The BOTTOM LINE for USA citizens for Crypto Tax

>irs thinks it can tax an exchange of entries on a digital ledger
Kek.
Suck my nuts glow in the dark niggers. I have steel core 5.56 for anybody who comes for my crypto gains.

This is not a honeypot thread you stupid faggot. I spoke with Tyson Cross

Its true, i can confirm. IRS insider here, just witnessed a bulk shipment of KY jelly coming into the agency recently

people who are not retarded knew this years ago

>If the market crashes completely, then there is nothing you can do, you still owe those taxes regardless if the market crashes AFTER your trade.
capital losses offset capital gains in the same year, dipshit

>B-bros we need to start a revolution

God you sound like such a faggot. The IRS will take these crypto gains from my cold dead fucking hands.

You think these fucking underfunded government monkeys are able to track every single fucking trade in a random exchange in Hong Kong? Absolutely not. These fucking clowns couldn't even build a proper UI for a state level emergency system. If you pay taxes on crypto you are the definition of a cuckold.

>The IRS will take these crypto gains from my cold dead fucking hands.

If you don't revolt, the government will continue to grow in order to meet the demands it makes on you.

wow OP nice detective work

That's why I'm not doing anything this year. I'll wait til they make sensible laws and I'll take whatever penalty they throw at me. Fuck the current system! I'm not doing it! And they can't make me!

No it won't. US government can barely function as it is and gets shit tier workers. Those autismos wouldn't be able to track my monero if they spent the rest of their lives trying.

>start a revolution

Non retards were ready for this treatment (and were aware that this is how all other investments work) Go occupy wall street or something brainlet

I have a question. My net capital gains offset my net capital losses, correct?

So if at one point I had $200,000 cashed out in USD as profit on Gdax, but then I bought back into the market and lost it all and then cashed out at a loss, I don't pay taxes on it right?

Meaning if my net difference for the year was a loss, then I don't pay taxes on it, correct?

In other words, at least technically, if someone made $500,000 in crypto and even cashed out to fiat, but then bought back in and then lost it all in a scam, that person wouldn't have to pay taxes on those former gains, right?

Yes this is correct.

Technically trading of any kind is considered a taxable event. If you trade mtg cards, you’re supposed to report it. If you make a sale on eBay or Craigslist, you’re supposed to report it. With this latest tax law, anything that holds worth is essentially taxable.

Thing is no one reports these earnings and the IRS doesn’t have the power to go after every single person. Just pay your taxes when you cash out and if they come after you, then you can try paying the taxable events and the minuscule fine.

Eventually the IRS will figure how to properly tax crypto in the following years and 2017/2018 will only be a hiccup

itt: 12 year olds giving advice on tax law

>No it won't.
Yes, it will. Government debt and budget as a % of GDP is increasing
>Those autismos wouldn't be able to track my monero if they spent the rest of their lives trying.
That's irrelevant. They will shut down all fiat for crypto exchanges. They will shut down every online market. Dealing with crypto at all will be illegal (already a thing in India). Eventually, ISPs will monitor transactions broadcasts (which are all public, mind you) to find malcontents like you.

And even if somehow you can hold on to your crypto through all this. it won't matter. Your personal freedoms will be curtailed to the point that you will be nothing more than a serf

>trade 100$ worth of eth for 100$ worth of shitcoin
>negative gain due to fees
not only is the tax 0 on that trade but you can deduct it from you taxes because its considered a loss.
not hard to fucking understand

larp the I RS doesn't use lub

Yes - if it occurs in the same year. If a crash happens like in 2013, and you owe taxes you cant pay in fiat, you're screwed. But I dont think we'll see a crash like 2013 again.

Burger here
Suck my dick
>paying taxes on crypto to crypto
Don't make me laugh op you cuck

Also if i end up being forced to pay it, you only pay your realized gains when you cash out. END OF STORy

Cool. So cash everything out of Gdax at the end of the year, make your own crypto currency on a contract address nobody knows about on Ethereum, sell to yourself via Etherdelta as a means of laundering the money, and claim it all at a loss.

Then have the mysterious person who scammed you mysteriously airdrop your money back to you January of the next year.

Or hell, even just get one of those debit cards that uses Tether and use an anonymous Bitcoin address for it.

I "lost my addresses" with all my stuff on them. No, even better, I gave them all to some guy for Bitconnect and Confido. Silly me whoops.
Why is this difficult?

correct

that's the nice thing about these worthless shitcoins i bought with a small chunk of my portfolio

they count as capital losses

No. Gains are realized whenever you do a crypto-to-crypto trade and you have a USD gain.

So like I mentioned here: This shit is still incredibly easy to fake and evade, yes?

WHAT YOU DO WITH YOUR CRYPTO IS YOUR BUISSNESS AND YOURS ALONE

FUCK THE IRS BUY YOUR SHIT WITH YOUR COINS AND TELL THEM NOTHING

COINS ARE AN EXIT TO THE
CVCKBUX

freedom

1. The IRS isn't stupid
2. 99.9% of cryptos have a fully public ledger
3. You have to account for where your profits came from or they will fine you, seize your assets and possibly put you in jail

Nope.

So basically you owe taxes on your gains. And the tax is triggered whenever you exchange. Why is that complicated?
You can also claim capital losses if you lose a trade.

>I recently spent some money, and spoke to several crypto tax specialist tax attorney's and CPA's. The overall message is very clear:
protip lads

DO
NOT
TALK
TO
CPAS

DISCUSSIONS WITH CPAS ARE NOT PROTECTED LIKE DISCUSSIONS WITH LAWYERS OR DOCTORS

Fuck off IRS.

because Veeky Forums is fucking retarded and can't grok that it's basically no different than trading stocks where you trade stock A for stock B

>99.9% of cryptos have a fully public ledger
I can make an ETH address with nothing more than a pen and paper and send my coins to it. Public or not it doesn't matter. And plenty of coins have private ledgers to use too but I didn't even include those.

>You have to account for where your profits came from
I unironically made close to a million dollars liquidating my ELIX addresses, which were airdropped to me for free, mostly right after the new year. Yes, almost a million dollars airdropped to me (each address was liquidated for roughly 55k at the peak and I signed up for as many as I could back when they were still Timereum). Also all the genesis addresses are publicly available online and you can see which have been liquidated and which have not been liquidated.

So it's pretty easy to use that and other airdrops as a scapegoat, really, with plausible records to "show it."
I have a feeling people who don't know the thousands of methods which exist for doing this exactly like I just described above aren't too familiar with this space.

If I write a smart contract to keep me from being able to cash out or do anything with my gains which expires after new years, do I own my money during that time???

airdrops are income lad, that's even worse than long term capital gains

IRS gonna fuck you hard if you cash out anything worthwhile.

If you make below 7 figures the chances of getting audited are miniscule. like half a percent chance.

>making below 7 figures
not even a human being desu

poorcucks get out

Airdrops are considered income like mining and masternodes. If you liquidated it, you will have to pay short term/income tax on it, regardless if you got "scammed". It doesn't matter because you still owe tax.

>airdrops are income
Again you're missing the point. I "lost all my money on December 20th". I "regained a million dollars on January 10th." This is ALMOST entirely true. The point is that faking this is incredibly easy to do even if you never really lost your money.

Incredibly easy to do, even in ways which are not traceable.

Doing so would, according to the tax law, exempt you from paying any crypto taxes. You'd have to do the same thing the next year again, of course, but yeah.

I bet you idiots also calculate your taxes using solely your highest income bracket. Times like these makes me glad I never follow financial/investing advice from this board.

yeah no way tax authorities will ever catch onto this and put you in prison.

actually it's possible that you have to pay income even if you never liquidate them

You missed the complete point of my post.
The point isn't really whether I got an airdrop or not. The point is that after laundering your money for the end of the year and hiding it away successfully, it's trivial to "explain" where all this new money suddenly came from because of all the airdrops. Pick one and say you own however many addresses of it.

They been doing a lot to fight the 40% evasion that currently exists but crypto is mostly under radar for now.

And what will you do when you're on trial for tax evasion and you cannot prove that you own those addresses?

Better prepare that asshole of yours

That is where you are wrong. If you are one of the unlucky ones who get singled out. Cash your crypto out and lawyer up and fight until you are bankrupt. Your money is gone either way. May as well set a nice precedent for the rest of us.

You can hide the money away all you want, but you wont be able to use it. Once you use it, then the IRS is going to want to know where it came from and how you obtained it. Hiding it away doesn't matter.

>actually it's possible that you have to pay income even if you never liquidate them
I automated signing up with different ETH addresses for some airdrops and still haven't calculated how much I would make on them if I liquidated.

What exactly defines ownership here? Like I mentioned here: If I can't reasonably convert my asset to fiat money, then do I really own it?

this

Ah but I have a way of getting around this as well. See I have friends in foreign countries which don't have taxes for crypto. I send them my crypto money, they cash out into their bank accounts, and I have debit cards and full access to their bank accounts. This method relies on trusting them, yes, but it has worked for me so far since I use family members who understand what I'm doing for this and who have agreed to accept about $2000 each in exchange for allowing me to do this. It works.

>not only do i want to commit tax evasion, i want to expose myself to excessive counter-party risk as well while doing it

you're a genius user

If it works, it's not a problem though. It's also something I already did. Fight me IRS

America, le keep 56% of your money face.

I talked to a tax lawyer and either you were lied to or you’re lying.

Like kind are most likely not going to be taxed, because you’re not recognizing gains.

So eat a dick with your FUD

Are you in the US? Which countries are they in? Which countries does this work in?

What happens if I just cash out what I put in?

And is there any concrete evidence that we cannot apply like kind trades for the 2017 tax year?

>I recently spent some money, and spoke to several crypto tax specialist tax attorney's and CPA's. The overall message is very clear:

this line is a giveaway. imo.

That is 100% INCORRECT

You are only allowed to write off $3000 a year in losses.

consider the following
>the entire point of DLT is that accounts and transactions are public and stored forever

>there is no statue of limitations on tax evasion

>crypto has had so much money in it this year that tax authorities will be targeting people in it, especially because it's full of retards and libertarians who think they can get away with not paying

you will have to worry for
THE
REST
OF
YOUR
LIFE

about being arrested/massively fined

you'll never, EVER be able to go to passport control without fear

you'll have a jolt of fear anytime you read about governments going after crypto

wrong faggot, 3k/year only applies to carry over to the next year

you can offset 900 million in capital gains with 890 million capital losses and only have to pay tax on 10 million capital gains

also to kill this retarded superstition

irs.gov/credits-deductions/individuals/deducting-capital-losses-at-a-glance

>You may be able to deduct capital losses up to the amount of your capital gains plus $3,000 ($1,500 if married filing separately).

...

I'm not paying taxes. Fuck all this.

What kind of life do you live anyway, as a pussy?

What I dont get is if crypto to crypto, how are you supposed to calculate the "gain"
Say you go from ETH to BAT and the ETH is trading higher than you bought it for. Let's say about $100 higher.
Where are you expected to compute the gain from? The average price of ETH that day? If so, where? Some random bumfuck exchange? IRS certainly wont have an accepted ETH price.
What a stupid fucking system.

the kind where 15% of my gains is easily worth never having to worry about it.

just for retards i'm gonna highlight the important part

>up to the amount of your capital gains plus $3,000

meaning you can deduct $3000 from gains you got through other means, e.g. you need to pay less taxes after your the salary of your dayjob

> how are you supposed to calculate the "gain"
protip: you don't. You let cointracking.info do that for you.

or bitcoin.tax

Serious question... Can I literally just cash out like 100k and decided to pay 0 taxes on it? I thought the risk of an audit is like less than 1%. Or does coinbase reporting to the IRS mean I have to pay it or its automatically an audit?

are you retarded

anything over 10k gets a suspicious activity report
they'll see it was from coinbase
coinbase already got fucking john doe supenoa'd

this must be someone LARP'ing as a literal mental defective

Well what if he bought back in in less than 31 days ? Wouldn't that BTC buy fail under the wash rule ?
Also was his gain long or short term ?
If his gain was long term he can't deduct the short term loss.

investopedia.com/articles/investing/062713/capital-losses-and-tax.asp

This so fucking much. You can easily say I traded 100$ worth of ETH for 100$ worth of shit coin. Even when they say "hurr your eth appreciated in value" they cant even prove that it did at time of trade. Exchanges hardly keep records of what a coin was worth at a specific time in the past. The IRS proving any of this is next to impossible. How will they know if I'm telling the truth or not on my trades? What if I make 500k this year in crypto and give them my full logs of trades? How are they going to decipher the absolute volume of trading, figure out what coin x was worth at time of buying it, then when I "sell" it for coin y, figure out what coin y was worth accurately, then what its worth when I "sell" it for coin z? Its impossible to accurately do this. They will give up and settle for End gain - initial investment for tax year.

wash rule doesn't apply to cryptos

>cointracking.info
So they are just using an average then I guess, or it's an industry best guess. Thanks. I am algo trading this year so doing my best to keep my basis recorded. I imagine 2018 2019 IRS and SEC will have to make some better rules.
One user said the accounting industry is working on a best practices for this year.

Nope. $3k applies to income after calculating net capital loss. I am referring to net loss.

Yes I'm in the US. I don't want to say the other countries. This should work in some small countries in Western Europe and I know for a fact it works in parts of East and Southeast Asia because their tax collecting is a fucking joke.

This.
The laws are reasonable for what they are (gold and other securities are treated the same way). Everyone screeching about it are like hippies.

If you cash out through any of the major fiat gateways and/or that money ever touches a US bank account your chance of an audit is 100%. All of that will get reported back to the Israeli Revenue Service.

You won't hear a thing about it for 4 years because you have 3 years to file amended returns and corrections. Meaning that if they audit you early you can simply fix your mistake and pay a small fine. They don't want just a small fine; they want to fuck you deeply. So the shekel police deliberately wait until after the period for you to file and amended return has passed then butfuck you to the tune of 5% compounding per month plus fees and penalties. You can easily rack up tens of thousands of dollars in penalties and fees in just a few months. Compound that for years before they send the shekelhounds after you.

nice larp faggot. maybe you should hire a tax attorney that knows that doing a like kind is deferring tax not not eliminating it. good luck with your tax bill retard.

>15-20
The real Veeky Forumsnessmen are looking at 28-40% federal + whatever your state wants. What have we received in exchange?

trustnodes.com/2018/01/30/us-state-senators-introduce-bill-exempting-tokens-securities-laws

That is to say, they never singled out cryptocurrencies for special treatment. They just classified them as a capital security, because that's essentially what they are now.
Now the NEETs realized that they actually have to do tax paperwork, so they're throwing a tantrum, and the libertarians are fanning the flames with fear-mongering to promote their agenda against IRS.

If you go fiat to crypto you don't pay taxes until you cash out or trade for another crypto.

>15%
lol poorfag

No, crypto gains are not taxable because this is just a videogame. Virtual currencies are not real. They cannot tax you for something that doesn't exist. Are they going to try and tax my tetris score next? If they try and enforce taxes on virtual currencies, they legitimize them and aknowledge they are real. It's a catch 22 for them, they can't enforce shit, their just trying to scare you. Don't listen to the tax trolls.

go some place else to cash out, it's not that hard

Oops, seems like I lost all my money in PoWHCoin. Better luck next time!

>ok, show us the transaction where you sent the coins and prove ownership of the wallet that sent them

>uhhhhhhh

>*gets jailed*

wew lad

Introducing: Tax Smart Contracts!!!

I will write smart contracts on Ethereum which allow you to send your money to them and then neither you nor I can touch your funds, but I will "own" them. You can verify they're legit by reading the smart contracts which are, of course, open source.

Then, to get your money back, you simply send 0.005 ETH ($5) or something to a different address, one which I own, and the other smart contract will be programmed to send back your funds immediately when my address receives the 0.005 ETH. All of this will be open source in the smart contract, of course.

You can do this on December 30th and cash out again on January 1rst. Congrats.

Did we just outjew the jews of the IRS?? Someone tell me the fucking flaw in my plan.

There are ways to avoid being tracked. Honestly quite simple, not going to reveal this in a honey pot thread though.

US can only do so much, as long as there is a country that allows fiat to be traded into crypto the US can't shut it down.

Kek some cucks will actually pay too