Explain to me why Bitcoin is not a zero sum game

GOLD is a zero sum game

On the other hand, if they withdraw, they kill the business.

If bitcoin wants to becomes the standard, big banks and companies need to use it like they use fiat.

And not because some early adopters want.

I'm not

>In order for someone to win (i.e. a Bitcoin) another person has to lose
just like real life

>pajeets
>neets
>teens
>degenerate gamblers
What's wrong about making money off of them

I know this self-help/motivational bitcoin speaker.
>1 bitcoin = 1 million bucks
Just because someone said that it could be 20 trillion mkt?

why do you guys believe in everything you hear or see without reasoning first?

congratulations, you've figured out how a ponzi scheme works

>Bitcoin does not create value, Miners can create value
What do you think "value" is?

>zero sum game = ponzi

Are you a woman? Why a mean of exchange should create value?

btc is a ponzi
bch is a deflationary currency (ualitatively superior to any currency in history) that has increasing adoption. This means the price goes up without anyone loosing until it reaches equilibrium with the worlds demand for currency. You are litterally just lucky to be alive for the 20 years out of 13.4 billion while the supply is being distributed.

Speculation redistributes wealth to those that can accurately estimate value but speculation is not exclusive to crypto

no

If company goes bankrupt, stockholders get paid

Cryptos + stocks aren't 0 sum games because "loose" in 0 sum game means to loose something.

When somebody buys ripple at $3 they assume the sellers risk, this is not loosing its a transfer of risk.

Its quite simple. Its a game. We all agree Bitcoin is worth a million dollars, and we repeat this until it becomes embedded in the public mind. Maybe someone comes along in the short term and sell some for less than a million, but at the end of the day, we're all richer by agreeing on the price of an asset we do nothing with except sell to other people.

Usually they don't, shareholders are pretty low on the list of people who get paid out

>he still uses bitcoin and cryptocurrencies interchangably

Bitcoin will be replaced eventually. Which means yes its a zero-sum game

You bought one bitcoin, what does that change in the world?
Bitcon does not affect the real world.
What is the real world use of bitcoin in USD?
You buy bitcoin you have risk asset on your portfolio.
>Buy bitcoin and after can't buy shit without paying fees.

Bitcoin is a zero-sum game until 2 milestones are achieved:
1 - massive marketcap (similar to gold's $8T). Once this is achieved, it means the marketcap is too huge to be easily manipulated by even the biggest whales.

> This milestone sets bitcoin in place as a viable store-of-value (which it is not right now).

2 - Mass adoption. If it reaches a point where everyone has some bitcoin (i.e. like how the story goes when the stock market bubble popped, the shoeshine boy was talking about it)

Once this happens, shops will start selling things in bitcoin, and price discovery of products in bitcoin will start to happen.

Once this happens, the exchange market will stop dictating bitcoin's value, as REAL liquidity now exists in the real world (purchasing power in most if not all stores).

Selling for USD will no longer be necessary, and bitcoin price will skyrocket (as people will buy up bitcoins on the exchanges if it ever falls below real-world purchasing power value), to use them in the real world. It's basically an infinite sized buy wall supporting the price at the current purchasing power agreed upon via price discovery in real stores (once they start pricing things in bitcoin).

> This can ONLY happen if mass adoption happens.

If neither of these 2 milestones get hit, then yes, this is just a greater-fool game.

Its a negative sum game.
Like poker with ante.

>Make profit
1 billion $1 notes fresh from the press

If it truly serves as a better medium of exchange than other choices like fiat or other coins, then it has inherent value

(Or if it promises to serve as a better medium of exchange once kinks are worked out)

>Can have real use in the real world.
it already does though, thats why Veeky Forums is here

>People buy only because of the Hype
not fuckin true, when i got in to this its cause it fuckin hate the banking system, that is value all i really need, when i buy the dip it s not just to buy some up cheap, but to prop up the market

everyone has a different idea, but your is uninformed

SAGED

it is, but get in and read to the end. it's going to be a massive transfer of wealth from regular folks to the wealthy.
the 2017 run up was people in the know accumulating - silicon valley, hedge funds, etc. also private individuals with money - all the insiders in the know. the plan was to approve institutional entry in January 2018, it didn't go through so a FUD campaign starts and dumping starts so more people who are in the know can buy in.

the rumor now is April 2018, and it looks like the regulatory environment is okay and sentiment is okay. everyone who has money has already accumulated. once April rolls around bitcoin ETFs are approved. later in the year, laws are drafted and banks, pension funds and insurance companies are able to buy. the price skyrockets - hedge funds and the wealthy can slowly dump their bags.

that's "institutional money", belongs to mom and pop, regular people, but controlled by corporations. nobody is really "hurt" because it's a giant corporation and the funds are pooled by millions of people. the insiders win with giant returns. bitcoin's price is stabilized and the bagholders are institutions. wall street will continue trading it with derivatives to make money, but swings won't be as dramatic as now.

genius, no?

and this is why 99.99% of the people ash out in FIAT once they are done with the shitcoin?

>WE LOVE CRYPTO ITS THE FUTURE
>FUCK YOU I WANT TO CHANGE MY COINS TO FIATA I JUST WANTED TO MAKE MONEY WITH CRYPTO

IF bitcoin becomes the standard then, there will be a few billionaire who "din dun nofing" for it. No biggie.
I think i will just have to trade in like everyone else, the purpose is to have a stable money non inflationary isn't it?

But that's one big if. and i tell you why.
Every bitcoin lamboland dream is
>muh bitcoin = 100,000 USD
>change muh bitcoin for House, Lambo and fiat
>be set for life and live on interest

And do you think all the fucking rich people on the planet will be happy about paying a premium for that?
I just don't buy it.

More likely they launch their own crypto.

I didn't say it wasn't speculation right now. People buying now are just aware of being true

This

I made money from it 3 years ago so I don't give a shit about the rest.

People got ripped off buy memecoin for houses and life savings.

Banks and pension funds won't buy bitcoin.
They like low risk investments. don't be delusional.
Bitcoin is not an investment, it's just an trade in assets.
At least you can make Gold into something and that demand also drives the price of gold.
What drives the bitcoin price in real life?

Just to expound on the 1st milestone, being a store-of-value...

The main appeal of crypto as a store-of-value is being unseizable and unfreezable.
That's a HUGE market, just check the Panama papers.

Thing is, BIG money won't place a considerable amount of their net worth in it UNLESS it was 100% reliable as a store-of-value.
They'll probably only place a very small % just to play speculator.

And if you have to forever worry if bitcoin fork #526357 will replace bitcoin, or if the newest privateraietherippleledger coin will replace bitcoin as the crypto leader, it is not a good enough store-of-value that the BIG money will place most of their % in it.

This is basically a world experiment whether we can create an unfreezable unseizable store-of-value (which is even better than offshore accounts or shell corporations, as you can send it effortlessly to anywhere in the world, and spend it anywhere as well if merchant adoption picks up, although you can cash it out anywhere in the world as well anyway).

You can't have it be replaced easily or else it will never be considered by the BIG money as safe to place a HUGE % in. This is basically the only shot we have in this social experiment.

And also, crypto made by centralized parties like corporations won't cut it, as it loses that feature (e.g. the IRS can ask them to do things only they can do with their authority).

Fuck the rich and fuck the banks, no one will use a bank crypto. They make billions ripping us off with fees and massive interest on loans, but my savings is only .001% interest?They can get fucked with the biggest sharpest stick. I'm banking with ethereum, the market is already controlled by bitcoin and ethereum anyways.

>make "profit"

>What drives the bitcoin price in real life?
price momentum/greater fool. cost of electricity to mine. so basically nothing.
but connect the dots, they're there. why else would people with lots of money buy it? what you don't understand is they want to put a bunch of 1s and 0s and give it to your parents as the ultimate end holder in their 401k. that's the joke.

>They like low risk investments. don't be delusional.

read that once it hits a giant market cap nobody will have the money to buy it. the price swings will be stabilized. it will literally become a store of value.

>And if you have to forever worry if bitcoin fork #526357 will replace bitcoin

Only summerfags still worry about shitcoins replacing bitcoin because they are fucking stupid.

exactly look at the art market as an example. picasso's painting is just a piece of paper, but it's 100 million dollars. bitcoin will be a means of exchange for ultra wealthy individuals for convenience

>until it becomes embedded in the public mind.

arent they the first? by law

Unironically asking, I dunno, but learned that shit in grad school IIRC

Thats a negatory ghost rider. There is a well of stocks the company holds to trade to keep it fluid. Thats not the case for coins.
This is why you need to actually do research before making random claims.

That because they rule, not you and me.

Well if the stock is a dividend paying one. Consertvative investors tend to look at the fundamental aspect of a stock before getting in.

That said, most people in biz that I noticed tends to lean more on the Technical side of things which is always 50/50 in many regard.

Bitcoin is a payment network, much like PayPal, MasterCard, Western Union. In order to gain access to the network you need to have Bitcoin, and so it's theoretically very easy to estimate a fair value for Bitcoin, you only need to figure out the actual usage (for instance how much Bitcoin is being spent on prostitutes, guns and ammo, drugs and online betting) as opposed to market speculation.

Buying Bitcoin for the sake of just HODL is literally the definition of stupidity, because HODL adds literally zero value to the network, because it's just a speculation that the usage of the network for real transactions will increase. But if you HODL you contribute to inflate the price of Bitcoin making the entry level higher by rising transaction costs making alternatives much more attractive to the black market.

I don't know what the future has in stall for Bitcoin. Right now, it's too expensive for its own good, but the creators of Bitcoin got greedy and cared more for personal gain than the actual future for the network.

Transaction rate and price is too high for it to function properly as a network, this will force out what actually creates value. It is a Catch 22. If you want to speculate in Bitcoin becoming a dominant alternative payment network you need to own Bitcoin, but in doing so you contribute to making the network less competitive ultimately causing it's decline in a Death spiral, all the way down to zero. Fascinating.

>people with lots of money
>early adopters who put few thousand bucks
>rip off normies

When declaring bankruptcy they usually get their debts restructured in a way that cucks the shareholders, so when they fold later it's the private equity injected late that gets paid out first. This is why I stopped dealing in penny stock bullshit, it's for suckers

>>>>>loosing
Killself

That's sadly just bullshit. For instance there's a limited amounts of shares in a company, that doesn't mean that the shares will always increase in value. The long term value of Bitcoin is dependant on one thing only and that is the actual usage of Bitcoin as a payment network. People HODL-ing aren't creating value, neiter is its limited supply, it's payment transactions that create value, because when you think of it, that is the only long term demand that is sustainable. Greater fools game always end because there's only so many greater fools to keep up demand.

Companies make profit. But why should shares of a company be worth anything?
If you own stocks you just want to sell them to someone for profit. Crypto currencies at least have a use case, but stocks are useless.

Its technically not a zero sum game because of things like trader and transaction fees. So the traders have to put in more money just to strike equilibrium with what traders (as a population) see in return, because money is constantly being siphoned off by miners and exchanges.

>Disinflation

Dont take financial advice frome someone who cant grasp his own language

>comparing picasso with memecoin

you're clueless

low IQ post

>comparing an useless piece of paper with some shitty picture on it which has value due author becoming a meme vs revolutionary technology that protects you against (((them)))

tell why me it's worth that much and why other expensive pieces of art are worth 60 million+ dollars. why is that new da vinci painting 450 million dollars

It is glass handed potatoes buy the top
Sell the bottom and take the loss

>frome

That includes you too faggot

I'm sure you'll keep telling yourself that allt he way down to a few hundred dollars which is the price that should reflect actual usage of Bitcoin as a payment network as opposed an instrument for greater fool's game (which always dies out because of limited supply of greater fools).

This, you can't do shit with stocks apart from trade them
Cryptos can be used as 'gas' for networks, burned so the supply decreases, staked for earnings, all sorts of things. Tokenized economy is the way forward

the "winning condition" is just keeping the network up in the first place in order to keep mining, silly boi

Bond holders are the first paid. Equity is last paid.

dunno bout u man but i rule

Of course you can. Stocks give the vote in company future and participation in profits.

If you dispute this then you might just as well say that votes in democracy are not doing anything. Yet even the most cynical politicians want to have enough of them.

It isn't a zero-sum game retards.

Consider the following:
Person A buys coin at $1
Person A sells coin to person B for $10
Market trades sideways forever and person B is able to sell the coin at $10, use it as a utility token or exchange for goods and services.

The gains are not equal to the losses, ergo it's not a zero sum game. Fuck this board is trash.

Yeah well technically the exchanges can collapse unless they are able to hoard enough money from the fees, market manipulation and x100 leverage liquidations.

are you really this retarded? if you are the major stockholder in a company you literally control it and can increase dividend, fire board members, for example a majority stockholder could force them to pay out all their cash reserve via a special dividend. if you buy all the outstanding stock you own the company. if you buy all bitcoins you have nothing

You are correct, but revolutionary is the TECH not bitcoin itself, I said that the technology has value.

And the meme author, Picasso started the cubism. Artists, Fashion designers and music producers,
They said what you will wear, listen and what color you will paint your house.
If you buy a shirt on a macys, its there because they want/allow you to wear that.

Da vinci, one of the most influential minds on earth, great advances in biology and engineering because of him, also a hell of a pinter.
Maybe it has more value do to its uniqueness, history and people willing to pay to see it (ie Mona Lisa on the Louvre)
Try taking your Bitcoin in to a wall and see if people go "is that a bitcoin, how amazing"

You guys were homeschooled by any chance?

>You are correct, but revolutionary is the TECH not bitcoin itself

2016 called

Looks like we have a Fields Medal over here.

>the exchanges can collapse

exchanges are unnecessary, they're only there because they provide trust

which is like a semi-dysfunctional look at the technology

ethereum solves exchanges, which is a full-retard dysfunctional look at the technology

If that's true, the tech is useless.

Life is a 0 sum game pajeet.

This chart doesn't make sense.

$100 dollars was worth $100,
Now $100 is worth a little over $3?
I understand that the dollar has lost value over time but this graph is not complete.

No shit Albert E.

Yes this is well documented its called greater fool theory

Just dont be the greatest fool

>sell to A for $1
>sells to B for $2
>sells to C for $3
>...
>total amount of money becomes -1/12
not zero sum, it's even worse

this

Explain to me why Apple stock is not a zero sum game.
Explain to me why USD is not a zero sum game.
Explain to me why any investment ever is not a zero sum game.

it implies it's a ponzi scheme

you could say the same about derivatives since they also are a zero sum game, but derivatives are based on an asset with fundamentals; therefore, not a ponzi

hello Veeky Forumsduck

every currency does that. it's called inflation and it's always happening no matter how much you don't like it.

muh "a coke used to cost 25 cents". i used to think everyone older than be was silly for thinking a coke could cost "only" 50 cents, but now i remember back when it was a dollar. now it's like a 1.25 minimum, some even go to 1.50

honestly buying a single coke for like a quarker would be really comfy. we should just wake up one day and reset it all back to ten cents buys a loaf of bread.

>bitcoin doesn't have fundamentals

you're fucking retarded if you think that.
bitcoin has an abstract real value at a point in time. its value at that point might not be its real value, it can be overvalued or undervalued. the only thing giving real value to bitcoins is the dark web where you actually need them to buy stuff.

you ignorants are just financing drug lords kek.

>honestly buying a single coke for like a quarker would be really comfy
You're neglecting the fact that average wage at that time was like $5000 instead of $40,000

(yes I know that wages haven't grown in purchasing power since 1970s but whatever)

Purchasing power of $3.64 in 2010 is $3.64, in 1900 that same $3.64 was basically the equivalent to $100 in 2010. What's not to understand?

that's all bullshit. the only people who care about arts cultural value are trust fund babies and people who majored in art history. same crowd. for people who control the money, the art market is for

>Fraud, money laundering, trafficking in cultural property, tax optimization, artificial increases of prices, confidentiality and anonymity

sounds a lot like bitcoin. basically it's to make a quick buck/move money around.

...

None of them are games to begin, they are "assets" that people can use to play games with. For fuck's sake people use logic.

That isn't an argument against bitcoin having fundamentals, care to try again?

for capital gains stocks yes, it's basically a zero sum game.

dividends don't pay much but stocks that do pay out are not zero sum.

Hardly anyone uses BTC anymore for darknet shit - it's a public ledger.

It is a zero sum game and the ones who will have to pay out will be the old and decrepit who don't know how to use a computer yet have all the wealth.