War and Peace Read-through: DAY ONE

Alright, will try for next thread.

I don't really think he's an asshole. He seems civil enough in his encounters with Pierre. Just someone with difficulty fitting into high society. His conversation with his wife does seem a little asshole-ish definitely and does show him in a negative light, but, as he says, (whether this justifies his outburst towards her is another question entirely) she's very much a symbol for him of the life of inconsequentiality he's been dragged into by marriage.

He's just bored with life.

Took me a loooong time just to get to chapter 7, but that's probably a personal issue. I'm practically using the French sections to git gud at muh romance.
Andrei is red billed xDDDDDD

He's taut. It will be interesting to see how he springs when the war starts.

Seriously I loved that start. Set Vasili up as the insincere fucknugget and then it turned out Annette was worse. Then you've got Pierre, who just swishes in as /r9k/ the hero. But this seems like the kind of novel without a hero.

Tolstoi's just generally excellent at characterisation.

I think it's no coincidence that the two more intellectual characters, Pierre and Andrei, are the one's that fit least well into the society lifestyle. In Andrei's case (remember the book referenced in relation to him is Caesar's Commentaries) there is a streak of Romanticism that's his real motivation for joining the army. The world of high society for him represents an obstacle to achieving these fantasies of being a "Great Man".

You can see what Tolstoy is setting up here (judging by his opinion of "Great Men" like Caesar and Napoleon).

I don't really know what Pierre's deal is. The reference to Rousseau must be important somehow, and his autistic rant at the party about Napoleon. But it's too early (at least for me) to really get a handle on his character.

I think you've got the two mixed up. It's Pierre that reads Commentaries, after all. And he's continuing.

Pierre's the one with the aspirations. Pierre's the one who's going to change the world. Pierre's the bastard, the guy who goes second, the guy who isn't doing anything. Andrei is moving, but he is the opposite -- he is aimless.

But I'm only halfway through.

Got this one from the library today, the Bloemen/Wiebes translation is supposed to be pretty good. It has the original French with translations in the footnotes and some maps and indexes and stuff so that's cool.

I read Anna Karenina before but not War and Peace. Starting tonight.

> not reading it in the original russian

Plebs.

Just finished Sun and Steel, will start now.

Dutch is a magnificently stupid language.

Pierre is the one that reads the Commentaries but he takes it off the shelf in Andrei's study.

I think there is an effort made by Tolstoy to associate Pierre with Rousseau (the vicomte immediately pinning him as a Rousseauian once he finished explaining his support for Napoleon) and with the Revolution, and Andrei with the "Great Man Theory" and with fantasies of being a figure like Napoleon or Caesar

OP here. Is this an okay time to make these threads?

No, he pins Pierre with the Great Man theory -- his extended faux pas avec le grand homo was all about it -- and it is from Pierre's perspective that we receive such description of Andrei. Don't forget: Andrei *doesn't like philosophy*. He is "hard working"; he has "strength of will"; he is a -man of action-...according to Pierre.

Pierre is the thinker who wishes he was a doer. He doesn't climb on the window ledge -- but by God does he want to when the dashing duellist does it. And he looks up to Andrei.
A bit earlier -- say, 7pm -- would be perfect for me, as a Bong.

First time reading it.
I'm chapter IX, will finish it later.
Could you make a chapter-based calendar, user? I think it would be good for the people using a different edition.

And Fiffty pages per day is cool.

I'm still to deciding if i will read the book in a portuguese translation (from russian) or the english one. The book is not hard to read, has a good pace in the first pages. Really not having any sort of problem with the book. Maybe the size of the book is what make people go away.

>Maybe the size of the book is what make people go away.
gz u figured out literature

Are we going to have a discord or some other platform for discussion, or just keep it to threads?

>Pierre, arriving before the others, went into Prince Andrei’s study like one quite at home, and from habit immediately lay down on the sofa, took from the shelf the first book that came to his hand (it was Caesar’s Commentaries) and resting on his elbow, began reading it in the middle.

>'How plainly all these young people wear their hearts on their sleeves!’ said Anna Mikhailovna, pointing to Nikolai as he went out. ‘Cousinage—dangereux voisinage,’ she added.

Anyway, Ippo/lit/ is a fucking cunt.

Hoe is die versie? Of was de Engelse gewoon niet verkrijgbaar in de OBA?

I'm having real trouble keeping up with all the characters, but was too lazy to write character notes from the beginning so I'm pretty much fucked at this point

That's a fair theory. I can believe that. But I think the subjectivity of Tolstoy's characterization has been exaggerated because of his influence on Modernist writers like Joyce and Woolf. Sure, it's a description of Andrei, relative to Pierre, but it's not, to my mind, a misleading or inaccurate one, as it might be in a 20th Century novel. Andrei is a man of action, or at least has the fantasy of being one; Pierre may notice this because of its relationship with what he lacks, but I think he is right in his observation.

Yeah, I feel completely enlightened.

I was just gonna keep it to threads t b h

>Those three got hold of a bear somewhere, put it in a carriage, and set off with it to visit some actresses! The police tried to interfere and what did the young men do? They tied a policeman and the bear back to back and put the bear into the Moika Canal!

just a prank bro

>Tolstoi's just generally excellent at characterisation
fuck its such a cliche but this. The whole fully-fleshed-out-character-in-two-lines thing is absolutely true.

The man's a magician when it comes to setting up not just individual characters, but what the characters mean to each other, like Pierre's insecurity and envy around Andrei

>Pierre's insecurity and envy around Andrei

That's not what I got. Or at least it's far too negative for what I got. I'd call it admiration.

Andrei comes across as patronising in his talks with Pierre. Though he's obviously weak, Pierre seems good-natured in everything he's done so far

who mass market paperback here

I'm around 4/5 of the way through the book, just wanted to jump in and say I'll be paying attention to this thread, interesting to see what people think. There is a passage in this book which I think is possibly the best thing I've ever read. Hope you all enjoy.

hoe is de vertaling in het nederlands?

Jesus Christ get your bizzaro gnomespeak out of this thread

*Bizarro, vertragen

reading a finnish translation myself, have enjoyed it so far. Excited to participate in discussion as we continue (:

I really do think we should come use some other platform too, discord is fine, some other guy mentioned good reads but i dont really know how groups work there. I dont even have an account but if its good for group reading i would not mind creating one

+1

Why did Pierre want to get into the same challenge as the guy which drank a rum bottle in the window? just to show off or for the money?

>Could you make a chapter-based calendar, user? I think it would be good for the people using a different edition.

This, please.

I want to join, but I'm a poorfag who didn't prepare. Can someone post the epub?

a.uguu.se/afTQAOYNCsvv_WarandPeace-LeoTolstoy.epub

Here's the epub for the Oxford World Classics ed:
www88.zippyshare.com/v/1X0E4NHw/file.html

And PDF (for page numbers):
www4.zippyshare.com/v/nqcT8Kt8/file.html

That's the Richard Pevear translation. One being read here is the Oxford World Classics one.

Not for the money at all. In his conversation with Prince Andrew, it's revealed at Pierre is actually quite well off, being allowed to roam around while he considers his future career which will be supported by his father. In chapter 12 it's revealed that he's the favored [illegitimate] son of that family. What's more likely is that he wanted to show off; he lacks the qualities that he loves so much in Andrew and will even commit dangerous deeds in an effort to become respected. Also, in that scene Pierre actually says that he'll take the bet without any actual money on it.

I agree with half of your first sentence there. Even at the soiree everyone at least appears to forgive Pierre due to his naive good-naturedness, in spite of his talk. I almost feel like if we were to just judge him from these first 50 pages alone, we would think that envy is below him. Insecurity, on the other hand, I don't think so. Remember that someone at the soiree (I forget who) just about mocks Andrew behind his back, saying that he feels bad for his (Andrew's) wife because he carries himself like a monarch, and that this is the same Andrew that is admired so much by Pierre, and that this is the same Pierre who was willing to do something very just to show off.

After reading it, I think the main themes presented so far are 1) an atmosphere of impending war (if that is a theme), 2) the inauthentic (artificial) posturing needed to navigate society, and 3) a desire to make a name for oneself by committing daring deeds.

#1 I don't consider necessary to justify at all.
#2 I think is pretty clear after being well developed already, but I'll provide some things that stuck out to me. Andrew moans about having a wife and having to attend to countless trivialities. Near the end of chapter 12, Vera smiles which gives her "an unnatural, and therefore unpleasant, expression." I'd like to infer this as relating not only to Vera's looks, but to the way people interact in this high society as well, and that should be perfectly reasonably given the many times someone makes an "artificial" smile, or otherwise pretends.
#3 is not made fully clear yet, but I see it the most in Pierre right now. Andrew is tired of life and longs to go to war. Maybe that's just to escape boredom, but maybe he also actually wants to make a name for himself. I'm partial to the latter due to what he said to Pierre about how, once you have a wife, you'll never really obtain any great achievements. For Pierre, I think his little incident at the window and wanting to show off (and his consideration of going to war, just like his idol Andrew) shows that he too longs for heroic deeds to be attributed to him.

Here's the main question I have moving forward: Will Pierre's desire for glory and excellence of character (which is what he admires in Andrew) ultimately lead to his downfall, or will he come to prove himself and become more confident?

I usually read in English on my ereader, but for 1600 pages of a "difficult" book I'd rather read Dutch if the translation is good.

It's clearly the best Dutch translation and most critics think of it pretty highly (e.g. www.tijdschrift-filter.nl/jaargangen/2007/141/eindelijk-een-echte-vertaling-van-oorlog-en-vrede-46-49.aspx ). It's slightly more literal than Maude but less than P+V. Awkward sentences seem pretty rare so far.

>Le charmant Hippolyte was surprising by his extraordinary resemblance to his beautiful sister, but yet more by the fact that in spite of this resemblance he was exceedingly ugly.

Someones gotta make a "standing in the corner at a party" meme for Hippolyte. I'll probably do it in an hour

Wait we have an official translation? I thought this was free-for-all

Only up to chapter 3 right now, but does anyone know why everyone speaks in French? I understand it was fashionable, but isn't it strange they're speaking the language of the "enemy"?

>tolstoy could do 80 pullups at 70
>i can't do one at 19
JUST

russians are francoboos

classy russians spoke french like romans spoke greek

probably b/c it was the language of western europes royal courts for centuries and russian nobility desperately wanted to fit in

>i can't do one at 19
...........

France isn't the enemy, it's the French revolution the thing they don't like.
They still are flattering the french nobility that emigrated to Russia. At least, that's what i understand.

>France isn't the enemy, it's the French revolution the thing they don't like.

But Napoleon had declared himself Emperor at this time, hasnt he? Did the French aristocracy flee to Russia?

>Both were talking and listening too eagerly and naturally, which was why Anna Pavlovna disapproved.

Fucking nobility baka

Well, in the first chapters there's this french guy named Vicomte de Mortemart on the party. He is french nobility.

And the expansion of Napoleon was seen as the spread of Revolution ideals through Europe.

Audiobook magnets (google them for the file if you need it)

Frederick Davidson reading: afddd1893f2ef7d52c296323daaae33e7ada4878
Alexander Scourby reading: c56063307dfb59ef87f9aed222c06ef296723ebe

Anyone have the Naxos reading by Neville Jason, or the unabridged BBC dramatic reading? I couldn't find them anywhere. Both appear to be of the Maude translation.

Higher up they said it was to be the Oxford World Classics ed translated by Louise and Aylmer Maude.

I don't think it has to be a specified edition, it's just a recommendation. Maybe OP could clarify.

Did this sound just as retarded in Tolstoy's time? I suppose without tv or the internet people have to pass time somehow.

Yeah, picked up that Montemart was French, but Anna and Prince Vasily were speaking the language before he arrived.

I'm reading the exact same one.

>just realized Ippolit was holding up opera glasses the whole time

whaddafuq

Can anyone respond to this with their thoughts, please?

I have 34 pages to go then I might try.

I'm listening to the audiobook. Can someone tell me what they last thing that happened so I can catch up? That, or tell me what chapters we're reading to each day

Thank you, very pleased to hear it. I'll keep an eye on the thread.

I'll probably be finishing the book tomorrow, so it'll be nice to read these threads and reflect. I read the pages mentioned in this thread like 3 months ago, so it's not very fresh in the mind.

Any edition of the Maude translation will do. The Oxford World Classics edition is for page numbers to match OP.

Which audiobook are you listening to?

audible.com/pd/Classics/War-and-Peace-Volume-1-Audiobook/B002V5CULY

Do you have an mp3 you could share, or are you using Audible for it? Free trial? Monthly? $35?

It's on audible. I'm on chapter 16

just lmao at this manlet killing a man cuz his groupie got snatched

I think it was Madame Pavlovna that said Andrei carried himself like a monarch; If that is not the case, then it was the narrator

I'm rather drunk on vodka right now (gotta immerse yourself) so take what I say with grains of salt. I think you're quite correct on saying that the themes so far are how one in moder (at the time) Society composes oneself with war, and to a further abstracted sense, political upheavea (Bonparte being seen as a usurper to Monarchy; as Pierre said, he preserved the good things about the Revolution while purging the bad) However, there are still personal grievences shown by the chracters, most notable Pierre and Andrei. Pierre wants what Andrei has, while the opposite is implied (Andrei wanting Pierre's ability to choose) and both being unhappy with the cirumstajnces that the other posses. So far it is unclear to me if Pierre indeed lusts for glory as you say, nbut he recognizes and admires Great People (such as he said Bonaparte was great an as the soiree, much to Anna's and no dobut the Viscount's cahgrin), more so that he in his youth is lost as many young men are. Naturally, Young Men want to be great, but being aware of and relizing the Path ot Greatness are two different things, and his 'showing off' is another symptom of Youth. But we shall see as the novel goes on. High Society and its artificial atitudes might be more of a light motiff and a observation of Russia at the time (I dont know if the aristocracy's behavior in the 19th Century was the same as at the time Tolstoi wrote the book in the 20th Century) but it is almost comically apparent.

To the OP: thanks for getting this together, so far it's a wonderfful book that I would have put of for reaidng other Great Russian Books (more Dostoevskiy, more Chekhov) but so far Tolstoy is a an aboslute -master- of Human Beingness and character wirting, I am only happy that the book is 1000+ pages long.

Time for more Stoli

>and both being unhappy with the cirumstajnces that the other posses

meant both being unhappy with the circumstances that the other desires lol

Thank you very much for replying to my post. I think the most valuable thing you've added to the discussion here (if you don't mind my choosing one thing) is saying that Prince Andrew is a little envious(?) or jealous(?) of Pierre being able to choose his life. It's clear enough that Andrew is not satisfied with feeling trapped; trapped in a boring marriage attending boring parties and talking to boring people. At one point, if I recall correctly, he tells Pierre that he likes him because he's the only lively (or was it "natural" or something similar?) person that goes in those circles, and so I think this is good justification for saying that Andrew is a bit jealous of Pierre.

One question here: What is the meaning of Andrew "expressing a sense of his own superiority" over Pierre during their discussion in Andrew's little library? Does it counter your argument? Here is the relevant passage, coming from chapter 8:

“My part is played out,” said Prince Andrew. “What’s the use of talking about me? Let us talk about you,” he added after a silence, smiling at his reassuring thoughts.
That smile was immediately reflected on Pierre’s face.
“But what is there to say about me?” said Pierre, his face relaxing into a careless, merry smile. “What am I? An illegitimate son!” He suddenly blushed crimson, and it was plain that he had made a great effort to say this. “Without a name and without means... And it really...” But he did not say what “it really” was. “For the present I am free and am all right. Only I haven’t the least idea what I am to do; I wanted to consult you seriously.”
Prince Andrew looked kindly at him, yet his glance—friendly and affectionate as it was—expressed a sense of his own superiority.

Native here. Good thread! This is my first attemt to read those. You may have seen my post about the Death Of Ivan Ilych in recent age/location/book thread.

Awesome to have you! I am reading in English, and have read Ivan Ilyich in English before, though I missed your thread.

Are any of Tolstoy's works read in Russian schooling? Do many Russians read War and Peace, or is it seen as an arduous tome as it is in the West?

>/vip/ open
>no Veeky Forums pass
either the pic is fake or you're a sad little man

lel

Funny thing is I had no idea what this board contains. Just checkin'

W&P, sadly, became just a wank cultural object that everyone knows, but very few read. We don't even celebrate his birthday, unlike Lermontov (Putin is fond of this guy).

We do learn his works in school, but mostly shorter novels and chapters from bigger ones.

>Thank you very much for replying to my post. I think the most valuable thing you've added to the discussion here (if you don't mind my choosing one thing) is saying that Prince Andrew is a little envious(?) or jealous(?) of Pierre being able to choose his life. It's clear enough that Andrew is not satisfied with feeling trapped; trapped in a boring marriage attending boring parties and talking to boring people. At one point, if I recall correctly, he tells Pierre that he likes him because he's the only lively (or was it "natural" or something similar?) person that goes in those circles, and so I think this is good justification for saying that Andrew is a bit jealous of Pierre.

During the soiree it was mentioned that Pierre and the Abbe (is that french for Abbot? Would an Abbot being hanging out with Aristocracy?) were conversing eagerly and naturally, so you're quite right in observing that Pierre is the most natural of Andrei's social circle (I'm guessing that Pierre is college aged, having just finished education with another abbe; upon further reflection I think this goes to show Pierre was just acting as young men do when he took up the rum bottle bet after the fact, trying to impress his peers: he was just acting his age, really) and Anna, a socially fluid creature, sought to break this interaction up. This to me says that Russian High Society values Politeness and Correctness over genuine discussion and passionate opionons; Andrei has entered this circle of Russian life too early by marrying and being tied to this kind of faux socialization (Something was mentioned along the lines of how his wife could not exist without these soirees/parties, perhaps implying that she was bred to be an Aristocratic Wife from the start, not learning how to hold ideals in the same way that Pierre and Andrei do) and as such is envious of Pierre's naievete. Maybe he is jealous of Pierre's naive approach to Correct Society or jealous of his ability to choose what life/profession to undertake. Either way I think those two are friends that covet what the other has while failing to recognize what they posses themselves.

As for your question about Andrei "expressing a sense of his own superiority", I think it comes from two things: Firstly, Andrei is a Prince while Pierre as a count, offcially it is already cemented who is higher along the Russian Social Ladder, further enforced by Andrei's wife saying how all the ladies express awe at Andrei's presence at the Emperor's(?) court. Practically, this appears in Pierre's naievete countered with Andrei's persona of cool, detached behavior at social events. Even if it is only affected, Andrei has more experience in these kind of manners. To summate, Pierre is more ideological and hopeful, whereas Andrei is more practical and knowledgeably withen their environment/social circle. So I dont think that phrase counters my argument, in fact it strengthens it.

And again, I'm pretty drunk atm, so please excuse any typos and inconsistencies in logic, I'll try to rectify/order my thinking in the morning.

Damn good book so far tho.

Thanks for organizing this.

This is my first time reading this, so far SO good. Like many have already said, his character development is most definitely informed of that nuanced realism he mentions as his main goal of expression, at least this is what i gathered from the his quotes on it that i read in the introduction.

So far, Pierre and Prince Andrei interest me most. the vivid description of Pierre's social retardation given through the perspective of hostess Anna Pavlovna, who, in vain, tried to minimize the collateral autism of his pro-Napoleonic rant made me think of how many times the more socially perceptive of my friends/family have done the exact same thing to conceal my own power level. Pierre is me, and i mean that in the most underage way possible. god this passage describing a lapse in pierre's conduct really nails a shitty part of myself i didn't really know how to put into words until now, anyone feel this?

>‘It would be so good to go to Kuragin’s,’ thought he. But he immediately recalled his promise to Prince Andrei not to go there. Then, as happens to people of weak character, he desired so passionately once more to enjoy that dissipation he was so accustomed to, that he decided to go. The thought immediately occurred to him that his promise to Prince Andrei was of no account, because before he
gave it he had already promised Prince Anatole to come to his gathering; ‘besides,’ thought he, ‘all such “words of honour” are conventional
things with no definite meaning, especially if one considers that by tomorrow one may be dead, or something so extraordinary may happen to one that honour and dishonour will be all the same!’ Pierre often indulged in reflections of this sort, nullifying all his decisions and intentions. He went to Kuragin’s.
>nullifying all his decisions and intentions
heart sank reading this, fuck.

As for Andrei, I don't have much to add to what's already been said by and .

sure i'll have a go.
>Here's the main question I have moving forward: Will Pierre's desire for glory and excellence of character (which is what he admires in Andrew) ultimately lead to his downfall, or will he come to prove himself and become more confident?

the question kind of implies that Pierre has somewhere to fall from in the first place, I'm not so sure about that. Sure, Pierre may have potential, but so far he's already proven himself capable of throwing it all away for the sake of some drunken bear-related mischief. i think he's caught between his noble ideals, represented by the benevolent figure of Prince Andrew, and his youthful naiveté .
Paradoxically, I think maybe both his desire to earn glory and his potential for foolishness stem from his distaste for convention, his future seems unsure.
it wasn't Madame Pavlovna who said this, it was the viscount. He said this to Ippolit as they departed her reception.

How about Dosty?

>(is that french for Abbot? Would an Abbot being hanging out with Aristocracy?)
according to my dictionary the title encompasses many roles within the church, and yes i wouldn't imagine it would be that uncommon for an abbot or cleric of the time to be soliciting with nobility.
throughout most of human history the religious leaders in society had just as much say, if not more than at times, as the ruling elite.

1 novella by teachers choice and the other is C&P.

Nice! I'm going to be reading it in Russian too, which will make the 50 pages a day a lot harder, but we'll see how it goes. I speak Russian pretty decently, but have never read any serious literature in it

If I have serious struggles on some things can I ask you for help? At least it's Tolstoy, who doesn't write too bad.

t. latvia

I suppose I'm just coming off the idea of a Franciscan or a Dominican abbot, who I dont really see commingling with aristocratic noblity.

Hold on, is Pierre the son of Catherine the Great?

>The conversation was on the chief topic of the day: the illnes of the wealthy and celebrated beau of Catherine the Great's day, Count Bezukhov...

no, pierre's dad is a contemporary of Catherine the great, beau is like gentleman in this context

I never thought I'd read any, but I've just finished the first 51 pages of War & Peace. I love the foibles he gives each character, and the cliches he summarizes of some of them, like the one guy who sums everything up to be just "splendid, splendid". I also liked the imagery of Anna Pavlovna managing the party like it were a machine that needed the proper care and maintenance to keep running at full capacity. It's very hard to tell where the story is going to go, but it's been interesting enough that I look forward to reading the next chapter.

I knew absolutely nothing about W&P going in, other than that it's a long book by Tolstoy. I have read The Death of Ivan Ilyich before.

He's the illegitimate son of Count Kiril Vladimirovich Bezukhov. That's what I got in my notes.

Just found this page: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_War_and_Peace_characters

Were you required to read all of C&P for school?

For my schooling in the US, we read no Tolstoy and no Dostoyevsky. I think the only foreign novel we read was translations of the Odyssey, and that includes college (though I only took 2 English/Humanities classes in college, and they were not focused on literature).

Alright, I read 'beau' as 'lover'. Would certainly have made things weird.

I read through chapter 11 on page 51.

Words read on day 1: 20,068
Time taken: 50 minutes
Total words in book: 563,286
Approximate total reading time: 24 hours

the term Lingua Franca (french tongue?) came from all of the high nobility across Europe speaking french. Even during WWI, if you look at the medals the Germans gave to their soldiers, they had french names