I think the universe is deterministic, i'm wondering how you think the universe operates if it's not deterministic

So where's the electron in an atom exactly?

Wherever you observe it to be?

Determinism can only be assumed as long as observation doesn't provide a counter example.

Regardless of determinism of a system, a subsystem inside of it has the capability to be non-deterministic in its own scope. This can be proven by myriads of non deterministic programs in existence.

Existence as I know it comes from my observation of a system in which I reside. I have no way of knowing whether it is a subsystem of something larger, therefor I must entertain the possibility that it could be non-deterministic in my scope.

I could posit that a proto system enveloping all subsystems would be deterministic, but how would I know which layer am I currently on? A subsystem could have multiple subsystems of its own.

And before as well as after the observation?
As the system is deterministic you should now be able to tell any future and past location of the electron to any given time.

you know what I thought?
if the universe is deterministic it totally violates symmetry. Why should things be the way they are? thingd have to be determined somehow.
do if the universe is deterministic there has to be something beyond the universe that could cause the asymmetry in it. I mean, why isnt the universe just as symmetrical as a sphere, if not for outside influence?

>Everyone knows the Universe is a deterministic system asswipe
That's just wrong.
See

The universe is totally random.
We only assign specific importance to it because we find ourselves existing in a universe in which we can assign specific importance to.

How does humans and our machines not being able to tell any future and past location of an electron to any given time mean it can't be done?

I'm sorry but your attempt to be an edgelord just made you sound like the fucking idiot I'm sure you are.

I guarantee that you do not work in any scientific field and I am fairly certain you never graduated college, if you even went at all.

Look at it this way. Determinism can be directly related to a firm starting state pointed out by intrinsically finite models such as the big bang theory. Free will can be directly related to infinite models that have no starting state like the weak anthropic theories. Decide which bullshit theory you want to follow, and then live accordingly. Either you will be doing exactly what your supposed to be doing, or you will be freeing yourself from an artifact of a possible model. In both, you will end up carrying out your life with no real consequence, not one that you can control anyway. Cool? Cool.

>How does humans and our machines not being able to tell any future and past location of an electron to any given time mean it can't be done?
Don't confuse our engineering limitations with a fundamental aspect of the universe.
You'll never know my grandfather's middle name.
He had one, but unless you can figure out who I am, then investigate my family tree, etc, my grandfather's middle name will always be a mystery to you.
But QM tell us that an electron's exact position and momentum are like George Washington's middle name.
You'll never know Washington's middle name, but not because you can't pull off the investigation.
No. You'll never know George Washington's middle name BECAUSE HE DIDN'T HAVE ONE.

Your middle name is etched on the skein of space-time and viewable to any psychic who really wants to see it by way of your family and close friends even if you wanted to keep it secret.

I don't have to ponder James. The third-dimension may be deterministic to a degree, but sentience itself overlaps with higher dimensions up to the fifth.

It's not every day I can, but I can finally say it.

You are wrong on multiple levels.

>James
It's Bill, but you were really close.

>You are wrong on multiple levels.
At least I'm not a shitposter (at least in this thread).

Or you could do all of us a favor by telling us what the non-bullshit theory is.

>etched on the skein of space-time and viewable to any psychic
>sentience itself overlaps with higher dimensions up to the fifth.

Op here, please don't shitpost in this thread.

>i'm wondering how you think the universe operates if it's not deterministic.

DUDE QUANTUM MECHANICS WE CUNT NO NUFFIN LMAO!!!!!

This post does the opposite of what you think it does.

listen op it's simple
space is quantized
time is quantized
every planck time, all wavefunctions advance according to the schrodinger equation and then all particles which are considered to be observed undergo a collapse.

COPENHAGEN LIMIT

>Op here, please don't shitpost in this thread.
LOL, the OP is a shitpost.
...but don;t shitppost in muh thread based on 19th century bullshit

Wait. What do you mean?

I subscribe to the view that only observed time matters. All else fades to nothing when not observed by said Universe (determined by where the most constructive activity is occuring), per the principle of Schroedinger's Cat. So the Universe is a construct of observed space and time trying to find balance with itself on a macro and micro scale. The product of this being possible to interpret as free will or determinism depending on the emphasis you place on humanity as a vector for self-awareness of the Universe.

Is that what you mean? I don't know what Copenhagen Limit or "collapse" refers to here.

Because there is no possibility with any technology that fundamental universal principles can be violated. How could a universe be deterministic if it's most fundamental particles are not deterministic?

it's deterministic but not at a level we can measure or predict, in other words knowledge and free-will are unrelated

So what's free will? i see it as a description people give to events that seemingly have many different possible outcomes but only one can occur.

probabilistic. thus, I might be wrong.