Most 1st world countries tax crypto-crypto trades...

>get your life frozen

Except since long term gains are over 1 year, any forged trades would by definition show that you did not pay tax the previous year.

>1st world countries tax crypto-crypto trad
Name those burger

The heart of the EU (and your ruler, if you are part of it), Germany, taxes crypto-crypto trades

>he didn't buy btc person to person or at an atm
>he doesn't proxy and VPN all his trades
>he leaves a trail

I don't have crypto-crypto tax regulations in my country yet, but I'm curious. What if I would say that I bought that amount of bitcoins a long time ago and I cannot show any proof couse it was on an exchange which has dissapeared, like mt gox?

Holy fuck that's two of them. Wow, we're all fucked.

Just hire an advisor before you want to cash out and move to any favourable EU country. You don't have to live there, just get a residance and bank account.

quads of truth. 99.99% of biz only have a few hundred or a thousand in crypto

Actually the funny thing is since gox got hacked and their trade DB dumped, you can recover your trade records if you have the email address you used. I did this.

however since it is a public ledger if you still have the private keys from the wallets that you used, you can show mathematically you owned those coins at a certain date.

You could either estimate the rpice you bought at or use a 0$ cost basis. since it went up SO much, a 0$ cost basis doesn't really cost you much of anything and is the safest bet since it's the most conservative

Lol doesn’t matter dude. What are gonna do, sell your btc for physical fiat?

Nothing, we're years away from them to be able to prove shit.

Just pay your income tax when you cash out and you're covered.

Other possible issues: I participated in an ICO, how to prove that?
I just sent them eth and got tokens back to that address, no record whatsoever

That is one option if you want to literally cash out

You would have to renounce US citizenship for this to work, residency in another country isn't enough. So you'd have to secure citizenship before doing this

Just report it as if it were a trade and keep the TXID for your records, and maybe a bit of info on what coin you were buying. If you have to argue about it it's cryptographically proven you made the transaction.

I notice any tax threads people get a little TOO upset about other anons paying their taxes on trade to trade. At this point I think any one who tries this hard to FUD is just a salty no coiner

this
just move outta there and take the key with you MUAHAHA

I'm talking the eurofag situation here. I can live in whichever EU state I like, if I can either work or provide for myself and not harm the society.

How is it a trade? What's the value, if it's not fixed in FIAT but eth oraz btc? There are different exchanges with possible arbitrage.
In my country you cannot report the value of that because there is no National Bank official exchange rate for crypto. Nor the transaction history for anonymous eth address is any kind of prove. It's just impossible due to regulations.

Do you think it's feasable to delay having to pay your taxes for 1-3 years if you haven't cashed anything out yet? I have a feeling the gains will outweigh interests, penalties, and also being it becoming long term gains.
Only asking because I didn't cash anything out at ATH and since the market crash brought my holdings to less than half of what it was in 2017, I can't pay taxes on that without liquidating my coins which are obviously more valuable long term.
Living in Canada but I hear the laws are similar if not the same basically.

be switzerland resident
declare crypto gains
pay swiss capital gains as an amateur investor (0%)
pay taxes on fortune (0.1% of networth)
shoot this down

If you underreport income by 25% or more worse than if you don't iirc. (at the minimum it extends the time for an audit) It's somewhat interesting of an idea though since i think interest caps at 25%

>Put in a cell with rapists and murderers because you didn't give the government their extortion money.

I hate this world.

it sucks but it's reality

Who will freeze my assets when i have them in cash? Are you retarded. Lmao

Since I day trade (Canada here), do I really have to go through every single trade I did and report that? Can't I just do my initial fiat -> btc and btc->fiat? I mean I must have something like 5000 trades over the last few months on every which exchange and alt coin. I've never even done taxes before it seems a little excessive to have every trade reported

How about just don’t pay and tell the gov you don’t but internet ponzi money.

This is why I exclusively trade USD->coin. Coin/coin exchanging is a fucking hassle unless your full-time job is trading. I'm just accumulating and holding anyway, so I won't have a taxable event till 2020+ at a low LT cap gains tax rate.

I don't know canadian tax law.

I used bitcoin.tax to calculate my taxes, it imports from the major good exchanges. shit exchanges like kucoin you'll need to enter manually unfortunately.

I ctrl+c ctrl+v'd my trades there into spreadsheets from their shitty website

They have different prisons for nonviolent offenders. If anything you'll be able to network with some Wall Street Jews while you're in the pokey.

die die die pig die come and take it copper

Can't believe all this buttons and numbers I clicked on in something that looks like computer game could get me in trouble

>i can't believe pressing buttons and numbers trading regular stocks means i owe money to the government

you guys do realize the reason this is all taxed is daytraders in the 90s, right

Here for Deutschland/Österreich

bmf.gv.at/steuern/kryptowaehrung_Besteuerung.html

bitcoinmag.de/bitcoin-handel/Bitcoin-Altcoin-steuererklaerung-steuer-steuerrecht-steuerfrei-veraeusserungsgeschaeft-Bitcoinrecht/a-106

Here we have the 1-year rule and so thankfully I knew that even before buying BTC this year and acted accordingly. Now I have 3k taxable gains and 400k tax free gains.

You can download the csv files with all your trading history on the exchanges and use
cointracking.com
for computing your taxable gains. For computation service over 200 trades you need to pay $200 though, although they take BTC so it's trivial to pay.

The germans i've talked with don't believe this law will stay around, what is your take user

Public transactions are one thing, and Coinbase will probably report everything to every government. But what about small chink exchanges, if I keep stuff there can't I just wait to declare it? I'd much rather have some gains from 2017 reported for 2018 considering my losses so far.

If I do everything legit I'll pay 1/2 of my current portfolio value in taxes for 2017.

You’re asking for tax help on /biz bro. Either call some pros or just wing it yourself. Don’t listen to any faggot on here

>But what about small chink exchanges, if I keep stuff there can't I just wait to declare it? I'd much rather have some gains from 2017 reported for 2018 considering my losses so far.
almost certainly, but then you'll be declaring that you didn't report gains and will have to pay interest, fines, risk audit, etc.

actually you already owe probably because Q4 2017 gains were due Jan 15th 2018 (estimated tax)

So are you saying that, if I go this route of holding my coins to pay taxes later, I shouldn't report this income at all since it's worse than underreporting?

Well I signed my dad up on Coinbase since my account got frozen back in 2014 and have been using his account to do purchases since last year. Basically I have been withdrawing my money from my bank account, putting it into his bank account, and buying coins that way.

How will we be taxed on this? Who will be taxed, me or my dad? Haven't sold anything yet

this, though there's nothing wrong with discussing on Veeky Forums before talking to a tax attorney. If you can't afford a tax attorney your gains don't matter because you're a small fry

NOTE : DO NOT TALK TO A CPA. CPA'S DO NOT HAVE LEGAL PRIVILEGE AND ***WILL*** RAT YOU OUT.

Not reporting income/gains from crypto is underreporting income..

No clue. Talk to an attorney. It could be far worse since it's transactions made in the name of another.

nobody has to know about your holdings. unless you are holding monero on an exchange you have nothing to worry about. Think about it.

I can well imagine that they create a EU wide law, but passing laws takes time and - at least I suppose - they won't be as crazy as to retroactively correct the taxes upwards. Not sure if such a thing have happened before, for already paid taxes.

I personally know people in the 500 million dollar range (people who participared in ETH, IOTA, NEO etc. ICO's, and several of them) and I looked it up and did the math and if BTC were to do another 100x, them we would have so many normies in the billion dollar range, and so many of the top 1000 richest people worldwide being crypto neets, that I just don't see that happen, and so I think the price explosion in 2017 will not repeat itself.
So good I was there and I'll go with my 400k.

I only made like an $1800 profit last year and I reported it but I haven't received my tax refund and my gf already did on Thursday even though we filed on the same day. Should I be worried?

>1800$ profit
nobody cares, but if you start making 18k you should.
if crypto goes up a lot, set some aside to pay your taxes and if you are very conservative (like me) -- amend your old return and pay a fine, then you never have to worry about it and are 100% safe in any audit situation. It will be worth it and would be peanuts compared to gains.

how much tax is payed on purchasing drugs on darknet? is that fifo or lifo?

Evade taxes by killing yourself.

are transaction fees counted as capital loss?

If you buy 1 BTC at 10,000 and it grows to 13,000 and you then tip a youtuber or gift your mother 1 BTC for her birthday, you spend it and will technically have to pay taxes on the 3000 gains you made. The logic is that you gifter her 3000 more than you otherwise (if you hadn't speculated and bought bitcoin) could have, so you made gains and those are taxed.
It doesn't matter where you spent it to, or who owns the receiving address, if it's not yours.

In Austria/Germany the default is FIFO but if you do it consistently, you can actually choose the gains evaluation.

just use cointracter.com, mate. And fees are just costs you pay/spend your BTC on.

I am ok with paying taxes but the precident being set for coin to coin transactions cannot be allowed. We have to fight this even if it means potential jail time and having to deal with high fines. We cannot allow them to enforce a rule where digital goods can be taxed without ever being realized gains.

They will use this power to attack and censor jail anyone they want who is involved with crypto. It will also mean that all digital assets will be hit by this same law. Video games, social media you name it.

We have to fight this. The law has to be changed back to what it was where you pay only when you cash out. Otherwise simply playing an MMO will result in having to pay massive fines. Using social media that has crypto to say hate speech will be used to put you in jail.

This is a power play and it is going to be used to destroy not only crypto but the ability to build any kind of value on anything other than fiat.

The first line of defense against this will be for us to take a strong look at proof of stake style wallet systems. For example Steemit has a Steem power system that is currently not covered under the current tax law. ETH will also be doing a proof of stake style system.

Proof of stake systems mean trading your coins in for the promise to be able to create no coins at a later time. Steem power is one of the only examples of this I have seen. Steem power is not a cryptocurrency and cannot be taxed.

youre all idiots. If you havent invested or are looking to invest more do so under a self directed Roth IRA. you pay 25% taxes up front but all earnings are tax free. If that hasnt been how you entered crytpo over the last few years just kill yourself. Im about to roll almost 1M into traditional market cap mutuals with all those juicy gains...probably will retire at 45.

can we expect darknet drug dealers to start sending 1099s soon?

best part about this "hack" is its 100% legit. Pay the 150 bucks for 15 minutes of a expat tax attorney.

>when you cash out anything over 10k (and yes splitting it up will not work dipshit, it's called structuring) you get a SAR filed on you,
No you don't asshole. SAR is only for cash deposits.

We NEED to begin threads to talk about tax avoidance. Coins that offer special systems that transform a coin or skirt tax laws will be highly valued.

>I am ok with paying taxes but the precident being set for coin to coin transactions cannot be allowed
This precedent was set in the 90s with stock trading.

Fighting it is a matter of game theory. I'm not going to risk fines or jail. I'll let other people do that. Especially as many are stupid enough to think they won't be caught.

> (You)
>call some pros
Asking for help about obviously illegal tax evasion though, not sure who to call.

>I'm not going to risk fines or jail. I'll let other people do that.
that's my life philosophy, although, as I mentioned before I'm pretty comfy for now

self directed roth IRA sounds interesting. But are you saying you're cashing most or all of your crypto gains out and putting them into the regular stock market?

>This precedent was set in the 90s with stock trading.

No it wasnt. There is a big difference now. Stocks cannot be traded for stocks directly. Every time you move in the stock market you actually cash out after every single transaction. So it works out pretty well.

Crypto to crypto is a fundementally different situation where no money is ever actually generated and they wrote the law to PRETEND THAT WHATEVER THEY THINK IS WHAT YOU MADE WAS WHAT YOU MADE. They can say anything they want at that part because its 100% subjective to say what your actual profits were. If they feel like it they can say the ATH of that week is what you made.

It also brings ALL digital assets under the same scrutiny. THIS CANNOT BE ALLOWED.

I just did a little googling. It looks like you set up the IRA where bitcoin is the investment so you don't need to fuck with stocks. Can someone with more knowledge confirm?

Not really, I mean it's my money, my cash. It's done in the name of another, but it's just like me giving them money, and them going out and buying something for me.

If we sell, it should be him selling, right? Then that would be taxed just like normal as if he had the gains, just like if I gave someone money and they bought something, they're taxed on it.

If I sold and I made the money, that would be different, but at the same time, it's basically like someone giving me coins for free and me selling them, so I should just be taxed on them like normal, right?

So basically whatever happens, even if you don't have the records, just pay whatever taxes are owed (you can say you got the coins for free and be taxed the highest amount, whatever) and you'll be fine

Also I'm going to guess that in a self directed roth IRA you can't make crypto-crypto transactions, which fucks it over since you're stuck making a super long term gamble.

>you can say you got the coins for free and be taxed the highest amount, whatever) and you'll be fine
that's more expensive than reporting though

And then you can't get the IRA funds until what, 20 years?

yeah also fuck that

i'll stick with holding and taking long term capital gains

thank god i stopped day trading before the massive bullrun

cointracking.info/

bitcoin.tax/signup

/thread

You sure about that? If you say you got them for free a few years back, could you just file an amendment on your taxes and pay long term gains taxes rather than have to deal with short term gains taxes?

wrong...youre free to trade as you want same as youre free to reallocate your holdings in a roth IRA

Its good that you shouldnt be reporting it anyway. The IRS cannot be allowed to use arbitrary rules to tax people whatever they want. They cannot be allowed to jail or fine people for breaking completely subjective rules.

DO NOT ALLOW THIS! The IRS WILL ABUSE THIS POWER!

I can't see this mentality take on, because if you are going to argue from such an autonomous ideological frame, then why do you consider crypto-crypto trades not as realized gains? You realize you imply that fiat is the currency to measure gains by? If you take your thought to the end, then trading cryptos is making raw gains, and it should be independent of cashing out to fiat.

>You would have to renounce US citizenship for this to work, residency in another country isn't enough. So you'd have to secure citizenship before doing this
What if you don't secure citizenship somewhere else?

Interesting. If I wasn't moving from the US to Germany where I can get 0% long term capital gains tax i'd consider it

What's ridiculous about all this is there is actually no real LAWS on how to handle crypto, it's all the IRS making shit up as they go, yet other agencies of the federal government have completely contradictory guidelines on what Bitcoin is. Some think its a commodity, others treat it like a security.

then you're a stateless citizen.. not a good place to be

Exactly this. They can't tax you unless you cash out. And the only people who should cash out are those that have 500K in their wallets. Looks like nobody wants to pay any taxes at all. I don't mind it if I get 60-70% of the cash out amount. That's like 350k.

If you got shitcoins, you can hope they moon.

>If you got shitcoins, you can hope they moon.
or harvest them for capital losses

One question I do have. How do you think taxes will work for an ETH game? I played EtherDungeon a lot to pass the time during the crash. I have almost 400 txns on my gaming wallet as a result. Am I fucked?

Why? I am genuinly curious

You won't be taxed 100% of the sold coins, maybe 33% at the worst, right?

>can't see this mentality take on, because if you are going to argue from such an autonomous ideological frame, then why do you consider crypto-crypto trades not as realized gains?

Because if there was no actual USD involved then its 100% subjective how much was made. What value was used? You can pick any exchange you want as a way to define what the USD value was? What about time frame? Time frame can be fudged either way. They might suddenly say ATH for the Korean exchange for the day was the actual value to prevent you from taking political donations.

They can take anyone they want and make up anything they want because there is no actual hard evidence of what the correct value was. They can fuck people from running for office. They can attack people who report news on social media. They can use this method to John Gotti anyone they want.

> You realize you imply that fiat is the currency to measure gains by?

Yep but its subjective when talking about assets. Was it worth 800 USD or 1000 USD that day? Your guess is as good as mine! Fuck it this chart for the korean exchange says it had a ATH of 1200 that day. Lets make sure to tax based on that to see if we can hobble the next election cycle.

Either we outlaw crypto to crypto transactions so its like stocks. Which is basically the end result of this or dont allow the precident at all. This is utterly impossible and completely subjective and it gives the IRS far too much power. Everyone who holds crypto is a potential Gotti the moment we allow this to happen.

> If you take your thought to the end, then trading cryptos is making raw gains, and it should be independent of cashing out to fiat.

No, because Fiat is the only time when taxes should come into play for digital assets. Once we allow this precedent to be set then its not a stretch to apply the same logic to all digital goods. The IRS will be able to tax social media and video games. This is an attempt to control the narrative online. This is a chance for the IRS to fully control every aspect of the internet.

We will be paying taxes to own high valued twitter accounts. We will be paying taxes for everything on the internet. Because everything is going to be using the blockchain and crypto soon. All Alt media outside of maybe Veeky Forums will be fully under the gun of the government if we allow this to happen.

DO NOT ALLOW THE IRS TO DO THIS. WE HAVE TO FIGHT THIS!!! THIS IS NOT A DRILL!!! FIGHT THEM ON THIS!!

Never cash out

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statelessness

Lmao at the IRS pretending like they can do anything. Fuck off OP.

Le gubbermint can't even afford a proper UI for an emergency system in Hawaii, you think they have money to trace every single crypto to crypto trade that you made on a website based in fucking Hong Kong? "B-but they might close your (((bank account))) if you get audited." Again, fuck off OP, and saged

One method is for us to start asking devs to look into ways to modify wallets so that you are able to do things similar to what Steemit does with steem power.

If you look at what Steem power is. Steem power is value that is stored on your steemit wallet that goes up when you destroy steem coins.

This value determines how powerful your upvotes are which allows you to mine more steem. Its closer to Minds.com points that give you benefits. Or Microsoft points for buying video games. If you look over the current tax paper Steem power is not tradable, has no innate value, is not on exchanges.

As it stands right now, the ability to own staking power is not taxed yet. If they change the rules then we will have to change the system again to update around it.

>need
Huh?

Hold up. Why are you using political runs to make example of crypto argument? Most of us give a shit less who gets political donations or even vote for any office. Give us a different example for someone who lives in the basement and will get fucked by the IRS different in the US.

coins generated from staking or passively are income taxed at the fiat rate at which you receive the coin. it's no different than mining.

does mommy pay your grocery, electric bill and rent/property tax?

Sounds like a slipper slope argument.

>be OP
>25 posts shilling taxes
Your time will come.