporary Magic rules. See Act on Impulse etc, as well as Conjurer's Ban.