How do none of you fucking retards still not know how taxation works after all this time? You have time to shill your shitcoins 24/7 but not time to research tax law? Getting pretty fucking tired of seeing these tax threads every single day, and nobody there understands anything.
I'm going to clear it up for you once more, and this is information compiled based on months of research and contacting tax lawyers all over Europe and Asia, and I'm giving it out there totally for free. So you better read every single word. Also read this thread later
First of all let's start by defining the difference between the investor and the trader, since none of you seem to grasp this simple concept. To make it even easier for you, I will give you real life scenario examples:
>The Investor or the Holder Bob buys 10 BTC on 10.1 He then trades 5 of these BTC for Doge on the 15.4. He also buys 50 ETH with Fiat on the same date. Then, 3 or 6 months later, maybe even a year later Bob sells all of his coins netting a huge profit. He did not actively manage his investments, he probably also has a normal wagecuck job, and it was clearly not his full time job, nor was it his intention to speculate. This is now a clear situation where he got a capital gain and thus is liable to pay a capital gains tax on this profit, if his country of residence taxes capital gains.
General Rule - The holder will always pay the (if existing) capital gains tax on crypto UNLESS it is specifically stated by the tax authority that crypto falls under some kind of exemption or other tax rate.
David Campbell
>The Trader (most of you reading this) This is the chad who is not satisfied with slow and steady gains, fuck that! We are here to become multimillionaires in 3 months. 1000x or nothing. The trader is highly likely a NEET, meaning he is no wagecuck because he focuses 100% of his time on making gains. Or if he has a job, at least he makes literally several months wage in 1 day when trading. Most of his income comes from crypto. He buys BTC and ETH, which he then trades for shitcoins back and forth chasing the pumps buying high and selling low. This happens, if not every day, at least once or several times a week. He has accounts on binance, bittrex, gdax, kucoin, kraken etc etc. Maybe he is also a highly sofisticated trader, hedging risk by going into USDT or Shorting with leverage when the market seems overextended. It is clear this guy spends considerable energy managing his active investments. You could almost say he is "working" for his money (let's be real here - all those sleepless nights, alarms going off in the middle of the night, researching coins, shilling on biz etc. is fucking hard stressful work) The trader makes an absolute killing, much better gains than the faggot holder (or at least this is what he tells himself), but what about taxes?
General Rule - The trader will in most cases pay income tax, or a speculation tax higher than the normal CGT on this gain. Some countries call it the "good housefather rule" others just tax it as plain income. You should assume that it will be taxed as income (at least if your gain is 6 figures +) UNLESS the tax authority specifically states that all crypto, no matter how or why it is bought or traded, WILL be taxed as a capital gain!
Benjamin Foster
You see, it doesn't matter WHAT it is you trade. It can be forex, stocks, derivatives, crypto, even fucking digital cats - as long as you actively manage your investments and you exert a considerable effort doing so, and/or you derive most of your yearly income from this activity - most countries consider this your "job" and you will pay income tax on it. You might even have to pay social security contributions etc.
To give an example of 2 countries with different treatment considering crypto:
>Denmark Crypto is totally tax free if you bought it "because you were interested in the technology, or because you wanted to use it as payment" However, if you use it for speculation in order to make a profit, it is taxed.
>Belarus It doesn't matter if you are a holder or if you make trillions of trades per minute - It is still tax free in every scenario.
If you are really interested in international taxation - read this thread elitetrader.com/et/threads/best-country-for-trading-tax-efficiency.189932/page-34 it is the single best source of information about this that I have found online. Pay special attention to the poster "dw31583" This guy is a professional trader, making 8 figures a year and he really knows what he is talking about. You can ignore the rest of the idiots in that thread
Thomas Reed
Now let's move on to some of the more common "tax free countries" mentioned on biz.
>Netherlands Yes if you are an investor you can actually pay only about 2% tax on your entire crypto portfolio every year, by putting the value in box 3. However, there is absolutely no reason to believe that this would be the case for a trader. In fact, this dutch tax advisory firm actually discusses this grantthornton.nl/en/insights-en/articles/bitcoin-hits-10000-dollar-what-about-cryptocurrency-and-taxes/ and I quote >For personal income taxes cryptocurrency are considered assets and are to be declared in box 3 of the personal income tax as such, which is the box for income from savings and investments. This means you have to take its value on January 1st of the year and declare this value. BUT >An interesting question would be how cryptocurrencies would be taxed in the personal income tax in case someone actively trades in cryptocurrencies. The tax-authorities could say that this goes beyond passive management of funds, meaning your profits would be taxed in box 1 instead of box 3. The facts and circumstances of a situation would be of great importance in such cases. AND >Considering cryptocurrencies are still relatively new, its fiscal treatment is far from fully established. Currently, some clarification has been given, but it seems almost certain more legislation and jurisprudence will follow. As you can see, it is far from a sure thing
>Italy Some Italians claim you can cash out about 50k €tax free every week. Well, AFAIK there is NO official source on this, just some guys opinion. There had been some guidance regarding crypto on the tax authorities website earlier, but it has since been removed. Meaning they are probably about to change it. Italy is not exactly known for its tax friendliness.
Jordan Lopez
>Slovenia I have not talked to a Slovenian tax advisor, and all the information online is in Slovenian. From reading Slovenian forums you get differing opinions. Some say it can be tax free, and some say it depends on the circumstances. One person also said, if you can't prove the source of the funds to the tax authoritys satisfaction, you will be taxed at 70%. Some Slovenes on biz say what I also think, that it will be taxed as income if you are trading. Anyway, looking at the personal tax rates for Slovenia (25% CGT and top rate 50% on Income) it does not look promising and will likely change soon. www2.deloitte.com/content/dam/Deloitte/global/Documents/Tax/dttl-tax-sloveniahighlights-2017.pdf
TO ALL YOU DUTCH, ITALIANS & SLOVENES who will come here and say >hurr durr you don't know shit it is tax free my friend cashed out 2k and no one has asked him for tax yet Either show definitive legally binding proof (e.g. tax authority and NOT coindesk, bitcoin.com, your friend, reddit etc) that crypto (BOTH TRADING AND HOLDING) is tax free or GTFO if you don't have any proof don't comment until you have. If you write to your tax authority and get a binding answer about 2018 please post it on biz and I will personally send you $500 worth of monero
TO BE PERFECTLY CLEAR - The only countries that you can be certain are tax free are those that have 0 taxes on anything OR have said all crypto is tax free (also trading) These are currently - UAE - Monaco - Bahamas - Bermuda - Saudi-Arabia - Qatar - Cayman Islands - St Kitts & Nevis - Many more Caribbean Islands - Belarus (crypto) - Possibly Ukraine soon (crypto)
Asher Foster
Even if some countries have been slow to implement any regulation regarding crypto tax, or have put up something about being tax free in like 2013, you can be absolutely sure that this will change tax year 2018. More millionaires and billionaires have been made in 2017 than almost any year before. If you believe the governments are going to just let crypto be because they don't care or because they are good guys, then you are mistaken. Most western governments are bankrupt and they are just salivating at the thought of stealing all your hard earned money because "muh roads, healthcare and refugees". Not to mention, crypto is really not that hard to track at all. They have access to your bank accounts and transactions, and to most fiat gateways for crypto at the moment. And everything on the blockchain is permanent.
Obviously fuck them and you should move - go where you are treated the best.
Try your absolute best to get residency in any of the tax-free countries mentioned above.
If you cannot do this, the next best alternative is a country with LOW TAXES ON EVERYTHING Why? Well let me give you this analogy, two alternatives
1. You can flip a coin - if heads you get 1 million, if tails you get 500k or 2. No coin flip - you receive 900k guaranteed
What will you choose? Most rational persons would go with the guaranteed 900k
What I mean is - choosing any of those "maybe possibly gray area tax free if the perfect conditions are there" countries is like a coin flip. Maybe you will get it tax free, maybe you will lose half to income taxes. Choosing a low tax country means you get to keep most of your money guaranteed! Which brings me to my recommendation...
Blake Ross
I believe the best place for the crypto trader who does not want to invest 150k+ in residency, and trades in his own name, is Bulgaria
- Very easy to get tax residence there for almost no cost - The girls are hot, not fat and have traditional values. Both pics in this thread are Bulgarian girls - You can fuck hookers for under $30/hour (1 BGN = 0.6 USD). Most of them will do anal, facials, threesomes etc. Look for yourself. en.topescort.bg/?order_by=price-asc
- Good food - Like 98% white. No niggers, arabs, rapefugees etc.
Julian Cox
IF you use a company to trade, another interesting country could be Estonia >doesn't levy corporate income tax instead you have to pay a flat 20% tax when you distribute the profits from your company. So you can legally earn tax-free profits with your local company and you can accumulate tax-free profits and you can retain your profits in your company as long as you want. You have to pay the 20% tax only on the money you pay to yourself as dividends for instance.
TL;DR - Just fucking read it asshole, took me over an hour to write
Chek'd >Deciding not to flip the coin You'll never make it user
Brayden Clark
Depeding on country, how should they know that you changed FIAT->ETH->SHITCOINS and when you use the same way again SHITCOINS->ETH->FIAT
For tax I could simply claim it was just two transactions. Most of the countries don't have the resources to follow all transactions and I wouldn't tell them the the wallet.
Isaac Ramirez
If they audit you for money laundering you would obviously have to prove how you bought only 1 btc but cashed out 15btc
Owen Torres
or eth...
Jackson Miller
You motherfuckers are more interested in bitching than researching IoM and BVI.
If you have to ask you're a nigger and i won't respond. Grow the fuck up. You wanna be a grown up then start learning how the grown ups do it.
Gabriel Jackson
What about them?
Aiden Perez
Thx, this makes actually sense. How in the world can you daytrade on shitcoinsBTC without keeping a digital ledger with current worth in fiat? Just putting together an excel seems cumbersome.
Julian Reed
nice work OP, i will be cleaning this up and putting it on my blog, i would tip you but i am a poorfag, in return i will leave your donate address at the end and will credit it to Rp9Myvc4, many thanks.
Tyler Reed
Especially when doing this cross exchanges because not every has every shitcoin on it.
Henry Perez
I think all exchanges will give you your full trading history so you can download it.
Owen Diaz
That's cool user, hope you make it big in crypto!
Brandon Richardson
you write a crypto blog?
Colton Lee
ctrl+f Belgium, no clear laws, nobody seems to know.. guess i'll find out when i cash out
Jose Perez
A guy from belgium told me there would be a speculation tax, but not sure. Please write on biz if you find out
Colton Carter
What’s the best option for someone who held for more than a year before the new tax bill in the US, but can’t leave because they are part of the gov?
Colton Jackson
For US anons, I think the only options are: - Become bona fide resident in Puerto Rico - Renounce US citizenship and move
maybe - set up complicated offshore structure and trade through that? e.g. trust + foundation + IBC that is something that you have to check with a lawyer
Ayden Ross
Yea, a student traded with bots and it got taken to court and he had to pay 33% tax cause it's speculation and profit driven and normal stock is not or some bullshit. So i'm not sure if holding/limited trades is untaxed like germany (1y hold). Trading could also be taxed as income tax if they deem it to be more then a 'hobby' it's all extremely vague.
Dylan Long
That's really interesting, any news articles on that? thanks for the info
Carson Smith
Fugg. I *really* can’t renounce citizenship, is there anything that’s still legal that’s still based domestically? Could cost a little more, but as long as I don’t look like a spy to the government then it should be good.
It's in dutch though, the link is the official tax article about the law. It also only mentions bitcoin so not sure if it applies to other cryptos
Oliver Walker
In Germany its one year hold. But if you change to ETH->shitcoins and back, and making money during that 1yr period, its like normal income. I know daytraders who moves their accounts to China because of this and do some grey areay things to claim this is income by rent. Otherwise it would be like 42% taxes there.
Nolan Watson
Uh sorry I don't know of anything that would be both legal and based in the US. Maybe someone else who reads this thread knows
Jack Davis
yeah know about the tax free hold rule could you explain the process of moving accounts to China if you know anything about it?
Luke Carter
google translate is readable and accurate
Lincoln Turner
The only thing I could think of is getting an trade account, swap money to foreign fiat. Then do Renmimbi->Crypto and continue do so. But usually that entails that the money can't be repatriated. Need to fly over, get cash, turn it into a expensive watch, come back sell the watch on ebay, claim was a present from dead grandpa. Its hard to escape these things.
David Gonzalez
thanks I'll read it now
Alexander Taylor
Yeah using CNY could work as you said, but yeah would be a massive pain in the ass cashing out.
Kevin Parker
Thanks anyway user, I’ll try and check in about the other one.
William Robinson
yeah, i don't trade don't have the money for that, but so many people were asking how to start on here, i wrote a newbie blog on getting started and a list of terminology explained.
Joseph Foster
They closed all their local EU accounts and went with one of those in Shanghai and Hongkong. Back then you could do that just like this, now its more complicated (AFAIK) You find some company you can co-invest in, then you are allowed to trade there. And as I understand they buy local houses/flats there and then take in the rent. Without a financial deal between EU/CN its 27% on this. Instead of 42%. But that whole setup only makes only sense if you trade in the millions like they do.
Lucas Barnes
My friend lived for 6month in Hongkong, every 1. of month some westerners stood up to the ATMs and got like serious money. Had even security accompany them to the department sky scraper with all that cash. If you live in high tax countries, maybe doing that saves a mil or two/10yrs. then its worth it.
Elijah Sanchez
that's too bad, hope at least some guys reading your blog will give you donations. You could try doing some paid personalized advice or patreon or something like that?
I see, well that would be a nice problem to have anyway hah
Ryder Foster
Can they then deposit the cash or do they buy something with it?
"For tax purposes, the classification as an object of speculation means that capital gains are completely tax-exempt after a holding period of at least one year." tl;dr: HODL for 1 year and you don't pay taxes on crypto in Germany Now the $500 in XMR please
Juan Ward
I would guess they had a deal there in HK to pay their expenses in cash, too. There are some quite tricky ways to free transfer money from one country. Like buying a house for a company, then you lease it, then your foreign company can buy it for you (like in Amsterdam or Luxenbourg). And if you close up the circle, you sit somewhere in Canada and only pay like 2% on the money transfer of the house. But it requires experts to all that shit.
Isaac Foster
nice, but I was not talking about only holding and not talking about germany either, so no XMR this time
yeah the more money you have the more options you have, but all that is too expensive for me to arrange at least or I would end up paying more in lawyer fees than taxes kek
Dominic Myers
You win again
Gavin Davis
Of course one solution could be to put everything in USDT or DAI for 1 year and then cash out, but that's pretty risky
kek not from Bulgaria nor do I live there I just thought it was the best alternative. You can see that I recommended the tax free countries as the first option
Lucas Gutierrez
Sure, but I could just make up some bull shit. I doubt they're going to check it. "Oh, I bought tron at X price, sold here!"
Btw, thanks for the thread, really great.
David Lewis
Well aren't you special.
Julian Hughes
Just withdraw under 5-10k a month?
Evan King
Not sure how thorough the tax authorities are, but I know I'll need to provide trading records to one bank I want to open an account with
Adam Nelson
you do realize that according to the SEC you have to trade 5 times in 5 business days to be a day trader?
you can 1000x without trading that much. nobody here is 1000xing by guessing candlestick patterns
James Lewis
...
Oliver Collins
what if u mined 10 BTC in 2012. do i owe the gubment if i change it to USD? and how much?
Caleb Ramirez
I found some more US info from another thread
" You're all idiots if you still don't know this.
1) Move to Puerto Rico for 183 days + make a donation of $5,000 as required by Act 22. 2) Any capital gains from Puerto Rico will not be taxed by Puerto Rico or by the federal govenrment
This won't apply for 99% of you because you're poorfags and will always be poor fags. But if you're trading large amounts of money, this is a way to avoid short-term or long-term capital gains for upcoming years.
If you're too poor for that - then move to a state where no income tax exists so you can reduce your tax load.
The most important things you poor fags can do since you're dealing with amounts of money that are less than say $20,000:
A) Open up a crypto debit card (tenx, bitpay, monaco) and spend up to $20k with less than 200 transactions a year (otherwise it'll be reported to the IRS. B) do no more than $8,000 wire transaction from each exchange into a different bank account with minimum 30 days in between ( to be safe). So Kraken + Bitstamp + Coinbase + Gemini = 4 * $32,000. C) Sell on localbitcoin. D) Buy gold up to $10,000 with bitcoin. E) Use Bitcoin atms.
YMMV. "
Jacob Brown
USDT is one of the safest bets for now
Andrew Young
Good post, should mention that Andorra is also tax free.
Luke King
source?
not sure, maybe income tax on the value in 2012? so almost nothing
Evan Gray
>Veeky Forums >anything being serious >im not just a drunken madman ranting at 4:43 p.m. from an unpayed for internet connection
also why did i just have to solve 22 captchas? are people fucking with the Veeky Forums captcha because of pol? or am i just talking too much and they want me to slow down?
Kevin Collins
Is it tax free or was it flat 10% tax as well? Do you know how hard it is to get residency?
Parker Barnes
Hey taxman, can I use like kind exchange for 2017 taxes? USA. Most things I read say it’s a grey area but you probably shouldn’t. But I really want to because I don’t want to cash out my shitcoins to pay taxes. Thanks for the thread btw.
Nathaniel Price
so when i transfer my eth to binance and start shit trading, will the (((government))) be able to backtrace my shit?
what if i spend the BTC as BTC on frivalous shit and never exchange it for USD
>23 fucking captchas this time, FML
Christian Brooks
Well most US people on biz have said yes for 2017 but no for 2018. Some say like kind never existed at all for crypto. If you want to be sure contact a tax advisor, but if I were you I would only start reporting those this year
Jack Young
cryptoaltcointradingblogspotcouk/2018/01/crypto-trading-and-taxation.html (Put a . before and after blogspot and after co)
Point people to that, if you don't want to copy&paste all that again.
Brayden Moore
I don't know what the fuck is wrong with these captchas
I mean they probably can't trace you, but here is when they can catch you possibly >Buy 1 BTC on Coinbase >Shitcoin trade on Binance >End up with 10 BTC, a 10x gain >Cash out 10 BTC >Government: Where did 9 BTC come from? What will you say?
Chase Wood
i pooped my pants?
Jason Miller
Blog looks good man! thanks for putting this on there.
Nathan Powell
in reality i say i mined it, but even then dont they want their cut?
i know the tax money goes toward killing hodji, propping up the welfare system keeping (((banks))) in control of the mid east. but im not sure if they would spend it wisely...................
Logan Sanchez
I'm from Belgium. I'll do this in Dutch. Ik ga binnenkort naar een fiscaal advocaat gespecialiseerd in crypto. Je vind deze op Google, ik wil hier geen namen vermelden. Een goed kantoor met drie filialen in brussel, gent, leuven. Als je zoals mij dit vroeg genoeg doet, gaan deze voor jou wel iets kunnen fixen. Beter om nu te gaan en al connecties op te bouwen met die mensen en een goed plan uit te werken dan geneukt te worden door Bartje De Wever als jij en alle andere Belgen willen uitcashen. Er bestaat iets al "een ruling". Dit kan je op voorhand laten gebeuren door een rechtzaak, met behulp van jouw advocaten dus. Ik hoop op zo'n manier minder belastingen moeten te betalen. Moest ik de gewone 33% moeten betalen zou ik er nog mee kunnen leven. Maar ik heb al gelezen dat je 50% zou moeten afstaan als je een trader bent. Dat is verschrikkelijk veel! Ik raad je dus aan om naar een fiscaal advocaat te gaan en je situatie voor jezelf goed te krijgen. Als je onder 10K uitcasht is het geen probleem, de bank gaat dit niet echt aangeven. Maar eens je meer als 10K hebt moet je je laten bijstaan. Ikzelf heb 1miljoen en dit is nog maar het begin voor mij denk ik; dus ik ga hulp halen. Groetjes uit Gent!!
Dylan Allen
Taxation is theft , what else is there to know?
Austin Ross
>ill do this in language that less than 1% of the world speaks
some of us are drunk and dont care for your bullshit right now
Tyler Green
If you can trick them into believing you mined it when it was worthless then the tax would be minimal I guess
Logan Phillips
if you do it for 2017 make sure you are a poorfag, cuz IRS will come back in a couple of years and try to audit (rape) you.
Benjamin Bell
Im doing Like-Kind for 2017. 800+ page tax return with 8824s. Im just curious if they will see 800 pages of 8824s, look at one, see its crypto and just reject it entirely. If so, I owe like 5 grand without even cashing out any fiat.
Christopher Jones
maybe yeah
Christian Jackson
let biz know how it goes!
Blake Turner
Zit voorlopig nog maar tussen de 15-20k zonder echt te traden dus zit nog niet echt aan een advocaat te denken maar is wss de beste oplossing. Mag ik vragen hoe je van plan bent om een miljoen uit te cashen?
Carter Wood
nobody has mentioned GIFTING. i have a brother in law in koreak. why can't I send him crypto. he cashes out there. then hands me that cash and i bring it home. under 10k of course. and everything is a gift if that makes it easier. pretty sure that would be legal
Ryan Wood
Canada fag here my accountant told me I'm a trader and it's 100% income cuz I made over 5 trades in 2017
I fired her
was she right?
James Phillips
You know it. Look for the Pink Wojak
Xavier Ortiz
not for US law
Carter Parker
Yes! totally forgot to mention most countries have some tax-free gift, maybe 1-5k worth. If you know a lt of people that you trust you could gift all of them and have them hand you cash
but then you are stuck with cash...
Thomas Cook
Im a japanese passport holder, any idea how the crypto tax is over there?
Zachary Gomez
Forget how much you can gift total before needing a receipt or before you cant gift anymore.
Jackson Young
nobody actually tracks gifts internationally... i think you have to volunteer the info. pic related
Henry Watson
hello tax man, i am a citizen of both USA and Mexico any way to scheme my may from not paying taxes on my gains? also is it a viable option that we just lost the coins when transferring? we all heard the stories where the transfer was made incorrectly and thousands have been lost. when in reality we just transferred it to wallet?
Alexander Brooks
meh I agree that
0.5*1M + 0.5*500K = 950K > 900K
but this only makes sense when you have multiple coin flips
Jason Edwards
any1 really thinking about moving to Bulgaria in the future? If i get 1MM+ and the market is getting regulated to the fuck I'd really consider it, maybe we should create a Veeky Forums community in Bulgaria?
Easton Gomez
No problem, thanks for letting pinch it, good stuff!
Xavier Walker
Canadabro, are you larping. Fuck i dont want to give the liberals my money so they sponser rapefugees.
Jayden Young
One question remains in the case you need to hold for 1 year. If i trade FIAT->ETH->SHITCOIN. Forget the shitcoin for a year go the way back. When i convert back from shitcoin to ETH I would make the wins, but since I hold im ok. But then I have ETH, not fiat.
Robert Gutierrez
losing your money is your own fault. that doesnt mean you dont still owe the government 35% on your gains, +taxed for every trade, after they take 8% sales tax, 1.5% property tax, payroll tax, corporate tax, energy tax, medicare, social security, State income tax, + fees on every business youve ever bought from THAT YOU PAY FOR.
enjoy the 3% cut of your labor user.
and dont forget this is a CAPITALIST SOCIETY, WE ARENT SOCIALIST/FACIST AT ALL. you are in control user! enjoy the fruits of your labors! THE GOVERNMENT DEFINITELY DOESNT CONTROL EVERYTHING.
Benjamin Moore
>0.5*1M + 0.5*500K = 950K you really sure about that user?
