By way of background, I'm a postdoctoral research fellow at Harvard developing novel neural network architectures and training methods primarily for computational medical imaging.
Deep Brain Chain aims to distribute neural network training over computers worldwide. However, one the biggest problems in distributing training, whether over multiple GPUs or multiple computers, is communication bandwidth. Even when training is done on a single machine (let's call this Distribution Level 0), data needs to be transferred between the CPU to the GPUs to transfer training data and iterative gradient updates. If your model is reasonably big (for example, I regularly work with ~10GB models), that communication is happening after each training batch and is often the main bottleneck for training time. PCIe 3.0 x16 supports ~16 GB/s max transfer rates which means I'm waiting about one second each iteration JUST for data transfer... this transfer delay is one of the primary reasons why you might hear deep learning models taking days/weeks/months to train. This is such a big problem that NVIDIA has developed a specialized I/O bus called NVLINK (which will improve those speeds 5-10x but is only currently implemented on IBM Power systems).
Parallelizing this training over multiple computers (Distribution Level 1) typically occurs in a local cluster or a cloud system that is intraconnected with 10-100 Gbit/s ethernet (AWS is 25 Gbit, or about 3GB/s). Even though you're adding more computers, this 3-5x speed transfer loss, in addition to algorithmic losses due to imperfect parallelization and asynchronous updating etc (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amdahl's_law), results in a poorly-scaled system, which is a widely-studied issue in the research community (e.g. arxiv.org/pdf/1609.06870.pdf). You'll still get gains better than single-machine, but they won't be linear (10 machines doesn't equal 10x compute speed), and it'll be worse the slower your transfer bandwidth is.
Going from Distribution Level 1 to Level 2 - distributing this to the masses a la Deep Brain Chain (or some similar system) would further slow down the training to nearly incomprehensible levels, in my estimation. Assuming each computer is equipped with 100 Mbit/s ethernet both upload and download (which is a VERY generous assumption: speedtest.net/reports/united-states/), that's still > 100x slower than cluster transfer rates, and >1000x slower than a single machine implementation. Also, with an institutional cluster, the machine hardware (CPU, RAM, etc...) can be controlled to be relatively similar, which makes the training more predictable and thus parallelization more efficient. However, a large set of random computers across the internet would result in potentially wildly inhomogeneous computation speeds with much less predictable collective behavior, introducing further algorithmic slowdowns. In their whitepaper they do note that they're aiming to have some advanced method of load-balancing (which wasn't pointed to solve this problem, just utilizing idle nodes), so perhaps in the future they can limit some of these losses - but even then you're still stuck with the lower bandwidth speeds that would bring training to a crawl.
If you have any thoughts on this, or have seen any (big or small) mistakes here please let me know. For example, there may be training algorithms I'm unaware of that somehow sidestep this (although I'm quite confident that what I've been describing is true for the ubiquitous stochastic gradient descent and their variations, which is like what 99% of what people use for NN training). I don't want to spread misinformation, but I just can't see how they'll get around these big issues. I'm also disheartened that these issues weren't mentioned at all in the white paper, as these are very well-known limitations of distributed training.
Jack Allen
well one thing I was thinking is that there will be a lot of 'low level' AI out there thanks to IoT applications, so maybe some of these shitty AI tokens are good for companies who need to fill smaller gaps, rather than dedicated centers for AI advancement/research
Nathan Smith
I hope the DBC team can be as transparent as Ethereum is about the reality of their scaling problems, and be working diligently to solve them. I like the vision of DBC, but real value relies on real execution.
Everything I've described above applies to distributed training, where training a NN model requires multiple computers updating each other on training iteration results. If the scope of their training/network model is small enough and doesn't need computers talking to each other then they might be okay. However, everything in their white paper points to large, enterprise-scale datasets and large complex models.
The CEO responded to my original post via telegram. reddit.com/r/cryptocurrency/comments/7od7vg/_/ds9ecpy?context=1000 If I understand him correctly, it seems like their distribution strategy is to parallelize the training of one model over different training hyperparameters. So that indeed can be done with current hardware (like he implied, it would only be limited to bigger rigs) and bandwidth limitations. However, it's a letdown because they're not making a true distributed NN training system - parallelizing hyperparameter search is a pretty narrow offering, and is quite far from the vision they seemed to promote in their marketing which is in their own words a "decentralized neural network." This wouldn't be able to provide larger models spanning multiple nodes, or accelerating training by splitting up datasets, which are the typical benefits of distributed training. In all fairness though, searching for optimal hyperparameters is indeed an important factor of training, so there is some value there... Just not as much as it seemed they were marketing.
Andrew Stewart
Unfortunately, this is probably too high level discussions for the brainlets and pajeets in Veeky Forums
Liam Davis
lmaoing at your life OP
Andrew Adams
just tell me if I should buy or not
Cooper Jackson
this, you can't expect people to read all this
Landon Ward
Nobody is going to read even 10% of that. This isn't reddit, fag
Justin Morgan
I’m at masters student researching deep learning, always got a good kek out of watching retards buy this. Kudos for being nice enough to warn people.
Anthony Martinez
Its incredibly scary how much wealth is being thrown around without "investors" having any clue what they're doing.
Pulling off a scam last year would have been a piece of cake.
Josiah Stewart
so you are telling me that people are actually reading something else apart from the name of the coin?
Leo Gonzalez
Stay away from AI blockchain bullshit.
Carson Peterson
Didn't buy into this shitcoin to begin with buit still an nteresting read, thanks OP.
Isaiah Jackson
lmao fucking nerds
Jaxon Campbell
Nice copy pasta
Kevin Young
I also count chink/no chink ratio in the devs team
Michael Rivera
These 'AI' coins are for flipping not investing. Matrix AI Network is next. It has all the buzzwords.
Eli Allen
I wouldn't touch anything that tries to utilize blockchain mining infrastructure with massively distributed high level computation/AI.
Logan Carter
As long as my /bizbros/ know this. But I know some of them don't.
James Turner
Stahp, it's already dead
Brayden Scott
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this is the only coin going down while most other coins are doing ok or even better. DBC is a SCAM COIN
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Isaac Hernandez
why does dropping coin price make it a scam coin and why is your life so pathetic that you're making posts like this one
Parker Long
DBC
Jaxson Scott
FUCK U AND
SCAM COIN
DBC
Jose Thomas
Fuck out of my thread, pajeet
Leo Fisher
...
Logan Perez
lol what a fuckin nerd
Connor Reyes
I'm not ever selling my DBC. You know why? I want it to stand there as a warning in my blockfolio. Like the enemy spiked on a pike that is mounted on the walls, I want to look at it each and every morning.
I want to feel the punch in my gut when I look at my NEO stack breaking through 1000$, and this shit still hovers around 0.01$. I want to kick myself when my LINK stack blows past 100$ to see that this pathetic DBC stack of mine is still in there, flaining around as its slowly dying and withering away. It shall serve as a reminder never to FOMO into stuff you don't know enough about yet, and it should be a grim reminer not to be blinded by optimism and wishful thinking.
Mason James
I invested in DBC at around $0.10, and I shilled this motherfucking coin like crazy. I shilled it harder than anyone else on this board, even harder than that insufferable tripfag. I created multiple threads, used 4+ unique IPs to shill it day in and day out. I told everyone it would take off after the Hyoubi listing. I got out at about $0.53 and every day I love laughing at the people I tricked to buy at the ATH. I remember how I told them it will easily be over a dollar after getting listed on Hyoubi and $10 by Feb. It makes me feel good inside.
>created multiple threads created multiple thread daily*
Jeremiah Adams
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Samuel Wood
imagine believing this... ahahahaha
Jackson Nguyen
If Veeky Forums is fudding this hard by posting month old reddit posts about DBC you know it's about to moon.
Jace Roberts
enjoy the karmic consequences faggot
Landon Thompson
Scamming people makes you feel good on the inside? No wonder the white race is failing. At least the 3rd worlders who scam have to do it because they don't have any opportunities.
Xavier Martinez
what is this absurd level of FUD jesus fucking christ
Charles Hernandez
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Robert Johnson
im going to make sure this piece of shit goes to 0000
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Austin Gonzalez
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Jayden Mitchell
...
Cameron Gomez
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Blake Morgan
I'm trying to save any one who is thinking about buying Deep Brain Chain DBC
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Ethan Scott
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Nicholas Hughes
If this is not a buy signal, I don't know what is
Aaron Wright
What about the possibility of creating an AI which hijacks all resources just for the sake of cryptocurrency?
Dominic Turner
The problem is synchronizing the massively distributed resources. Its extremely inefficient.
If you've studied any computer architecture, you know the slowdown rates between
Jack Wright
Another for the lols
Xavier Wood
Last one, couldn't help myself
Joshua Cruz
This copypasta is fucking autistic. I don't know what the fuck he's talking about with data having to be transfered from CPU to GPU. You can use both independently. This project never claimed to reduce computational times, even though with enough users that might be the case. The aim was to increase accessibility and reduce costs of performing deep learning.
Also, there are a few universitie that already use distributed computing to perform Protein Folding. folding.stanford.edu I cant remember the other ones off the top of my head.
Mason Adams
Layman's term Einstein, explain it as if we don't have formal background knowledge of computers. And just a simple summary, not everyone wants sift through long winded expositions like this.
Sebastian Lopez
I'm like 99% sure this is copy pasted from a reddit post a few weeks ago. Iirc that guy even said later that's it's better than he initially thought.
Asher Cruz
In a distributed system, doesn't it make more sense to have multiple iterations running at the same time? So say you have 10 computers, you could have 5 batching one iteration and the other 5 batching a different one entirely. That way you could scale more effectively. You could chunk computers together by location as well.
Isaiah Gonzalez
this retarded post is probably single handedly the reason why so many people think this is "a scam"
Angel Myers
Wow thanks js sold all my DBC at a fat loss. Thanks bizbros
Evan Gonzalez
This is copy pasted from a Reddit post a little while ago. I remember reading it. Nevertheless, point stands - DBC is vapourware. Bachelor’s and Master’s in ML here and this is very clearly a scheme for taking advantage of those who don’t know anything about computer science but are drawn by how ‘hot’ terms like deep learning are now.
If you have any kind of background in ML, read the whitepaper. There’s absolutely no details of the kind of neural networks or algorithms they intend to facilitate. The ‘reward function’ is formulated using game theory, maybe just to trick those with some knowledge of economics into thinking it’s legit. The whole thing’s like a schematic of a car with a great big blank space where the engine should be.
Camden Collins
See
Benjamin Foster
I'm an EE and work with computer vision almost exclusively, and I love that someone is here laying down hard facts instead of LARPing. Your grammar, language, field-specific knowledge and breakdown into easily digestible sentences is very appreciated. Thanks for taking the time to post
Charles Murphy
Now do an analysis of Oyster Pearl. And give me a nice story of why it is a shitcoin
Jeremiah Ross
Didn't Neo council invest 1 mil into DBC. Not saying they weren't wrong but they don't seem like they would be backing chink scams
Christian Thompson
look at this poster, do you think he's really smart enough to realize any of this
Ryan Adams
To everyone saying "copypasta," I published this on Reddit and made a few small updates to my Reddit edits.
To everyone who is bitching and moaning and spamming this thread. Please actually dispute something I've said if you want anyone to take you seriously.
They aren't going to reduce computational costs, they're just jumping on the blockchain hype train (which nobody understands) and combining it with ML (which nobody understands).
It is pointless to try and "decentralize" the training algorithm for neural nets that could be done more efficiently in a data-center.
>I don't know what the fuck he's talking about with data having to be transfered from CPU to GPU.
Just a simple example using the two most powerful computational/processing units in a server/computer. Just look at if you don't understand how hardware works.
Sadly not enough time in the day to analyze every shitcoin. I'm the .01% that reads the whitepaper and does real research into the team. Its scary how much dumb money is in crypto right now.
Colton Reyes
So I shouldn't fear Skynet?
Ryder Lee
Would you already fuck off and let us lose our money? When are fags like you going to realize that NOTHING NEEDS a blockchain. I dont care how smart you are but I guess you havent realized mankind has flourished all the way up to 2009 and will continue to do so with or without blockchain.
Easton Parker
>has been in crypto >idiot
Jordan Cruz
The comment is insane. How do you think computers work? Input/output is handled by the operating system. The operating system runs on the CPU. If instructions are to be sent to the GPU (or any piece of hardware), they by necessity have to come from the CPU.
Folding@home from Stanford works because people are donating their computing power. The inefficiency of distributed computing is unimportant because cost is not a factor. If people sold their computing power instead, it would be far more cost-efficient for Stanford just to buy more computing clusters.
It’s really fucking hard to admit when a coin you own is shit. I’ll admit to having invested in both XRP and TRX and going through the slow realisation that I was wrong. I would find every reason to dismiss the perfectly valid criticisms I heard. You’ll probably find a way to dismiss this comment, but I hope it serves as a deterrent to those considering investing.
Noah Powell
Very interesting read, thanks OP
Isaac Jackson
You heard it folks. Time to buy
Ethan Thompson
>actual buying starts >you done pissed off the whales
OP and other ML folks on this thread are right. Like most other "AI" coins, it's all an attempt to play buzzword bingo in order to get more $$$.
Getting really fucking of this bullshit ridden world.
Caleb Walker
Hahahaha nice try user, you're stuck with those bags for at LEAST another 6 months. Try again next time.
Elijah Kelly
>user thinks I have dbc bags
Hudson Miller
Thanks for writing this out. I’ve been warning people about this shit coin for months but never put in the effort to write a post with all the detail. (I’m also in Boston but just a PhD student) The whole project is a mediocre idea that doesn’t solve a real problem and is being marketed to people who think they are “tech savvy” by throwing a bunch of exciting buzzwords together.
Also, go watch the video on their website because it’s hilariously bad Engrish.
Wyatt Parker
Whats the reason for this gay ass fud you nigger op. Anything youre hiding or are you actually trying to pretend like you know how crypto works
Its going up. Like it or not. Its still low because it hasnt gotten up yet. As simple as that. You can go blindy buy any coin that has 1% use and you will have gains month later on
Ethan Hernandez
Are there ANY AI memecoins that are worth anything?
Eli Howard
I could care less what this shitcoin does. It might go to the moon if you guys can keep shilling your bags. It might not.
I'm here to talk about the tech behind this coin's "business"... I realize most of you are here for quick flips and don't give a fuck if you're just handing around bags, as long as your "wealth" is growing and you pass your bag before it becomes heavy.
But in my opinion, bullshit blockchain money-grabs are doing a lot of damage. Not just for crypto's image, market cap, adoption, etc., but because some uneducated kid is eventually going to end up holding worthless coins.
Isaiah Walker
I'm not here to FUD, shill, or offer alternatives. I'm just here to educate.
For what its worth, there ARE some incredibly cool use cases for AI + blockchain. If you're interested, check out Siraj's video youtube.com/watch?v=5Tr13l0O1Ws
Charles Allen
It may not be necessary, true, but if it works, it will still go to the moon and beyond. You don't understand how this fucking world works if you think something has to be absolutely necessary in order to make million $s off of it. Fuck, most of the stuff we produce is useless shit.
This coin is something that has an actual usecase behind it, unlike 95% of other random forks of already established coins that are literally nothing more than currencies, and will wither and die away eventually.
Brody Sanchez
Fuck you desu. I went in early too so I only lost $30 on this shitcoin when I sold yesterday, but you're still a nigger. We could've had a dream
Jaxon Moore
Link your harvard profile or else youre a dumb larping fag.
Anthony Evans
You yourself I suppose have never sold shitcoins before? If you have your a hypocrite with zero cridentials.
Justin Carter
Of course, you are right. But let's not split hairs. Blockchain is a data structure that will be integrated into just about everything if the opportunity cost/trade-off is good enough. But the practice of creating a token for everything and overfunding ICOs with no working product is not going to continue forever.
Josiah Jackson
PhD working in Neural Nets here.
Agree firmly on all points. Never will I buy an AI token.
Ryder Scott
All the sudden 5-10% of Veeky Forums has PhDs in advanced machine learning. Hmmmmmm.
John Collins
Bump for interest.
William Bailey
What do you still want to know?
Jayden Garcia
Always do the opposite of what Veeky Forums says.
Colton Martin
Bump for FUD?
I thought we all decided to stop caring if these coins were shit or not
Chase Russell
I am not an AI fag but God damn OP, read what dbc is trying to do. It's pretty clearly explained. A decentralized neural network. Many small businesses do not have money to buy expensive GPU, and many companies have GPU sitting idle. So on the Blockchain these GPUs can provide computational requirements for smaller business. And these companies can also keep their GPUs. Sounds like they redistributing the AI computing requirements/machines to users specified needs and requirements.
Harvard faggot can't read. Smd.
The large-scale data parallel training problem, however, is not what the deep brain chain intends to solve. To say, it is not for the same user to do the remote distributed computing where the speed is reduced significantly. The first and foremost the deep brain chain tackles with is to reduce the high-performance machine computing power costs and data privacy. In other words, how to lower the cost of neural network training and neural network computing. When an AI product has a large number of users it needs a lot of high-performance machines to meet the computing requirements, deep brain chain can execute distributed computing based on the user's specific circumstances and it is for different users. The DBC project is for global AI computing resource sharing and resource scheduling because many small businesses do not have the money to buy expensive GPU servers but many companies have a large number of GPU servers which are idle. Scheduling global resources and increasing the utilization efficiency of resources are of the positive significance. We also consider optimizing the distributed AI calculation engine and working with the underlying neural network chip makers. However, our focus is still on reducing AI business computing costs, rather than enhance the AI model of any single business model training.
Hudson Reyes
OP, what are you doing on /biz.? You know 99% of these pathetic brainlets can't even comprehend what you wrote?
Most are just going to argue senselessly with you or create a straw man/red herring argument because its the best they can do.
You've absolutely knocked this one out of the park though. I'd say this is nearly Assblaster level material and execution.
Grab a Trip Code so next time we'll know to trust you.
Anthony Powell
More like the Harvard faggot can't comprehend what DBC is trying to do. I have no clue what the op faggot said, but my post is what the CEO mentioned in his past attempt to FUD this project.
Benjamin Campbell
>Many small businesses do not have money to buy expensive GPU, and many companies have GPU sitting idle.
Holy shit this is starting to get comical. Please tell me more about the last time a small business decided to start utilizing advanced machine learning techniques
