Right lads, that’s day three and the beginning of the war section of the book. A pretty big change from the society scenes of the last two days, but in other ways not too different. So far we’ve had:
>Kuzutov inspecting the army >The defeat of the Austrian army >The purse incident >The bridge scene
Now, the change of scene, accompanied by a change of tone, gives us a lot to talk about. We’re introduced to a whole host of new characters. What’s our read on Kutuzov for example?
There seems to be a switch from French to German being used. Is this important?
How do we feel about the shift in conversational tone between this and the last section? The vulgarity of the soldiers contrasts pretty heavily with the propriety of society conversation desu, so what do we make of that?
Also, your man OP isn’t going to be able to make a thread tomorrow night, cuz he’s got a night out on the town with some friends (No worries, we’ll tie a policeman to a bear if we can find one). Which means someone else is gonna have to do it. So it’d probably be best to sort that out in this thread.
Handy Principal Characters and Guide to Pronunciations from the OWC ed. user posted in the other thread
Nathan Walker
4 questions/comments to you guys:
What are some of the major themes we can see now that we’re in a War section? Nicholas Rostov’s horror at war contrasted with the peace of nature is evidently one, as is courage under fire (the other, more experienced hussars getting the stretchers, firing the bridge, etc.). Is that it?
What is the actual role of people attached to a high ranking officer? At the inspection there are some officers attached to the general(?) (of which Andrew was a part) that were laughing and joking around and talking while following him. Why?
Why would Russians have antipathy to the Austrians? ("Besides it was pleasant, after his reception by the Austrians, ... to speak [at least] with a Russian who would, he supposed, share the general Russian antipathy to the Austrians which was then particularly strong.
Where in Napoleon’s campaign are we? Is this near the beginning of his first campaign before being exiled, or in the middle? I’m guessing it’s the first because the start of the novel discusses the possibility and outbreak of the war, but was it going on before Russia got involved?
So far I'm very much enjoying it. Tolstoy is an incredible illustrator of small scenes.
Brandon Adams
Andrei definitely seems to have landed on his feet, even though his father didn't think much of the position. I wonder if Andrei even gave that letter to Kutuzov. _____ If I'm allowed to say something negative about the great man, I think Tolstoi does this kind of thing too often:
>And Kutuzov smiled in a way that seemed to say, ‘You are quite at liberty not to believe me and I don’t even care whether you do or not, but you have no grounds for telling me so. And that is the whole point.‘ _____ >tfw you've been feeling smug because you can read French and then a passage in German appears out of fucking nowhere _____ >it's a Nikolai chapter
Life in the Hussars seems quite different than in the infantry. The hierarchy seems less strictly defined. Nikolai's status as a Count seems to matter more than the fact that he's a cadet. Not sure I understand how this whole thing played out. Nikolai publicly accused Telyanin, the Colonel called him a liar, he called the Colonel a liar, but Telyanin is being discharged?
We've definitely got some War now. We get a good sense of the mindset of the Russians. News of the Austrians' defeat was met with glee because it meant the fight was coming to them. Even Andrei feels a wave of excitement at the prospect, though he sees other things in their future too. I really enjoyed that passage immediately after Nikolai gets off his horse at the bridge, reality hit him like a cannonball alright. The soldiers' bravado will be under threat from here on but it'll be interesting to see if it's the fear of engagement or the cowardice of retreat that they feel most keenly.
I know it's a bit silly to talk about historical facts as spoilers but I'm going to have to stop checking the endnotes if they're just going to summarise what's going to happen in the next few chapters
Gutenberg version of Maude translation. It has in-line French translations, so no need to consult footnotes, but lacks any front matter or appendix, so you still may need to consult the OWC edition: gutenberg.org/ebooks/2600
If anyone wants the epub for a different English edition, or wants the Neville Jason audiobook in mp3, let me know.
Justin Martin
>Life in the Hussars seems quite different than in the infantry. The hierarchy seems less strictly defined.
That's for sure. A really interesting contrast was set up here. The inspection of the infantry shows how regimented they are, whereas even a basic cadet in the Hussars is openly conversing and living with his commanding officer.
>Nikolai publicly accused Telyanin, the Colonel called him a liar, he called the Colonel a liar, but Telyanin is being discharged?
Completely agreed that this was difficult to make out, but I think you're on the money with what happened.
Mason Collins
>What is the actual role of people attached to a high ranking officer? At the inspection there are some officers attached to the general(?) (of which Andrew was a part) that were laughing and joking around and talking while following him. Why?
Any number of reasons, but fellow commanders seems the most likely. Armies had to coordinate with attached units of cavalry, skirmishers, cannons, and supply transports, all with their own bosses. That means a lot of officers who are all high ranking, but who are all probably taking orders from one main general. Yet it's an aristocrats club, and they're all high ranking enough anyway that there's no need to be a dick about rank or for the main general in command to segregate himself from his troops. Especially back then, you didn't really have to take shit or technically follow orders from anyone if you were high ranking. It's permission to be casual.
If you look up the order of battle for some Napoleon battles you'll see that lots of them are comprised of 5-10 generals.
Elijah Davis
That makes a lot of sense. So the entourage is not really composed of people giving orders directly to the troops, but they'll relay orders from the big cheese to, say, the leader of the hussars, and the leader of the infantry, and the leader of the artillery, and so on?
Ayden Carter
Yup. Or it could also be the officers he depends on to deliver said messages, or his bodyguards, or the guy who takes care of his horse, or the guy who goes into town to get him cigarettes and fresh eggs.
The main thing to take away is the boys' club of it all.
Nathaniel Fisher
Yeah, it being a boys' club is what I most got from it. One of the characters actually said he got transferred to being an attendant in order to get paid more for doing nothing than risking himself on the front lines, lol
Zachary Brooks
25 days is a good pace but i'm skeptical Veeky Forums will keep up
we had like a 3 month Infinite Jest group that failed and a 2 month GR group that failed because people fell behind
i'm not reading along here but i wish you all good luck
Nicholas Hughes
Reading for day 3 finished. Short day!
Words read on day 3: 18,681 Time taken: 48 minutes
Total words read so far: 66,686 Total words in book: 563,286 Total time taken so far: 172 minutes Approximate total reading time: 25 hours
We shall double our efforts!
What happened when the Infinite Jest group failed, and how could you tell it was failing? Did OP stop posting?
What is GR?
Cooper Howard
Do you skim, or do you just have excellent focus? It took me something like 2 hours to read the pages for today. Also, are you taking notes?
Aaron Williams
GR is gravity's rainbow
I could tell it failed because everyone complained the pace was too fast and that they were falling behind, because the discussion slowed to a few bump posts a day and finally yes the OP's stopped posting
same thing with Gravity's Rainbow. maybe the more traditional narrative of W&P will aid the reading
Matthew Nelson
I do not skim. I suppose I have good focus, but I practice a lot to get it, which is to say I read a lot. Try to focus yourself and maintain forward momentum while reading - very important!. You have plenty of time to practice! This will be the longest book I have ever read, but I've read longer series like Harry Potter (1,084,170 words) before. If it takes you long to read, fret not because we are reading for pleasure, so the time it takes is not as important as your enjoyment of the reading. Also speed reading is a load of horse shit, so don't bother with it. Just focus your mind and maintain forward reading momentum.
Although not included in the 48 minutes reading time for today, I also read the CliffsNotes website. Helps me pick out which plot details are salient. I couldn't tell how much of the troop details were significant, but after reading two chapters, then reading the cliffsnotes for them, I realized where I should be focused and was able to make sense of the rest of the reading)
I do not take lots of notes. I did copy many of the names down from the OWC sheet into my Evernote, as I do with all books I read. I find having the names (and places, and some key phrases especially ominous ones) in an Evernote document helps me follow stories better.
Infinite Jest is shorter than War and Peace, and being read over 3 months means it was a much slower pace than this group. People still falling behind under those circumstances does not bode well, but perhaps the quickened pace will mean rather that only the truly committed will join, and so all will be successful because we are all committed.
I do not foresee myself having any problems with keeping up with the reading, even if I should miss a day. I read other things each day in addition to W&P. Having the group actually helps me by setting daily reachable goals.
Hunter Long
Thanks a lot for the information here. I think I'll use your method and read the cliffnotes right after. Can't hurt to get a quick summary of the plot afterwards as long as I don't read any analyses of it, I guess
Landon King
So is the read-through dead now, or what? Only 6 posters already, down from 28 yesterday?
Cooper Williams
Fell at the first weekday? The NEETs will prevail.
Owen Moore
Are American users logged on yet or are we still mostly Europeans?
Cuz I'm in Britain and its usually only when I wake up in the morning that the threads taken off.
Eli Jones
It's 7:17 PM on the east coast, and 4:17 on the west coast. Should be more posts if people are interested, I guess
Caleb Lopez
Or maybe some people read at night? And there's peoples from other countries too. For example, I'm a monkey from Brazil.
The only thing I'm worried about is some New Year's trip that I'm going to do. Hoping that I can read the book there.
I'm half through the pages of today. Pace still good. Can't imagine the work to construct the characters so well throughout more than 1000 pages. I don't feel tired of reading about the personalities of the characters and their conflicts. In truth, I just want to read more and I'm glad that this book is huge.
Isaac Morris
I was having trouble remembering where Boris had been sent so I went back and reread some parts. Prince Vasili got him transferred to the Semyonov Guards as a Cornet. Apparently that's Dolokhov's regiment (or was before he was reduced). The only other thing we know about it is that Lieutenant Berg, the officer with a supposed interest in Vera, is there too.
I also didn't realise, or forgot, that the extra favour Anna Mikhailovna asked of Prince Vasili that went unfulfilled was to get Boris a position as Kutuzov's adjutant - Andrei's job.
Justin Reyes
>And Kutuzov smiled in a way that seemed to say, ‘You are quite at liberty not to believe me and I don’t even care whether you do or not, but you have no grounds for telling me so. And that is the whole point.’ Imagine the smugness.
Levi King
He kind of looks like Harold Bloom desu
Cooper Collins
What was the point of the final scene with the Minister of War?
What is Prussia? Is it sovereign from Russia, with a leader separate from Emperor Alexander? Does Alexander oversee Austria as well, or is it sovereign?
Themes: Death, War, Peace, Idealism, Maturation, Duty.
The Russians seem to think themselves better than the Austrians. Like, if it were us fighting, we'd have beaten Bonaparte easy and been done in time for drinks. Countries always seem jealous of neighbors, like a longstanding feud of sorts, which is what I assumed the Russian-Austrian feud to be.
>If I'm allowed to say something negative about the great man, I think Tolstoi does this kind of thing too often: I like this type of illustration. It makes me feel like you're really getting into someone's head when you start seeing their fantasies.
I never noticed the Posters before. You are right, Day 2 had 28 posters. Day 3 is only at 7!
I've already posted, but I'm afraid I don't much discuss what I'm reading usually. I find it's hard to come up with things to say.
I should like to note that taking 2 hours for today's reading is about average for a person that regularly reads, given the content and length of the reading. A book worm reads genre fiction at 200-300 wpm. This is harder and also a long reading.
Sebastian Rivera
I started today, but I'm reading a different translation. I'm on chapter 10 and it is the chapter 7 on the ebook provided here. What should I do now?
Samuel Hughes
Which translation and edition are you reading?
Dylan Ramirez
>Themes: Death, War, Peace, Idealism, Maturation, Duty.
Good call. I guess even basic things like that are themes when there's a lot going on.
Aiden Gutierrez
Does anyone know of a Veeky Forums reading group that was successful? How did they do it?
There is a Count of Monte Cristo group forming: ^
Benjamin Gonzalez
Nevermind. I will continue reading the epub posted here on my Kindle. Thanks anyway.
Henry King
What are you guys looking forward to seeing in the upcoming chapters?
I'm really curious to get back to the Peace sections. I want to see how the war affects them there.
Cameron King
I will join the reading group. Let's see if it works.
Sebastian Watson
Napoleon did nothing wrong.
Ryder Allen
Go to bed, Pierre.
Leo Ward
Interestingly, we have 39 responses in the poll, but this thread only has 10 posters. It is quite possible that readers are not posting each day, or posting at all even, but we know some of those 9 posters are not reading as well as they've said as much.
What history of the war should we know when reading? From what I've gathered, French dude name Napoleon took over France and then started conquering to the East. Is that about all I need to know?
Kevin Carter
it was all how things had to be n shit
Easton Bell
>French dude name Napoleon
You don't know who Napoleon is? You should at least read his wikipedia article and the french revolution one, jesus christ
Benjamin Johnson
I'm reading and posting on the threads, but i just have seen the poll now.
Also, someone has to make the thread tomorrow, OP is going to tie a policeman to a bear tomorrow night.
Brandon Rodriguez
Must one read the book? I want to participate in the discussion but I'd rather watch the miniseries since it's shorter.
Logan Gomez
Yes you pleb
Angel Davis
Sorry my page numbers are different so I have a question
Say for instance today, do I read up to part 3 chapter 1 or am I also supposed to read part 3 chapter 1 and start tomorrow on chapter 2?
Daniel Phillips
I have my Marya. Pure and Religious.
That scene where Nikolay lost his innocence is great. And that description of the line that separates two armies, holy shit.
>What’s our read on Kutuzov for example? Smug guy. Still can't see if he's honorable and a guy that Andrei can follow.
>There seems to be a switch from French to German being used. Is this important? Yes, i think. Maybe because they are close to the enemy (French) and would be too ironic if they were speaking the language of the enemy? As if talking French in their homes wasn't ironic enough... And they speak German because that is the language of their allies, now close to them
>How do we feel about the shift in conversational tone between this and the last section? Yeah, they really don't have the nitpicking of manners. This sort of thing don't matter in war. Though a Hierarchy is still present. You just have to follow the orders and do shit, no need to put a face and make an act, things that Andrei hated.
Want to see how Pierre is doing now that he's a Count.
Gabriel Gutierrez
Alright, I have a question for you guys. I've been reading this for the past couple of months, with some large breaks for other books in between (which really wasn't good for me, since I'm finding these names very difficult to follow) and right now I'm on page 684. When I usually read books, especially the type we get in English, I find that although they do make me think about a lot of different and very broad themes I almost never "get" what the author is trying to say. I'll think the author was definitely clearly trying to convey a certain idea only to have a worksheet and teacher tell me they were saying something completely different. I can also tell that I'm mostly projecting what I'd like the book to be saying. I'm really worried I'll do the same with this. I really do not want to do that since this book is held in such high regard, and I feel a group like this would be really beneficial to me. However, it would also mean taking another break until everyone was caught up, and I'm worried that might trip me up. Should I just continue to read for enjoyment of the story like I usually do, and re-read it when I'm a little wiser, or should I just wait and start up again with you guys yo hopefully get a little wiser a little sooner?
Brandon Long
>English ver is shorter >Timezone difference
Boy, I'll never fit in this read-through.
t. rusbro
Ethan Gonzalez
If i were you, i would keep reading and coming here to talk about the topics of the day.
The chapters schedule don't work?
Adrian Carter
Part One (I - XXV) ends with p.176.
Colton Roberts
>From what I've gathered, French dude name Napoleon took over France and then started conquering to the East.
this fucking board
Ryan Campbell
I thought such a well-read board would be a little more knowledgeable about history, or at least make an effort to read up on some background information before beginning a book that is essentially about history. You're going to be bored out of your mind by the long sections about the historical process later in the book.
Napoleon was a French artillery officer who quickly rose through the ranks in in the wars of the French Revolution. The Republic was a threat to the aristocracies of Europe (e.g. the people at the center of W&P) so was near-constantly at war with the rest of Europe. In iirc 1799 Napoleon took power in the politically unstable Paris, and continued the series of wars against the powers of Europe, principally Austria and Britain. It is hotly debated to what extent these wars were the fault of Napoleon's ambition or of the powers' reactionism. In 1803 Napoleon was crowned Emperor of the French, and soon after another coalition was formed against him. It is that coalition, I believe, that is going to war with him in the beginning of W&P. It is not a spoiler, and Tolstoy's audience would certainly not consider it a spoiler, to say that this section ends with the Battle of Austerlitz, Napoleon's greatest victory. Napoleon was the prototypical "great man" (this is the idea Andrei and, early on, Pierre, are obsessed with); the great man theory of history is that history is driven by individuals with the genius, charisma, and determination to command the forces of history. The idea (very outdated in modern historiography) disgusted Tolstoy, and W&P is his dismantling of that myth.
Prussia, despite its name, was not part of Russia, it was one of the 5 great powers of the era, in the northern German lands. Prussia was the driving force behind the unification of the German Empire, it was dismantled after WWII and split between mostly Poland and E. Germany. Austria was not the little country it is today, but a vast empire in central Europe, and with the downfall of the old French regime, seen as the guardian of traditional European aristocracy.
Isaiah Martinez
You are supposed to read up to but not including Part 3 Chapter 1. Tomorrow you start on Part 3 Chapter 1.
Luis Martinez
Thank you
Asher Peterson
But it is the same chapter numbering of the oxford edition?
Andrew Moore
I read original, so I have no idea.
Lucas Ramirez
to
Lucas Evans
Check the OWC PDF and compare it to the Russian version to find out where the reading start and end.
Could you recommend a couple core Wikipedia articles that you think cover the history?
So far that should be plenty of information. You really only need to know the warring states, commanders (Napoleon, Kutuzov, Mack, etc.), and the difference between the Wars of the Third, Fourth, Fifth, and Sixth Coalitions
Wyatt Brown
Maybe we should leave a "catch up day" in between every few days op. Personally i have fallen a bit behind but, nothing significant.
Samuel Clark
Im also personally a little bit behind and also read at night.
Aaron Myers
It was asked before what previous works we'd read.
I've read The Death of Ivan Ilyich before. It was okay, but I thought it'd be much better than it turned out being. Of short stories I've read, I'd not rank it very highly. I've been enjoying W&P much more.
Jeremiah Miller
Yeah sure. Since I'm not gonna be able to make a thread tonight, would it help to use today as a catch up day?
Andrew Walker
20 posters now. Just takes some time for people to get online. I'm not taking part but I'm glad this is going well for you guys. Good luck.
Hunter Turner
Thanks man
Chase Mitchell
I do my reading at night, fall asleep and then read through the thread in the morning. I think a catchup day would be a good idea, it would also offer extended discussion perhaps about the book as a whole.
Jace Smith
I made a folder with the English ebooks and audiobook.
Yeah, every few days we should do a holistic thread where people can catch up/talk about the whole book so far.
Tyler Wilson
>>There seems to be a switch from French to German being used. Is this important? >Yes, i think. Maybe because they are close to the enemy (French) and would be too ironic if they were speaking the language of the enemy? >As if talking French in their homes wasn't ironic enough... >And they speak German because that is the language of their allies, now close to them
It was mentioned a few times that some characters were speaking French, but their dialogue was produced in English (Russian). I guess Tolstoi did it for contrast with Part 1.
As for the irony in speaking French, it's worth noting that there was a kind of cognitive dissonance going on among Russian high society in that they didn't view France or the French as their enemy, just Napoleon. In their mind he was holding France hostage, and if the French had their way then the monarchy would be restored as the Russians hoped. See their use of the Corsican version of his name, Buonoparte.
Henry Bennett
Ah, yes. I forgot that Napoleon is considered the real enemy by the Russians.
Wyatt Wilson
I read past where I was supposed to stop for day three because it was just to good. It's interesting to see the contrast between Andrew's expectations of war and his first major engagement with the French. He enters battle with these grand expectations of being the hero and the brilliant strategist who saves Russia from disaster, but in the end he seems almost apathetic to lead once the battle commences and he sees how disorganized the Russian command is. Kutuzov just lets his subordinates handle everything even though this doesn't help since they end up not having a grand plan for the battle; the Russians end up reactive, not proactive. I've only finished part 2 and have yet to start on part 3 but I'm looking forward to seeing how this impacts Andrew's optimism and eagerness towards the war. It's a shame the young Rostov was wounded, I was hoping he would stay safe.
Logan Reed
>Andrew's Oh man you fell for the meme.
Juan Nelson
>I really enjoyed that passage immediately after Nikolai gets off his horse at the bridge, reality hit him like a cannonball alright.
This was my favorite part of the book so far. They were trying to retreat in order to avoid the grape-shot, and once that first round was fired it was almost like a switch flipped.
The war and gravity of the situation overwhelmed Nikolay, and sudden death was now considered a reality.
The way time stood still on that bride and how Tolstoy painted the scene was truly engaging. This is my first Tolstoy read and now I'm a fan.
I'm really looking forward to see how Pierre will handle his newfound wealth and status.
Hunter Jenkins
>tfw you feel smug because you can read the French bits, when suddenly the German shows up and you feel extra smug because you can read those too.
Caleb Long
bump
Leo Reed
Is there a consensus on whether or not today is a catch up day? I know some have expressed interest.
Will there be a catch up thread created while OP is out tonight?
Dominic Gomez
This is all wrong. The image is a bit confusing, but basically:
For the reading for a given day, e.g. Day 3, look at the day 3 row. Whatever it says on the right is where you STOP for that day.
So day 3's reading stops at Book One Part Two Chapter 10. That is, you read up to but not including Chapter 10.
Day 4's reading starts on Chapter 10 and stops at Part Three Chapter 1 (don't read Chapter 1, just read up to it).
Isaiah Perez
I just want to say I'm glad this thread exists. I started W&P a few months ago but got distracted by other things just after the inspection scene. I'm jumping back into it now and look forward to joining the discussion over the coming weeks.
