I'd like to thanks biz for acknowledging the merits of a UBI, because we now moved on to the problems of its implementation. Fortunately, in the case of USA, the only country that matters, a simple reorganization of the current welfare would mean LESS tax for the rich. So no relocation of businesses is necessary.
I'd like to point out something another user replied to this point, he said that no one in their right mind would continue working to feed everyone who doesn't. That doesn't make much sense considering that they would be paying LESS tax (AKA more money) if a UBI would be implemented. I am a capitalist so I think more money for me is the only important thing. Regarding being a capitalist, I am quite disappointed that the other user I was arguing with a few hours ago made a slightly communist suggestion regarding population growth; he said that we should limit it. As far as I know, among relevant countries, only Communist China does this.. I agree with him, however, that communism should be considered a mental disorder.
>It’s another UBI thread on Veeky Forums We’re getting closer to pre-inundation Veeky Forums, I can feel it. This isn’t an answer to the question: where does this money come from? Especially if less tax is to be paid.
Fuck off with this communist shit
current welfare and all accompanying socialist programs is more expensive than a capitalist UBI
Fuck off with this shit. Yes technological unemployment is coming. Yes full automation is coming. In this world we wouldn't need currency anymore, UBI would just be to ensure that the plebs only get breadcrumbs like they do now.
That sounds like a communist world user. I want to perpetuate the current capitalist system which is why I am for a UBI. Let the plebs be plebs, we need to give them money so they can keep on being consumers. We NEED to have plebs, so that I can be rich. The one you are proposing, that there wouldn't be currency anymore, iirc, is an inherent part of communism. You should be in a mental hospital.
UBI in return for sterilization.
lmao, ubi is not to make your life decent, just to survive.
if a guy with a ubi and part time job can smoke pot, live in a cubicle and eat i'm fine. He'll be a pleb forever.
As for pop growth, we barely have enough resources with this ratio of consumption for 2 generations. If africa level of consumption rises with the expected rise of population + india and china expected trends...
Yeah but if it is reorganized, how much money would I get a month/year?
Technological automation is coming, but not so quickly that we'll be able to skip over the middle UBI kind of phase The fact of the matter is that total automation is coming likely in ~150 to 200 years, with sundry levels of unemployment coming between now and then
>Fewer white people since the only lands with UBI will be majority white
You idiot, you'd be richer in a moneyless economy than you would even if you was a billionaire in a monetary one
>150 to 200 years This user doesn't understand the exponential function
UBI is the latest opium of the people. Only, unlike religion, UBI is is fake.
SV pushed out the propaganda to comfort slaves so that they'd feel comfortable that everything would be OK after all the jobs get automated away; the meme caught on.
Reality is, the world is fucked unless we start killing off the worthless people.
If there is one thing I know, there have to be rich people and there have to be poor people. Evolution has stamped that in our DNA.
This problem has no short-term solution other than a bodycount and heavy State controls. Expect misery within 10 years.
Full automation is a meme that will never happen within the next five generations
This user believes to heavily in Ray kurzweil but doesn't work in a technical field
>where does this money come from? redistributed from the multi trillionaire families who rule over the entire world. the idea that there must be rich and poor - that there must be social classes in society - is so outdated. give me one reason why the rothschild family deserves to have that much money. pro tip: you can't. automation will give us the ability to produce food and other products without needing a person working to produce it. what happens then? will you put people to work, just to "make them useful" or "make them earn it"? what about the person in control of deciding who "earns it"? what does that person do to earn that privilege? releasing humans from the need of being subjects in another man's dreams would only be beneficial to everyone, including the so-called "elites". a world in which everyone is free to pursue their own dreams and has the basic needs satisfied, is a world with less crime, less violence and more overall happiness. think of the boost in creativity and other human expressions that have been suppressed for thousands of years (such as spirituality for example). There are other ways for humans to add value to this world, other than desperately working any shit job for a bunch of soulless narcissists just to put food on the table.
Easier said than done. How do you plan on getting trillionaire families to redistribute all their wealth? Also there have always been social classes, even in societies that are economically pretty equal. It's like cliques in high school, it's just part of human nature
In short: the technocrats who control the new technological world will pay UBI for everyone. What is the point of increased production if no one has money to buy the products. Their capitalist system NEEDS a constant demand from consumers. So, they will have to create consumers by giving people UBI, or accept the total collapse of their system. The creation of a class of robotic workers controlled by technocrats and a class of consumers who live to consume... This is the end goal of capitalism, right? The free labor done by the robots will justify the UBI.
You realize you opinion counts for nothing right? I read this shit through and I see >hurr durr opium of the people >hurr durr propaganda >hurr Durr 'comfort slaves' >World is fucked unless we start killing off X people
So first of all anyone who wants to avoid this shitty world where people are killed for X reason (because everyone with this kind of argument has their own special X of person to be killed off) will discard your opinion. Secondly, your position only even MATTERS if there really is going to be 'misery in the next 10 years' which we'll have to see about, but likely will not happen. And thirdly, based on your statement of how there 'has to be rich people and poor people' I'm guessing you're angry at this thread for what you see to be its communist-ness, when in reality we here on Veeky Forums are probably all stronger capitalists than the average normie. We are just trying to THINK about things; a potential reorganization of the current shitty welfare drains on the economy, and yet I doubt that you are out there protesting against the biggest welfare program of all, social security. >Also, nice reddit spacing
And wow just as soon as I got done typing the above post, this faggot comes in from the other side being as much of a faggot. Can you guys just leave? >We're ready not talking about anything more major than reorganizing the current system of money flow that already goes to bloated programs like SS and welfare programs of sundry kinds, so that they actually help people not keep them poor Greentext for visibility.
We didn’t acknowledge the value of it we said that you deserved to be thrown out of a helicopter for attempting to loot money from people who earned it and give it to people who had nothing to do with its creation. Only a goddamn commie could be this deluded. If the millions of dead bodies caused by your philosophy won’t dissuade you logic won’t do a thing to help I guess. So to the helicopter you go
It would absolutely decimate prices.
Sorry user you need to get a job
There should be kilometers long glory hole walls in every city. Every morning the unemployed should line up for work there. A fair pay would ve €30 a day for this
Holy shit, a real argument! Found in the wild?!?
under our "capitalist" system, the richest families in this world became rich from war profiteering. we're talking the World War kind of war. they didn't "earn it" more than the poor man who loads heavy bags of grain into a truck for a living. remove the elite ball sack from your mouth.. it's preventing the oxygenation of your brain.
UBI + my own weed plants + VR and word depopulation (95%+ reduction to about 500M) so nature is way less crowded is my version of heaven.
The same people that support UBI are the same people who use the phrase "temporarily embarrassed millionaire" as a criticism of capitalism, are the same people who say they won't be working the fields under communism.
Everyone that supports these proven ineffective policies think they are just going to get a check every month to stay at home and play video games games
Even as a "civilized society", humans still have to follow basic rules of nature. He who does not work does not eat
>elites abused everything to get rich >We'll fix this by forcing everyone to be serfs
I think we can handle 2 billion 500 million is just too lonely; there was already 1 billion in 1804
>desperately working any shit job for a bunch of soulless narcissists just to put food on the table.
This is me rn
>implement UBI >scrap welfare, give the poor a salary instead >poor people continue to make shit decisions with money >poor people complain that they cant afford anything >leftists scream that the only solution is to give them more money
This is a recursive problem, the only solution is to get rid of the terminally poor...
That’s nice but I have to friends named augusto and gavrillo that I’m going to link you up with. They are much better at these discussions than I am.
Ray kurzweil is a fucking idiot though
That was broadly my point
kill yourself leftypol if you make this thread again Ill dox you
You guys don't seem to understand the debate going on here and should pls leav If you believe there will be a dystopian world blah blah blah with UBI, then you MUST believe the same will happen under the current system, and yet I don't see active "let's get rid of social security" (aka communism for old people) threads every so often on Veeky Forums, but I do see active UBI ones So get in the game and debate your point if you really want to, but don't just jump in this thread and complain about how 'da system iz broke!' SS eats up 2 fucking thirds of the budget anyway!
Also, to you specifically user, you say "proven ineffective" policies, but this is not the case, the only widescale experiments of UBI that have been done are underway now, and so far they are showing positive outcomes, though I am still skeptical
The only -kinda- argument I found of these is this guy's I'm not sure whether it would be a recursive problem of the govt giving people more and more money, I think the same could be done under this system, though more insidiously We would have to make it hard to increase the number paid out, then it could become a way to rally against wanton increases until inflation renders them needed
anyone who doesn't support UBI (or some sort of it) is basically a retard.
>I don't want to work. >I want to plays my videogames all day. >Why make life changes when I can live with mom and dad until I'm 30? >Girls don't want me. >Give me UBI.
Why are leftists so concerned with eliminating personal responsibility and blaming all of life's problems on society?
Fair enough. But UBI in this sense would only be a mild expansion of the existing welfare system in Scandinavian and certain other European countries. It would only be enough to meet basic needs. So there would be a large poor underclass living on just UBI, a small middle class who has the few jobs that still need to be done by humans, and a capitalist class who owns the means of production. Not much different than the current system, expect that the poor wouldn't have to work. Not sure where the incentive is make the UBI amount more than the minimum needed- if anything it would be driven by robots/techonology become so productive that it continues to drive costs down, allowing people to afford more with their UBI income. This might actually be deflationary, allowing UBI income to go down over time.
I agree with you, except (1) children should still be made to do stuff that builds character/smarts/etc, and (2) there are a lot of black people in America (for instance) who already get everything provided for them with welfare, and they still insist on joining gangs, raping, killing, and so on. Regardless of wealth, some people are genetically worthless. We could never have UBI until we fix the problem of hordes of worthless people.
Also, anyone who argues that we need consumers so we need UBI is retarded, because consumers who don’t also produce aren’t creating any wealth. Ultimately that money has to come from somewhere. If it doesn’t come from plebs bc they don’t have jobs, and rich people pay less taxes too, then where does it come from?
Regardless of the system, we should have stopped having wars centuries ago, and the reason we continue isn’t because of a lack of resources, it’s because some elites, who have a strange anti-human religion, want wars to continue. Ultimately they want the human race extinct, because they are insane and don’t even regard themselves as human. To me, UBI for all people seems like a step in the direction of human excinction.
>I'd like to thanks biz for acknowledging the merits of a UBI, because we now moved on to the problems of its implementation. Fucking how?
We already covered this in last night's thread you mongoloid. The only way you could implement an EFFECTIVE UBI and not some piss allowance of $100 a person would mean to tax the shit out of everything which would drive away businesses and industry and driving prices up even higher.
That question was in ADDITION to nobody addressing these stated problems. This has to be forum sliding and consent manufacturing of the highest degree.
So this is the oft quoted chart of the US federal budget (from wikipedia, 2016)
There would obviously have to be a period where we pay off the people already in the SS system, but how would you divide the money going to it after that? Would you have a truly Universal UBI, or would there actually be a cut off point?
>If you just take the 1.498 Trilly going to SS and Medicare right now, divided by some 325 million people, you get about $4,600 per person per year This is why I would have a cut off somewhere around the 50th percentile earner mark ($~56,000 I think), which on a side note could become like a cool badge of status in society, like haha I'm officially better than half the people, I am the upper half, but I digress
>If you don't work for your food, you don't deserve to have it >mfw robots and AI are able to do every task better than humans nobody works but robots, everybody starves to death except robot owners. >blessedcapitalism ITT literal brainlets indoctrinated by the Rockefellerian labor based ethics of the (once) great petro economy (so Amerimutts). Have fun starving when the Bezos family owns the world and has a complete automated vertical monopoly from raw materials to final products.
Capitalism doesn't make you impervious to cuckdom, you cucks.
Another problem with increasing UBI too much is that it reduces incentives. You will still need some people in the middle class to do the few jobs remaining. And you need some ambitious entrepreneurs who aspire to be capitalists. If UBI income is too good, it reduces incentive for anyone to try to get more income than what they do from UBI. This would also results in stagnation of growth, and is just as bad as not having any consumers to buy products.
>believing in forum sliding and consent manufacturing on Veeky Forums to that, hwere the proofs?
>would drive away businesses and industry and driving prices up even higher. and to this, you could at least do some math to show us this if it is so obvious
a UBI replacing existing welfare schemes that are too expensive, don't work, and create social and economic distortions would save the USA about 1.5 trillion dollars a year which is almost what we spent to "liberate" Iraq which cost every single taxpayer about 24,000 USD.
every dollar off a UBI would follow directly back into local economies.
there would be instant relief in the wage market as companies would then have to pay the fair market price for free labor.
most importantly though, it would remove the coersive reality of being forced to work just to survive.
Read or listen to Charles Murrays arguments on the topic. Or other smart people.
Im hoping the millennial generation will be the first woke generation on this issue otherwise we are going to be a nation of illegal immigrants working shitty jobs for corporations at poverty wages and the streets filled with homeless Americans
>then you MUST believe the same will happen under the current system Except we're not Le Guin reading manchildren who are incapable of seeing outside the "capitalist rich vs communist poor" dichotomy. Smart people every day are making the barrier for entry on self determination and self starting easier, and increases in communication technologies mean a new system is emerging from the noise that you're wholly incapable of seeing but will create new industries for the working people that have immense amounts of opportunity to let them grow.
>proofz pls You're already proving to be entirely intellectually dishonest. I was in that thread OP image was taken from last night, there was no consensus.
>mafs Look at what existing cuts to taxes are doing. A great relief to business owners if you actually knew what it was like to run a business.
How the fuck else are you paying for everyone's neet bux
>I'd like to thanks biz for acknowledging the merits of a UBI >acknowledging the merits of a UBI In the last thread, you people got destroyed and had no arguments for funding said program, or dealing with the consequences, like raising taxes while companies moving out of the country.
All countries will have high taxes dumbass.
>there would be instant relief in the wage market as companies would then have to pay the fair market price for free labor. Or they just relocate their whole operation to another country, while you have even more mouths to feed via UBI, and less means to pay for the bill. Let alone all the people who are leaving said country too and taking their knowledge with them.
>Le Linguine meme must as in obligation not must as in necessity
>I was in that thread OP image was taken from last night, there was no consensus well I was not, so I didn't know whether there was or wasn't consensus, but I'm certainly not sliding for an agenda or so, I'm just trying to have a debate (whether or not there was consensus doesn't really matter since this debate/thread will have no real continuation or real world consequences)
As you yourself pointed out, technological innovation are enabling things we would not have formerly imagined, thus what I'm saying is we can afford to throw a higher and higher quality bone to the bottom of society as tech gets better 100 years ago meat used to be expensive as fuck, nowadays even the poor can get a burger at mcdonald's once in a while
taxation is theft is what I agree with but it's offtopic for this thread
Why don't we just use a portion of sales tax when we purchase everyday items for UBI?
> All countries will have high taxes dumbass. Because you said so? Go ahead and lobby for implementing it, and watch your country go to shit because others are going to see the consequences and wont follow suit
What about just a negative income tax? It was Milton Friedman's idea back in the day So like, those below the poverty line get money, until you make $11,500 where you then begin to pay taxes
235,248,000 people over the age of 18 in the US x $200/month = 564, 595,200, 000 per year
Do you not understand how ridiculous this is just from a mathematical perspective?
My bad, I thought this thread was talking about the inevitable UBI of the future and not the socialist pipe dream of today.
If you cant even implement that failed idea, without having every nation on board, because otherwhise it is going to fail, then I would stop refering to it as "inevitable"
There's a good argument against UBI, which is that it would be insufficient to have an UBI within such a corrupt and artififically arranged economic system as exists right now. It would turn into distraction crumbs for the plebs (bread and circus), while kikes and cronies go on fulfilling the commandments of talmud unabashed
UBI seems inevitable when technology has automated the majority of human labor, there are much fewer new jobs being created than jobs lost, and unemployment is permanently high. But right now a real UBI system doesn't make sense. You still want people to work, and any country that disincentivizes people from working because of UBI will have lower growth and stagnate relative to other countries.
>564,595,200,000 aka ~565 Bill aka about 100 billion less than the defense budget aka one THIRD of the current welfare system for old people known as Social Security and Medicare
yeah so I'm not worried
not gonna happen, and if it does.. I will already be financially independent... waiting to leave for the off-world colonies
>Universal Basic Income >Universal
Hurr lets sterilize everyone.
Or teach them proper spending habits. Why isn't that shit a class in highschool? The stuff you're forces to learn there is trash anyway
yes but you wouldnt get rid of them, think in representative democracy, not rational. UBI is implemented? good, voters will most likely take it, if presented correctly by the right people. get rid of pensions, welfatre, money for mommies, etc to redistribute it tro everyone? never going to happen, as society deems a single black mom more worthy of handouts than a basement dwelling neet both living on the same ubi would, unironically, be considered unfair
>the stuff you're forced to learn is trash
>history >languages >basic algebra and mathematics >government
Your argument is the most retarded high-school-tier argument in the world
thanks for this its like UBI proponents never went abroad human labor is waaaaaaay cheaper than a robot and will, most likely, be so for the next 25 years thats one generation that will never see UBI implemented out of necessity all this "automation leads to socialism" is so retarded, its insane wishful thinking. you know what automation leads to? cheaper exports to places where there is no automation. that creates opportunitty in those places (read africa, asia, south america) to develop native industries etcetc we are still in the phase where the whole world is homogenized when it comes to roads, railroads, ports, industry standards, etc UBI is already implemented in some developed nations - look up Hartz4 in Germany
muh elites in todays world, where knowledge and ability matter above everything else, you are your own capital sentences like "automation will give us the ability to produce food and other products without needing a person working to produce it" show how little you thought this through. someone needs to develop the automation, you fucking imbecile piece of shit communist that wants to redistribute OTHER PEOPLES abilities and fruits of labor AFTER they have been generated its the old socialist call for violence and a clear indication that this person does not want to build something sustainable
in a representative democracy, you are the technocrat
He probably meant limit shitskin population growth, which seems obvious
someone who is able to profit from war understands more about almost everything than someone who unloads trucks
100% America is the only country that matters if you don’t think so you’re in denial. Whenever the new world order comes into play who do you think will run the entire world? America.
now add that UBI will, most likely, be financed through deficit spending and you have the government literally printing money and handing it to the retards in society thereby the government will fuck over EVERY productive member of society
"only be enough to meet basic needs" until it was raised, again and again, to meet the "rising costs of basic needs" mongoloid socialist mouthbreathers will print money and hand it to the poor, who will get used to it, and demand more, until the whole system collapses by that time, everyone with a brain will have moved their wealth into assets that arent given out freely
but the usa is on the slide. Your power is waning and your reserve currency is on the way out. further you are the most retarded people who genuinely believe you are the exceptionals. the rest of the world just sniggers
get your robot to chop down a tree, right now, for less than it would cost to let a professional do it
yes, youre living in lala fantasy land, my friend
your arguments need like another 50 years to be valid, but its nice to have this discussion in advance
>human labor is waaaaaaay cheaper than a robot and will, most likely, be so for the next 25 years You can't be serious making such a dumb blanket statement.
A human driving a car or really doing any kind of labor where they are sitting in an automated machine using a control console will be more expensive than AI this decade.
The world is not ready for UBI. People are still very much needed for work and I can't see a mass automation replacement occurring any time soon. US has record low unemployment. The best thing to do would be to remove income tax for anyone making under $250,000
not at all, UBI is yet another power grab of the government
well good point when does UBI become a necessity though? because, right now, there are people planting trees, extinguishing fires, and driving cars, arent there? do we UBI once we have the star trek replicator and our economy is officially not driven by scarcity, or do you want to force UBI down peoples throats before that time comes?
exactly thats some sort of 'conditional basic income', like dont pay taxes for the first 50k you make that year
It's obvious at this point that the new reserve currency will be Bitcoin or some other crypto. Also once a civil war starts in America no more policing the world. Europe&Asia will descend into a series of bloody wars to decide who will rule next.
This is dumb not everyone is driven by money. Even with enough money to be taken care of or even well off entrepreneur types will still pursue their passions and create new businesses. Elon musk made a rocket company out of passion, he was already excessively rich from PayPal.
other suggestions? i only posted this thread as a quip to be honest because the thread got archived when i got back home from work. wanted to reply to that user who made that slightly communist remark. i don't really want to bother arguing in this thread because it's difficult for us anons to argue the actual implementation because i doubt we'd have the data. regarding people who are saying businesses would relocate to other countries, it's not like they can just uproot their likely entrenched businesses that easily. so we'd argue that it's still more expensive for them to do so rather than just staying if we tax them, etc etc. or that the countries they'd flee to will have taxes anyway so you'd have to find out if it's cheaper altogether than to just stay and deal with the UBI (if they'd have to be taxed higher, which they prolly won't be). Prolly won't be because contrary to higher prices that would make UBI irrelevant anyway (aka inflation), the largest beneficiaries of the UBI would be the poorest. they are also the ones who'd increase their spending the most, rather than hoarding it. aka they'd be increasing demand for products because they now have the "income" to purchase said products. again, kind of retarded to be arguing this because we don't have numbers to actually determine it. we can only go from experiments that have been conducted but the few (albeit positive) ones are in my opinion inconclusive, more experiments need to be done. it's hard to argue the implementations because of lack of data so at least the "principles" behind it. i don't get how people don't realize that there is a capitalistic angle to the idea, immediately branding it as socialist/communist/what have you when a slew of economists from different ideologies (hayek, friedman, modern contemporaries) argue for it. i dont even know why im typing all this shit, i'll check our charles murray but i'd rather see arguments against it because he seems to be pro UBI. thanks anyway
just lol, you fool every great nation has its time 1500-1600 portugal, spain 1600-1700 dutch, french, english 1700-1800 england (plus all those twats russia japan, etc) 1800-1900 england, france, germany 1900-2000 USA 2000-2100 choyna, asia in general - important mining areas will be africa, australia, etc