Universal Basic Income

I'm all for UBI but only you also eliminate every other form of government handout. Just have UBI and nothing else.

No market is truly a free market so long as laborers aren't allowed to opt out of it if they so choose. Workers are effectively coerced into working and punished with homelessness and starvation if they refuse, and employers leverage this fact to their great advantage and profit.

Most flat tax proposals I've seen to fund a UBI have their break-even point (ie, you're paying as much tax as you're getting in UBI) somewhere around 50k-60k. With a progressive tax it's even higher.

> Give me free money for doing no work.
> The money will come from "somewhere"

You need to come up with a plan now for what to do after you kill off the 1% and take all their money.

Even if we completely ignore the fact that it's literally communism, consider the following. It's completely and utterly ridiculous and can be disproven with a napkin calculation.

>Take a figure which you consider to be a "Reasonable" UBI
>Multiply it by your country's population
>See how much it'll actually cost

Commies can't even do basic maths. Nobody ever replies when I point this out.

what if you own a business? this will not work. if i get paid min wage for running a FUCKING BUSINESS i shut the doors. fuck you. fuck your socialism. fuck off.

I agree, I think most other entitlements and labor protections like minimum wage and labor unions could be done away with if replaced with an effective UBI.

Though I could see that playing out like the following:

>Give up SSI, welfare, unions, and minimum wage in exchange for a UBI
>Works great, but some conservicucks are still mad about muh handouts and stage some calamity that shakes public faith in UBI
>repeal UBI
>don't get back the other safety nets because each one took decades of political action to win
>ancap dystopia unlocked

Idiot
Youre not coerced into working
Youre coerced into feeding yourself
Go grow potatoes inna woods for dat freedom
You have the freedom to starve
Are you even serious?

UBI is the ultimate cuckery. The rich can remain rich and the poor have literally no incentive to improve. I'm all for it.

I will make over 100k this year as a mechanical eng. for a power company. I started out cutting grass, then I was a certified high pressure welder and millerite.

Faggots like you are nothing but lazy pussies.
Please save me your compassion I have no desire to be equal in a pussy society like yours

QED

Fuck off, commie. For fuck sake, we really need another Pinochet.

>You have the freedom to starve
>Are you even serious?

Implies your life is worth something in and for itself. False premise.

>Id like to hear how giving people free money will make them get a job, or make wages overall better
When people no longer worry about job security, they feel more comfortable pursuing avenues of income that they enjoy.
Also, when a job termination has less influence over you, then you're more likely to fight for higher wages through such means as strikes and arbitration.
That's the premise. All forms of likely subsidies would be combined and means tested. Earning over a threshold would also reduces your UBI.
A worker's choice is LITERALLY the definition of the free market, ya dunce.
There are hundreds of thousands of social service jobs that can be removed. Workers will move into jobs that benefit society, rather than filling a mindless bureaucratic necessity.

Youd get ubi on top
Everybody gets ubi! Who pays the ubi? Who cares! Ive got loads of free time now to draw period blood mandalas and tell you that the present is masculine

good pasta. there are only NEETs and programmers on this board

>1 post by this ID
2/10 bait faggot, have fun eating popcorn watching this board chimp out baka

its literally impossible to think of a future without basic income.
There WONT be a job for everyone

the 1% is getting richer and richer.
one day they will own ALL the money in the world

they MUST redistribute it or else they will kill 99% of the population and will live alone

The problem is that the number of secretly creative people held down by wage slavery and financial pressures is much lower than the number of people who will just live off bennies for the rest of their days

Hey dumbass, there aren't going to be any jobs in a few years. Automation guarantees socialism.

What if the 99% just lives as kind of servants for the 1%, sort of plantation style? That way the wouldnt have to kill anyone.

They wouldn't pursue avenues of income, they already have that, remember?
They'd get hobbies. Think gender studies

So they spend their money on hobbies.
Someone is now able to sell more hobby supplies if they so wish..

HOW ABOUT THIS:

UBI but that increases the more you work.

It starts out at 0, and for every year you work it increases by $50 a month

Work for 10 years, you get $500 a month
Work for 40 years, you get $2000 a month

This way people are still incentivized to actually work

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>>
This world would be perfect with 100 mill people

yea but they dont NEED that many servants
thats literally what i mean by there wont be a job for everyone

and they wont KILL people literally but people will die starving
like literally fast forward maybe 10-20 more years and Amazon and Google and Apple own all the money in the world and they can literally choose who gets to eat

The rich are getting richer but so are the poor

So china gets to sell us yoga mats
If the government is in a deficit, taking loans, does it finance ubi by deficit spending? Literally printing money and hand it to people?
If i was chinese, id sell the yoga mat. Id immediately convert the ubi to gold, though

>mfw my prediction was true and commies can't into second-grade arithmetic

Landlords would take everyone’s UBI though - we need a radical rearangement of property relations for UBI to be implemented properly

All tests and experiments in UBI suggest that it will save a significant amount of money for governments.

That's right, paying your citizens a guaranteed wage will actually save you money.

THIS. The problem isn’t the distribution of fiat currency, the problem is the distribution of land and assets.

ANC please go. Kaffirs aren't welcome here.

See:
Give me a number about how much you think it'll cost.

Also issues with citizenship etc.. you trump fuckers can say all you want but the truth is united state’s largest economy (california) literally runs on having a massive class of unskilled workers who are unable to organize due to their precarious citizenship status.

Clearly UBI would have a detrimental effect on undocumented immigrants, but this effect would ripple upwards into nearly all sectors of the California economy, reducing profit-margins for nearly everyone.

UBI is the only hope society has since robots and automation will eventually replace ALL OF THE JOBS. Let the productivity of robots pay for our lives and let freedom ring

Remember when Evolution and Survival of the Fittest was in style? I wish that would make a comeback. Nonproductive leeches need to die.

California is the economic powerhouse it is precisely because of unskilled and undocumented immigrant labor - implementing UBI would efface that entire group of people essentially. More radical solutions are necessary if UBI would be properly implemented.

We need something though, the way stuff is going right now.. I guarantee there will be major political crises down the road. To speak nothing of the upcoming economic crisis coming as well.

nigger land isnt free

tell me, what do you produce?

Except for my job, which is programming robots. Stay poor!

How's that commie, you fucking imbeciles? It's full on libertarian. Current government programs are ineffective, so just stop wasting money on them and make UBI happen. Not only that but any conditional support is counter-productive, you have to stay poor in order to rip off unemployment benefits, you have no incentive to WORK and on top of everything is promotes rent seeking behavior. KYS 80 IQ retards.

That's fine - there will always be some jobs done by humans, but 90% will eventually be replaced. I myself make wine, which will be relatively safe from automation as well - but I'll take a UBI any day.

And now people are not incentivized to take a risk and open businesses or develop new things, or pursue education, or or or ..

+1 helicopter ticket for you sir. Either explain where the money comes from or stop trying this bullshit.

If anything UBI will make immigrants life even more hell, as citizens will have even less incentive to compete with them in unskilled labor without any kind of prospect

Ubi sucks because its universal, without conditions. Think pragmatic my dudes.
First, implementation. Lets say germany does ubi of 500 euro a month for every citizen. Congrats, i as a german can now sell my marriage so that some asshole from mocambique can feed his family. They earn 500 euro a fucking year in mocambique. Also, do only citizens, or also residents get ubi? If residents are included, expect every hole in every whore to have an adress. Youre underestimating how.diffefent places in the world are, how little buying power a person 5k miles south has compared to you and how much 85% of this world would do for a "free" 500 bucks a month.
Second, expansion. Is the aim to introduce ubi to every place in this world? It should be, as otherwise these populations will out immigration pressure on your country. See, ubi, just like socialism, needs expansion, else it fails. Why? An industrial society that does not have ubi will be more competitive than one that does. The former has an advantage because the "workers" are a tad more stressed and worried and, thus, DRIVEN. So, thats unfair, right? Workers unite! Ubi for all! Its not good to.have a system that demands that kind of homogeneity because, as laid out in point one, we just arent there yet. This world is a bunch of tribes with crude iron swords, not the fucking Borg.

Ben Shapiro said: when we have the multiplicator from star trek, we can talk ubi. We.dont. our economy is deiven by scarcity. Until then, people qill need to use their heads a lottle more.

It means people will work through their 20s and when they actually have a good idea and are mature, then can start a business.

You strip MEDICAL, EDUCATIONAL and OTHER support and grant, mainly UNEMPLOYMENT BENEFITS, FOOD STAMPS, and shit like that and use that money on UBI. This money is already being spent ineffectively on bunch of ineffective bullshit which doesn't combat poverty.

Yeah also this. My argument is that at least in the context of California, the economy as it is set up now pretty much runs on unskilled immigrants without citizenship.

Keep telling yourself that faggot. Id like to see an automated farm hahaha

edition.cnn.com/2017/10/07/world/automated-farm-harvest-england/index.html

>this is what bernouts actually believe

No, it's exact fucking opposite, first of all you will never get UBI of 500 EURO, we're talking 70-120 EURO realistically for US and EU. If you're poor you DON'T HAVE INCENTIVE TO WORK. Once you're "rich" enough you LOSE benefits of being poor. Once you have UBI you DO NOT have free medicine or education anymore. If you fuck up, you FUCK UP your life for good. If you don't have money, government isn't going to give you food, you fucking starve. There is no "safety" involved. What is involved, is stripping down pointless and useless government jobs which try to "effectively allocate" the same resources which will be distributed on UBI TODAY and they always fucking fail.
Citizenship doesn't matter and is out of scope of discussion.

Taxation that goes into social welfare programs and infastructure is quintessential communism. Prove me me wrong.

Please die in a fire you lazy fuck.

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farming as we know it will be/is being reinvented. unironically we will see new paradigms in all areas, ubi goes hand in hand with this.
people will be better educate, more able to follow their passions, and we'll see crazy innovation and progress. the sense of all being in it together will be much stronger. everyone will know a better economy = more UBI and it'll be a great feedback loop of not fearing the robots. coal mining hicks will literally be able to spend all day hunting or whatever and end up as incidental ecologists and shit.
idk, eliminating the rat race of basic survival will do wonders. its the only thing im optimistic about on this gay earth

>Wages would be dictated by societal pressures, rather arbitrary industry profit margins.

Not accurate. There would be both, to what extent they modify each others influence under a UBI is precisely unknown.

For example, people will always not be satisfied merely with what they need. They will want more money than they need if people continue to express the behavior, which is widespread, of wanting to buy things they don't need.

Honestly don't think business would change much under UBI, but society would in theory be freer, with less poverty and all that comes from it, and probably much happier and satisfied overall. Nearly every structural problem created by modern capitalism can in theory be addressed by UBI.

Its important that people start thinking about it and taking it seriously. Its the next evolution of society, and without it, I think civilization breaks down and we go back to the dark ages or end up in an ever more distressing dystopia I don't know which is worse.

BernieBros get the noose too.

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You need to get back to pol, you literal piece of dogshit.

This kind of thing has been proposed as reverse income tax of sorts.

>This way people are still incentivized to actually work

I think this is a dim view of humanity. People will work. Its not necessarily obvious.

People probably had the same view of people in feudal times when considering democracy. They'd look at people and say, why would they ever work for themselves?

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People against UBI are literally retarded.
Why the fuck would we evolve society to a point where we can automate everything and have robots do everything for us BUT only the 1% gets to benefit from it while watching 7 billion people die of starvation??
uuuuuhhh

No money ever comes from government benefits. What you are avoiding mentioning is that you want to pay for it by threatening violence against productive people. My response is may you be damned

>$1000/mo
>250 million eligible Americans & another 20 million illegal aliens who will apply for it
>$3 trillion yearly bill, triple Obama's biggest military bill ever
>raise taxes on the rich to pay for it
>the rich leave again
>now gibless, the masses riot and America falls

NO SORROW FOR SOROS

GTFO COMMIE

People will never ever ever ever be satisfied. It's about goods and services. As long as you want to buy something, economy can happen. If we all suddenly owned acres of land, gigantic mansions and robot slaves, that doesn't mean that economy will die in the slightest, quite the opposite, we each would start wanting to buy star trek ships or whatever else, and similarly there would be people coming up with new ideas of goods and services to provide.
You could argue that there is technological limit of some sort and once we hit that economy will stop growing (and it could be now to be honest as new tech inventions are nowhere near as efficient/game changing after the internet) but that's muddy water.

>the problem is the distribution of land and assets.

The president is a real estate developer

Guess what industry doesn't have to pay taxes on a half million dollars capital gain on real estate

Guess what the vast majority of wealth is held as

Liberals would NEVER become stingy with government handouts to the poor. There is 0 chance in hell the same people who want tampons to be free would suddenly decide that there should only be a single government handout.

Productive people are ALREADY PAYING FOR THIS, you fucking IMBECILE!!!!!!!! You are ALREADY PAYING! And you paid since 1950! and in 1960! Welcome to earth.

I look at all the miserably unhappy people here and just marvel at why many of you want to create a hyper-competitive hellworld of success or the abyss. It would grind you fuckers into dust. Suicides here weekly.

>communism

Non-means tested UBI.

no means no
Neck yourself.

Nah rack off cunt I'll fuckn deck u

>People will never ever ever ever be satisfied.

Are you proving my point?

I agree. People will never be satisfied, which means they will work for more than the "minimum".

UBI is for solving problems like homelessness, starvation, medical expenses. It replaces food stamps, medicare, HUD, all of it. All of these things are gigantic bureaucratic nightmare zombie corporate/government hybrids that don't work.

There will probably have to be some sort of rent control to keep real estate from basically colluding to jack everyone's rent to the ceiling, but it would be cheaper to replace all those services with a cash payment for the basics "BASIC" income implies.

Before anyone worried about robots taking all the jobs, we had an absolutely disgraceful combination of wasteful government spending on totally ineffective public services resulting in (my hometown), streets and jails filled with mentally ill and people living in vans and tent cities

In the end, though, the UBI sells itself.

Go die in a gulag, you fucking commie.

Unnecessary? Nah... food stamps really help a lot of the poorest. Yes, a few may abuse the system, but overall it is necessary.

You are retarded. That is all.

Business solutions for a company that takes money from people like you. And that's why I'm not worried UBI will ever becoming a thing. It's a bad idea, yes, but more importantly, the Jews will never allow it.

And now they will use UBI to buy food stamps. Why is that necessary? You realize most countries do not have food stamps?

+1 Heli ride coming up!

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uh-oh we got an edgey business man that's blaming everyone and everything else other than himself for his failing business, uhm if your business is failing it's probably shit and time to try something else, you entitled business retards are the worst, the whole point of running a business is providing what society wants, if you're not making money you are doing that so you deserve to fail it was never "the commies" that caused you to run your failing business you TARD take some responsibility

For all you retards out there that think this is a good idea.

Minimum wage is UBI already. Either work, make something, be disabled, or die

Why do people signal so hard against a UBI? It's economically viable and it's not contradictory to a libertarian standpoint, I'm a fucking staunch libertarian and I'd rather that if I'm being taxed it's going to a UBI that's good for the economy than being dumped into a fucking welfare program feeding fat niggers in the hospital

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>they MUST redistribute it or else they will kill 99% of the population and will live alone

My dream. This is why UBI will never be a thing. We'll let you die first before we ever give you our money.

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"you're only an entrepreneur if you run profit in a declining economy with aggressive and oppressive regime"
-wise Russian guy who went to immigrate to London and start a wine shop there.

>Unnecessary? Nah... food stamps really help a lot of the poorest. Yes, a few may abuse the system, but overall it is necessary.

/Agriculture/ here...

Food stamps are nothing but a corporate welfare check written to food processors, the biggest corporate conglomerates, the ones that have their lobbyists write the entire farm bill.

Its grossly expensive and inefficient. It promotes the absolute worst consumerist and welfare mentality of all. For example, here is some shitty not-real second-tier "money". Oh, and you can buy whatever plastic wrapped junk food you want but worthless for any other purpose.

Lets remove the middleman. Just give them cash and the taxpayer will save the money that is currently being funneled straight to Cargill and Monsanto

It's not fucking viable, do some basic fucking maths for once you stupid commie.

Because they are whitetrash with low intelligence capacity. The same thing as with commieliberals but on the other spectrum. Show them bone, they start barking.

And yet you fund affirmative action?

Harvesting is not farming you dumb faggot

Please show me your derivation that shows why a UBI would be a bad idea you autist
I'm gonna assume you're a pseud who doesn't know shit about what he's talking about so please get

>Take a figure which you consider to be a "Reasonable" UBI
>Multiply it by your country's population
>That's how much it will cost

Go ahead, show me how much it'll cost. Conversely, you can divide your country's welfare expenditure by the population and see how much we'll all get without jacking up taxes.

I repeat, you're a fucking retard.