I get really pissed off when I hear that most Ph.D's in math and physics who remain in academia are getting payed shitty amounts of money, like less than a plumber. And they have to constantly save their asses by applying for grants. And they are under lots of pressure to publish more papers so that they can qualify for these grants.
I want to know right now, WHY DON'T THESE GUYS GET PAYED A SHIT TON MORE MONEY?!??!
Scientists a worth a hell lot more than a banker, a football player, a CEO, and even doctors. Without scientists, none of the technology that we all depend upon would exist. These guys are not only the source of all technological innovation, but also the only people who have real insight into how the world works? These guys are the smartest, and yet much dumber people are getting payed a lot more money then them.
What the hell is wrong with society that they can't pay their most important members enough money for them to sustain themselves???
How little they are paid should make it clear that they are really not that important at all.
This is exactly the issue, most postdocs are working on some weird extremely specific research project that has a few applications in its field and will have no meaningful impact on anyone's lives outside of academia. The vast majority of academic research is like this, and most of the research with actual real-world applications involves some level of equipment and is done by experienced professors or researchers getting substantial compensation. The postdocs and recent PhDs getting paid shit are typically not working on this kind of stuff, they're working on their interests at universities.
And you seem to be very confused about the source of technological innovation. Most new technology is developed by engineers and researchers working in R&D at tech companies or industrial corporations. Postdocs aren't usually developing new technology, they're writing papers about discoveries that only very rarely have applications in actual technological innovations. And once again, engineers and researchers at tech companies get paid plenty of money.
Ayden Moore
>6 papers >6 No wonder he's homeless.
Landon Martin
Actors and Sport stars are probably highest paid people on the planet besides business moguls and they have no importance for humanity
Aiden Russell
> autism speaks
Brandon Brown
That's the other half of the issue - supply and demand.
There is relatively little demand for highly qualified intellectual labor, by nature much more work is done at a lower level than at the highest level of intellectual discourse. But a PhD is technically the highest intellectual qualification available, and the barriers to getting a PhD are not terribly high. So there are far more people with PhDs, who are technically qualified and would like to work on cutting edge theoretical topics, than there are actual cutting edge research positions.
So since there are more PhDs than there are opportunities for them to make meaningful contributions, the value of a PhD is relatively low. For those not skilled enough to make it as tenured professors or in some prestigious research post, they simply aren't adding much value to society and, like any other lower-paying skilled job, they are choosing lower compensation for getting to work with their interests.
Brayden Campbell
That doesn't annoy me that much, what does piss me of is that the average football coach will earn about 100 times what ever a PhD would earn. This is at a university, a place of learning, supposedly.
Adam Edwards
Yeah. wtf.
Also, the president of the Uni here makes literally a million dollars per year.
Charles Parker
another CS fag
Joshua Martinez
The free market decides what your labor is worth, not the abstract difficulty of your chosen college major.
Wyatt Davis
Go program code bonobo.
Leo Roberts
War user. It was not the football player or the bankers who won WW2. It was cold hard science.
Outside of war the minor life improvements science might bring can't compete with the massive amount of entertainment provided by generic pop star.
Bentley Young
>Outside of war the minor life improvements science might bring can't compete with the massive amount of entertainment provided by generic pop star. They can, the general public is just too stupid to understand that.
Nathaniel Powell
Simply user
Its the Jews Its all the Jews doing
Christopher Fisher
...
Lincoln Martinez
I want /pol/ to leave.
Daniel Foster
The football coach brings in a lot more revenue for the school than a professor
If a professor brings in a lot of research money, they'll get paid. Look at UCLA - Terry Tao, who brings in a lot of grants, makes almost $600k a year counting benefits. Prove your worth through research and you get benefitted from that
Jordan Evans
take your meds user
Jackson Long
> There is relatively little demand for highly qualified intellectual labor, by nature much more work is done at a lower level than at the highest level of intellectual discourse.
That's what I keep saying, you have +7 billion people on this planet. Even the top 1% when it comes iq/academics/intellect what have you is still too much for too little positions.
No one or sum of nations can feasibly satisfy that labor pool. Especially now during the computer age where you can render some of those top 1% intellectuals useless.
Joseph Young
Five-star posts.
OP, this comes down to market value (more or less). In other words, the value of Lebron James' or Rihanna's skill sets, for example, is greater than the value of a physics or math (or, for that matter, chemistry or molecular biology) PhD's skill set.
Tens of thousands of people, hundreds of times per year, are willing to buy tickets to witness (pun intended) Lebron James play basketball. Millions more are willing to watch on TV, and they'll send millions of dollars purchasing merchandise.
Now, compare that with a physics PhD student or postdoc or tenure-track faculty member. The "good or service" (that is, what is produced, which in turn is consumed by the marketplace and thus determines market value) is an experiment. Experimental findings are published. Federal research grants are obtained.
So, the value of the good or service in the market is far, far, far less.
Nathan Edwards
Not all scientists are worth that much. The scientists who are actually worth as much as you think they are worth are paid well and typically either have tenured positions or lucrative R&D jobs. The scientists who aren't paid much aren't worth much. Having a PhD and being a "scientist" doesn't by default make you an excellent human being who is worth so much money.
Luis Cooper
They get paid according to supply and demand. Don't expect money if your PhD is in underwater basket weaving.
Kevin Lopez
Have you seen what plumbers/tradesmen get paid recently?
Caleb Moore
>WHY DON'T THESE GUYS GET PAYED A SHIT TON MORE MONEY?!??! Because a plumber is responsible if your pipes leak after he fixed them.
Nathan Rivera
>WHY DON'T THESE GUYS GET PAYED A SHIT TON MORE MONEY? For what?
Ian Wood
NO dude no.. I came from /pol/ to escape that.. I cant take it 7 days a week
Levi Mitchell
>How little they are paid should make it clear that they are really not that important at all. HAHAHHAHAHAHAHAH. Plebs from the middle class thought that if they got educated like bourgeois, they would have the bourgeois life.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAH FUCKING PLEB.
Matthew Thomas
>Done a PhD and 3 postdocs >Published ONLY 6 papers Seriously? What the fuck was he doing, jerking off all day?
Actually, they are actually worth even less, since they survive due to government grants for the most part. In general, PhD in academia produce almost nothing of value to society. The best path is trying to get into industry after a PhD (or before if you can).
Brody Davis
They could start their own business and apply all the math and physics they learned to improve it.
Unless they're in a poor country or have filed bankruptcy, they shouldn't have any issues.
Jaxson Powell
At the core, what does the brain of an average person value? Eating Killing Fucking People with business that help others feel or get them closer to those things will be millionaires.
Luis Martin
>less than a plumber
So become a plumber! A good plumber will never be unemployed.
Ayden Carter
>In general, PhD in academia produce almost nothing of value to society. Just because something isn't immediately valuable now doesn't make it not worth pursuing. Christ.
Jeremiah Kelly
Well, it's your decision. But then don't complain afterwards that it's impossible to survive wiith such a low wage.
Logan Sanders
>ironically, if any of you thumb sucking entitled brainbrats had rolled up your sleeves and actually learned a trade, you'd nearly be rid your student debt.
>uses """plumber""" to denote "inferior laborer"
Kill yourself right now. Drink two cups of bleach, mix it with ice tea if you want. Bye.
Mason Morales
>6 papers across 3 postdocs and a phd was he just sleeping the whole time
Jaxon Ortiz
>How little they are paid should make it clear that they are really not that important at all.
Wrong from the get go. Is knowledge not important?
If we assume that knowledge has no demand then we are a destitute society. If we assume that scientists do not produce knowledge then the method of science is not efficient. Now which one do you prefer, or suggest a better assumption.
If we go by the demands of the average man then we set ourselves for the average, is this what a society needs? Surely the people in charge are not average.
In the UK post docs earn below £ 30,000, and to get a permanent residence (green card) one of the rules is that they must earn above £ 35,000. Since these immigrants are highly skilled and notably important to society the government made the clause that immigrants working in academia are exempt from this rule. I have given you a reason why a western government values these skills more than plumbers/nurses. When academics leave a country it is considered brain drain - a severe blow.
The average man is not useful for anything but exchanging paper currency and inflating numbers in a capitalistic machine.
Blake Hernandez
This is pretty much true.
1) You are basically getting paid for teaching undergrad math. You don't really need a PhD for that. In the past it was a convenient way to support a professor, who was glad to do it in return for time to do his own thing. Schools now realize they can get an adjunct to do the teaching part for much less, and just hire a few hotshot people to bring cred to the department. They can even save money on the hotshot by giving him job security and requiring him to teach only once or twice a year in lieu of cash.
2) The vast majority of math researchers will produce only a trivial amount of new knowledge. Most of those contributions will be in fields of interest only to a small number of other researchers.
Connor Scott
>These guys are the smartest
Obviously not if they shew-horned themselves into a shit position in life. The market determines what people are worth and the market has determined that these people are shit. They should have gotten 6 bachelors degrees instead of a useless doctorate and two postdocs.
If they where really hot shit they would start there own companies and prove there worth themselves.
Evan Brooks
Because smart people don't remember to act like children?
Brayden Turner
>muh quantity! don't care about quality but muh quantity!
Landon Rogers
I'm really not sure when Veeky Forums became vehemently against knowledge, learning, and scientific curiosity. We might as well merge with Veeky Forums at this point and just create /money/.
Grayson Young
>low wage Scientists in academia tend to make around or above $100k. Is this a low wage to you? What on earth would I even do with more money than that besides let it pile up? The other option is that you're just making things up to fit a narrative, maybe in a weird attempt to justify your life decisions to yourself.
Ryan Kelly
>Federal research grants are obtained. Bringing in huge amounts of money for the university.
Zachary Peterson
>I love to deprived of pleasures, so other people should be deprived of pleasure and love it like me
Adrian Morris
>I have given you a reason why a western government values these skills more than plumbers/nurses. When academics leave a country it is considered brain drain - a severe blow. Wow you are one smart cookie. Why do you think that liberals and libertarians need scientists ?
the problem of the liberals, classical and new, is that that they disintegrate once that they lack of an enemy. liberalismS work well when explicit authoritative systems are on their soil; otherwise, there remains only the praxis of leisure, available to the masses by the entertainment industry, permitted by the faith in their Human rights and their sciences (and the faith that science backs up the HR and that the HR backs up the sciences). today, even leisure even is ''ethical'', typically in tourism, so that you can claim to endorse the liberal mores while enjoying yourself.,.
the problem is that positivism and structuralism have been the pinnacle of the various liberalismS and the liberals, of any kind, cannot get out of their post-positivism and post-structuralism. they have no idea on how to save their doctrines. so today, they try to incorporate anew the religion, the religious phenomenon as they put it in social sciences, after admitting that their liberalismS is just individual hedonism and social apathy.
Jeremiah Smith
>Why do you think that liberals and libertarians need scientists ?
Surely it seems as though you do not believe that science cannot lead to knowledge? In fact it is a religion? Correct me if I am wrong on these accounts. Curious post however.
Do enlighten me on why science has to be viewed as a religion or as a replacement for one...
James Clark
If money is so important to you, find a job that pays more. That's what Veeky Forums would say to, say, a liberal arts major, so it works for math and physics majors who remain in academia.
Anthony Hughes
stupid picture... if the white guys wife is not his sister and considering his wife fucked a black guy, his kid cant look similar to his dad...
Daniel Russell
the kid cant look similar to the white guy*
Tyler Watson
Veeky Forums here
Maybe the PhD retards should look into economics and then maybe they would realize that they need to discover something actually useful to another person and then convince them that their work actually has value to human beings. Writing math jibberish and circle jerking the intellectual community and governments for stolen tax money really has no value.
Justin Scott
What pleasures are you being deprived of at $100k a year? I have disposable income on a grad student stipend for fuck's sake.
Hunter Gomez
>WHY DON'T THESE GUYS GET PAYED A SHIT TON MORE MONEY?!??! They would if the work they were doing was actually worth more to society than what the plumber was doing; which it is not since if it was they would be scooped up by research labs or offered full time faculty positions instead of getting stuck in post doc limbo with all the other retards.
>Scientists a worth a hell lot more than a banke FUCK NO, most scientists are stamp collecting lab rats you delusional fucktard.
> Without scientists, none of the technology that we all depend upon would exist. Ever wondered why engineers and industrial scientists have such high salaries?
>These guys are the smartest So. Fucking. Delusional.
Kevin Hill
>Actors and Sport stars are probably highest paid people on the planet besides business moguls and they have no importance for humanity
Remember, for every millionaire actor or Sport Star there are approximately 1,000,000 starving ones who will never make it
Parker Wright
The problem is that Veeky Forums takes unsuccessful academics and holds them up as the norm and compares them only to successful engineers, actors, athletes, whatever. In reality, unsuccessful academics are in the same boat as unsuccessful engineers and miles ahead of other unsuccessful people.
Xavier Wilson
If the football coach does well it funds most of your equipment and studentships try to be a little more greatfull.
Anthony Collins
Here's the reason why >Football player makes millions because him and his team bring in even more millions than they're being paid >CEO Runs a massive company and is responsible for the jobs of thousands of people >Doctor is a MOTHER FUCKING DOCTOR >Banker makes bank for the bank so in return he makes bank
Scientists >Drains money for research purposes >Results don't make the place money, just "fame" >Basically the scientist is a money sink
Welcome to the place known as outside of your imagination
Brayden King
The football coach brings in money solely for the athletic budget. The money from this athletic budget is then put towards paying the coach. The coach does not make money for the university at large, and he does not take money from anyone else.
Justin Jones
>the only value I'm able to see in anything is money I'm sure you believe that Star Wars are the greatest movies in history?
Brandon Ward
>Terry Tao, who brings in a lot of grants, makes almost $600k a year counting benefits. Prove your worth through research and you get benefitted from that This. You can all stop being entitled bitches now. The system is fair. You just suck. You should be working as a miner or barista, not using your daddy's money to fuck around in grad-school.
Tyler Perry
I'm graduating as a geologist soon, our work is often absolutely vital. People also are uninformed and don't care. I was told by a neighbor last week that there's no reason he needed to worry about earthquakes because this isn't an earthquake zone ... this despite the world's second most active normal fault existing within EYESIGHT of where we were standing (Wasatch Fault btw).
There is so much people know nothing about and people are the ones paying us. Unless people, average Joe people, take an interest in science and math they won't pay you, ignorance will continue, and the lives of scientists and mathematicians will become more difficult and delaying important research sometimes for decades.
Nicholas Gutierrez
>>CEO gets to the top of a massive company, so he can screw over as many workers as possible Ftfy
Luis Myers
OP's entire post was more or less centered around each job's payment so I formatted my response to fit that as wekk as 90% of the world works because of the exchange of money.
Have more smug animu faces
Ryder Perez
Just so you know, most scientists and enigneers who are worth a shit agree with you 100%.
I'm so fucking sick of all these entitled millenial idiots who think paying for a degree somehow makes you worth more than a blue collar worker. It doesn't.
Andrew James
An actual scientist would come up with something amazing or useful and make money off it, not routinely write 600 page papers on "The Effects of Changing an Insignificant Parameter on a System of Relevance to No One."
Levi Thomas
>Scientists in academia tend to make around or above $100k. Is this a low wage to you? What on earth would I even do with more money than that besides let it pile up?
These type of people probably try to keep up with the Kardashians by living a luxurious life. I'm sure most of these people grew up well off and never knew the value of a dollar.
Luke Stewart
No. Gone with the wind is.
Dylan Sullivan
this. i got offered over 65k fresh out of uni with no experience with a b.s. engineers do the important work in progressing technology
Ayden Walker
I get really pissed off when I hear that most scribes who work for the pharaoh are getting payed shitty amounts of money, like less than a baker. And they have to constantly save their asses by currying the royal family's favor. And they are under lots of pressure to write faster so that they can maintain that favor.
I want to know right now, WHY DON'T THESE GUYS GET PAYED A SHIT TON MORE MONEY?!??!
Scribes a worth a hell lot more than a priest, a merchant, a general, and even doctors. Without scribes, none of the technology that we all depend upon would exist. These guys are not only the source of all technological innovation, but also the only people who have real insight into how the world works? These guys are the smartest, and yet much dumber people are getting payed a lot more money then them.
What the hell is wrong with society that they can't pay their most important members enough money for them to sustain themselves???
Josiah Fisher
If people with PhDs in Math and Physics are not happy in academia then they should go job hunting in the job industry. There are many employers who are willing to pay more than academia for someone with a PhD in Math.
Samuel Turner
where is this statistic?
Noah Turner
We seem to be moving towards a society where every person can read and write. In your view this would open up new vistas for humanity and lead to untold of new wealth for us all. If you take a look at our current situation, however, you will see why this is absurd and hence why scribes are paid so little.
What does the average scribe do? They keep track of tedious figures of little relevance outside of taxation and large business dealings. The record history which is no more than a curiousity for those with time for lesiure. They jerk off about meaningless abstractions like the volume of a frustrum or fraction decompositon. These things have little value for our society on the whole and the averge person has no use for them.
What would your fantasy world where everyone could read and write look like? Would it be a place full of untold of riches and magic made out of imaginary shapes and numbers? Would it be a place where the farmer has more knowledge of the world than do our greatest leaders? No, at best it would be a world where the farmers waste their time reading silly nonsense written by other farmers instead of gathering crops as they are supposed to.
Please come join us in the real world.
Connor Ross
...
Jason Lewis
>most Ph.D's in math and physics who remain in academia are getting payed shitty amounts of money, like less than a plumber
Well, maybe if they knew how to do their own fucking plumbing the market value of plumbing skills would go down. The reason why plumbing is paid better is that plumbing is an actually useful skill, while the math Ph.D's aren't worth shit in real life because they have no applications at all. Suckers should've learned a trade instead if they wanted money.
Robert Williams
>Maybe the PhD retards should look into economics and then maybe they would realize that they need to discover something actually useful to another person and then convince them that their work actually has value to human beings. Writing math jibberish and circle jerking the intellectual community and governments for stolen tax money really has no value.
Congrats you understand the most basic element of economics? That doesn't require "looking into" lol
>WAHH I DON'T MAKE A MILLION DOLLARS >WAHH I CANNOT AFFORD MY LUXURIOUS LIFE AND I STILL HAVE TO BE CAREFUL WITH MY MONEY
Entitled millenials.
Carter Barnes
U people are lumping all PhDs in a pot like they are all the same. It has as much value to talk aobuith all PhD as much as talking abouth all undergraduate students.
I'm doing a PhD in information retrieval and machine learning. hope to get a quant job after, not interested in academia at all and so are my colegues.
There's a girl doing a PhD at my uni in social sciences where she is trying to help old people do some shit, i Don't even know., I laughed 2 hard intenaly when she told me that. Those are the kind of PhD that want to apply to academia and they are the majority.
Samuel Richardson
>U FUCKOFF AND DIE
Christopher Nelson
Right? That's like less than one publication a year across a PhD and 3 postdocs. I'm a chemist so I have my name on that many publications in a good year, maybe writing one or two myself. Is that publishing rate even normal for a mathematician?
Kayden Miller
Haha I can't believe someone would seriously devote their time to helping others what a dumbass lol :^)
William Thompson
>There's a girl doing a PhD at my uni in social sciences where she is trying to help old people do some shit, i Don't even know., I laughed 2 hard intenaly when she told me that.
>laughing at someone because the person wanted to help other people and wasn't doing it for the money
I said wow.
Chase Walker
here's your (you)
Nolan Torres
>the only value I'm able to see in anything is money >I'm sure you believe that Star Wars are the greatest movies in history?
People like to forget that Star Wars won Seven Oscars back when that actually meant something
Ryan Evans
Different fields publish at completely different rates, so it's absurd to try to compare. I don't know what field the guy in the picture is in.
Gabriel Perry
Intelligent people tend to be intelligent regardless of profession. There's literally no actual reason to believe that the number of really gifted blue collar workers is particularly low. A lot of people who also feel the crushing despair of modernity DON'T find the "happy rainbow land hypothesis" of academia any more realistic than the notion of "working hard, saving up, investing smartly, enjoy time off".
Besides, you're objectively more free to pursue happiness if you're not a debt slave, because if you are, you have to take any odd jobb to stay afloat, instead of having the ability to spend time training a skill, something nearly impossible if you don't get your apprenticeship with a grant or savings. Most places in the US don't give them out free.
I think that's what birthed the whole LibArt burger attendant-meme. That there is indeed a large number of middle class kids who think that plumbing, carpentry, masonry and construction is "beneath them", for so long, they have no choice but to literally work the lowest rung of the fast food chain.
Which is probably something you can turn around to your benefit, for sure, but it's a lot harder than training a skill.
Jack Foster
Underrated.
Nobody holds a scientist actually accountable for his mistakes.
Worst case he's asked to correct or withdraw his conclusion. Big deal. Babby lost his rattle.
Nathaniel Garcia
If you're not passionate enough to do it for shit pay then get a PhD in something the private sector wants, or learn how to better market your skills to a job that can use them. The world owes you nothing, and unfortunately life is nit fair, it's petty
Ryder Cook
That and people think a high IQ is a skill and nothing else is needed. I know plenty of people who do trades who aren't academia smart but just as knowledgable in their disciplines
Thomas Edwards
You are either trolling or living in a fantasy land. The "smart" people in trades cannot hold a candle to people whose job is primarily just being clever. It is no wonder people who are naturally smart gravitate towards fields where they can use that intelligence in comfort and are not required to do manual labor.
Joseph Sanchez
>The "smart" people in trades cannot hold a candle to people whose job is primarily just being clever. Of course not, however, most people with STEM degrees do not hold these types of jobs (or any), but like to pretend you do.
I don't care if you have a physics degrees, if you're serving me coffee or working IT it's because you were a shit at it and a plumber holds far more respect in my eyes.
Noah Russell
>or any Why does everyone here think that nobody has a fucking job? Have you ever seen unemployment rates for people with degrees, especially STEM degrees?
Henry Jones
Temp work doesn't count.
Ethan Baker
I'm done having this argument. If you want to ignore evidence and believe that everyone but you is unemployed and scientists sit around all day jerking each other off for a pittance, then more power to you.
Daniel Kelly
So wait the 300k starting thing was meme? Should I drop out of my math degree?
Christopher Hall
I said most people with STEM degrees don't hold STEM jobs OR any, which is accurate, a minority is unemployed or in service/tempshit then a large chunk is in finance etc. while less than 50% of graduates actually find professional work in STEM. This is true even for some engineering disciplines.
Brody Hernandez
It's true that the people who get an undergrad degree in STEM and then can't get a job probably aren't that smart, but there are a LOT of people who are extremely smart and fail to get into academia because there just aren't enough jobs. The smart ones will still at least get a programming job or something but it's not like only the people who make it as professors are the smart ones.
Jeremiah Collins
I don't get what you people are talking about. These are essentially average salaries of these type of tradesman. The ones who make 60-70K are the exception and not the rule.
