Bitcoin is a form of lottery and the smartest of us know this already. They're called market owners

>how does it feel not understanding shit about Bitcoin?

How does it feel to realize Bitcoin critique comes from people who understand it the best?

Do you honestly believe "fud" comes from not understanding SATOSHI'S HOLY VISION OF FREEDUMS?

no brainlet, they aren't backed by them. there's nothing stopping the stock of a company that 100x's its profits to dump. only the fact that people will speculate that they'll be able to sell the stock of successful companies for more than they bought them when they weren't as obviously successful.
Any amount of stock that doesn't give you decisive power in a company has an intrinsic value of 0, unless the company pays dividends (amazon, apple, berkshire, dell, facebook, amd, etc... don't!), and the dividends are pure speculation as well since

1. they're generally insignificant compared to the size of investment
2. there's no guarantee how long there'll be a leadership that keeps it coming. it's speculation how long they'll keep coming.
90% of assets (stocks, gold, etc) have insignificant intrinsic value compared to their speculative value. bitcoin is the very abstraction of an asset. its intrinsic value comes from how well known it is, and how easy it is to transfer, store and generally and do everything you'd want to to with an assert.

Yes, you proved that the stock market is shit.
So is BTC but even more so.

>How does it feel to realize Bitcoin critique comes from people who understand it the best?

What? From whom?

stocks cover well over 70 trillion USD of wealth. and the overall wealth stored in assets if def. over 0.5 quadrillion, could be over 1.

all assets have speculative value. remember the housing bubble? the price of a penthouse in manhattan directly relates to the speculative value of the stock market

>Any amount of stock that doesn't give you decisive power in a company has an intrinsic value of 0
what is book value

1. it's generally insignificant compared to the actual value
2. there's no guarantee you'll ever be able to sell your stock for its book value. it's still speculation.

1. still not zero
2. you don't have to sell it at book value, the SEC handles bankruptcy to give shareholders their claims on the assets. again, not zero

This is quite possibly one of the most moronic things I've ever read.

1. fine. i should have said close to 0, as i did everywhere else.
2. if the company doesn't go bankrupt / they are not getting liquidated it's still only speculation that keeps the price of their stock above book value.

the founder could just keep 75% of the stock and sell you 25%. people realize there's nothing you can do with that 25% and not buy it from you. at that point the stock-valuation of the company is $0, regardless of how much profit it generates.

this scenario isn't any more unfeasible than bitcoin going to 0, lol.

i love reddit

If you own 25% than you are entitled to 75% of the company's gains.

Very few companies have book values anywhere close to zero. Most company's value is part speculation and part fundamentals. If a company has assets and a profitable business plan, it has real value and not speculation.

>If you own 25% than you are entitled to 75% of the company's gains.
lolwut?

Don't you need a stockholder's meeting for this to happen? Even then, if it's not on the agenda for the meeting, profits won't be shared at 75%. It's up to the CEO and the shareholders at the meeting to decide if the company shells out dividends or not.

something like 85% of all stocks have a P/B ratio greater than 1, it isn't really speculation.
speculation would be buying the 15% sub 1.0 ratio stocks hoping they are undervalued by mistake or temporarily.

HAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHA fucking brainlet KYS

It's time to stop posting if you're that retarded about how stocks work.

Typo there. If you own 25% than you are entitled to 25% of the company's gains.

>If you own 25% than you are entitled to 75% of the company's gains.

lol. no. you're not entitled to whatever the leadership wants to give you.

>Very few companies have book values anywhere close to zero.

ugh. clinging on words still. fine. not 0, insignificant compared to real value. amazon has a book value per share of $50, and an actual price of $1500.

BUT if the company starts failing and slowly march toward bankruptcy , the book value will likely decrease much further by the time it's actually liquidated and you're guaranteed to get it. people don't buy the stock based on its book value, it's just a phenomenon to make retards like you believe they have something of value beside speculation.

>If a company has assets and a profitable business plan

then it's not getting liquidated and has a value based on speculation exclusively still, lol.

it has real value, but that real value only reflects in stocks that give one decisive power. any amount that doesn't has no reflection on the value, therefore 99.999% of public stock investors hold stocks of insignificant intrinsic value

it's you who should look up how stocks work because you very clearly do not understand even the basics.

Amazon is a tech company and most of their value comes from intangible assets. This is why there is such a huge difference between the book value and stock value.

Leadership does not have control over how much of a company's gain that you receive. If you own 25%, 25% of the gains are yours regardless of how or when those gains are distributed.

A company's value is based of fundamentals. Companies produce something of value and can sell these things to customers. By definition, they have real value.

You're retarded.

jesus fuck retard. YES companies do have real value. their STOCKS (of amounts that do not give decisive power..) do not.
how much of amazon's gains were paid out to their public investors, who held $500,000 worth of amazon stocks in 2017? $0. that's exactly what they were/are entitled to.

you're really fucking dumb and really fucking stubborn.

Stocks are priced by discounting a future stream of cash flows at an appropriate rate. The prices of tech stocks like amazon reflect not only the present but the future, wherein amazon can no longer shovel all their cash into RnD and actually produce earnings and dividends to investors. Its still based on fundamentals

>What is negative sum game
>What is zero sum game
>What is positive sum game

> the smartest of us know this already.
The absolute state of nocoiners

still. up. to. the. decision. of. the. management.
apple is sitting over tens of billions of dollars in cash with nothing to spend it on right now (they just announced to bring a lot more cash to the US) and isn't paying dividends.

Why do retards keep making posts like these pretending like they know something when they're really just spewing bullshit?

> Gold is one of the most useful metals in the world
Gold teeth
Charlatan audio chords
Peacock’n jewelry

people with decisive power in a company have lots of ways to grab the profits without paying out dividends.
e.g. elect themselves as CEO, CTO, Presidents of XY division, Vice President of XY division etc. then pay out billions of dollars in salaries to the management.

>Simply because stocks are inefficient and outdated, that's why crypto and ICOs will replace them.
BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAH

What the fuck does that have to do with anything? Owning stock in itself does not have any inherent power in it, you have to be placed on the board of trustees to do any of that, and you're not going to have that happen owning a couple hundred, or even thousands, of shares out of hundreds of thousands of shares, if not millions. You need 51% to control a company. Your piddly .0043% ownership position means squat.

Board of directors, my bad.

Stocks have doubled in value since the 2008 crash. Meanwhile production has barely recovered. That's funny considering how stocks were already overvalued at their 2008 levels. Fundamental valuation hasn't mattered for years. And even then valuations such as P/E are almost arbitrary, there's no way to assign a stock absolute value in a given time, just estimates.

But sure, the fundamentals are absolutely fantastic, yes. Stocks are safe, keep investing.

most of this. Nice how the "counterarguments" are just retarded ad hominems

Gold is actually a completely niche use case metal. It's too rare and expensive to be useful in the industry so only 10% of its market cap counts for industrial use. And that's mostly just the tiny amounts used in electronics. Of the precious metals, silver is the only one whose price is mostly usage instead of rampant speculation and hoarding.

It's funny how brainlets equate stocks with companies. The relation is barely there and the rest is speculation.

DELETE THIS

NO GUYS DUMP YOUR BITCOIN BUY STOCKS THEY'RE UNDERVALUED!!! BITCOIN IS A BUBBLE ITS TOTALLY NOT GOING TO $200K WITHIN THE NEXT DECADE BECAUSE ITS LIMITED BY ITS SUPPLY WHICH WILL CREATE MASSIVE FOMO

DELETE THIS

Oh, so your retarded ass think stock just exist? Or are you confusing ETFs and other investment vehicles for stocks? I'm betting that, because you'd have to be that fucking stupid to think stocks are disassociated with their companies. And only on Veeky Forums does that kind of sheer fucking retardation exist, and post stupid fucking shit like you post.

That said crypto is still a bubble too. And fiat is on the verge of a possible collapse. There's literally no safe place for your value. Might as well shove it all in crypto, at least you get significant returns before our economy burns to the ground. Maybe we'll pay with bitconnect once the apocalypse is over.

A share is not a part of a company in any useful sense. It gives you no 0.001% of voting power, it only gives you dividends (scraps) if the company so wishes and its market valuation has almost no correlation with the company's revenue because the market is retarded, just like you.

FUCK YOU
WAT DOES THIS CREEPY IDIOT SAY??
DOESNT EVEN NOW HOW BLOCKCHAIN TECHNOLOGY WORKS MAYBE YOU SHOULD LEARN WHAT A BITCOIN IS BEFORE YOU OPEN YOU STUPID MOUTH
BANKS IS SCARED AND CRYPTO WILL BE WORTH MILLIONS IN 2019
IDIOT YOU NOW NOTHING !!!!

THIS!
Look at NVIDIA and AMD stocks. You'd expect them to dump hard when Bitcoin went down knowing that their revenues would obviously drop from less demand for CPU and GPUs. But traders of the market don't give a flying fuck. That said...NVIDIA is a good short.

Stocks are just speculation.

honestly what is it like to be this fucking stupid? you must be miserable

TSLA is the ultimate short tbqh. It's valued higher than Toyota and Volkswagen even though it has only produced debt.

Literally Google these projects right now.
R3 Corda
ABM Amro blockchain
Australia ASX blockchain
Kabuni technology and Canadian securities
Quorum jpm
Hyperledger
BTL group

These are all I can get off the top of my head. Blockchain and DLT is HUGE. There is mass adoption and eventually every bank for clearing and settlements will used blockchain

But they have no need for your crypto currencies. Crypto is just an application of blockchain and dlt, but they create their own secure, private ledgers for their settlements.

All you here are equating crypto = blockchain and crypto =blockchain only. Wake up call. This is like saying in 1999 that "internet adoption will be massive so buy pets.com, etc" lol no. Just do some research on those projects, especially corda

This, but that's not what the moon niggers here want to hear. They want to hear that the price will drop to one dollar, so they can buy in, do nothing, and in a week be millionaires.

Blockchain tech is HUGE. If you're 18, 19, have some good math and coding skills, get into it. The industrial application alone is enormous.

Crypto? It's an experiment. We'll see how it goes.

FUCK YOU WAT DOES YOU SAY??
THE JEW BANK IS SCARED BECAUSE YOU CANT PRINT CRYPTO
IT IS USE AS HEDGE AGAINST INHALATION AND BANKS IS SCARED
CRYPTO IS STORE OF DIGITAL WEALTH
ON 21 BILLION EVER MINED DEMAND ALWAYS INCREEEESES!!!!!!!!!

holy fuck, coiners btfo

Yeah, i know, dummy, that's exactly what I was saying, thanks for repeating it, like you know something I don't. Go Wellatshually someone

Most of the ones you listed either are jokes, don't exist or are just pointless internal projects.

Either way, banks will surely eventually manage to develop one efficient payments network for their internal use. But does it look like they're succeeding at that right now? Fiat will probably collapse before banks manage to come to an agreement and upgrade their decades old systems.

But the thing is that cryptos really aren't even about the tech first and foremost. Sure the tech is cool and will be used. But the primary function is removing the ability of anybody to manipulate money. It's a statement against keynesian fuckery and it's gonna keep eating ground below fiat. In the meantime it's just a trendy version of stocks.

I just concurred what you said and then you started sperging about ETFs. I just responded to that.

bitcoin has nothing to do with GPUs, they're mined with ASICs.

>But they have no need for your crypto currencies
This is how I know you don't actually understand blockchain.

There is no blockchain without cryptocurrency my dude. The incentives aren't there and blockchains without backing from cryptocurrencies are too vulnerable to 51% attacks.

Anyone who could create a secure blockchain that functioned without a cryptocurrency would have a bigger innovation than Satoshi did...

coiners are trading hyped-up "cryptocurrency" in the same way faggots were trading "stocks" during the dot com bubble. that's not to say they won't make money. they are making money. they just have to control themselves and take profits when they're up and get out before the real and final pop which deflates all prices. i personally have no skin in the game but it's interesting to keep track of this.

Do some actual research, there's huge money and implementation behind those projects. Why are you denying? If you want freedom from central banks, middlemen, and some sort of authority structure behind you "money" then someone needs to create a crypto that actually can function as money. We all know bitcoin is garbage at that, some of these 3rd wave cryptos can possibly be used as that with near instant transaction and 0 fees, but the artificial scarcity behind it will always make it too volatile to be used as money. Man unfortunately for economic growth you need an inflationary currency, deflation is bad news and when you cap a supply its deflationary. The point of money is just that, of you want gains invest in assets like real estate and stocks which have a limited supply. Money unfortunately shouldn't. For the non economists here it's make no sense but that's how it is. So far crypto "currencies" are not currencies they're assets or commodities. I say they behave like a commodity more than anything, this does not solve the manipulation of money problem, since this is unregulated whales easily manipulate it

yes, ico's are a scam, but established currencies like XMR and solutions like LINK are not

By the way, half of those projects have a cryptocurrency associated with them.

the units of account the banks will use between themselves are essentially the 'cryptocurrecy' you speak of. They need some record keeping protocol yes, but it will all stay within their ecosystem. It's not like a token anyone can buy into, that's what I'm saying. It's like private vs public companies. Ones private equity only insiders have access to private shares and one's public and trades on exchange. Financial settlements will only occur in private ledgers

And can you buy these cryptos you speak of?

It won't work my dude. If they have a distributed ledger but expect nobody to attack it because it's "private" you are essentially advocating for security through obscurity.

Cryptocurrencies are the only thing that properly incentivize a consesus mechanism on the blockchain. Anything else is subject to manipulation.

>Fuck off, gold would be almost worthless if its value was dictated solely by its usefulness. Most companies shares are also incredibly overvalued due to speculation.
Do you have a source for this claim?

There sure is money but what have they produced so far? Money amounts to nothing if you can't use it. Which one of those fragmented projects is gonna be the new global payments network? Realistically none of them so far.

Hyperledger seems to be using XLM though so I'm not saying anything about that one. R3 for instance on the other hand is vaporware, a failed extra layer on top of actual cryptos. I haven't heard anything about Quorum so far, they're maybe making an Ethereum clone, great. Then we have national projects, very fascinating.

>function as money
Just mentioned XLM, and it's only one of several

>unfortunately for economic growth you need an inflationary currency
You'd think so, but if you understand the workings of inflation you'll know that it does nothing but tax wealth and doesn't "stimulate" economy as keynesians claim. It's pointless. Any growth it creates is fake growth with money that eventually needs to be paid back in full.

>The point of money is just that, of you want gains invest in assets like real estate and stocks which have a limited supply
I've had these arguments too many times here recently, but the deal in short is that this is just false. Even if somebody doesn't steal value from you through deflation you can still invest. But you'll no longer be incentivized to malinvest and inflate stock and property prices.

This word, "established", you keep using it but I do not think it means what you think it does.

Besides, the fact that cryptos have some value is indication of them succeeding so far. People are fed (pun intended) up with the shit we're forced to go through with fiat. I know I am.

This kind of autistic reaction just lends support to his claim.

Check out project ubin

mas.gov.sg/Singapore-Financial-Centre/Smart-Financial-Centre/Project-Ubin.aspx

The institutions involved will be incentivised more than enough, probably something similar to PoI, but it will be something to pull weight within their ecosystems. And probably yeah they will not be open source by any means and obscure everything to do with the nuts and bolts of development

>This is how I know you don't actually understand blockchain

Fucking cringy 15 year olds that come to this board.

>There is no blockchain without cryptocurrency

You know blockchain is just a piece of data, right? You DO know that, don't you? It's just a file, like a picture, a zip file, a movie, a stack, it's just data, that is all it is.

>Anyone who could create a secure blockchain that functioned without a cryptocurrency

Psst, you fucking idiot, that already exists. I assume what you mean is a *decentralized* blockchain, since a centralized blockchain that is secure is trivial.

There are already secure, decentralized pieces of data. It's called a torrent.

>would have a bigger innovation than Satoshi did

Not really since it already exists.

>blockchains without backing from cryptocurrencies are too vulnerable to 51% attacks

Every blockchain on earth is vulnerable to 51% attacks you idiot. 51% is the physical upper limit, allowing the "good guys" to remain in control with something like only 40%, you then open yourself to a 40% attack.

FUCK YOU WAT YOU SAY ???
BANKS IS SCARED OF CRYPTO BECAUSE THEY CANT PRINT IT
CRYPTO IWLL BE WORTH MILLIONS IN FUTURE
BECAUSE LIMITED SUPPLY

No it doesn't. You want it to, but it doesn't.

autistic

>Anyone who could create a secure blockchain that functioned without a cryptocurrency

Psst, you fucking idiot, that already exists. I assume what you mean is a *decentralized* blockchain, since a centralized blockchain that is secure is trivial.

There are already secure, decentralized pieces of data. It's called a torrent.

you cant create scarcity in the torrent protocol

Inflation is an invisible tax yes, if you just hoard currency. Look at japan's lost decades for example, that's what a deflationary environment does to an economy. Especially if you have a country
with an increasing population, you need an inflationary currency. A currency that is fixed supply would prob work in a country with a dying population like Russia, but only hypothetically if it were closed off from international trade etc. The fake growth you speak of needs to be paid back yes, but those units are worth alot less than they were when you borrowed them. High borrowing countries like USA have it in their best interest to cause inflation, it makes the paying back so much easier. If your average citizen is to dumb and allows their savings to be eroded, that's somewhat their fault for not being educated on how to achieve real return on your currency. Money became currency after 1971, there are plenty types of ways to keep up with inflation and even raid gain on your currency relative to inflation, but people are not educated and just complain. The cryptos we have now are hardly the answer, they've been put for like what 8 years until something like tether came along? That's fractional reserving at its finest if I don't know what is. Money went thru these cycles of runs and panic until things like FDIC were implemented, now imagine a run on cryptos? It would collapse harder than the knickerbocker trust in 1907, sure a crypto currency can solve all of these eventually I just don't think it even exists yet

STAY PORE NOCOIN SHIT
WE GOING TO LAMBO LAND
9 TRILLION 2020

>Look at japan's lost decades for example, that's what a deflationary environment does to an economy
Ah yes again with the common false narratives. You could look up any source describing Japan's situation and then you wouldn't be thinking it was caused by deflation rather than financial irresponsibility. Deflation was a natural side effect when people stopped spending.

>hoard currency
Give me 1 reason why currency should be an unfit store of value and putting your money in a hunk of metal(which you can do regardless of how the currency works) is more profitable

>makes the paying back so much easier
Paying what back? Your ever-increasing trillions of debts? You seem to have no idea how severe the economic situation is.

>Money became currency after 1971
Indeed, 50 years and it's already falling apart. Excellent system, sure to last centuries. Just like all the other inflationary non-backed currencies that didn't crash and burn at all.

nice b8 m8, r8 this b8 8/8

>Give me 1 reason why currency should be an unfit store of value
it has a purpose as a utility, to to make you rich. A hunk of metal isnt what i said is better but is more profitable because you cant print or type it into existance. it shouldnt be fungible though

its all the debt to gdp ratio, sure usa has trillions in debt but it has the ability to keep it running. a country like greece has no where near as much debt as usa but its debt to gdp ratio is much higer than usas, hence less ability to pay backand i hope it does fall apart im not saying its great or anything but the current environment shows it still has a long way to go. not backed by anything other than aircraft carriers, the worlds largest military and a global reserve status to trade our energy commodity that has real demand and is scare in said units. until russian and chinks figure a way to dethrone usd as global reserve petro dollar, the military will enforce its system. sad but true, once you can pay uncle sams taxes in crypto its a different story

>boomer
>retard
>autist
>salty
>sold at 6k
pick at least one
kek

After reading this thread it's good to know that Veeky Forums has no idea how the stock market works whatsoever. With the exception, of smg, you guys are fucking clueless. Enjoy chasing the money dragon.

I'd link you some articles and stats highlighting how bad things are but I'm on my phone now. Thing is, China doesn't want to buy US bonds anymore, nobody wants them. Stocks are propped by bank QE money. USD will eventually implode and no amount of fighters can stop that.

Tell us, how does the stock market work? What is the valuation of tsla based on?

not gonna lie dude i hope you are correct. i know china doesnt want the bonds but they will find some suckers who do, japan seems to love me. stocks are propped by QE i know no one better than helicopter ben and the feds balance sheet. i know the money supply skyrockets vertically from 2008 onwards, this inflation will catch up. the next move is to watch jerome powell the first goyim fed chairman in like god knows how long. if he raises rates to 4% gradually until 2020 i expect a recession, big correction in stocks, inflation and fall in USD relative to currencies, but i dont see it evaporating into nothingness. not in our lifetime atleast, eventually, yes. they will probably have some sort of monetary reform before that happens tho.

Holy shit bitcoin is backed by nothing? Thanks for the knowledge drop OP, I am selling bitcoin for US dollars immediately! That is backed by extremely valuable assets like IOUs and promises to pay back more dollars!

You guys are arguing until you're blue in the face over which investment is better, which one is a scam, are either of them scams? The value of a stock at it's core is the exact same as crypto. The only difference is one is a hell of a lot more volatile than the other. To explain the entire stock market in a post is a stupid, condescending thing to ask. The point being, you are so obsessed with saying crypto is better than stocks, when in reality you just want to get rich fast, with no exceptions and need constant reassurance from you peers that you are right. It's absurd.

You clearly have no clue how profits are shared. Back to basics kid.

Yeah, you're probably right. There's bad times ahead and no shelter. But it's not _that_ likely for USD to drop to near zero. Most of the fall will possibly be absorbed by the markets. And if housing bubbles start crashing it's gonna get ugly. I'm worried as hell, gold seems like the only decent hedge and it's overvalued, meanwhile silver is taxable. Cash might ironically be the best thing when shit starts happening.

I'm not saying either is necessarily better. They're both more or less fucked. We'rw on the same page about that

if SHTF hard, probably phisical cash, junk gold and silver, firearms, ammunition, preserved foods and water. physical bullion is too infungible. but who knows

I own both, but my ratios are 80/20. Crypto is fun to invest in, but aside from the more stable cryptos it's no different than penny stocks. I'm not trying to lecture anyone and it seems like we agree, but it gets tiring when you want to have constructive conversations about investments, and all you get are 50 threads of people complaining about boomers and how the stock market is a scam. What the fuck happened to this place?

boomer spotted

born in 1987 faggot, I just don't hate my parents like you fags do for providing food, shelter, clothing and a good life.

Probably won't get to anything like that, hard to see it.

Yep, agreed. The kiddie posts are something I'm just ignoring as long as there's still the occasional interesting threads in between the shit

You're an idiot. 25% ownership of stocks only means 25% control or voting power not entitlement to the company's gains. Consensus actually has to be reached through voting in a stockholder's meeting or through the actions of a CEO (by majority vote again) how much profit is to be distributed through dividends. Even then preferred shares get a piece of the pie first. Like I said, get back to basics retard.