Also, want to know how much solar Germany gets in winter? About 0. Yearly average, IIRC is like 8% or 10%. In winter, it's like 0.1% or something stupidly small. And have fun during those occasional week or two without any wind either, just when you need heating the most.
Will solar energy save us?
Levi Hill
Ethan James
Yes coal (as well as oil) is dirty and polluting. That's what solar and wind is supposed to replace, you know.
The EROEI argument is about what's currently best at returning investments for real large actors. That means how much more can you get than you pay where the energy price is in the picture.
The fact that photovoltaics for end consumers already is more affordable long term than paying those market prices gives a slight hint of how skewed those bars really are. That is how much higher they are able to charge than what even solar is able to compete with. That's a measure of how broken the market is and nothing else.
Jonathan Davis
>The EROEI argument is about what's currently best at returning investments for real large actors. That means how much more can you get than you pay where the energy price is in the picture.
No, it's not. Not at all. It's a thermodynamic argument that is completely independent of money, financing rates, and economics.
Leo Phillips
>The fact that photovoltaics for end consumers already is more affordable long term than paying those market prices
Also, largely if not entirely untrue. You're talking about power delivered averaged over the day. You're ignoring that these people still have grid connects for when the sun isn't shining. That is a very valueable service that cannot be replaced anywhere near at cost with solar and batteries.
Again, you have no idea what you're talking about. You literally don't even know what EROEI is, and I know that you have not read my first link that describes EROEI. Don't dismiss an argument when you don't even know what the argument is.
Ryder Kelly
But there is on the other hand more wind during winter. Wind and solar together give 17% annually, compared to 0% 25 years ago and the technology development is still accelerating. en.wikipedia.org
Nathan Allen
You just need a Dyson sphere OP, pretty damn simple if you ask me.
Lincoln Davis
And the exponential growth is only made possible because the manufacture is being powered by fossil fuels and nuclear power. That curve is going to come to a crashing halt as soon as solar and wind penetrations start reaching levels where EROEI is relevant, i.e. levels where intermittancy of solar and wind start sucking.
I don't care if wind is more common in winter. Look at the historical data. There are still periods of a week at a time where there is no sun and no wind. The grid would collapse, and there would be no electricity for weeks at at time.
Zachary Cox
Rate of return is purely an economic thing. It means how much money can we expect to get back for each unit of money invested. And that is governed by thousands of practical, political and economical circumstances. Much more so than by technology or science.
Also who exactly is the "we" above?
Yes exactly. Now we're getting somewhere. They have grid connects. Maybe that's what skews those rate of return bars of yours (in the opposite direction)? If they're not allowed to connect they won't even count in the return equation, amirite?
Colton Walker
>Rate of return is purely an economic thing. It means how much money can we expect to get back for each unit of money invested. And that is governed by thousands of practical, political and economical circumstances. Much more so than by technology or science.
That's not what EROEI is, dumbshit. This is the second time that I'm telling you this.
>Yes exactly. Now we're getting somewhere. They have grid connects. Maybe that's what skews those rate of return bars of yours (in the opposite direction)? If they're not allowed to connect they won't even count in the return equation, amirite?
What are you trying to say? That we should treat reliable power and unreliable power equally, and just take some naive daily average sum? No thanks. I'd rather use analysis that matches the real world which allows the lights to be on 24-7.
Ethan Taylor
That's just another way to say that if fossil fuels and nuclear refuse to help out in production of solar hardware then solar won't take off. Is that really the signal you want to send? I really don't think that helps your cause.
No it wouldn't collapse. You can store bio fuel and water in reservoirs and in worst case coal, oil or nuclear for such situations.