Rare economic discussion thread

This is bullshit.

The reason why we will go into a post-scarcity economy is BECAUSE of greed. Not despite of it.

When the rich will make more profit in a post-scarcity economy compared to a scarcity economy you'll know it'll be inevitable that we'll transition into a post-scarcity economy.

This is already happening right now. Due to exponential growth of technological progress we are experiencing lower and lower production costs for all commodities this includes energy resources such as coal,natural gas,oil but also all types of metals and minerals and even the amount of food production per square kilometre.

And yes before you are going to say "growing population". ALL the global commodities are growing exponentially PER CAPITA. Every year we find more and more oil deposits, mineral ore and we produce exponentially more at simultaniously lower costs while humanity is not even growing exponentially in population anymore.

If we look at for example 2050 and we maintain that USD will inflate 4% each year. And will have the same global population growth as now (In reality population growth is shrinking but for sake of simplicity let's assume we keep growing at current rate). And the production of commodities will also keep growing at current rates than the prices of all goods should be 1000x cheaper in 2050 than they are in 2018.

Yes that is in 2050 (super inflated) dollar prices. Compared to 2018 dollars it would be close to 6000x cheaper.

Can you imagine the impact that will have on humanity? Food cost would be negligible. Metal cost would become so low that production costs of machines would reach an absurdly low amount and most of the price would be pure profit.

THIS is why we are transitioning towards a post-scarcity society. Because companies will have a massively higher profit-margin when the cost of production is negligible.

However post-scarcity does not mean free. Just so cheap that it could as well be considered free.

>ALL the global commodities are growing exponentially PER CAPITA

yet you show us a non log scale graph

If humans were meant to live in a post-scarcity society we wouldn't be greedy or antagonistic, there is no benefit to the species in that behavior except in a scarce environment, where fighting over resources is a life and death matter.
There's this myth that humans are the end point of evolution, but we're extremely badly adapted to any kind of society that doesn't involve hunting and foraging for food.

>how does the economy function in a post-scarcity society?
Okay let me break it down for you OP.

Ignore the keynesians and socialists that will inevitably pollute this thread.

In a free market with free banking(which we do not have now), currency is DEFLATIONARY meaning the price comes down as production increases.
This is good, it means you get cheap shit and it becomes increasingly cheaper for businesses to buy capital to make new businesses or increase the output of their existing businesses. You become richer over time as your wages can purchase more and more goods.

>b-buh where would the jobs come from
Most people would be working much fewer hours so there will be a lot more positions for people to work the same jobs. A lot of people will be retiring at a young age or only work a few months out of the year.
A massive service sector economy will be created when it's less profitable to do manufacturing with all of the automation. Think of amazing restaurants, amusement parks etc everywhere, bigger and bigger houses being build for people etc.

Anti-free market policies are why we still have a 40 hour workweek and the economy is a pile of shit.

>okay that's all fine, but what happens when we get more automated than that, to where prices are literally zero
Then everything is fucking free and nobody would need to work.
Capitalism fuck yeah!!

A millionaire in 2018 would have the quality of life compared to a third world citizen compared to a middle-class 2050s quality of life.

People that reject this world view usually have no idea of the actual numbers involved and how big the actual growth of production actually is in the world.

For example in the last 5 years from 2012 to 2017 we have found more oil deposits than in all of human history combined and we almost tripled oil production.

Similar rates of increase and new deposits were found in almost all mining sectors as well.

People should be thought this at school so we could prepare the next generation to handle an economy with so much excess instead of still educating them as if we will have scarcity in a couple of decades.

>For example in the last 5 years from 2012 to 2017 we have found more oil deposits than in all of human history combined and we almost tripled oil production.
So much for the lefty talking point about "peak oil".

is there no worry about consolidation which is where most of this cost benefit in production comes from today? if we assume future production of most everything is made by a handful of hyper-producers, with fewer and fewer positions of employment, how do we prevent people being shed from the economy? how does the economy continue to incentivize producers to meet the demands of people who may never be anything but consumers? if we're taxing money from producers to give to people to buy from the producers (this has already begun with walmart and amazon encouraging their employees to apply for foodstamps) wont there be a ceiling where money is meaningless?

oil consumption is down though.

The amount of positions of employment will initially only replace production jobs. Which will be replaced by service and IT jobs.

Sure in the very far future those might also be automated away but that is on a too long of a timescale to anticipate.

People didn't anticipate that automation of the agrarian sector would result in the economy turning towards an industry sector. And we also didn't predict the automation of the industry sector would result in a switch to a service economy.

Who knows what kind of sector opens up when we automate the service industry away. Some people are already calling for the birth of the 4th sector. Them being internet entertainers. Patreon artists,Youtubers,Twitch streamers etc. But I don't think this will the general trend.

To be honest nobody knows. But the post-scarcity economy is inevitable due to competition forces basically forcing it upon the world.

>In a free market with free banking(which we do not have now), currency is DEFLATIONARY
why are you implying current currency isnt deflationary? federal bank inflation targets are not being met. the problem with deflation is it makes debts harder to pay off, burdening debtors and decreasing investment.

communism

we already live in a post scarcity society at least as far as basic needs go, the only reason people have to suffer is because the profit motive

every single family in america could have their own house and eat for years on the amount of empty houses hoarded by landlords and perfectly edible food thrown away by corporations

bruh you're decribing communism

>why are you implying current currency isnt deflationary?
Why do retards post dumb bullshit and think they won't get btfo?
pic related

>the problem with deflation is it makes debts harder to pay off,
lol we wouldn't have these massive debts in the fucking first place if we didn't have all of this inflation and low interest rates
fuck off keynesian scum

How can such utopoa even work? Without motivation no people would go to the work

If you'd read Marx's theory of economics you'd see that he was actually a proponent of capitalism because socialism would develop as an automatic process out of capitalism.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marx's_theory_of_history

There's even a movement within socialist theory that says we should try to make society as capitalist as possible because that will lead to a faster post-scarcity economy that will lead to socialism.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accelerationism

I am in no way socialist or subscribe to socialist thinking. However as an economist I am expected to be familiar with all different types of economic theory.

We will never enter post-scarcity because scarcity is a means of control.
If you believe that as a species we will collectively agree to not assert power upon each other and we all leave our weapons at the door, you are a fool.

Maybe everyone will have their necessities taken care of, but that doesn't mean we are post scarcity. That would be like saying the cattle at a ranch live in a post scarcity society. All their needs are taken care of, but the ranchers have ulterior motives, ultimately taking more from them than they had received.

im not even talking about jobs being automated away, im talking about the profit motive...
the more efficient the economy the more the profit margin is the inefficieny in the market.
when theres no more profit margin either the motive has to change away from profit or something else gives like wages or the health of the producer.

It's the exact opposite of socialism
It's capitalism itself causing post scarcity, not capitalism turning into socialism

Socialists need to be slaughtered
please die

Think about this however.

What would happen to a gold standard currency when gold can be manufactured for pennies using nuclear fusion powered transmutation within this century?

The ironic reason why gold standard currency will not be viable in the future is because gold will be a inflationary commodity in the far future.

>f you believe that as a species we will collectively agree to not assert power upon each other and we all leave our weapons at the door, you are a fool.

This is EXACTLY why we will reach a post-scarcity society. It's game theory. Producers will have to compete with each other. And because they all know the commodity will decrease in price in the future due to lower and lower production cost. They will all try to produce as much as possible now that it still has a higher value. Ironically accelerating the process. This is normal and the reason why price of goods always approach the cost of production in the long term (in a free market).

The profit margin would still be in place it would just be spread out over more goods thus the amount of profit margin charged per unit of good gets lower with time meaning the price gets as close as possible to production cost for individual consumers while still maintaining a profitmargin for the producer.

Motives will never move away from profit unless there is a serious ideological change in the entire population, which I don't expect to see this century.

>adding arrows to your chart

>What would happen to a gold standard currency when gold can be manufactured for pennies using nuclear fusion powered transmutation within this century?
I support a crypto standard, user.
Gold worked for it's time but it won't work anymore.

>posting a made up inflation chart using manipulated CPI numbers
>being a keynesian retard
>pretending there's no inflation at all while posting a graph of inflation
At least I got you to admit the currency was inflationary as there IS inflation in your chart, idiot.

TO POL WITH YOU middle-upper class ideologue navel gazers

>deflationary means a negative percentage
the downward trend is what is normally called "deflation" and a negative inflation percentage is not a good idea. that would make currency a speculative commodity rather than a regular use unit of exchange.

First, you are assuming most people have any capability for planning for the future and making economic decisions about their ROI on production.
Second, you still don't understand the means of power.

Maybe you are saying post-scarcity is the same as post-lack-of-necesities, but the powers that be will regulate production in order to control their people. Those people will be free from threat from outside sources, but may very well be under duress from their own systems of stability. Seriously, even in Orwell's Oceania, they practiced this. We can see what scarcity did in China and Russia as well. It's very effective in keeping your citizens in line.
Even if you'd like to posit that working for the company store or being part of the in power party might secure all your needs, and hence post-scarcity, that doesn't mean you still have everything you once had. You will have lost your liberty, your dignity, and your potential for the new. The lack of these opportunities will cause scarcity, and man will go back on his way to new horizons where the food is less prevalent.

>>deflationary means a negative percentage
Yes.
Yes, it literally does you stupid idiot.

The US dollar has lost most of it's value since the fed was created.
If we had a deflationary currency it would be gaining value.

>the downward trend is what is normally called "deflation"
Literally nobody uses gay keynesian definitions for these things.

>Literally nobody uses gay keynesian definitions for these things.
keynesian? i have a balloon that is 80% capacity filled, i let out air so that it is now 50% filled.....the air is still positive but i deflated the balloon.

>i have a balloon that is 80% capacity filled, i let out air so that it is now 50% filled.....the air is still positive but i deflated the balloon.

If you started from 80% sure
But a deflationary currency means it's always deflating unless something crazy happens like a bunch of supply gets destroyed.

The OVERALL TREND of the past 100 years has been massive inflation, the tiny bits of deflation that have happened are extremely irrelevant because they wouldn't be enough to offset the massive overall inflation that has taken place

An elite will still exist at the top and wield power. Of course the basic needs of the population will be catered.

why are all your charts about gold standard?
gold is a commodity, if you make money deflationary it will also become a commodity and then we have to make another new currency

>why are all your charts about gold standard?
Why does this matter?
They are charts showing inflation is real which debunks your main argument.

> if you make money deflationary it will also become a commodity
This isn't a bad thing.
A deflationary money is a good thing.

>A money that is rarely spent is a good thing.
you are sorely mistaken.

>Due to exponential growth of technological progress we are experiencing lower and lower production costs for all commodities this includes energy resources such as coal,natural gas,oil but also all types of metals and minerals
>exponential growth of technological progress
You can't change the laws of physics, which is why this statement is retarded. It's getting harder and harder to extract resources because the easy to get at resources are already tapped, technology only allows us to extract the harder to get at resources at an increased cost.

>the amount of food production per square kilometre.
The amount of food production per square km is higher due to the use of greenhouses and burning of fossil fuels. 90% of all calories are produced by the use of fossil fuels, as fossil fuels become harder to extract, the cost of food will increase relative to everything else because more resources and manpower will be devoted to their production.

>If we look at for example 2050 and we maintain that USD will inflate 4% each year.
Assumption

I'm not sure if this is pasta, but it's based on tons of assumptions that are idealistic and reality isn't based on ideals. Keep dreaming kiddo.

>rarely spent
Remember when you said you weren't a keynesian?
You're repeating ALL of his main ideas.

Money will be spend, it will be saved first though so actual economic production can take place.
You need to produce things before you can consume them.

>If humans were meant to live
Stopped reading there creationistfag

the purpose of money is a medium of exchange, if the money itself is gaining in value then there is a massive incentive to sit on it. sitting on it degrades its value as a medium of exchange, creating a need for a new money.
money has to be inflationary or you end up with a bunch of endless and pointless spin offs like cryptocurrency.

>it becomes increasingly cheaper for businesses to buy capital to make new businesses or increase the output of their existing businesses
Once I make a certain amount of money from my business, what's the point of investing more into it? Why would I do the effort to grow it if I already have everything I want? You're assuming people will put effort into improving things when life is easy.

>Most people would be working much fewer hours
If this meme was true, I'd be working 30 hours a week already.
>A massive service sector economy will be created when it's less profitable to do manufacturing with all of the automation. Think of amazing restaurants, amusement parks etc everywhere, bigger and bigger houses being build for people etc.
We already have automation, we have chinks in china making our shit. This dream you have isn't going to come true, but I'm sure you'll forever be the optimist.

If you knew anything about oil production you would know that more and more energy is being required to extract the new oil reserves. This means that the benefit of said reserves to society is less than the easy to extract oil.

>if the money itself is gaining in value then there is a massive incentive to sit on it.
No, shit, it's called SAVINGS. It's the lifeblood of the economy. You can't produce something without first underconsumption.

>sitting on it degrades its value as a medium of exchange, creating a need for a new money.
This is horseshit lol.
The industrial revolution in USA happened under a deflationary gold standard.
People actually wanted to use gold as money BECAUSE it gained value.
People want the same with crypto.
People will only hold it for a period of time, they will eventually want to spend the gains made from saving this money, in fact with a massive supply of savings, people would be spending a fuckton because they have so much and they have a nest egg that keeps fucking growing.

>Once I make a certain amount of money from my business, what's the point of investing more into it?
True. You can actually retire. This is getting incredibly hard now but it won't be in a free market.
You're right lol.

>You're assuming people will put effort into improving things when life is easy.
LOL Why would it be BAD if life was easy?
You people are basically admitting you're parasites trying to make life harder for everyone.

>If this meme was true, I'd be working 30 hours a week already.
No you wouldn't.
We have an inflationary currency, not a free market deflationary one.
Did you even read my post you gigantic retard?

>We already have automation, we have chinks in china making our shit.
Which if we had a free market, we could all have like 10 hour workweeks and the chinks would be our slaves.

In a society where everything is essentially free, people would be motivated to do things which interest them.

The amount of artists, engineers, scientists etc who are working out of passion for the craft will explode.

You could also be lazy and do nothing but there is no difference between that in a post scarcity society and NEET's today.

>Deflation being a good thing
Brainlet detected. What do you do when you know that your money becomes worth more over time. You HODL it, because you know that if you just delay your purchase then you get more bang for your buck. Similarly, your debts will also become worth more over time, meaning that if you want to start a business, that you have to outperform the deflation before you are even able to pay off your debt. Good luck doing that when everyone is HODLing their money and thus not consuming. So under deflation, demand decreases and as such the production of goods decreases, which will raise the unemployment level. There is a reason why we call deflation the ugly sister of inflation.

what if money was entirely removed in favor of debt?
before there was money there was debts "i did X for you so you do Z for me"
of course i mean this in a purely accounting sort of fashion, not usury. it would be expected that most people would have negative balance sheets but those balances wouldn't get pilled on to with interest.
meaning that there is no longer a cap on what any one person can spend, they create debt as they need it.
then it's only a matter of what incentive there is for a positive balance so that producers don't just give up.

>Brainlet detected.
You're the brainlet lol
The industrial revolution in the USA happened under a deflationary gold standard
It was an extremely good thing

>What do you do when you know that your money becomes worth more over time. You HODL it
Christ, I already debunked this here and I'm not typing it out again, fuck you lazy brainlet:

>You can't change the laws of physics, which is why this statement is retarded. It's getting harder and harder to extract resources because the easy to get at resources are already tapped, technology only allows us to extract the harder to get at resources at an increased cost.

This would normally be true. But the rate of which it becomes harder to extract grows slower than our technological ability to extract it better. Which means that prices will get lower as production cost drops. This is not some opinion or speculation, actual numbers support this.

Please read this en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ore to understand why. (We only classify places as "ore containing" if they are economically extractable which grows exponentially every year).

>The amount of food production per square km is higher due to the use of greenhouses and burning of fossil fuels. 90% of all calories are produced by the use of fossil fuels, as fossil fuels become harder to extract, the cost of food will increase relative to everything else because more resources and manpower will be devoted to their production.

Not true the primary reason it's growing exponentially is the cultivation of higher yielding strains and recently the GMO movement, In fact we are decreasing fuel usage in the farming industry.

>Assumption
Yes it's an assumption. But I picked the worst possible scenario on purpose to show that even in the worst-case it'll still be a very optimistic projection.

>Once I make a certain amount of money from my business, what's the point of investing more into it? Why would I do the effort to grow it if I already have everything I want? You're assuming people will put effort into improving things when life is easy.

This is provably not true. A person's wants & needs always scales. A peasant from 1300s would be satisfied with enough potatoes to fill his belly.

>People will only hold it for a period of time, they will eventually want to spend the gains made from saving this money
which they'll do by exchanging the portion they intend to use to an inflationary currency because an actual currencies is the only thing available to buy with a commodity.
how do you not get that? it's not money anymore.
and thats fine with gold, it can be used to produce stuff of value but when you start turning things with limited underlying value into commodities through manipulative fiscal policy of deflation youre just begging for a crash.

>We already have automation, we have chinks in china making our shit. This dream you have isn't going to come true, but I'm sure you'll forever be the optimist.

The rate of automation is increasing and pushing the costs of production down which will push the cost of goods down with it. Your point about chinks in china is also very outdated as most factories don't employ low-skilled human labour anymore since automation has progressed enough that it's by far the most profitable route nowadays. Most of those plants are now in the west since they actually reduce costs due to lower transportation costs and a higher high-skilled worker productivity than in for example China.

I know a lot about oil production. Advanced AI-guided drilling and neural-net based geological surveys has pushed the cost of production down exponentially. What you are talking about is purely traditional crude oil pumps which is nowadays just a small % of total oil production. Tar sands, off-shore and shale dominate the industry now.

>which they'll do by exchanging the portion they intend to use to an inflationary currency
No, they're simply BUY THINGS with their deflationary money.
This is exactly what happens all of the time in eras of deflationary currency.

Your mythical scenerio is not what happened at all.

Why do you keep repeating this obvious fairy tale garbage?

Have you considered what would happen if technological progress in modern society hit a 'hard cap' of sorts?

Technological progress isn't guaranteed to accelerate ad infinitum. Look at Moore's Law. Progress in chipset manufacture is still slowing down.

While I hope for a post scarcity world during my lifetime I do believe that we'll soon hit at least a barrier of sorts on the technological progress of society.

> Some people are already calling for the birth of the 4th sector. Them being internet entertainers.
This will in no way be sustainable whatsoever. Succes in these occupations is based inherently on popularity and as such only a small part of the population will be able to make a living out of it.

>refuses to give up on paying with gold coins
>we're the ones living in a fairy tale
ok...

>we're the ones living in a fairy tale
You literally are because you're denying an entire ERA of american history existed.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gilded_Age

How do you live with yourself that your ideology is a fucking lie?
People successfully used a deflationary gold backed currency for decades and this resulted in an industrial revolution. Nobody "demanded" an inflationary one. LOL
The facts are right in front of your face yet you refuse to admit you are wrong.
I swear, we need to wipe you people from the gene pool.

>Moore's Law
We are now on the Maturity/discontinuity stage of silicon processors.

However this has happened in the past before. Vacuum tubes, Germanium transistors all reached this point and were replaced by a superior technology. Moore's Law is a temporary slowdown until we will have access to Graphene based processors.

You are right about a theoretical hard cap on technological growth, but I don't see that happen within the next couple of decades and if our current trends continue we would arguably already be at a post-scarcity society stage.

Yes I personally also don't subscribe to the thought that "Internet entertainers" will be the 4th sector. However I still remember when my boomer dad thought that the service sector would never be big enough to carry an entire economy. "Not everyone will be able to be waiters and office workers" Is something people truly thought back then. Remember the Service economy only truly exists since the late 70's to early 80's. It's not been in existence for very long.

you're basing your entire world view on a 20 year period in america?

>Putting the cart before the horse
Because of the spike in technology, production levels surged to never before seen heights. The increase in supply pressured the prices downwards, causing deflation. So the industrial revolution is what caused deflation to happen and not the other way around. One might even argue that the benefits of the increase in technology levels managed to offset the negatives of deflation.

>20 year period
It lasted like 60 years.
I don't base my worldview on it. It's a good example of what could happen though.
I was using it as a counterexample to destroy your claim that a deflationary currency wouldn't work as money and people would demand an inflationary one.
People DIDN'T demand an inflationary one for like 60 years.

Notice how I've reduced you down to one sentence now.
Can you FINALLY admit you were wrong the entire time?
Grow up. shit

>>Putting the cart before the horse
But you're doing the same thing.

>Because of the spike in technology
The spike in technology happened because the price of capital kept coming down and businesses were able to innovate and mass produce more leading to prices for capital coming down even more.

>So the industrial revolution is what caused deflation to happen and not the other way around.
Dude they were on a fucking gold standard you idiot.
A gold standard is by definition deflationary. There's no central bank to inflate the money supply.

>negatives of deflation
OH NO LOWER PRICES AND HIGHER LIVING STANDARDS HOW HORRIBLE

even 60 years is extremely narrow.
economies are faster now so boom bust cycles are also spend up but with older slower economies the booms and bust went longer. you're looking at a boom period (not including the southern states or the rest of the world) and extrapolating it was because their currency system was better when i can easily point to the great depression which was global and clearly tied to a restrictive money supply strangling growth.

Everything that can not be easily replicated by machines (or become abundant thanks to advanced extraction techniques) is now at a premium.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Great_Deflation
Ow, w8 what. I see that your precious industrial revolution actually happened during an inflationary golden standard.
>The Great Deflation occurred despite an increase in the world's gold supply, which William Stanley Jevons predicted would result in inflation.
So once more, there was at the base level inflation going on but because of the industrial revolution and increased production it became deflationary.

I forgot to add an important last bit:
Get BTFO you dumbass.

>extremely narrow.
HOLY SHIT LOL
What the fuck more do you want?
You are running out of arguments here.
It's like you know you're wrong but you keep grasping for straws to attempt to face face.
60s years isn't good enough?
60 years where the entire economy thrived and production levels dramatically increased
The USSR lasted 71 years, are you saying that period of time isn't long enough to gauge whether socialism works or not?

Even if for whatever reason it literally only worked for 60 years and then a minor crash happened and we had to start again, 60 years of high levels of economic growth is an incredibly good thing and much better than the current shit system.

>economies are faster now so boom bust cycles are also spend up but with older slower economies the booms and bust went longer.
Boom and bust cycles last much longer now.
Under a gold standard busts were only the result of government intervention in the market and only lasted a few months to a year.

>hen i can easily point to the great depression which was global and clearly tied to a restrictive money supply strangling growth.
This is hilariously wrong because the great depression was the fault of inflationary forces in the 20s leading to malinvestment and an inevitable crash. When the crash happened, the government implemented massive economic controls which strangled the market and created a 10+ year long depression.

>Everything that can not be easily replicated by machines is now at a premium.

With time that category will only shrink more and more. Until only subjective valuable things remain such as art.

Even real estate will eventually crumble as human population stabilizes somewhere at ~10 billion people and then slowly decline towards an estimated 3 billion.

>en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Great_Deflation
>he Great Deflation occurred at the beginning of the period sometimes called the Second Industrial Revolution. It was characterized by dramatic increases in productivity made possible by the transition from agriculture to industrialization in the leading economies.
Thanks for proving my point dipshit.

>which William Stanley Jevons predicted would result in inflation.
Which actually didn't.
The money supply increased very little in some years, it stayed the same other years, but the OVERALL EFFECT was a deflationary currency.
Prices decreased, I mean the article even admits that.
Why didn't it result in all of these horrible things you fucking idiots constantly say it would?
Why didn't it?
Explain yourself.

>Get BTFO you dumbass.
Just fucking kill yourself you delusional keynesian shitstain.
We hate your kind here and crypto is going to destroy central banking whether you like it or not.

save face*

However, the flaw in your counter example of a deflationary currency that worked was actually an example of an inflationary currency as during that time period the world's gold supply had actually increased.

>was actually an example of an inflationary currency
No, no it wasn't. The gold supply increased very very slightly, only some years, other years it remained stagnant but deflationary pressures vastly outweighed the minor increases in gold supply. It's not like this tiny increase in gold production helped the economy in any way? Why would it have done that, why would making the cost of capital MORE EXPENSIVE for producers somehow help increase economic output? They would have to produce less with less inputs.
The value of the dollar increased dramatically during that period.
This is deflation.

If we had an inflationary currency during that time(like a central bank) they would have printed a bunch of money and the value of the dollar would go down dramatically like it has since 1913.

So we have a very long era with a deflationary currency that was VERY SUCCESSFUL and you're still saying it would cause all of these problems and people wouldn't want to use it?

Are you absolutely fucking insane?

It was only succesfull because of the industrial revolution and not the other way around.What the deflation actually trigged was the Panic of 1873 which on it's turn caused the Long Depression. So I don't see why you contribute all the advancements that the US economy made to deflation when it was in actuality holding it back.

thanks for torpedoing this thread with your abhorrent views of how the world works

>It was only succesfull because of the industrial revolution
kek
It was the other way around though.
There wouldn't be an industrial revolution if prices didn't decrease.
The entire reason there were massive growth rates year after year was because the price of capital was decreasing.
If the price of capital was INCREASING then output would decrease.

Do you not understand these basic facts?

>Panic of 1873 which on it's turn caused the Long Depression.
HAHAHAHAHA
The long depression was a fucking MYTH
Wages were increasing while prices were declining ALL throughout this period. Economic output was INCREASING.
wiki.mises.org/wiki/Long_Depression
The only people that got butthurt were dumb farmers that got in debt(thanks to previous government bullshit interventionism), but this debt was liquidated.

>So I don't see why you contribute all the advancements that the US economy made to deflation when it was in actuality holding it back.
I proved it's the exact opposite several times and you cannot refute me.
You can't just repeat something over and over hoping it will become true.

Just admit you're fucking wrong.
Tell me why people didn't want to switch their deflationary gold standard to an inflationary one during this period to buy things like you previously said.
Why are you so intellectually dishonest?

Why do people act like this when they realize they are wrong?
Why can't they just admit they were wrong like adults.

I mean your central bank bullshit isn't going to last too much longer, the entire point of crypto is to destroy the inflationary central banker system.

Sure it allowed for people that had capital saved up to start an actual business. Problem however is that the products they were producing were selling for less and less, making them unable to PAY DENBTS which were tied to a past when the price levels were higher. Ensue banking crisis:
Thousands of American businesses failed, defaulting on more than a billion dollars of debt.
>Tell me why people didn't want to switch their deflationary gold standard to an inflationary one during this period to buy things like you previously said.
Well that is objectively untrue:
In addition, there were US citizens who advocated the continuance of government-issued fiat money (United States Notes) to avoid deflation and promote exports.

yes

>Problem however is that the products they were producing were selling for less and less, making them unable to PAY DENBTS which were tied to a past when the price levels were higher.
It was basically a myth though, economic production continued to have massive growth all throughout this period.
If this hypothetical scenario was true then economic production would have grinded to a halt. It clearly didn't as economic output was increasing dramatically throughout this time.
The depression didn't even happen. It was just a myth created by confused economists.
>Thousands of American businesses failed
Source?

>In addition, there were US citizens who advocated the continuance of government-issued fiat money (United States Notes) to avoid deflation and promote exports.
Bullshit.
You said people would want their deflationary money be turned into inflationary money so they could SPEND IT, not that their debts would be wiped away.

Welp was a good thread while it lasted OP.

Hope some Veeky Forums kiddies read through it and learn a thing or two.

>You said people would want their deflationary money be turned into inflationary money so they could SPEND IT, not that their debts would be wiped away.
those are not conflicting sentiments. you have to SPEND to pay off debts. inflation makes your debts cheaper to pay off.

>post-scarcity society
this will never exist

>that pic
which shitcoin is that

>still posting
I'm going to sleep after this post

>those are not conflicting sentiments. you have to SPEND to pay off debts
That's nice, I was previously talking about spending on consumer goods which is when you made that statement to me.
Not about debts.
These minor "debts" were liquidated anyway during this period while economic output dramatically increased. Living standards for workers were dramatically increasing all throughout this time.

>inflation makes your debts cheaper to pay off.
What a monumental and horrible price to pay.
Why should people who made good economic decisions be punished and have their lives and savings destroyed in order to save a few people who made bad economic decisions?

Why should we sacrifice massive levels of economic production so a few butthurt farmers can pay their debt off faster?
Think about all of the things I've told you, I hope some of it seeped through as you are clearly unable to refute anything I'm saying here and nitpicking on minor issues now.
lol

Ok but then why does a new iPhone cost over $1000 now?

...

>Why should people who made good economic decisions be punished and have their lives and savings destroyed in order to save a few people who made bad economic decisions?
because a functioning economy is inherently a socialist endeavor.
without supporting the majority (consumers) during the hard times, the producers will fail even when doing everything right.
inflation eating toxic debt is better than toxic debt causing massive defaulting that destroys any will to invest and can even sink banks.

If things are no longer scarce, we move to an economy where things are not scarce, we start determining net worth by attention, worship, and reputation because people's time becomes the only finite thing left. If everyone's immortal, we lose our shit and go back to determining worth by capacity for violence and the ability to impose scarcity.

Humans can't accept pure utopia.

Post-scarcity doesn't mean there's suddenly infinite land, just that physical things are ridiculously cheap.
So pretty much like today, except basic things are nearly free. Imagine if food, clothes and other physical goods are cheap like internet bandwidth. It's not exactly free and becomes expensive if you need lots of it, but for a normal internet user (ie. unmetered 100-1000mbps) it is.

Because you still need to live somewhere people are still going to work in some capacity. Rent is going to consume 90%+ of average wage.

the physical problems are only a small part of it, bitcoin has proven that. no one is going to buy 2 chiclets with a 10k chiclet transaction fee.

>king shitcoin is all crypto

by this literal ~scarcity is value~ definition then consumption will be the scarcity instead of production.
is lambo going to pay me to take a lambo?

if you make a crypto deflationary there will be a small window where its useful as a currency, followed by speculative trading like a commodity (and/or crashing).
theres not really any getting around it, it's maths.

There is no post scarcity society. At best you get a strong welfare system where food, clothing and shelter and maybe some other necessities are provided in the event you are unable to provide them for yourself. Past that you will always have a “work harder, earn more points” system.

>all cryptos follow the same model

>if you make a crypto deflationary
it was qualified.