Anybody else prefer German to Japanese knives?

Honestly, I have no idea how this shit happens to people?

I have a gyuto in Aogami Super and a chef's knife in 52100 and I have literally never had this happen to me when dicing onions.

>and a chef's knife in 52100
So you bought the Dickman meme knife?

I just got this exact knife for christmas along with a sharpening stone. I'm scared because I've never owned a decent knife before and never used a stone to sharpen a blade.

I only own 2 Japanese knives, and they're for making sushi / sashimi and a cleaver.
Every other knife I own is French carbon steel and Swedish carbon steel. I have 2 German knives, and I never use them. (which is hilarious, because I'm German.) Germans don't make bad knives, but it really depends on what you personally like, how you use the knife, and the level of care you're willing to give it.

What are some general differences you've observed between the four knife types you mentioned?

Buy a knife jig to keep the angle consistent if you're worried, they are Fuck all money for one to use with a stone

Well, let's see....
I can get my French and Swedish knives sharper in general than my Japanese and German knives, but they don't hold their edge as long. (Exception: my japanese Yanagiba, which I only use for fish, so it's very sharp all the time, it's the knife I have to sharpen the least.)
My German knives (both chef knives) are fine for chopping and mincing, but that's all I ever use them for, and that's only when I don't want to use my French carbon steel chef's knives.
The French carbon steel knives are what I use the most. They have the best flex while also being the most multi-purpose and super sharp. The Swedish carbon steel will also get super sharp, but the blades aren't as flexible as the French. I sliced my index finger to the bone once while cleaning a brand new Mora knife (that a Swede brand). BUT, with carbon steel, you have to keep them oiled, and they discolor and form a patina, which some people don't like. Personally I like that. But they (the carbon steel French and Swedish) require the most care of all my knives.

>werx for me u must be stupid noob
Knife threads are the new linux thread

I know it's not German but I use Victorinox and I'm pretty happy with it.

There's no question that German steel is superior to Japanese stuff.
Most 'japanese' knives you see today are actually European improvements onto traditional jap stuff.
You'll find some of the best custom knives and quality Damascus steel has come out of Central Europe.

>kitchen knives
>damascus steel
Please post more opinions about knives, this is very interesting

This is a beauty. The Germans took a Japanese inspired knife and turned it into a work of art.
>proidee.co.uk/?P=200220242&H=gs_pi_uk_pool_kh

What a waste of money.
Germany was the "made in China" of the Sheffield era, back when Sheffield cutlery was what anyone with commons sense bought. Literally just knockoffs of the good stuff, and yet. They were so successful they killed the Sheffield cutlery industry, so, no sense in being "the good stuff" when no one buys it eh?
Now the same thing is happening to them. "Good old common horse sense" people buy German, savvy people buy Japanese.
And idiots buy $1000 acid-etched santokus glazed with silicone to gum up your stones real good.

No. I have a Zwilling Kramer chef's knife. Purchased before the prices went totally crazy.

I was literally asking for someone to describe how this occurs to them and using what kinds of knives in what kind of steel. I'm actually aware that 1095 and shirogami in particular would be more reactive to oxidization than Aogami Super or 52100.

>There's no question that German steel is superior to Japanese stuff.

No. All the best cutlery steels are Scandinavian (AEB-L, 13c26), Japanese (Shirogami, Aogami, Aogami Super, HAP40) or American (1095, 52100). Modern damascus is purely for looks and is inferior to monosteel for forming a cutting edge.

I admit I have never held a Wüsthof IKON, but that knife sure looks like it is brutally tail heavy, especially if you use a pinch grip on the blade, as most advanced and pro cooks will. I don't think any knife of that line that is under 9'' will have an acceptable weight distribution.

If you really want a German knife without bolster, look at the F. Dick "ActiveCut" series (pic) or the Wüsthof "Cordon Bleu" series.

Look up youtube vids about proper sharpening with a waterstone, read up on the subject (An Edge in the Kitchen) and practice with a cheap knife first. I would definitely not recommend taking the stone to your IKON without knowing what you are doing. I fucked up so much nice stuff when I got into sharpening ... that was long before youtube or even internet.

This is like debating between owning an SUV and a sports car. Or going skiing or Surfing. Guess what plebs - you can do it all!
>its 2017 and the kitchen is not a zero sum game. Get a Jap knife and a Kraut knife and move on to what really matters - cooking delicious food.

I have a decent Wusthof that I enjoy for certain tasks.

But I also REALLY enjoy my Shun Santoku.

The bevel is different from the Wusthof and provides a nicer (sharper) cutting edge, though obviously the harder steel can't be used for chopping through bone and similar.

Not the best knife in the world, but it just werks.

Wusthof 4582
>20cm chef knife
for those who can't read it.

>20cm
26cm, autocorrect needs to learn to ignore numbers, god damn.

You made the right choice user. Wustof knives are some of the best I've ever used.

>This is like debating between owning an SUV and a sports car
Terrible analogy, because most people have more than one knives. It would be more like debating between Trek and Gazelle (the bicycle manufacturer). One offers a vast array of products from lightweight high-end TT bikes, to beach cruisers, to downhill MTBs to upscale steel touring bikes to humble flat-bar commuters. The other offers boat anchors in three styles.

From Japan, for every macro scale knife usage (slicing, chopping, all-purpose, small short bladed knife, boning, etc) you then subdivide into multiple preferences (wa handle, japanese handle, machine made, hand made). Then for each macro scale usage you might have several subtle or not so subtle alternate styles (honesuki/garasaki, deba/yo-deba, suji/yanagi, etc) each with its own strengths and weaknesses. Then you have dozens of different common steel types even from a single manufacturer (the hitachi "paper steels" of which there are a good half dozen one for every taste, vg-10, vg-1, 440c, 19c27, 13c26, various powder steels, etc). Then within each of those you have different style finishing and construction (clad, monosteel, honyaki, honkasumi), and the more cosmetic stuff (hammer finish, dimple/granton, suminagashi, kurouchi, etc.

The Japanese cooking knife industry has basically evolved to overwhelm the consumer with options, which, I guess, to some people, is a bad thing, but for a fan of choice, it's great.

On the other hand Germany basically says, you get a chef knife, a slicer, a paring knife, and a bread knife. We'll make each of these in the same style but, from two steels (x50crmov15 for the "good stuff" and 440A for the shitty stuff) and either a cheap plastic handle or an expensive wood handle. That's a lot easier for some people to deal with - don't give me a choice, don't ask me what I cook or how or where, just look at my wallet and tell me exactly what to buy.

A much older design from current Wusthofs.

I wonder how old that fucker is. Probably ~20-30 years.

>or the Wüsthof "Cordon Bleu" series.

Any source for these besides Amazon? Last Wusthof I ordered from Amazon came with a bent tip because the monkeys working the warehouse just sent it loose inside of a big box and the knife poked through the cardboard.

It's a very heavy knife but it works in its favor.

The engineering that went into this knife and the profile it had are second to none. It feels like a extension of your body and it's very fast and accurate despite its weight.

I have a masamoto vg 10 a Mac pro and a knife from chefs knives to go and the ikon honestly makes these it's bitch.

It might be a little soft @ 58 hrc but I find that I can retain a useable edge longer using a steel than the other knives which need to be sharpened on whetstones.

The wusthof is a little thick and splits food vs just slicing through it like the thinner Japanese knives but I like the added heft. It just feel substantial and like a heavy duty professional tool.

If they made these out of a better steel they would destroy the competition.

Does anybody have any Sabatier knives?

Was thinking about picking a set of the vintage 4 star elephant knives up from the best things.

Look classy as fuck

Have you used an Aogami Super knife?

Yes I bought one from chefs knives to go

Why do you ask?

It chips like a mf'r but I'm a big guy and kinda hard on things.

I've got a 10" Wusthof chef knife, and a Misono UX10, was debating on a ~7" Deba or Santoku and was looking at my steel choices.

Generally when you make something hard you make it brittle.

It seems to me that the point of diminishing returns is around 58-59 for stainless.

Carbon cuts better but I like the stainless for sanitary reasons and ease of care.

Just wondered if anyone else had the same preferences. The Japanese knives seem overrated. The German rocking technique seems superior to the French/Japanese gyoto slicing technique at least for me personally.

It's faster and can be just as precise with practice. There's too much wasted movement slicing vs rocking.

I would highly reccomend something from chefs knives to go. The aogami super is a great steel if you take care of it and aren't as rough on things as myself.

You really need to try both styles of knife. It's largely personal preference

>I would highly reccomend something from chefs knives to go
Thanks, I was looking at one or two from them in the $225-350 range. Wasn't sure if that was enough to get something good quality as my only other asian style knife is my MIsono UX10 Gyutou and i'd like to go a step above that for my next blade. Looking around though they appear to be some good options there for Aogami super.

I have several and have been impressed.

You will be surprised by how sharp they can get compared to your current selection of knives.

I would reccomend the santoku first.

The factory sharpening sucked for a $300 knife.

A dull $300 is worse than a razor sharp $20 you really need to become proficient in sharpening and get a ok set of whetstones to get the most out of your knives.

I live in a fairly large city and I know there is a japanese knife shop or two, so I will probably have a look at their selection compared to online prices.

I figure I can ask them for help with sharpening, or worst case pay them the $10-20 to do it for me.

I trust myself with my Wusthof, but high carbon steel seems to be a different animal.

>The factory sharpening sucked for a $300 knife.

The factory sharpening almost always sucks on good knives. It's assumed that you have a preferred profile and you'll put it on there yourself (or if not, that the vendor will put it on upon request)

>preferred profile

What is meant by this? Do you mean that some customers will totally change the angle of the bevel, or what? How would it matter or be different for different people?

Not trying to get contentious, I've heard that before and always been afraid to ask.

Yeah, pretty much. How big is the primary/secondary, what is the angle of each. Of course that's constrained to an extent by the knife type and the steel, but everyone has their own thing.

Some people like a sharper attack angle and will make a point to sharpen and shape the tip to their preference, same with the belly, some people like a flatter belly, others prefer more curve for the rocking motion. etc

All of these can be subtly changed to your
preferences with proper sharpening.

Depending on the knife you can change the bevel as well, though a japanese knife with a single side bevel probably isn't going to be turned into a 50/50 bevel or similar. Though you probably COULD turn a 50/50 bevel into a 60/40 or 70/30

I kind of want to buy a Wusthof Classic/Ikon because they look nice and their budget line is pretty comfy tier from my experience with it

Are they worth it if you already have mid range jap knives though?

Mid-range REAL jap knives? Or like a nicer large production jap knife like a Shun or similar?

Real japanese.

My current workhorse is a VG10 Masakage if that helps.

They'd be nice to have around as a good high quality beater knife, but if you have nicer jap knives, no real reason you would NEED one in your kitchen.

With a German blade, you can rock chop with no worries. With a Japanese blade, rock chopping is generally not recommended.

Ehhh, not really. While the japanese knives TEND to come in a profile that isn't great for rocking, you can certainly shop around until you find one that does, and they work wonderfully for those purposes. It's simply not traditional japanese so you need to look a bit harder for a Santoku or Gyouto with more curve.

>With a Japanese blade, rock chopping is generally not recommended.
lolwut

What do you mean, "lolwut," have you never owned one?

no I mean where did you get that idea from? what makes you trust their opinion? what exactly do you think would go wrong? the ancestor spirits will disapprove?

Well, I mean, it has nothing to do with the fact that I've personally chipped two knives rock chopping soft vegetables on wood cutting boards, nor the fact that prominent knife enthusiasts recommend against rock-chopping Japanese knives, nor the fact that there is totally unanimous agreement about the topic in the chef community, nor the fact that the owner of Japanese Knife Imports personally called me when I bought a Japanese knife from him as a first time customer from him. No, it's totally the ancient spirits whispering in my butthole that imparted the wisdom to me. Dipshit.

Why does Chefs knives to go have SEVERAL Gyuto and Santoku's that he specifically mentions being good for rock chopping in his overview videos?

I think it's only a problem for the higher end carbon steels tbqh. What were you using?

I don't rock chop often, but I've never chipped a jap blade doing it...hell I've had a mexican dude smack my knife into the board pretty rough and it held up fine.

>Chefs knives to go
>expert in Japanese knives
Lol.

lol u mad

maybe just maybe, you should refrain from rock chopping with usubas and shit like that? I mean I've been rock chopping for like ten years with my tojiro and I've never had a chipping issue. it's not even considered a particularly good rock chopper as gyutos go, but it certainly gets the job done

Yea, how dare I assume a 40+ year old with 15+ years working with japanese chef knives know ANYTHING about them.

You sound like you like attention.

You sound like you're talking out of your ass.

Being good or bad for rocking has everything to do with the knife profile, use whatever steel you want, high carbon has a higher chance of chipping, but rock chopping on a wooden board ISN'T going to cause chipping on any well made high carbon blade unless you're a fucking Silverback gorilla slamming the blade onto the board.

>You sound like you're talking out of your ass.

Hmm

Sharpening is one of those things that you really should try and learn yourself.

It's very rewarding and connects you to your tools.

You can pick up a set of king whetstones cheap. I use a 220/800/1000/4000/8000 and then a leather strop or sharpening steel for the stainless.

You can get by with just the 1000/6000 stone like $40 on amazon

how many posts before this guy starts screaming "cuck"

kitchenknifeforums.com/showthread.php/30575-Videos-of-proper-Gyuto-technique

And for the guys posting about rock chopping with Japanese gyutos with a flat angle that's how I chipped both of my Japanese knives. I was using a 2" thick end grain maple cutting board.

Instead of the gradual rolling profile of a German knife the French styled Japanese knives are more flat and combined with the very hard and brittle material tend to impact into the cutting board when rock chopping. You lose the fluid motion rocking that the German knives have.

It's just not what they're designed to do in most cases. You can't get the correct motion for properly rock chopping with the French style while the German style is ok at slicing so it seems to be slightly more versatile to me.

see

I hate to get in the middle of a good slapfight, but I don't think you can reduce the issue to can you rock chop with Japanese knives.

Rock chopping is hard on a knife edge because of the lateral load placed on the apex as you try to move it across the board while parts of the apex are still in contact with the board.

Whether this lateral stress causes visible chipping depends on the force used, the thickness behind the apex, the apex stability of the steel (resistance to microscopic chipping and rolling at the apex), the toughness of the steel, and the hardness (harder increased apex stability but decreases macro scale toughness and vice versa).

That is to say that a laser profiled gyuto in Shirogami at 64 HRC is going to react very differently to rock chopping than a thicker geometry blade in the same steel at 61 HRC would.

It's also complicated because purer carbon steel knives at higher hardness are going to resist micro-chipping from slicing contacts with a cutting board better, but a softer knife would be less likely to chip in rock chopping, but more likely to micro-roll in both rock chopping and slicing contacts.

I will tell you this: If I wanted to be able to rock chop but I didn't want a European geometry or sub 60 HRC blade, I would look for something in Shirogami (or 1095 by a North American custom maker) at around 61-62 HRC. If the HT is done right, this is close to the optimum trade-off for toughness vs apex stability in pure carbon steel.

Yeah, that's a good point. You will want to make sure the blade has the proper belly for it as well.

Yeah i've been saying all along that the japanese knives are NOT traditionally meant for rocking, that doesn't mean you can't find some that will do a good rock chop though.

I also agree on steel choice, white steel #1 or #2 (shirogami) will be better than Aogami for a rock chopping blade.

Why is it that when these threads get derailed, it's always by a CKTG shill?

it doesn't matter what the profile is or how smoothly you rock, that kind of board contact should not cause a chipping issue on a gyuto unless there was either a defect or you did something to the edge geometry that you shouldn't have, like you tried to put an 8 degree edge on it

>should not

It's because of lateral force on the edge. If you could rock chop in a perfectly plumb up and down motion, then there would be no issue, but since we are humans, there is likely going to be a moment when we have the knife down, have force pressing it into the wood or rubber of the cutting board (which grabs the apex), and then we exert a small amount of lateral force on the blade, causing microchipping on the edge.

You seem to get hung up on details, like how soft wood couldn't POSSIBLY damage hard steel due to the difference in the hardness. It's like those autists who repeat "jet fuel can't melt steel beams." Just because you slept through science class doesn't make you entitled to have an opinion about these subjects. There is more than one way to dull a blade, just like you don't have to actually melt structural beams in a building to weaken them enough to cause the building to collapse.

so why is it that in 10 years of rock chopping I've never had an issue from that? hmm? must be because I didn't pay attention in science class.

>I don't understand how people can possibly generalize about all Chinese people being short when Yao Ming exists? Please help, my brain doesn't understaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaannnnddddddddd.

>PS buy from chef knifes to go ;P

more than one person arguing with you, chip boy

in the future, send your knives to get sharpened by someone with common sense, whatever you're doing to those edges is obviously not working very well

I have chipped factory edges, friendo.

you bought a bad knife then

>all the knifes sold by chef knifes to go are good
>all your knifes r bad :(
>ps, please patronize my website

It's also quite possible to get a factory edge that is burned since lots of makers still power sharpen their knives without active liquid cooling. In that case the issue should disappear after a few sharpenings.

Also, is it really that hard to understand that it depends on the specifics of the individual knife?

I have a Kohetsu 210mm gyuoto in Aogami Super and I would NEVER even consider rock chopping with it. I specifically bought it because it was the single most extreme laser in a high hardness carbon steel that CKTG had at the time, but the corollary of that is not subjecting the apex to lateral loads.

People here are tying to actually have an educated and informative discussion on a knife thread on Veeky Forums. It's literally a goddamned Christmas miracle. Can you NOT try to ruin it with reductionist shitposting maybe?

wtf is your hangup with that place, I bought most of my knives at korin before jap knives were even cool, sorry mark richmond fucked your mom but it's really none of my business

>extreme laser
yeah, I'll buy that. like, my kamagata usuba that I bought because it looked cool, I've chipped that from board contact, but I was asking for it.

but "japanese knives are not good for rock chopping" as a blanket statement? I think if you buy an infamous ultra laser with an 8 degree edge you *probably* know what you're getting yourself into. if you're looking at gyutos in general, that probably means you're looking at stuff like ux10s and mac pros and suisin inox and so on. none of those are going to have an issue sustaining damage from board contact unless you're doing something really outrageous.

>e a Kohetsu 210mm gyuoto in Aogami Super and I would NEVER even consider rock chopping with it.
Kohetsu knives are garbage. You need to talk to Mark at Chef Knives to Go and he can set you up with a superior Richmond knife that will never chip like your koheSHITsu

are you the guy who keeps spamming mycotoxins in the coffee threads? get some therapy man.

>still thinks "board contact" is even an issue
You don't read. I bet you also think that 9/11 was a controlled demolition.

Anyone here afford a ZDP189 knife?

A Gyuto is looking to be $450-600+

Oh I definitely knew what I was getting myself into. I bought that knife specifically because it was the thinnest geometry I could get at the highest hardness I could get in a relatively pure carbon steel.

If I could find someone to make one, I would get a custom made in 1095 or Shogami #1 at full martensite hardness (~67 HRC, requiring multiple quenches and cryo to achieve) to absolutely maximize the apex stability, but I sure as hell wouldn't try to rock chop with it!

Maybe you should google Kohetsu before making yourself look like a complete fool...

Seems a bit expensive. Why do you want a gyuto made out of ZDP-189?

>shitposting intensifies
just start screaming cuck and get it over with

Don't. ZDP-189 is an idiotic choice for a kitchen knife.

ZDP had high wear resistance but wear resistance is totally worthless in a knife that primarily wears from cutting board contacts.

Actually, the carbide volume that increases wear resistance directly lowers apex stability which is the very thing that matters for wear resitance against a cutting board.

Why, so you won't feel like you're the only one being irrational? I made a reasonable argument. Respond to it or fuck off.

Seems like the only steel that is stainless with that high carbon content.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with ZDP189. It's just really expensive.

Yeah that's kinda what i'm seeing, only real downsides are it's fairly brittle because of the ~66 HRC.

But assuming you aren't attacking bone and know what you're doing with it, seems like it would make for an amazing knife.