What Biz thinks of UBI?

It's 100% better than welfare
It actually rewards people for giving back

>better than welfare
>give everyone welfare
>now workers get paid more, cause money got devalued due to everyone getting welfare.

>It's either UBI or plague and famine baby.
Daily reminder: no one starved to death during the great depression
It creates a false sense of self-worth.

I support UBI so long as we scrap the welfare system we have now (with a special exemption maybe for healthcare). No food stamps or what the fuck ever, here's some cash, spend it on what you want, but it's all you get.

>dude just print more money and give it to people then there will be no poor people

The idea is that, once AI takes enough jobs and people are insofar too dumb to do better jobs or a large swath of the people displaced need to be retrained to do better jobs, a UBI would be needed as a bare minimum to make sure jimbob and Tyrone don't riot or become bums before they can be put to work in some thing other than their automated burger flipping job (from which they saved $0 btw)

Food stamps are a tiny percentage of total welfare spending, and arguably some of the best spending. Most welfare right now goes only to the elderly. Try applying that to every citizen and you'll make Obama's budget like like Calvin Coolidge's.

UBI is a trap that lures poor people into a sense of complacency before they get culled.

I'd rather the printed money go to the poor than the rich. At least if the poor have more money, it's easier to have a small consumer oriented business.

Cut all welfare. Give people the money directly, leaving the safety net and reducing government overhead. UBI or a similar system is inevitable with automation.

why not just have no income tax instead?

It doesn't matter what kind of psychological thing you think it creates it's still going to 100% be a thing in the future, wanna know why?

Automation.

nope. read more

First, there's no evidence that AI/automation is going to take over the job market. People have been predicting that for centuries and every time they're proven laughably wrong. Secondly, UBI has been proposed long before recent AI fears, it's unrelated. Third, that large swath of poor people will only get larger when those perma-poor UBI leeches have more and more babies.
Whose services do you think will be purchased with that money? That's right, the rich.

No the idea is that there will still be poor people but the rich will pay them just enough to stop rioting. It’s a way to preserve capitalism by stopping a communist revilution.

Putting it another way:

>print money. Give it to rich. Housing and other real assets are expensive as fuck.

>print money. Give it to poor. Anyone with half a brain can make money off it and live a decnet life.

UBI is just quantative easing for everyone, not just the bankers.

Retarded meme. Americans and British didn't riot on any large scale through the worst of the robber baron and Great Depression eras, why would they riot now?

Print money: hyperinflation

Quantitative easing works to some extent because the money doesn't get printed directly into the economy, it gets put into complex economic mechanisms and systems like the stock market which tend to sit rather than flow.

UBI is not welfare. Canada is expected to set it to 15k per person. 30 for a family of two plus child benefits. No tax. That is just 7k shy of a 55k job after tax. Meaning you get 7k for 37.5h a week for a year. That is a wage of 3.59CAD per hour or 2.8 real dollars. Not taking into consideration the inflation that will hit any nation implementing UBI. It is the same argument as increasing the minimum wage. People who advocate UBI don't understand that its not the nunbera that count but the value of the currency and the productive power of the nation.

Great Depression caused a large number of government welfare and employment programs to be started for this exact reason.

Cut all taxes. Give people the money they earned. Those who do not work, do not eat.

Not for that exact reason, no. Name me these attempted communist revolutions that were in play in America in the 1930s. Protip: they didn't exist. FDR created those programs because America has a democratic system where bad economies get you kicked out on your ass, and where free gibs means more happy voters.

shitskins and niggers will riot, as usual

This works for only a little while before madame guillotine comes out.

Shitskins and niggers only riot over racial reasons. If your claim was universally true, we would have seen continuous rioting in the South throughout the entire reconstruction period
Historically wrong

Yep. This will only work once robots take all our jobs and make our unemployment rate 50%+

Until we reach that point, we can't afford to just give people money.

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communists_in_the_United_States_Labor_Movement_(1919–37)

>No the idea is that there will still be poor people but the rich will pay them just enough to stop rioting

thats literally what we have now. then on top of that you want to tax the fuck out of working people or indirectly tax them via inflation and give MORE gibs to people

absolutely ridiculous. you may as well just be a commie

The first thing I'll do with my UBI money is build a bunker and stockpile food for when everything goes to shit a year or two later. Communism should be added to the DSM-5 as a severe mental disability.

Free gibs? Probably won't work, but who knows? Sign up to this crowd to get a head start OP: swiftdemand.com/?referred_by=viadata

>pic related
thats where ubi will lead us

>minimum wage workers

You mean skilled white collar workers? That's who is going to be replace first. It's easier to write a script to replace an office drone than a robot to replace a labourer.

How do you propose to fund the government? At the very least you'll need a police force and military.

Yeah, and nobody cared about them. Even Pro-Nazi movements were more powerful in America in the 30s.

if you're on UBI you can't have children

There's no other way

>People have been predicting that for centuries

Oh yeah, in Ye Olde Times they TOTALLY thought the Singularity was near.

You think that because there is no evidence of AI taking over the job market, there will not be any
However it's obvious that AI had not taken over yet because it is not yet hardly advanced enough
AI is still much dumber and less broad than even the dumb humans, but if it gets better, it or even just quicker, it will surpass them
Any

As you mentioned, fear of automation has been proven wrong in the past, but with AI we are not building better arms, legs, fingers, hands, muscles, or any other thing dumber than us that does the job better; instead we will be building better MINDS

I agree that UBI is somewhat unrelated, but I think it may be the best solution since jobs won't all become extinct at once and we'll need something to do before we have to figure out what to do when abundance hits

Lastly, there are widescale experiments being undergone right now in a few cities across the world and so far the outcomes are showing that people don't just become lazy with a basic income, but we'll have to see what happens.

Also, people often say hur dur piple would be 2 lazy if they got free money
But this then begs the question, would you?

had it since 2016 broo

Nobody cared because voters were placated by government programs. That’s the whole point.

Not very subtle push for communism. Either it quickly becomes an irrelevant amount of money or the definition of "live decently" gets expanded to where the system crashes from a McMansion being a basic entitlement. There's no way it stops at being able to afford rent for a shoe box and lentils, especially once the DAS RAYCIS chants start flying.

I watched this entire movie without sound once because I was next to a guy on a plane watching it. I got the gist of it

Here ya go OP: An Ethereum DAO for providing UBI:
github.com/swiftdemand/swiftprotocol

They also provide an in-app store for trading good & services.

swiftdemand.com/?referred_by=viadata

>the Singularity
Go back to your favorite Black Science Man plebbit board
Sure, if we want to talk really long-term, it's possible that automation and AI remove the need for employment. It's just as possible that energy will be cheap enough that the entire economy will move into a kind of future-agrarian lifestyle, where individuals can produce and sell their own goods without depending on businesses to keep them employed. It's not something really worth talking about in the context of UBI though.
So explain the decades of recessions that existed between the Civil War and Great Depression, and why there was still no meaningful threat of class rioting then either

I get this, but it remains to be seen what a UBI would really do, unlike muh socialism wuld work guize, it had not been tested for real
Also I do believe there should be a cutoff point, or possibly a gradient, but still
>Daily reminder that Milton Friedman called for a negative income tax

pic related manages to get UBI 100% wrong. The problem with traditional welfare is that it discourages people from working -- you only get welfare if you don't work or work part time on a low wage. The entire point of UBI is that you it's UNIVERSAL - you get it if you work, you get it if you don't, but it's not like traditional welfare because no one can say "Oh, better not take those extra hours or I'll lose my UBI."

You have no idea how anything works.

It's simple. Have all industry run on automated robots and blockchain. Have everyone have a share of the tokens that run the block chain.

Everyone now own a piece of what makes modern life possible.

Canada is doing it the most retarded way as guaranteed minimum income not UBI. If you start adding conditions to it you start losing a lot of benefits that UBI would have, like reduced administration costs, less enforcement, etc.

Yeh its no district 9 but its ok I guess

We’ve had basic income since the 70ies really. With wage stagnation the only way to make money was through inheritance or investments.

You think the gov runs on actual money... what is the debt at... plz nig the gov does not need your peasant shekles

Haha what?

Folks in the US will hate it. Right until everyone outside of the major urban centers in PA, OH, WV & KY (aka a whole bunch of white people) are essentially unemployable.

Then, people will love it.

it's already happening numbnuts. ever since the cotton gin, technology has been replacing labor of all kinds.

Welfare is shit no matter how you call it.

Excuse me but why would anyone invest in the extremely expensive robotisation process if entry-level salaries drop to indonesia-tier level in the first place.

Retarded commie bullshit that is perpetuated by people that have no vision, drive or capacity to pull themselves out of their surroundings

Those workers in auto industry weren't minimum wage in the first place and this kind of robots require so much people for maintainance and calibration you wouldn't believe.

nigger don't want to work, user

Why can't you just arrest them? Or let them die of starvation? In my country, you work or you die. And no one's dying cause when you're hungry and the cops will shoot you if you steal shit, you find yourself a job.

No income tax, no company yax and every state expense funded by VAT is a decent program.

>You can prove that it's impossible with a simple napkin calculation
>It's literally communism

Yeah, great idea OP.

What does the world look like when robots and AI replace all jobs? What do people do when they've made themselves obsolete? What does the economy look like when it's impossible to circulate the wealth because you've collected it all? What does the end-game of Monopoly look like?

helicopter cash that doesn't work because the value of money comes from work, not free shit given by daddy government, and arguing on the neolib keynesian economics side where "much low income earners will spend more!!!1" falls flat when inflation comes in to effect from the redistribution.

It's just a retarded concept that will never work as long as people are still working.

>First, there's no evidence that AI/automation is going to take over the job market.

Every single patch or update for major software adds features to streamline the process making it so fewer and fewer people are needed for the same job. Its fucking insane to say this is not a vector of technological growth that will continue until one person can left click 9 hour long randomly generated lord of the rings full motion video in full 3d virtual reality.

Keep pretending though, its fun seeing people who think technology is a static thing that never improves.

>What do people do when they've made themselves obsolete?

Transhumanism will be one logical step. So will bio enginering. The AIs wont be the only thing that grows exponentially.

When all of the jobs get automated, we'll invent more jobs.

I can't think of a single job which still operates in the same way as before the industrial revolution, and there are millions of new jobs which nobody had thought of before.

I support it. I get orgasmic at the thought of the majority of people removing themselves from the wealth making competition. Imagine how much easier it'd be to become rich.

>will never work as long as people are still working.
But what about when there's no longer a need for anyone to work

Yet technology creates job too. It's a fucking pipedream to believe everything will be automated because someone says it's technologically possible to automate every job existing today.

We've had the tech to automate all the clothes industry for decade yet your clothes are still made by humans, why that ?

Capitalists giving free money to prols because prols don't have money to buy shit from capitalists. Kinda funny desu

That won't happen any time soon, certainly not in the next 40 years. Unemployment, counterintuitively is at an all time low right now in USA although I would probably check labor force participation rate too.

The problem is that eventually any AI or machine will be more efficient at doing any job than a human as they become better than us at everything. So while I'm sure there will be a need for new jobs, those will be filled by machines too

I imagine a dystopian future where everyone's on Youtube and you're paid a weekly stipend based on how many views you get. When there's nothing left to do, the only thing we can do is entertain each other. If we're lucky nuclear holocaust will wipe out 90% of the planet and we can start over, delaying it for a century or two

fbpb
and witnessed!

>more efficient
In a world of rare mineral resources I'd say you are fucking preposterous there. Robots are very expensive and as they become more complex it isn't getting cheaper.

...

A neccessity unless the elites plan on culling the masses. Most jobs are going to be eliminated in the coming decades, and not just white collar jobs. There are very few jobs that are actually safe from automation.

>Yet technology creates job too.

That's a myth, the only time technology creates jobs is in very specific situations. Advancement of technology is a constant erotion of jobs.

Think about it like a bear market. You still get upwards spikes from time to time but overall you are in a down trend. Thats how technology works. And the more advanced the technology the bigger the dips and the smaller the spikes.

So like the steam engine was huge and created a boom on jobs. But robots and AI are nothing short of job carnage. An infinite dip into no jobs at all.

...

>But robots and AI are nothing short of job carnage
You've never stepped in an "automated" or "robotised" factory, did you ? In fact you've probably never worked a day in your life in production, IMO.

AI (really just machine learning) right now is very limited to operating in a single problem domain which means that there are very limited use cases for it right now. I'm sure in the future we'd have some great generic machine learning algorithms and industry specific implementations on top of them but I don't see that so much as job killing any time soon -- certainly like how computers and the internet were supposed to end up killing all jobs. People always find a way to adapt to the job industry, create new jobs based on market scarcity and demand.

i would like some free money since all the criminals and lazy fucks get it

anything that devalues welfare is A1 to me senpai

no, you dumb mongoloid luddite, nobody here thinks that technology is static, although youre a retard who thinks that job market is static and doesnt move.
the jobs that will be replaced by ai and robots will vanish, but new jobs will be created, other existing jobs will expand, etc.
in the early 20th century there were thousands of machinists per factory. in the mid-late 20th century there were hundreds. now theres a couple of guys doing cam work and dozen guys looking over cnc machines. total production went through the roof, total population went through the roof and people still have jobs.

Right now I am utilizing technology to do things that used to require a team of maybe 20 people to accomplish and I am doing it completely on my own. This is not possible 20 years ago. And its only going to continue to get easier for me.

Also, there is no need to get into anecdotal arguments to prove what I am saying. One only needs to look at say, photoshop from the 1990s vs photoshop today. Are you going to make the argument that its not faster and more efficient to work with current day photoshop vs the mid 1990s photoshop?

What about smart contracts replacing banks? Is this just imaginary? What new jobs will be created with smart contracts in mind? You would be foolish to argue that the jobs created would be greater than jobs lost.

Technology is constantly improving so you can do more and more with fewer and fewer people.

Ok give me an example of automation increasing the number of people needed to do the same job?

I am waiting. This will be awesome. Mainly because its trick question but I want hear something concrete from you.

As you want my dude. Right now I'm in the train going to a "fully automated" state of the art fab that still employs 5000 people because, guess what, automation requires maintainance and people to fix its mistakes, design engineers to create the products, researchers to look for new tech, security, and so on.

How many workers in the electronic industry in 1950, how many workers today ?

The problem is, you keep forgetting to mention that its less total people needed. Every time a piece of software is patched you can do the same thing 30 seconds faster. Every time someone advances one aspect of the field less maintenance is needed productivity continues to climb.

> How many workers in the electronic industry in 1950, how many workers today ?

Like I said, the steam engine caused a boom in jobs as well. But as technology continues to get better the number of people needed to do the same thing goes down. You can do the same thing today using those electronics that would have required far more people in the 1950s.

I actually think the people who argue that AI and robots will create more jobs are actually in complete denial. Its a mental disorder to assume these machines wont reduce the total number of humans needed to do the same job.

Want to know why? Because it would be pointless otherwise. Humans are expensive, the fewer humans the more profits you can keep for yourself. Automation would not exist in the first place if it was not for this very fact.

You don't print more money, dumb ass. The money for UBI already exists in welfare and the money used to fund all the government jobs associated with maintaining welfare.

>Humans are expensive
>t. I've never worked in production
Humans are cheap as fuck. Robots increase product reliability and conformity but are expensive as shit. That's why companies outsource cheap and bad quality production rather than robotize it.

long term inflation still needs to be tested in tandem. unfortunately we haven't figured out how to deal with the human emotion of greed yet. UBI is needed with the way we are headed, jobs will not be coming back folks sorry.