Black science man has given Veeky Forums an unfortunate choice

First, your definition of transgenderism is very narrow. More broadly it describes the mismatch between gender and sex.

Second, the philosophy in feminism is that the gender binary system as a whole is a social construct, not the gender of individuals. They actually oppose the idea that one can change their gender or sexual orientation by will of oneself or others.

Third, transgenderism includes individuals who change their physical sex, and it also includes those who have no intention of doing so, but still have a mismatch between their gender identity and physical sex.

With all that said i understand the frustration. It feels like there is a mismatch somewhere in the two concepts. How can gender on a spectrum be resolved with physical sex still being on a binary scale.

Definition of mental illness is essentially thoughts processes that hinder "normal" functionality in whatever societal construct you live in. So if you experience, say, depression at normal levels and are able to function in society as far as having and keeping a job, having "normal" human relationships, etc. then it isn't a mental illness. If you have depression that hinders functioning, then it is a mental illness. The term "mental Illness" is fluid as evidenced by how much the DSM changes and the fact that they have chapters of diagnoses that they're "thinking about" making mental illnesses.

Homosexuality was seen as a way of thinking that created significant issues functioning in normal life. Now it isn't. Therefore now not a mental illness.

That being said, this entire argument is fucktarded wrong because gender isn't just in the brain and is highly affected by production of hormones from the womb on. Those hormones are produced by the physical body parts you are born with. Gender is not a "social construct" in any way whatsoever, but it is completely faulty reasoning to take this to mean that whatever you happen to think your gender is creates your actual gender as there's loads more to it than just your thought processes.

TL;DR le black science man tries to use science for an argument while completely ignoring science.

Black science man isn't disagreeing though, he's just saying that it doesn't fit with feminism. The problem with Veeky Forums is that they call it a mental illness yet refuse to accept the professionally agreed treatment. It's a mental illness, it's treated by surgery, end of the matter, the Earth keeps on turning.
Homosexuality isn't a mental illness in any way. it doesn't impair your daily life. The only non-skydaddy argument against it is that it prevents procreation, then by that logic oral sex is mental illness.
Straight men act exactly the same given the chance, look at Charlie Sheen. You think if women were as up for it as gays the straight world wouldn't be a 24/7 fuckfest?

Simply pumping people with hormones does not cure transgenderism therefore post-birth hormones don't have much to do with brain gender. Do you really think doctors were too stupid to think of this? In fact it makes it worse. A woman doesn't like her breasts, you give her extra estrogen that makes them even bigger thus freaking her out even more. Great job doctor retard.

>How can gender on a spectrum be resolved with physical sex still being on a binary scale.
Is this like how quantum theory doesn't match with relativity despite both being correct?

That's straight up false. Being transgender is not culturally acceptable. Go outside in a wig and dress right now and see how far you get before someone beats your ass. So it's safe to say that men doing this aren't doing it because it's cool. Secondly the proportion of transsexuals has always been a) flat b) tiny. But of course Veeky Forums pseudointellectuals can't tell the difference between a rise in diagnosis between an actual rise in cases.

> it's possible to be homosexual and not be degenerate, but the majority of them are slaves to their sexual impulses and go to inordinate lengths to satisfy and validate them.
Wew fucking lad.

>latent homosexuality more prevalent in those who oppose it

Gonna need a source on that one.

>gays are super degenerate

Ever spent time around older lesbians? They're about as non-sexual and boring as it gets. Which leads one to believe that there are biological reasons for higher levels of sexual desire between for men than women, which is observably true no matter how much feminists want to say otherwise.

Maybe if you live in the redneck deep south... I live in northern NJ and no one around here would beat someone

Even /lgbt/ knew Bruce did it to hide his murder charges, our real hero, Laverne Cox is perfectly sane.

Nobody said it cured anything. Nobody said you should do it. What I'm saying is that there is much more to "gender" than what your fucked up brain tells you you should be. Your body has a lot more to do with it than your brain.

You would still get looked at and laughed at. And you wouldn't get a job.
The Republican Party.

Exactly, we just kind of have to swallow the reality. It isn't exactly incorrect, just counter intuitive. It is comparing apples and oranges, just like relativity and quantum mechanics describe the very different things big and small respectively.

Did you even read what I wrote? I didn't say people are transgender because it is socially acceptable, I said that Transgenderism and homosexuality are biological but that cultural acceptance increases the amount of people who identify as such.

Ok. So you're saying that latent homosexuality is more prevalent in Republicans that other political party associations. If this is true it stands to reason that being a member of a group that defines homosexuality is wrong would increase the probability that you don't tell people you are homosexual. Makes sense, considering if you were in a group that thought homosexuality was great you wouldn't have any reason to hide it. If this is true, there's still nothing to your point. If you have a point other than to say lolrepublicanssupergay, you still have no source on that data and just look like a fucking retard.

I didn't even say transgender is socially accepted, I said if. But its not like one day is completely unacceptable abd the next day it's not. It's certainly more acceptable than a century or even decade ago. Learn how to read.

>Your body has a lot more to do with it than your brain.
What body parts and chemicals signify gender? The genitals. However if we try curing transgenderism by making them bigger it doesn't work. Chromosomes. Injecting someone with chromosomes doesn't work. Hormones. Same story, injecting hormones does nothing. Therefore if augmenting male bodily characteristics and chemicals doesn't help then that can only mean that the most powerful arbiter of gender must be the mind.

I don't understand why an astrophysicist should be treated as an authority on a biological issue.

>hormones affect human development since the womb
>hey guyz when we pump someone full of hormones later on in life it doesn't significantly change human development that has been happening since the creation of the subject
>this means hormones don't mean shit

Are you trolling now?

Of course you can't pump someone full of hormones to cure transgenderism. The brain is developed, due to chromosomal and hormonal reaons, differently in men and women from conception.

You can give someone testosterone or estrogen and significantly change their body one way or the other. Those changes are often permanent. Find me all the studies where we did this to fetuses. There aren't any. I don't get how you make the mental leap that because it doesn't work after development is complete that it somehow isn't the major factor in development.

Calm down Bush, I was only joking.
One voice of sanity in a sea of knee-jerk opinions. Thank you. It's a weird and very deep issue, gross oversimplifications and persecution does not help, the medical establishment's method of treatment to just let them go along with it works fine, it's the public that fucks it up by refusing to accept and bullying the patient to suicide then using that as "evidence" the treatment doesn't work. Trannies used bathrooms in secret for decades without incident before NC made it a problem which even Trump has said is making a mountain out of a molehill.
No it doesn't because they always identified as gay in secret. You know your argument is the same argument that Africans like to throw at us. "There are no gays in Uganda but plenty in the USA therefore homosexuality is a white illness". The same 5% of the population are gay in Uganda they just can't talk about it.

you bring up some interesting points. so transgenderism acknowledges men and women are not the same? fine by me.

>Changing the body is easier than changing the mind
you know that you hesitated typing this because there are immediate flaws to this statement.

so transgenderism and feminism are incompatible?

Then why are calc III students opining on this same issue?
So how do we cure it?

>human thinks he's a wizard
>that dude's weird, let's not associate with him, sounds good, maybe he needs some sort of mental health treatment
>man thinks he's a woman
>You killed him by not being his best friend and paying for him to cut his dick off

This is the logic.

I did. It depends on the illness. Medics did try therapy it wasn't very successful and growing breasts on a man isn't hard at all so in this case the latter is easier. Black Science Man isn't agreeing with transgenderism I don't think, he's just pointing out that one side of planet SJW must be full of shit.

Everyone has the right to an opinion, I'm just tired of Bill Nye, NDT, etc being treated as authorities on every topic because they are "smart scientists." They're experts in their respective fields; there's a reason people specialize.

It would be like a Civil War Historian being taken as an authority on some complicated political issue in a little-known city in Ancient Greece.

>how do we cure it

Maybe we don't. I mean, if you work from a standpoint, as I do, that it's a mental illness in the way we define other mental illnesses, then there may not be a cure. It's like asking how you cure acute schizoaffective disorders. We have no idea. What we currently DON'T do is provide wet nose and floppy tail surgery to the dude I work with that thinks he's a dog. Or we don't knock out the teeth of the old woman I work with that thinks she's George Washington.

I live in one of the most accepting areas in the country for transgendered people and I interact with them almost daily. There's no one bullying them or talking shit to them and they have jobs and go out and live their lives like everyone else does. They NEVER seem like happy people. They generally seem to present with a plethora of weird minor mental illnesses and what I would call personality flaws. You think they're unhappy because other people don't accept them, and that may be the case in a sense, but experience tells me they're unhappy because they're mentally ill. You can't blame the general public or society for their issues, because the way we interact with each other and understand each other is hugely influenced by gender and gender confusion creates social confusion around the individual. Asking people to deny their biology cause you don't like your genitals is insanity.

It's interesting to look at how other cultures deal with it too. Western culture is one of the least accepting of transgenderism because Western culture has only two rigid genders. Other cultures have three because they understand that men and women are different and that some males act like women. The West acknowledges the first but not the second. Now the West has gotten even worse by trying to do away with even binary gender and saying there is only one sort of person, everyone completely equal. This is feminism.

>they always identify as gay in secret
Wow looks like we have a mind reader here!

It's not that simple.

My argument: culture affects identity and how we think about gender.
You: no that's not true because look at Ugandan society where no one identifies as gay because it's not socially accepted.

This is a huge problem. Kaku is even doing talks on UFOs now and as we can see Tyson has clearly decided to become a psychologist.
Yeah every tranny on /lgbt/ is batshit. Poor souls, we should pity them not laugh. No-one ever talks about the insane co-morbidity of transgenderism even though it's painfully obvious.

I don't know what your point is. around 3-5% of the population in any country is gay and that is that. How much SJW activism is behind them is not important. You seemed to be insinuating that SJW activism causes people to identify as gay.

Yes. Which evil will you pick?

Your argument would be reasonable if 80% of those who do undergo genital mutilation surgery didn't end up committing suicide.

If ANY OTHER PRACTICE had such a high rate of patient suicide it would be abandoned overnight or banned outright.

It's ackchually 40% and a lot of those suicides are caused by people beating them up over it

Lol you seen to be putting ideas into my words that are not there. Culture affects how we identify, not the underlying biological impulse. Social acceptance doesn't make people gay, it allows them to see themselves as gay.

Ok sherlock whats your point?

>biological impulse doesn't affect how we identify

Wow. They really got their hooks in you, huh?

That is my point. That both biology abd culture pay a role at all levels of human behavior. OP presented a false dichotomy.

Lol if I say that x effects y that doesn't mean z doesn't effect y. You really can't parse simple sentences can you?

>>I don't agree with either, gender is not a social construct and transgenderism doesn't exist
>Statistically impossible. If humans are born with a trait then just like with all things dictated by DNA there's the occasional error that leads to a mismatch. Just like how nature has found it impossible to not occasionally give a baby both a vagina and a penis nature cannot ensure that every single human ever born got the mind that matched their body. Despite the media hoo-ha 0.2% of the population are transsexual, that's well within the remits of genetic errors.
Bad argument. Transsexuals aren't physically intersexed. They grow up and go through puberty with normal sex hormones, which affect brain development and function. Furthermore, physical measurements of transsexual brains (such as hemisphere size ratios) statistically fit with their biological sex, not their sexual self-identification.

You can tell a man from a woman with high reliability by physically examining the brain, but you can't identify pre-treatment transsexuals this way (once they block their natural hormones and start taking the hormones of the opposite sex, they start causing physical changes which could potentially be detected).

Transsexuals simply do not have the physical brain of the opposite sex. The claim is that they have the *mind* of the opposite sex, in the physical brain of their biological sex. It's errant nonsense.

(there are cases where intersex people call themselves "transsexual" because of some dispute over which of the two conventional categories they should be sorted into, but they are not what is normally meant by "transsexual" and including them with physically normal people who want to be treated as the opposite sex is just muddying the waters -- something activists and advocates do quite intentionally for rhetorical purposes)

>The appearance of the brain corresponds perfectly to the consciousness within
Neuroscience would be so much easier if this were true.

I was responding to the claim that transsexualism is explained by people being born with the brain of the opposite sex, due to genetic disorders. It's an ass-pull argument that doesn't stand up to examination.

Are men and women equal? Then I can't change my gender.

Are men and women Not equal? Then I can't believe in equality.

Going a little more complex:

Are genders social constructs? Then I can't be born with it nor inherit a gene that makes me a homosexual. Whatever the gender I pick, it was my own choice to do so. So basically, it was a choice.

Are genders not social constructs? Then I can't believe in such thing as mentally changing sex, whatever gender I identify with is scientifically determined. But it wasn't a choice.

Ahh logic is great.

So which is it? Equality or transgenderism? Is my gender a construct or determined by nature?

Going a little further:

Consider free will. Do I have free will? Then I can pick my gender but I am also guilty of mistakes. I can never "come out of the closet" and say it wasn't my choice to be gay or whatever. If my father, or society, doesn't want me to be a tranny, why would I choose to do so? I have no reason, therefore I can't do it.

Do I not have free will? Then I can't pick a gender, thus it is not a social construct but I have no responsibility. Whoever beat me up and put me in jail is not guilty of it as well. Was I just hated because of it? Tough shit, it's not their fault as well.

Finally, consider this: you have to refute everything in my post otherwise I made my point. Calling yourself "non-binary" is essentially binary("binary or non-binary"). Binary logic is the basis of reality. Faggots should basically just feel bad about this, just accept this bad feeling of being a retard, it is good for you and it will motivate you in your studies.

This article mentions several studies that found the exact opposite of what you claimed

Your whole argument is "they can't have the mind of the opposite sex because their brain looks like that of their own sex". "The brain looks female therefore the person must be having female thoughts". Where did you get your neuroscience PhD from again?

>Are men and women Not equal?

Judging by the number of female achievements to male ones you have your answer.

scientificamerican.com/article/is-there-something-unique-about-the-transgender-brain/

>Your whole argument is "they can't have the mind of the opposite sex because their brain looks like that of their own sex".
That's not my argument at all.

I don't make an argument to address the claim that they have the "mind" of the opposite sex in the physical brain of their own sex, I just dismiss it as nonsense.

On what basis?

>I don't make an argument
Well yeah, you have no argument, besides your claim that transgender brains don't have characteristics of their preferred sex, which is empirically false.

>This article mentions several studies that found the exact opposite of what you claimed
First of all, "studies found" is a garbage argument. It's a "some third party had the opinion" argument. What "studies find" is mostly wrong.

Secondly, they didn't claim to find "the exact opposite": they didn't look in biologically male heads and find biologically female brains. They didn't find a way to examine brains and reliably distinguish transsexuals from the general population. They went correlation fishing in small samples, and served up their catches as findings.

If you look at enough measurements of any 50 brains, you're certain to find something unusual about them which occurs at a higher frequency than in the general population. That's what I mean by "correlation fishing".

Read the article. It refers to a couple of unreproduced studies with small samples. Garbage science.

>feminism which says that gender is all a made-up social construct
No it doesn't. Feminism is more of a "black power" type movement, advocating for better treatment of women.

Hilarious
>Claimed that transsexuals having the minds of the opposite gender is bunk because their brain structure doesn't match with the gender they say they are
>Didn't give any study to back this up just said it
>Another user tells him that actually there is a study that shows that transsexuals have the brain structure of the gender that they believe they are
>"SAMPLE TOO SMALL! FISHING FOR CORRELATION!"

Why do Western women need better treatment? Is my job at the coal mine oppressing you? A world with scholarships thrown into your pussy is really tough for females huh?

Oh I wish that was feminism.

a mental illness is the choice to accept and propagate a lie. convincing yourself 2+2=5 is a mental illness

Women's Sufferage and Civil Rights was about better treatment.

Black Power and Feminism are about public respect.

>Aunt marries Chinese guy
>I call him uncle
>I'm mentally ill

>do nothing all day and talk shit, then go shopping
>"oppressed"
>get treated like little golden standards in schools
>"oppressed"
>get basically all jobs in service sectors when you are not too lazy to get one
>"oppressed"
>get less punishment for the same crime, if you are unlucky to get to court in the first place
>"oppressed"
>behave like a retarded grown up and get away with it on a daily basis
>"oppressed"
>lie constantly, many times a day, even to yourself; in fact, be so used to lying and being confused that it is just bloody normal
>"oppressed"
>get kids and money in a divorce while sucking dicks
>"oppressed"
>disobey basic rules of social conduct on a daily basis
>"oppressed"

what part of any of this is related to science or mathematics

>Neuroscience
>Not science

On the basis that it's silly and outside the realm of scientific investigation.

When you start talking about having a "female mind in a male brain", you might as well be talking about spirits or souls or preferences or opinions. What does "female mind" even mean? You could argue about the definition endlessly without making any progress.

So it's in the realm of philosophy, and I'm comfortable dismissing it as silly. The mind of a transsexual is simply the mind of a person who is rejecting reality and should not be encouraged.

You see all sorts of other trans-whatevers. You see able-bodied people who feel convinced they belong in a wheelchair, or white people who insist on claiming that they're native North Americans, to an obsessive degree. It works the same way, it follows the same patterns.

The way transsexuals act isn't like (for instance) a normal woman magically transformed into a male body at a young age. If you found yourself in a healthy young body of the opposite sex, surrounded by people who accepted you as that sex, with no one who knew you as your original sex, wouldn't you just live as that sex and make the most of it? Can you imagine being in that situation and insisting on turning the healthy, normal body you have into a crude approximation of your original one with things like surgery? Being offended at being called "she" in your female body?

Don't you think the ordinary reaction would be to deal with it, not necessarily to be happy with it, but to accept it, and to accept being treated as having the body you're in?

Look at any transsexual, and you'll see their transsexualism is just part of a larger set of mental problems. Even when they "transition" and are accepted by the people around them, they still have other serious emotional and behavioral abnormalities.

>So it's in the realm of philosophy, and I'm comfortable dismissing it as silly.
Please, just shut up. If you are on the right side but can't argue, you should just shut the fuck up.

Black Power is essentially, in all its forms, a separatist movement. "Whites should not interfere with blacks, blacks are able to build their own societies without the oppressing white man". Funny enough, this is closer to apartheid or just plain modern Africa tier than anything else. Some people just don't fucking know what they are talking about when they mention "Black Power is about better treatment". It is like their brains are too small to hold the real meanings. Anyway, this is why Black Power is against Civil Right activism and civil right activism is against Black Power. Just for fun, suppose I made a movement called "White Power" :^)

>>Another user tells him that actually there is a study that shows that transsexuals have the brain structure of the gender that they believe they are
Again, this is a complete distortion of what the study is claiming to find.

If transsexuals had the brain structure of their preferred gender, this would have been one of the first things noticed. It would be a well-known and completely uncontroversial fact. It would be used routinely in the decision of whether to proceed with sex reassignment therapy.

For instance, men have a much larger left hemisphere, while women have a more symmetrical brain. MtF transsexuals don't have symmetrical brains, they have larger left hemispheres, and vice versa.

The studies that are being brought up are small and unreplicated, and they look at much more subtle features, of which the brain has many, all subject to individual variation. And they don't claim correlations nearly strong enough to be useful in diagnosis. The simple fact is, if you look at enough of these variables in any small sample, you'll find some correlations. Hence the term "correlation fishing".

yep, this shit is not logical

>Their argument that transgender people have the brains of the gender that they think they are is a scientific study by a university
>Your argument that transgender do not have the brains of the gender that they think they are is that "it's silly"

Hey! I don't believe in spacetime because "it's silly" I don't need any actual scientific evidence to back up my claims, it's just "silly" and that makes me right!

You're clearly a 15 year old but I'll reply to the rest of your post.
>What does "female mind" even mean?
That's the whole point of OP's thread, Tyson is giving us a choice. Either accept that "male" and "female" minds exist or accept that feminists are right when they say that a woman didn't invent calculus because her husband kept her in the kitchen.
>So it's in the realm of philosophy, and I'm comfortable dismissing it as silly. The mind of a transsexual is simply the mind of a person who is rejecting reality and should not be encouraged.
Well we've been through this, a study was posted that there's physical basis to their claims, you went full conspiritard claiming "fishing for correlation" (By who? The Jews?) Yet incredulously the only shred of "evidence" you have given to back up your views is that you feel the concept is "silly". 10/10 science there.
>You see able-bodied people who feel convinced they belong in a wheelchair,

Now getting into strawmen, we are talking about genders not crippled people. If you can walk you obviously don't belong in a wheelchair. There is no "wheelchair mind" There is possibly however male and female minds.
>If you found yourself in a healthy young body of the opposite sex, surrounded by people who accepted you as that sex, with no one who knew you as your original sex, wouldn't you just live as that sex and make the most of it?
No you would freak the fuck out, your dick is gone, men are trying to fuck you, why would a straight male like this?

>"It wasn't discovered earlier therefore it can't be true"
Ok Lord Kelvin. Everything discoverable has already been discovered.

But white power is bad user.

Of course it is, user. If only judging people would be as easy as identifying races... but it just isn't. So any separatism based on race is flawed, thus Black Power and White Power are both trash. But the fact that [Insert Race] Power is even mentioned as a solution by many plebeians makes me want to puke, so I definitely don't believe in Democracy as well.

>That's the whole point of OP's thread, Tyson is giving us a choice. Either accept that "male" and "female" minds exist or accept that feminists are right when they say that a woman didn't invent calculus because her husband kept her in the kitchen.
This argument is garbage. Accepting that there are statistical performance differences between male and female brains has nothing to do with believing that there is such a thing as a "female mind" which can exist in a male brain.

>>If you found yourself in a healthy young body of the opposite sex, surrounded by people who accepted you as that sex, with no one who knew you as your original sex, wouldn't you just live as that sex and make the most of it?
>No you would freak the fuck out, your dick is gone, men are trying to fuck you, why would a straight male like this?
Nobody said anything about liking it, or about being straight, or about not being shocked initially. This is about whether a normal person in that situation would act like a transsexual: insisting on being called "he", getting his breasts surgically removed, taking male hormones, having his vagoo turned inside out, etc. and generally throwing away the healthy female body in favor of a very crude imitation of a male one.

That behavior is less in keeping with a man who somehow finds himself in a woman's body trying to find a way to live happily, and more with a mentally ill person abnormally fixated on gender identity.

A normal man in that situation is more likely to just be a lesbian. He'd almost certainly have more sexual opportunity and better sexual enjoyment as a lesbian with intact genitals than as a trans-man, and he wouldn't need expensive hormone treatments, humiliating psychiatric assessments, and painful surgery.

Can you imagine that he'd wail and gnash his teeth at needing to use the ladies' room? Or being called "she" or "Alice" in his female body? That shit's crazy people being crazy, not a normal response to circumstances.

you are mentally ill because you made that argument

>I don't agree with either, gender is not a social construct and transgenderism doesn't exist

>Statistically impossible. If humans are born with a trait then just like with all things dictated by DNA there's the occasional error that leads to a mismatch.

stopped reading here - anyone wasting his time with this retard is a bigger retard himself.

>If transsexuals had the brain structure of their preferred gender, this would have been one of the first things noticed. It would be a well-known and completely uncontroversial fact. It would be used routinely in the decision of whether to proceed with sex reassignment therapy.
More black and white thinking: "Either transexuals have the word 'transexual' stamped on their brain or transexuals have no differences in their brain at all!". Who's the silly one?

>For instance, men have a much larger left hemisphere, while women have a more symmetrical brain. MtF transsexuals don't have symmetrical brains, they have larger left hemispheres, and vice versa.
No one claimed that the differences were obvious and affected the entire brain. This is nothing but a strawman. And where is the actual evidence for your claims? Post the study or fuck off, hypocrite.

If mentally ill people want to take themselves out of the gene pool competition then I'm fine with them doing that. Don't give them healthcare.

What did he mean by this?

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the funny thing is I can't tell if this is satire. He might have just posted those things

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It absolutely does when it's convenient for feminists. This is indisputable. In fact, convenience of ideology is their trademark.

It's not a mental illness/fetish.

I've wanted to be a girl since I was 5/6 years old. I always prayed to god that I would wake up as a girl and it never happened. And then later on in life I realized it wasn't normal.

Allowing mentally ill "trans" people to mutilate their bodies into emulating another sex as treatment is as ludicrous as recommending that self-harmers ought to just go ahead and continue cutting/burning/mutilating themselves as treatment, or that bulimics and anorexics should treat themselves by continuing to starve themselves to death.

"Oh, you have this mental illness that's driving you to harm yourself, and it's causing you an immense amount of anxiety when you don't? Well, good news, you should actually fucking do it because that's the treatment."

My girlfriend has trichtillomania. If a doctor told her the treatment for trich was for her to just get it over with and have a team of surgeons scalp her so she had no hair left to pull, I'd fucking punch that doctor in the mouth.