New thread, same problem. Can you find an answer to life's persistent questions?
Remember: >One spell per turn >First spell each turn is countered >You cannot cycle cards >Everything is indestructible >You can't target anything >The enemy gives -4/-4 to all creatures on the first turn, and an additional -2/-2 for each additional turn. >Don't fucking start about how Meddling Mage and Progenitor Mimic can't have the information about the boardstate they have. We've had this debate.
Not only would it get countered, he would count 20 permanents, shuffle them all in, then spit out the same 20 permanents.
We can Suspend, play lands (non-basics don't untap), have token dies triggers, Replicate, Forecast, and Conspire (Storm and Gravestorm technically but none help), and obviously play uncounterable stuff.
IS there a solution or are you just posting some Kobayashi Maru bullshit to see how we react to stress?
I draw, do absolutely nothing, pass my turn onto you, then win. You can't draw, so therefore, I win.
read platinum angel again
Progenitor Mimic can't start on the battlefield as a copy of Norn so things are only getting -2/-2 and won't grow further.
Excellent taste, my boi. May all your women be strong, your men good-looking, and all your children above-average.
It's not my puzzle, and I'm personally of the opinion that the only solution is the "banned" Genesis Hydra. There have been several "almost solutions" involving Alter Ego, but nothing that meets all the conditions listed in .
what happens if we cast a spell on the same turn a suspended spell goes off
I'm fairly sure the suspended spell still counts
So far there doesn't seem to be one. Using Dragonlord's Prerogative/Skyscribing and Altered Ego seem to possibly lead to an answer.
If you cast in response to removing the last suspend counter from your suspended card, the spell you cast in response will be your first spell (and probably countered by Erayo). Then Eidolon kicks in and when the suspend counter trigger resolves, your "second" spell cannot be cast and stays exiled, no longer suspended.
Oh, we also have cast triggers, but again, so far no help on that front.
We can cast Alter Ego by using Dragonlord's Prerogatives and Guides (assuming the 4 of a kind rule is out) to overtake the initial hump of -X/-X from all the Norns. Once we have two, we can get a bunch of Sky Hussars and get one Norn every turn.
The problem is 1 Norn a turn isn't enough. We need to find a way to grab 2 a turn. That way, we'll win eventually by nuking our opponent's board.
i feel like new Emrakul has potential
Been discussed a lot already, doesn't do much of anything so far.
Eeeeeeexcept it targets a player.
Alright. This isn't possible. There's no uncounterable opening play that helps you win this.
Dragonlord's Prerogative just draws you irrelevant cards.
Altered Ego is the most viable solution, but even that falls short in comparison to the Elesh Norns generating every turn.
Everything else is either a trap option (Cavern of Souls, Surrak, Bosenju, other shit) or is completely irrelevant.
There's no fucking solution to this.
If a way could be worked out to untapping a non-basic land, that would be a good ways to finding a solution. The closest has been with Eldrazi Obligator
We can also cast Eternal Scourge (and the like) over and over again.
Not in the same turn however.
If it helps, the non-basic I'd like to untap most is Arcane Lighthouse.
I also don't see how having it die or get countered a bunch of times helps anyone
I don't think this would archieve much, however. He can't be attacked after all.
>I also don't see how having it die or get countered a bunch of times helps anyone Oh I agree. Just throwing shit out there to see if it inspires somone >I don't think this would archieve much, however. See above :P
If we can get Shahrazad out somehow, that would be pretty impressive. You're guaranteed to win the subgame (... will cast no spells and activate no abilities ... ) and: "At the end of a subgame, each player puts all cards he or she owns that are in the subgame into his or her library in the main game, then shuffles them. This includes cards in the subgame’s Exile zone." This means that (if I'm reading this right), returning from the sub-game means neither of you have permanents on the field. So then you'd be free to do as you pleased.
Nope, only those cards involved in the sub-game. Nothing happens to any permanents in the main game.
you're not reading it right
Also, the original scenario didn't explicitly mention ante, but something like Bronze Tablet might work.
Yep never mind me I'm fucking retarded.
Don't feel too bad, I used to play when Shahrazad was T1 (read Vintage) legal.
I've been writing down the steps to get somewhere, hopefully someone can continue it with me.
wincon: boseiju + (3R) banefire to face (cant be countered, cant be prevented) basically we need to ping him
things to kill (not necessarily in this order, although seems ok): sigarda enchantress privileged position avacyn witchbane orb plat angel
Options I'm hearing them, I think we should start by dealing with the restrictions he poses on us like sigarda or enchantress, then avacyn and we should be able to destroy orb and ping him after it. Another not so legal approach we could consider is that he's going through the turns like us but he's not drawing cards, so if we can get him to draw one card we could win via mill.
boseju into crush of tentacles?
Just get rid of the Platinum Angel and pass turn. GG.
1. How are you untapping the Boseiju? Frozen Aether and Back to Basics exist. 2. How are you activating the Bosejiu? Angel of Jubilation exists.
good point. i'll keep thinking but all you do need to do is manage a board bounce.
Also Erayo and Eidolon to deal with.
I searched earlier, but anyone else want to take a look at land ETB triggers?
>It's not my puzzle, and I'm personally of the opinion that the only solution is the "banned" Genesis Hydra because it's a cast trigger, yeah. if you can find a way to have an untapped cavern of souls you can run scourge of fleets into overloaded cyclonic rift
Something like Savage Summoning would also work, but Eidolon
I think you just Altered Ego there progenitor mimic until you have at least one less than the amount of elesh norns they have Prowling Serpopard Ixidron?
You can't cast more than one Altered Ego a turn and any copies you get off progenitor mimic would die to all their norns
Can't we Altered Ego the Angel? Does some shenanigans with timestamps allow us to flip that win/lose stat?
No, also your Angel still loses to the -2/-2's of the Norn army.
any Judge want to explain the Oracle text on Shelldock Isle?
>Shelldock Isle Play 1. To play a land is to put a land onto the battlefield as a special action. See rule 115, “ Special Actions, ” and rule 305, “ Lands. ” 2. To play a card is to play that card as a land or cast that card as a spell, whichever is appropriate. Se e rule 601, “ Casting Spells. ” 3. (Obsolete) Casting a spell used to be known as playing a spell. Cards with that text have received errata in the Oracle card reference. See Cast. 4. (Obsolete) Activating an activated ability used to be known as playing an activated ability. Cards with that text have received errata in the Oracle card reference. See Activate. 5. (Obsolete) The battlefield used to be known as the in - play zone. Cards that were printed with text that contains the phrases “ in play, ” “ from play, ” “ into play, ” or the like are referring to the battlefield and have received errata in the Oracle card reference. See Battlefield.
I thought this got around that. At least for the first Ego Clone, but you only need one if the second angel flips the table.
Short answer, yes, play = cast.
I'm not good at magic puzzles, even more so one designed to be unbeatable.
Leyline of lifeforce and Teferi's Realm might be useful. I'm not sure where you would go from there.
The math was wrong. An extra turn is needed to draw a Dragon, and lands still coming into play tapped still slows it further.
How are you getting either out? Start with no hand. Phasing has been brought up.
Prowling Serpopard then... I'm really not sure where to go from there, but it makes an opening.
currently searching for 'untap x lands' clauses but there aren't any that get around being counterspelled by erayo.
You can chain Alter Egos targeting the progenitor mimic targeting the elesh norns to make your own elesh norns so you can play creatures. Then you play vexing shusher and slowly get rid of artifacts/enchantments with indirect methods (mass exile wraths).
There are about a million "almost solutions"... if Erayo was considered an activated ability instead of a triggered one, we could ignore it with split second. Then we might be able to do something with Trickbind on Mimic or Stranglehold's effects... but since it isn't, that line of thought's out.
You can't make more than one Alter Ego a turn and any that come off Progenitor Mimic won't come in with the +1/+1 counters and die immediately.
Prowling serpopard immediately dies to two Elesh Norns.
so we need to find a way to put an artifact into play without 'casting' it. that artifact can be lots of things, including but not limited to >storage matrix >icy manipulator >candelabra of tawnos >aether vial >pyxis of pandemonium >amulet of vigor
to untap a land >cavern of souls
(to cast) or otherwise put a creature with a mass-bounce ETB trigger on the board, including but not limited to >scourge of fleets
which bounces >platinum angel
and causes the opponent to lose the game on their next draw step
i believe there is a solution to this puzzle in this vein because the puzzle board does not contain a Torpor Orb effect or Obstinate Familiar.
I think it's unwinnable. It's not really a "puzzle" because of this, since it's an impossible set-up, with, as noted, rules violations performed in order to set it up, so it's not particularly illustrative or informative, other than the knowledge that it takes roughly 20 permanents to render a board-state fully unassailable.
Am I missing something? Why wouldn't you just use Boseiju to resolve Apocalypse and then like, punch him for 20?
because even if you managed to untap bosiju through B2B you can't pay life to use activated abilities or cast spells as per Angel of Jubilation.
if you want to untap a land, that land should be Cavern of Souls so you can just win with Scourge of Fleets ETB trigger.
they just add to this "puzzle" every time a solution is discovered
>"we can cycle Esper Sojourners to untap Cavern of Souls and win the game!" >stabilizer added to pic >"we can just cast Genesis Hyd-" >Meddling Mage naming Genesis Hydra added to pic
the only way to win with the current stipulations is something that can untap a land - either a new land card with an ETB, a non-land with a cast trigger, or an uncounterable untap spell. and if such a card were printed, they would just add a second meddling mage to prevent its use.
Man, we're already off to a great start of nobody being able to read the cards. I'd say people were only reading half the list before coming up with their totally brilliant idea that wasn't posed and shot down 3 times in the last thread, but Angel of Jubilation is literally on the second row and everyone still overlooks it.
I forgot Avacyn was involved, and almost suggested Obliterate/Supreme Verdict, and then went "Wait, there's no way we've have gotten this deep without one of those dropping. What did I miss?"
if you're not gonna participate then fuck off. you are literally 'that guy'
>You can't make more than one Alter Ego a turn and any that come off Progenitor Mimic won't come in with the +1/+1 counters and die immediately. is there anyway to get altered ego out on turn 1 or 2? then there wouldn't be enough norns to kill your copies.
>after we solve the puzzle, they submit a new puzzle where the previous solution doesn't work. ... and? this is how level progression works in most/all puzzle games.
If you copy the norn that was the progenitor mimic you make an elesh norn for each altered ego you have down. So if you have 5 altered egos down you'll make another 5 during your upkeep. They'll die unless you reach a critical mass, but each altered ago adds 2 norns at some point to each one the lockfag makes.
I also thought of Obliterate, and was only saved from looking like a retard by forgetting to click the captcha.
they don't resolve simultaneously. One trigger resolves at a time and you put one norn in which dies immediately for every copy you have.
Let's submit the problem to WotC's R&D. Ask them to print a solution for the next commander precons. I'd love to see what they come up with.
I'd like to see "effects can not prevent you from casting this card."
This puzzle is dumb because we have to ignore basic rules of the game in order for OP to start the game with it on the battlefield. Apart from not paying mana and ignoring normal standing hand size, OP also somehow resolved two ETB effects without having had to actually play the cards. To improve this puzzle and make it not require cheating, let's instead try to figure out how OP could get this all into play in the first place. (without getting FOW'd or something)
Counter with, "Players can't cast spells and effects can't prevent this effect from preventing players from casting spells."
My card knowledge is fairly weak. Is there anything uncounterable you could cast by exiling spirit guides that would get you a foothold in the game?
We start with no hand, so the best we can do with spirit guides is draw them once per turn, which gives us no mana advantage over just playing one basic per turn.
Here's a list of everything that can't be countered.
Suspended Hypergenesis looked promising, but you still CHOOSE to cast suspended cards, so Arcane Lab locks it out.
There's no uncounterable Arcane cards to splice more effects onto, and all the cards that grant uncounterable to another card played this turn don't overcome Arcane Lab.
Forecast doesn't have any useful effects. Uncounterable damage effects don't matter because of indestructible, shroud, and hexproof.
If I could get an artifact "put into play", I can drop an Aligned Hedron Network, and boom, they lose. I don't need to untap anything. But there are no effects that put an artifact into play that don't require searching a library, getting a creature in play for a full turn, or are uncounterable.
There are no "when you cast" effects that are relevant.
As notes, there's a bunch of ideas that need ONE element removed, and they could work, but as is, I can't see any way to pull it off.
Wait, why is Purphoros here? He adds literally nothing to the set-up.
you can chain dragonlord's perogatives on your turn 2 and opp's turn 2 to end up with a 0/3 elesh norn copy on your 4th turn with proper deck ordering. it dies in two turns though. you won't be able to outpace the progenitor mimic because he started with two norns and has 4 out by the time you have one.
he clocks you for 2 a turn with etb triggers from progenitor mimic making more elesh norns which is why the OP specified a finite life total and says 'tick tock'
Oh. Well, that's unnecessary. He notes that your deck has to big enough to shuffle, and you can lose by inability to draw while he can't, so there was ALREADY a clock.
I Boseiju a cyclonic rift and you die. Fuck that was easy.
This puzzle became bunk when you used Meddling Mage to start taking away specific cards. No matter what solution we may devise, you can always just add another Meddling Mage (through a second Progenitor Mimic or something if we have to go above 4) until you've named all ~18,000 magic cards. In fact, you should probably do that now just to be thorough. This ceased to be a, "how can you beat this board state" puzzle and has become a, "how can I make a board state that is absolutely 100% unassailable" puzzle at this point, and if you're thinking "well it would be lame and unsporting to do that" then I say who gives a fuck because you literally had to cheat to set up this board state anyway.
Angel of Jubilation says you can't pay life. Boseiju's life payment is part of its cost to activate. If you can't pay the cost you can't activate the ability
This is one of those autistic "intelligent" puzzles that some retard put together end to beginning.
But my opponent obviously cheated so I am as well. I boseiju a cyclonic rift and you die.
What this tells me is that Magic needs an uncounterable mass bounce spell.
Can we cycle? There is the new card that untaps a permanent when xycled. Can abuse cavern and boseiju then
Oh you're so fucking clever. Why even use the boseiju? Just play the cyclonic rift without paying for it.
Guys, I think I found a clue. Why does he have 1 life if he has a platinum angel in play? That has to lead somewhere
Your thread is shit and so are you.
>Oh you're so fucking clever. Is also a fine retort to the initial puzzle.
It has no solution.
It's not a 'puzzle' at all, but a demonstration of potential. "Look, you can set up a board-state that makes it impossible for the opponent to win. (assuming you ignore several fundamental rules of the game, and give yourself unfair advantages.) "
At least phrasing the question like "can you finish the game before Purphoros kills you" would allow for "answers" exterior to the game. "Yes, I concede."