How long does it take to become a good programmer?

Depends on what you want to accomplish. It's all about knowing how to break a big problem into smaller ones and how to google the solution for each one you don't know (most of them).

What exactly do you want to do?

Lead software engineer at a top 100 tech company here.

What makes a programmer `Good'? Hireability depends on what job you want. You can do a coding boot camp for 10 weeks and have enough experience to do intro UI work, but you almost certainly need at least a 2 year college degree (4 preferred) to be considered for backend (ie: not shitter) work. Algorithm development and hardcore data science teams at my company require a masters minimum.

Most school really, depending on where you live ofc. I hate it. It really hodls the eager back.

UI work...lol

>tfw UI work was unironically harder for me than any back end work

Do you understand why they do it though? I have many coworkers who studied in countries where they didn't have to take general education and most of them are top tier sperglords

Currently working as a junior c# developer. Studied the language and
.net very rigorously for 3 to 4 month before i landed this job. Been at the company for 3 month and still feel like a total fricking brainlet. Before you really feel comfy with a language give it at least 2 years. To get a decent job id say 3 to 6 month of 40hours a week of learning. If u only have a couple of hours a day it will ofc take a lot longer. It also depends a lot on what you want to program. Some popular languages are java, c#, ruby and python.

depends on how many subordinates you can manage for a minimum wage

>excluding bullshit English classes, etc

...why do so many people think of colleges as just a vocational school and not a place for intellectual enrichment?

I think Front end work has the lowest barrier to entry (but can get complicated quickly, depending on stack). Personally, I would invest a lot of time into learning JS as it is transferable to node and mobile development.

you only really need up to and including an intro data structures course level of knowledge and a decent IQ to do literally anything possible with software, and the right project to get you going.

so about a year or 2 starting from scratch.

Because you can read books in your free time.

how much does that degree matter though? I'm working up to a degree with CS but i'm really starting to beleive i could get a job now with my programming knowledge in JAVA and .net already...

this

>reading books is the same as a college education

about 10,000 hours

you can be less than good if you spend less time, but the beginner gains is in the first 10K hours period

*good books

No, it's not the same as a college education. It's better.

t. BS in CS

Because why are you paying an exorbitant amount of money to learn what you can for free and on the internet? At this point an American university degree is a prerequisite for a professional job and that’s the fucked up part. So you need to study things that offer value to potential employers. Obviously if you come from wealth then sure go to college purely for enrichment, it’s honestly a great place to do that. But don’t do it at the expense of your future self’s finances

Is a degree actually necessary? I have a friend who taught himself when he was NEET over a year and got a job at Facebook.

If you cannot write a multi-tasking OS that’s good enough to be your own daily driver, you’re not a good programmer. I’d estimate it takes about 10 years to get there, if you apply yourself.

good compared to what? the average in the web dev industry? like a month

the average emacs/linux/llvm engineer? like 5+ years of math+coding to above average standards every day

>I think Front end work has the lowest barrier to entry (but can get complicated quickly, depending on stack). Personally, I would invest a lot of time into learning JS as it is transferable to node and mobile development.

I'd second this, JS is a good language and it is EVERYWHERE. You can do alot with it. It's not the best language but Ive lost count of the times its been mad useful. And when I say its not the best, its still a fukn excellent language that encourages good coding and the eco system is vast.

I've been in IT infrastructure for nearly two decades and I only learned to code recently - took two years / two and a half to get it down.

It's a very slow process. You have to do as someone else said - pick the problem you want to solve then build that program. The app I used to train myself (a pretty simple web / API scraper) is something a JS coder could have written in an afternoon - it took me two years, but I knew I was getting there step by step, and there were times when a simple problem would descend into a three month / six month google hunt. I actually started with Ruby for six months, then realised I would have to learn JS anyway. When I found out about node, thats all she wrote - node is brilliant, fast as fuck, pretty damn secure and exposes you to asynchronous programming, which is very useful to master in a distributed / decentralised world.

Finally, you will be tempted to just use modules for your code. Dont even bother - its a world of pain, teaches you nothing, and probs wont even work, or will fail in horrible ways that you dont even notice. Instead, master the basics of programming / cs using the basics of your chosen language (for loops, functions, etc)

Its a long road but not being able to code in this day an age would fucking terrify me. Code talks, bullshit walks.

Finally its some mind expanding shit - I was always more into the arts / dreadful at maths. Coding really felt like it rebalanced / retuned my mind.

Do it.

To become a professional at anything, you must first put 10,000 hours into the activity.

no. especially not for web shit

but if you want a job coding for specific hardware you'll probably need a degree unless you're a genius (you're not)

Based Terry Davis

>pick the problem you want to solve then build that program
good advice

>The app I used to train myself (a pretty simple web / API scraper) is something a JS coder could have written in an afternoon - it took me two years
not so good advice. if, as a beginner coder, something is taking you longer than a couple week you should tackle something simpler

treat it like you would a school assignment

for web shit codeacademy unironically has projects that should take newbies at most a couple weeks

>college education is the same as reading books

>At this point an American university degree is a prerequisite for a professional job and that’s the fucked up part.

Is that even true? Ive been hearing that in the UK for twenty years but Ive been killing it without being a grad, blue chips pretty much every job.

I mean if your english is poor / you cant write reports for senior management thats a whole other problem... Writing well is not something anyone should ignore. But yeah, college these days is pure bunkum - its an absolute stitch up full of roasties and commies.

>facebook

That's really strange. In ways I like that in the US you can pick minors and majors. But having to do English classes seems kind of pointless. Seems to devalue the whole system in a way. From UK btw.

>not so good advice. if, as a beginner coder, something is taking you longer than a couple week you should tackle something simpler
Good point but I dont think it holds - the something simpler in this case was having to learn fundaments of programming. That to me felt like / became the 'two weekly' projects. eg file management in node was only a couple weeks. Also web scarping is just... fucking delicious... it was the whole point and it drove me on relentlessly. Not sure what would have happened to me if I'd tried to do simpler things that I wasnt truly interested in. I mean I agree with your point overall, but the main concern is how do you commit to it? That can vary...
>treat it like you would a school assignment
m8 I havent seen a school since the 80s. Every day between me and school is clear blue water lol. Fuck school and everything about it!
>for web shit codeacademy unironically has projects that should take newbies at most a couple weeks
I didnt see the projects? I just chewed through their javascript course - that was my kickoff for the first few weeks until I could switch to my own dev enviroment / long term project.

One last thing, I did all my coding in the Bash version of VI - Iron man mode lol. Would recommend that too - not like you're going to be writing at a rate of more than 1 char per week lol.

I have a ton of dapp ideas, is it worth learning anything or should I just hire pajeet

>should I just hire pajeet

Do not EVER do this.
Or before you do, wander over to /g and ask them. They can tell you some stories...

>is it worth learning anything

Yes, Ethereum as I understand it - though Ive yet to start my first DAPP thats the direction Ive been pushed towards by one of the teams I'm trying to get involved with.

I was thinking about doing both desu. Ive no formal training but I have taught myself java and done some work on some side projects with friends.
I just worry there isnt the same libraries or documentation online for working with eth, not yet at least, building for android is easy mode.

>They can tell you some stories...
hell I can tell you a story right now since we had to go through interviews with some pajeets

they either couldn't show they understood english well enough to document their code correctly

or they couldn't show they understood data structures well enough to differentiate between a map and a list

or they couldn't type using more than one finger at a time

oh also the guys smelled like shit and the women (2 of them) smelled like curry

Priceless m8.

/pol might not have lambos, but they are always right.

Like most anons have said, it takes about 2 years to be competent. The biggest problem I see from most programmers in both top 30 and state schools is their aversion to learning languages, frameworks, and concepts outside of course work. You could easily make six figures if you produce apps in emerging fields (e.g blockchain) and getting noticed by potential employers. The scarcity of competent programmers in these fields is insane, and companies are rightfully desperate.

Feels good being one of them.

The general consensus in Silicon Valley about whether or not your degree matters is yes, yes it fucking matters, but only to a point. The 4-year degree is necessary to be taken as a serious candidate for a top tech company, but its not really worth it to go further than that. If you want to work in a highly specialized field (Vision, AI, "blockchain" lel) then its worth it but in terms of salary its not.. Our current VP of engineering only has a B.E.

2 year degree is ok if you are a desperate company. Anything less than that is a joke and given nothing but shit work/easy UI work to do; no disrespect to the serious UI coders.

Aside from the job opportunities it's better in every way.

Question to all the Anons, it seems many of you really know the industry. I want to learn coding, but I been reading a book on Python and have been watching you tube videos on coding. I am completely bored, it does not look anything like I expected it. It looks like your doing algebra very slowly. Is there a particular area that I can focus on that would bring me success? I hear IOS apps, where a good are to focus and not so boring. I really want to begin to push myself I want to earn a better salary, thinking of going back to community college to check out their class on C++ and any other classes they may offer.

Universities are scam, dont believe this idiots here, they didnt get the meme that these scams are outdated and inefficient

If you can write real programs, nobody cares about where you learned it.

t. top3 tech

>I hear IOS apps
fuck no. salaries for phone apps are dogshit and still dropping and that industry is plagued with pajeetery

>where a good are to focus and not so boring
it's all the same if you find it boring then you find it boring and you should do something else

trades like elevator repair and plumbing are very very lucrative right now no joke

Recommend Objective-C guide to programming by big nerd ranch. I’m only to the third unit and really enjoying it so far. Actually making programs and stuff. This book leads you to take on any other book you want, ie iOS programming or java or anything really because you’re starting with c. I also recommend learn python the hard way. The appendix on Linux and command line has really opened up my thought on how computers operate

I have a BS in Electrical Engineering and have been working as a technician at a government contractor for several months now. It’s boring though and I’m in manufacturing, not among the actual white collar suits.

I’m trying to get into the software areas there, but if my bosses can’t find a place for me coding a bit within the company, where should I quit and look to? I have plenty of programming experience in school classes but that’s about it. Mostly java, some c, a decent amount of python.

It really depends on you, how fast you learn, how much you code (especially how much extra you code outside of work), what extra materials you read, how much you step outside of your comfort zone and use new languages/frameworks/libraries/paradigms.

A coder who's hungry to learn and always coding and doing new projects could easily learn at 10x the rate of a 9-5 coder who puts in average effort. Such a coder after 6 years could be a better programmer than most average programmers will ever be in their entire lives.

You really should just learn Swift, I wouldn't recommend learning Obj-C for people learning iOS now.

Thank you Anons, I made it this far in my industry. I will give it the old college try and if I fail, hey at least I tried. I know that this is something I really wan to try. Maybe once I get the momentum I wont find it so boring, guess is some of those you tubers that are freak-en boring as fuck. I really need a win here, im stuck making 60K like I said I reached the Zenith of my career in the industry I am in.

Maybe you should check out React and learn to build websites. It's probably a lot less stale.

Electrical engineering? Unironically get an MBA and work for upper management for a good company. My uncle has both and makes bank managing at a major auto parts manufacturer.

If you read this book inside out (under 300 pages btw) you will be ahead of most college grads. In my case, I’ve seen students from UW go four years without knowing what a pointer is (i.e. how to manage memory!). It’s sharp and to the point, while providing examples you can code yourself to understand how basic programming concepts work. Plus C++ and Python will be cake once you get good at C.

>in terms of salary
If you go through grad school I can see how the pay would be dismal compared to an internship and then a job with a bachelors. If you’re great at such a specialization I don’t see why you can’t negotiate a comfy salary as an undergrad.

You really don't need to go to college to learn programming. There's so many resources online. Hell, there's even video recordings of CS courses from harvard/princeton/stanford/MIT/etc that are probably 10x better than anything your local CC can teach. There's interactive websites, coding practice sites, ebooks, youtube vids, etc.

I took a semester of university at UCSD and dropped out because I felt I could learn it on my own. I learned iOS through a book I bought and got an internship in SF that turned into a $85k job after 3 months. Now I earn twice that.

Dont. Only high IQ people can code

Right, but building blocks user. The book starts with regular C, moves into objective C concepts and then you can go to swift. I would think having that background in lower level languages would give you an edge over someone who dives into a higher level langauge and doesn’t fully understand what’s happening. ie I started with a uni class in python but when I went back and actually started to learn c, python just started making more sense.

Also, not sure why everyone wants to be a programmer when most people end up hating it.

There's plenty of other tech-related jobs that pay just as well such as design, marketing, sales, project management, etc.

Building something from nothing provides a far superior high than those jobs.

I honestly don't think it gives you much of an edge in today's professional landscape. Besides, for someone who's just learning to code, it's critical they learn the essentials first and not get bogged down. Learning C, then Obj-C, then finally learning Swift is a terrible use of time.

>I really need a win here ... I reached the Zenith of my career in the industry I am in
well this is ultimately why we're in crypto isn't it buddy

you do realize that book's a reference... right?
while you're at it go ahead and read this: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Art_of_Computer_Programming

>There's so many resources online. Hell, there's even video recordings of CS courses from harvard/princeton/stanford/MIT/etc that are probably 10x better than anything your local CC can teach. There's interactive websites, coding practice sites, ebooks, youtube vids, etc.
this so hard
the only ONLY reason you'd go to a college/bootcamp is if they get you free interviews after and have a high (over 95%) success rate

this is true, however it can end up being much more fulfilling if you can move forward into being either a systems architect or systems analyst or even project manager

>There's plenty of other tech-related jobs that pay
it's pretty hard to get into those jobs without any prior tech experience though

correct

whats a good programming language to learn?

last time i checked (a year ago) was full stack RoR dev, probably not the case any more i'd imagine.

Design is literally that. The designer has complete control over how they envision the app to look, feel, and function. Often times they can choose which features to add or cut and a basically the app's creator.

The programmer implements it according to the design. You're bringing the design to life, but it feels more like you're following a blueprint and have little say in altering it. What control you do have is in how you want to implement it, but most of this will be completely under the hood and unnoticed.

Thank you Anons, I will push myself. I bought in to the No Fap Meme, and also No Porn Meme. I want to focus on bettering myself. I don't want to rely on CU-CK COIN for a future. I want to make my own luck. Crypto is cool but I need a better career.

RoR isn't as popular. Most startups will use Node.js and React for full stack.

Learn javascript, learn node.js, maybe learn typescript.

Reading books is cheaper. Books are also on demand, and give you the same or better education faster. College is just a meme employers fell for.

What do programmers even do? How much code needs to be written? Can someone explain this to me, I don’t even really know what programming is. How does the computer know what to do when you type words into him?

Thanks, user. I was thinking JS was better as well.

you mean years

10 years actually

>College is just a meme employers fell for
nope. college is a meme taxpayers pay for assuming your degree is not worthless in industry, e.g. engineering and even moreso assuming your degree includes government backed work terms, i.e. coop

simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turing_complete

m.youtube.com/watch?v=QXjU9qTsYCc
>youtube is your friend

Same here. It's a nightmare to work with a restrictive and bug-ridden front-end framework.

wow your reely smart

In the US even if you get a STEM degree you cant avoid getting cucked. 2 years of useless classes which is like 50-100k and ofc 2 years off your life. At least the debt wont hurt as bad but still, cuckery.

>The programmer implements it according to the design. You're bringing the design to life, but it feels more like you're following a blueprint and have little say in altering it. What control you do have is in how you want to implement it, but most of this will be completely under the hood and unnoticed.

Roles vary by company.

Who cares? A code monkey is a code monkey, it won't get you far unless you're lucky, otherwise it would only be worth it as a hobby.

I detest these kinds of hiring practices. These asshats miss out on self-taught ghosts in the machine who have 10s of thousands of hours of experience.

you must marrige on sister of programmer
and, maybe, one from all you 8 sons will be programmer

Because being able to read and write decently is a universally valuable skill? Do you want your programmers to not know how to properly write an email to another person in your company? You people whine about pajeet spelling and grammar and shit all the time especially in regards to IT and software/coding shit, you’d think you’d see the value in communication skills.

it's useful, I agree

especially if you want to blow your brains out because it's so tedious and shitty

and people who make JS "frameworks" do shit that makes it impossible to actually follow the execution because it's all dynamically injected

don't expect an IDE to help you either, dynamic scope means you can't be ABSOLUTELY sure where code is being called from

Is she black?

actual intelligent programmers dont work as wageslaves for companies
i rather “work” when i want and enjoy nature than ever set foot in a pathetic modern slave labor work camp

books are better than a college education, because you can pick books that are well-liked

in college, your professor picks the textbook (one that he probably wrote)

coding is not for you, coding is applied mathematics, basically

Yes, but you're building something that YOU KNOW is wrong, but your boss tells you that it's his vision and you should do it.

That's what REALLY kills your soul. Knowing something is wrong, but being forced to build a program that will fail.

Don't fall into the trap of thinking you won't make a lot of money in coding unless you work for a big company. All of the coders that I know are independent contractors. You get paid a shit ton and you don't have to deal with the bullshit of working for a big company. It's a little bit more stressful but you have a way better life.

Why does every programmer online always talk as if all other programmers are really stupid and bad at their job?

first language should be JavaScript

it sucks and it makes you want to kill yourself, but you'll find it basically everywhere now

second language should usually be an unpopular language that makes you learn thing like Assembly or Haskell

after you learn a couple, you can pick up any language fairly quickly

because they literally are; outside of some roles like WRITING A COMPILER or some framework most programming work is Pajeet tier

programming is usually SO uninteresting, smart people actually quit programming and do something else with their lives

This. Most coders are stubborn assholes with no personality. In some programs, they're even trying to "teach empathy" to coders kek good luck with that.