Serious Cashing Out

Veeky Forums this is something that's been on my mind for a while, and I'm still not quite sure how to handle it:

I do have a sizeable amount in crypto at the moment. My holdings are worth close to $40,000. If the coins that I hold moon in the next bull season, I can easily end up in mid six-figure territory. At that point, I absolutely want to cash some out to live comfy while I maintain my investments, but the issue is--what are the best ways to actually cash out sizeable profits in crypto without getting fucked over by the IRS?

I have not kept any records of my trades, and Binance only stores 3 months worth at a time. I already made sure to remove all my banking accounts from Coinbase and in the process of closing that. I still have a verified Gemini account as a single exit point in the event of an emergency.

My current plan is that I need to wait until DEX's come out, and then that'll be a target cash-out spot. But realistically, if I do end up in the half a mil territory or even over a mil, do I then need to jump through some hoops like Estonia e-residency, or Puerto Rico if I want to even attempt to cash out without getting my ass raped by my government?

What should I fucking do?

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ur a retad

>What should I fucking do?
Hire a professional, don't fuck around with the IRS. That's just my advice. Do what the FUCK you wanna do.

I know that, that's what I'll most likely end up doing if I end up with serious money this year. Is there like a list of tax professionals that specifically list crypto experience somewhere online?

Also, do they have some kind of confidentiality agreement? Like if I flat out tell them "I want to not pay taxes, what are some loopholes I can use," are they obligated to keep silent about it, or can they just decide to report my ass?

I was thinking of making that my first question literally to weed out good ones "Can I see the contract that says anything I tell you here stays between us?"

Anyone have experience with this?

>"I want to not pay taxes, what are some loopholes I can use," are they obligated to keep silent about it, or can they just decide to report my ass?
What you are suggesting is breaking the law. They are in the right to not help you break the law.

What you should do is say that you had no idea you would make shit loads of money.

But other anons said that their tax accountants actually told them about the Puerto Rico loophole and shit like that.

That's why I'm curious how something like that gets brought up. It has to involve one party acknowledging that the other doesn't want to pay taxes and is interested in legal alternatives.

I'm retarded, I read your post as "I want to not report my taxes". Which is illegal.

loopholes are not illegal.

>Create a holding corporation in Panama or another tax haven, you will have to find someone to help you do this discreetly
>Open an offshore bank account for that corp NOT UNDER YOUR NAME
>Sell crypto, transfer funds to offshore bank
>Create a blog/YouTube channel/some other online service, under a local corp
>Make a patreon to support your new online business
>Release minimum necessary content, like a shitty crypto review video once a month
>Accept donations, including those from your offshore account (will need to be split up over time)
>Deposit donations into your local corp
>Claim expenses greater than the income (you will actually have to buy things), pay yourself out in dividends
>Avoid capital gains tax and pay minimal corporate and/or income tax
>Spend decades in prison if you get caught

There are already plenty of money changers in Asia that will cash out BTC for you every day.

Keep your money in crypto and cash out 10k at a time as needed. These places will only get more and more coomon as time goes on.

Be sad because you don't live in my country?
But seriously though, my american friend paid capital gains tax on the sum he withdrew to fiat and called it a day. I don't think they will take the time to audit you over that sum, my friend haven't heard from them in months yet.. so.. go with that?

The IRS takes 3 - 4 years to come knocking on your door. Your friend can easily get fucked and he should be preparing for that day.

I heard the 10k at a time meme doesn't work since they specifically look for patterns like that for people trying to avoid triggering a bank reporting them.

I imagine I could seriously look into moving overseas and renouncing my American citizenship if I end up making JUST enough to retire on if I pay minimal tax, but not enough if I get taxed over 40%.

Sounds gud

wow still no solid answers. the only option i see is tether, and no one wants to rely on tether rn.

i never invest more than 5% of my net worth in crypto so i would just cash out most legally and use the rest to play around

Something else I was considering is putting the amount into solid bluechip coins. One of my plans was to split my "making it" total, between OMG and ETH for staking.

If I can just keep my crypto wealth there and either one of those continues to grow like it seems they should, I can be set for the future.

The issue is I do want to cash SOME money out to improve my current situation.

Just pay your taxes fag, you're not smarter that they are they will catch you and fuck you up.

>I heard the 10k at a time meme doesn't work

It doesn't, it's called "structuring" and the bank has a legal obligation to report it to the feds.

I would be mostly alright with paying taxes if it did mean that I would still have more money that I could have dreamed of a year or two ago, but the only issue is that this is still a fucking turbulent time for crypto, with governments still deciding how to handle it.

Also the no keeping records issue and Binance wiping them, also closing my Coinbase account.

I honestly feel like if I cashed out and attempted to do taxes based on sketchy information, that would fuck me harder than just pretending my crypto doesn't exist, and waiting until it becomes more mainstream with more regulations on how to go about it.

>Just pay your taxes fag, you're not smarter that they are they will catch you and fuck you up.

> They will spend a ton of money to get you and put you in jail but gain nothing from doing it because they cannot control the money.

Cuck

what if you convert a chunk to xmr, say you lost it on a shitty alt, and send it to small coinbase accounts owned by relatives who are too young to be taxed? is there something like that? if you make under the poverty line will it come back during tax refunds?

Are you sure about binance wiping records? I just checked on the mobile app and they have all my trades going back to my first trade on November 8th, 2017 (bought 119 Link). That's just under four months ago.
And paying your taxes doesn't make you a cuck, it's just a bribe to keep them from fucking with you later on down the line when you think life is great. Like paying "protection" money to the local mob boss.

>I honestly feel like if I cashed out and attempted to do taxes based on sketchy information, that would fuck me harder than just pretending my crypto doesn't exist, and waiting until it becomes more mainstream with more regulations on how to go about it.

Yeah its going to be a few years before we even find out if the government is capable of enforcing it anyway. A lot of people who admit they have crypto right now are taking a huge risk in being randomly picked to be made an example out of when / if the government decides its time to just make it illegal because they cannot control it anyway.

The only 100% sure thing we can see about this situation right now is that the IRS is FUCKED on this. They are plowing into a massive brick wall with no brakes and they will flail at any opportunity they have to incite FUD right before they crash.

A lot of people have no idea just how serious this is going to be in the coming years. Taxes are not going to be maintainable as a concept within 5 years.

This is going to be a very rough situation.

These are 100% my feelings about it. I can't see this being any different than pirating content these days. Nobody is afraid to do it and literally everyone does it because it takes far too much effort for the government to actually hit everyone with a fine. Even if they did, the fact that it's so ingrained in society means that if they wanted to stop pirating, they would need to send millions to our already overflowing jails.

The US is fucked on this.

Now with crypto and avoiding taxes, we have the same exact concept developing, except with much, much greater repercussions. What the fuck does the world evolve into when suddenly every citizen realizes they don't need their government to manage their money?

No matter what happens, I'm excited to be part of this ride.

This is a quality post. What the fuck are you doing here :^)
Good points about taxes, and it will be very interesting to see how it turns out in the next few years. Just makes me a bit nervous actually having some skin in the game now.

What country are you in? In Canada, I think you just pay capital gains tax on half of whatever profit you withdraw in a year- I'll just withdraw a small enough amount to not wind up in too high a tax bracket.

Having skin in the game is the best thing you could possibly do right now honestly speaking.

This is going to hit everyone, and people not in the game are going to wish they were in it when the government continues to ramp up efforts to prevent people from buying "tax free money" while the people that got in early are going to be part of the first wave of financial freedom from governments.

The people that are safest at the moment are the ones that don't yet have millions in crypto, so chances of being targeted are low, but have enough for it to grow and be part of the second wave of those making a ton of money.

They're the invisibles.

>No new posts
this is me

holy shit i like this

A lot of us are going to get pinched. And the first ones in line are the ones who give their information to the government, made a decent profit, are still holding a lot of crypto. Those people are the low hanging fruit for the government to apply the most force.

Buy gold bullion with crypto, sell gold to local buyers. Its a hassle though

While this is an interesting claim that could mainfest into reality, I'm just not buying it. Can you say what makes you believe that the government will prosecute those who played by the rules and made significant crypto gains? How would that hold in court?

>The US is fucked on this.

Provided that governments are unwilling to adopt this new technology and build around it efficiently, globalism as a concept is fucked. Its not just governments, its control of any population and the ability to raise money through coercion. They will be able to threaten people with violence but the chances of the money being destroyed are very high.

I forgot about this option I had considered before, thank you user.

I really liked this idea, as having a legit gold chest bought with crypto gains was just aesthetically appealing to me as well.

The only issue I have left, is that is it actually possible to buy property or get a bigger apartment without getting taxed? That would be super transparent if the govt sees I moved out to a more expensive place, with nothing really changing in terms of my employment, right?

>I heard the 10k at a time meme doesn't work since they specifically look for patterns like that for people trying to avoid triggering a bank reporting them.

THat's for putting money in your bank account.

I'm talking about buying cash with btc overseas and bringing the cash back with you. You will get fucked if you try to bring more than 10k cash back to the US.

Ideally you just get an apartment next to the money changers and live there.

This still has the problem of having to store fat stacks of cash in a safe or something. This becomes a major problem if it becomes a large amount of cash ($100k-$1M+), since it opens you up to the risk of being accused of money laundering or being a drug dealer if it is ever discovered by authorities. Also, good luck buying a house, even buying decent car with cash is considered suspicious in our "free" society. In my opinion, the best option is to make a shitload in crypto and cash out $37k tax free every year to live on while you go do whatever you want without working. Still though, declaring anything does sound more and more dangerous, whether under the taxable limit or not.

the only real advice is from anons telling you not to fuck with IRS.
brainlets who tell you that you can play the taxman without some serious knowledge and experience are fucking teenagers who have not seen the extent the gov't can fuck you up.
I've seen my friends jump through the hoops while the gov't froze all their accounts. it's hell

>a legit gold chest bought with crypto gains
A chest? A chest the size of a shoebox lol
demonocracy.info/infographics/world/gold/gold.html

> Can you say what makes you believe that the government will prosecute those who played by the rules and made significant crypto gains?

Its their only real option. The numbers of people who report taxes on crypto to crypto trades are going to be abysmally low I predict. Call me crazy, but the people on here shilling the IRS acting like everyone is going to suddenly follow the new, completely insane crypto to crypto rules is living in a fantasy world.

So in the situation where the government decides to pull the plug and say "We cannot enforce taxes on this so its time to make it against the law" All of the people who played by the rules are going to be given a time frame to turn in their crypto or face jail time.

They will also hit a ton of completely innocent people as well. That will be pretty scary too.

> How would that hold in court?

It probably wont hold up very well. If an opportunity pops up where we see someone being turned into an example we should use it as a chance to donate to that person to get the absolute best lawyers possible and drag the shit out for years if need be.

>I've seen my friends jump through the hoops while the gov't froze all their accounts. it's hell

They cant freeze crypto wallets.

OP listen to all your self-justifications. Put it this way....

>Stressing out trying to find ways to avoid paying tax
>Stressing out that once you finally manage to find a loophole or way to hide your gains on the DL you've done it properly
>Continuing to stress out every time you make a significant purchase in case the IRS notice and put 2 and 2 together.

Sucking it up and paying the tax would be worth it just to avoid the stress and worry of possible imprisonment

>Sucking it up and paying the tax would be worth it just to avoid the stress and worry of possible imprisonment

Op has a very fucking legit fear that we DO NOT KNOW how this is going to play out. The only sure thing is, the IRS wont be able to enforce it. That's all we know.

Deciding to play by the rules is just as risky as keeping your head down. Its probably even more risky.

We have no choice but to be stressed out about this shit. If you are not stressed you are a fucking idiot.

In the UK we just declare capital gains then pay tax on anything we've gained above the first 'tax-
free' £15,000. I assumed it would work in a similar way in the US, what's risky about playing by the rules?

Protecting Hollywood/Silicon Valley revenue and protecting US Government revenue are wildly different scenarios. The gov has more motivation to collect what's owed to them. There's little motivation to stop 13 year olds from pirating mp3s. Sure they did it for a little while, but I don't see the IRS giving up as easily when it comes to collecting taxes.

1) DEX's will not have fiat
2) even if you find a way to cash out half a mill without using a centralized exchange (local bitcoins) you will have to hide that money for the rest of your life. if you deposit it into a bank account that will immediately throw up red flags and then you'll probably be looking at money laundering if caught.
if you're a burger you could try puerto rico I supposed but I imagine uncle sam will still find a way to fuck you.

>Buy gold with crypto
Is that a taxable transaction??? I actually like this idea.

No it's not like that in the US haha. For some reason they decided that every single trade is taxable, paying it the way you say would result in penalties and is fucking wrong.

This opens up a huge can of worms with ICOs, tokenized assets "I bought this Etheremon which grew my ETH holdings since it was a pyramid scheme, then I sold it at this time when ETH was worth this much....looks good taxman?", and issues with properly calculating trades across all exchanges that you've used.

It's a fucking mess in the US right now and user is right. People in the US in crypto right now have no choice but to be stressed out, lay low, and pray that they won't get randomly selected.

Literally call up some people that look like they have exeriance with this and tell them you want to pay as little taxes as possible.

They are tax accountants paid by private clients. They are not going to be surprised someone wants to not pay a lot of taxes.

What the fuck. Is that the same with stock trading?

GOD YOU’RE SUCH A SMALL MINDED POORFAG

if only my landlord/isp/hydro accepted crypto
Im not gonna drive around the city meeting up with weirdos from localbitcoins

Or, you simply start using crypto directly to buy stuff. Even if all you do is buy video games, food vacations with it. You have essentially augmented your income permanently. The more places that accept crypto directly, the less you will ever need to "cash out"

>what's risky about playing by the rules?
If the US IRS decides crypto laws are unenforceable, and they make owning/trading/using/etc crypto illegal, anyone that's reported crypto gains to the IRS is susceptible to prosecution. "Turn in your bitcorns, they're illegal now." It's like if Australia had guns, and the government kept a record of gun owners. And then one day the Aus Gov made guns illegal. They come knocking, you either give up your guns or goto jail. Oh wait, that already happened.

my former stepfather got popped on tax fraud
they froze his assets
he did 5 years fed time
he managed to pull a couple mill out and put it in a bank in Liechentstein
The bankers would fly over and deliver him 10k cash at a time

crytpo makes this a lot fucking easier
you can literally do localbtc or just sell it on craigslist

Loopholes are legal, its the job of accountants to exploit them. What they're not going to do is outright violate the law.

Dumb fuck even if you get Eesti e-residency you still have to pay burger taxes. There is no escape from the IRS if you are an Amerimutt and you intend on ever stepping foot in the country again.

> What the fuck. Is that the same with stock trading?

There is propaganda right now that its exactly like stocks but in reality its fundamentally different.

In stocks you have to cash out between each trade. There is no such thing as directly trading one stock for another. So what the IRS is doing right now is PRETENDING you cashed out when you traded one coin for another. This causes all kinds of fucking problems. Let alone the fact that its fairly normal to do lots of transactions.

> if only my landlord/isp/hydro accepted crypto

Why not ask? Imagine living "rent free" for the rest of your life. Cashing out crypto does not mean having to put a bulk of money in your bank account. Think about the massive number of people in the united states that do not even have bank accounts. Illegal immigrants use cash for literally everything. I live in an area where not only are these kinds of people being paid off the books but they are on welfare too! Its fucking insane.

Tax avoidance is perfectly legal.

Tax evasion is not.

OP is seeking the former.

>Why not ask?
Couldn't this lead to an entire financial ecosystem operating within a country and not paying any taxes?

That sounds beautiful, but I dunno if they would let it survive

fucking noobs

this is how i know everyone here a fucking teenage poorfag larper

heres a tip from a person with actual money....

shell company
delaware

figure out the rest

That's for earned income only, capital gains are a flat rate

nice

freebeacon.com/issues/delaware-address-home-200000-shell-companies-including-hillary-clintons/

Already exists in the form of cash.

Yeah I guess so. Businesses charge tax on cash transactions but I suppose it is because they have to file the transactions for their income.

This is my plan. Going into fiat is the only way they will find you. Only converting what you need to live and wait for crypto acceptance is the best thing you can hope for.

On a side note, there is another aspect about this entire topic that RAELY gets brought up.

Notice how silent big crypto developers are about taxes. Isn't it a little strange how we are not hearing anything about how much taxes the actual devs have to pay?

Look at the Ripple CEO Brad Garlinghouse was bordering on being the most wealthy man on earth in december.

All I hear is crickets chirping on how much he needs to pay in taxes come 2018 after his currency dropped from almost 3 dollars a pop to less than one dollar currently? Not one article about how royally fucked this guy is right now.

Ripple as a company has generated Billions of Ripple coins and it has access to these vaults once a month. Sooooo that's not a taxable event? Or is this a seriously massive tax loophole to the likes humanity has never seen before.

If taxes were to be taken seriously then Ripple would be gone as a company and currency. They would have to liquidate so many coins to pay the huge taxes that the coin would be worth almost nothing. And pretty much everyone in the company would be damn near in jail.

Want to know why Ripple is not going anywhere? They wont be paying taxes probably.

Take a solid look at every major dev in the field right now. Not a peep about taxes even though these people are on the hook for billions and in many cases owe way more than they even have.

Food for thought guys.

Stepdad step back gonna make ya feel mad.
You might fuck my mum but you’ll never be my real dad.

Oh shit, Binance for real does not keep track of trades past 3 months?

Right? I cannot find anything about Binance wiping records.

>Binance saves everyone's ass by chinking the trade records for all American inquires

THANK YOU ZHAO YUN

All these threads are the same black and white BS

SOOOOOOOOOO lets talk about the middle ground and what we can do as traders to take advantage of the system in place. I can't say I know enough about this to really go in depth or employ it but heres to hoping a smarter 17 year old math wiz biztard can chime the fuck in or better yet capable experienced traders that use this to their advantage already.

this is an unregulated market so tons of shit that isn't legal in regulated markets is perfectly fine in crypto. Like WASH SALES there's got to be a way to take advantage of this and they can't say shit crypto moves too fast for them to even say some shit about a 30 day rule or anything like that. If I sell my position at a loss and rebuy back even 5 minutes later there could be tons of legitimate reasons for it. Maybe BTC is carressing 11500's asshole and I jump out at a loss it gets rejected and I'm back in. Point is doesn't seem like they could prove you are intentionally skewing your taxes.

anyone got some input on this? cause you know in this volatile market if you don't trade you're gonna sit there looking like a fucking idiot 50% down right now so that's why we trade.

can this be taken advantage of all year long? shorting alts you're trying to accumulate? A strategy to lesson "gains" while increasing coins.

I know at very least everyone should be looking at the end of the year as a time to try and make strategic trades in any coin they plan to hold through the end year and sell and rebuy on the biggest dip you see and try and lock in a "loss" even though you have roughly the same amount of coins. Maybe it's only an end of the year thing I don't know...

chime in faggots it's not like I'm asking which coin you're accumulating but if there's any general tips that aren't illegal that could be helping traders not pay as much taxes lets fucking hear it.

Bumping to see if anyone smarter than me has replies for this.

just treat it like stocks man. Crypto to crypto taxes are bullshit

>I have not kept any records of my trades
Amerifat detected

yeah you can, but it doesn't matter if the markets aren't regulated, they could potentially still ping you on for example the wash sale from a tax perspective.

Digits confirm I guess