/keto/

>a healthy diet?

That's a bit of a reach considering how strong the connection between saturated fat intake and insulin resistance and heart disease is, as well as how carcinogenic fried red meat is considered.

>But if you're picking Keto just to lose weight, it is absolutely a meme.
nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa022637
sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0022347602402065

There's barely any sugar in cheese compared to milk, you imbecile.

Milk is still 49% calories from fats. Still pretty high. If the criteria for excluding a food is their relative carb balance with regard to other macros weighted against how energy dense the food is by weight, excluding milk but including broccoli does not make much sense, since broccoli has more carbs per 100g than milk, while milk has more fats than broccoli.

keto is helping my acid reflux

t.former vegan

>If the criteria for excluding a food is their relative carb balance with regard to other macros weighted against how energy dense the food is by weight
It isn't.

Then what is the criteria?

Limiting your daily carb intake enough to enter and stay in ketosis, which is around 20g

That's why something that has 4.8g net carbs per 100ml is usually excluded from the advised foods.

Aren't berries made of mostly fructose?

Then there is no reason to exclude milk, many of the foods on that pyramid can kick you out of ketosis if you eat enough of it, which is pretty easy if you don't carefully monitor quantities, I see no reason why that shouldn't apply to milk, and hence, why it is excluded.

There's a reason why they're at the top of the pyramid

>if you eat enough of it
Yeah no shit, buddy. Pointing out the obvious isn't an argument. You can eat pure sugar and stay in ketosis too if you just eat little enough of it.
You get why sugar is excluded from a recommended food list in a carb limiting diet though, do you?

ah, the "don't eat anything filling" diet

Well, my point then is, why is milk excluded and not at the top of the pyramid?

>why is milk excluded and not at the top of the pyramid?
Because there's no good reason to include something that doesn't provide you with anything you won't be getting more efficiently from the cheese and butter that's included, same why there's no sugar cubes on the top of the pyramid either.

you can have small doses of milk on keto
that chart is stupid

Milk has a better micronutrient profile than other dairy. That's a reason.

>Milk has a better micronutrient profile than other dairy.
But that's wrong.

fatty meat and fish are extremely filling desu

Stop eating shitty carbs. Putting on weight with keto is way harder. It's much better for cutting or mantience. Also eat lean meats or you will clog your arteries.

nutritiondata.self.com/facts/dairy-and-egg-products/69/2
nutritiondata.self.com/facts/dairy-and-egg-products/8/2
nutritiondata.self.com/facts/dairy-and-egg-products/18/2

I haven't looked at every kind of cheese, but these are very common cheeses so I'm using them. Milk has a better balance than either of them, but when you adjust for how much of each micronutrient you are getting per calorie, as those values are by weight, milk far outstrips these two cheeses.

I'm not saying cheese doesn't have other benefits due to being fermented, but overall, milk has a better micronutrient profile.

milk is recommended for exclusion because it spikes your BG

same thing for most beans, not including black beans and chick peas

atkins nutritionals--the company that does food science research and produces the branded food products--sells frozen meals with pasta. it isn't meant for people who need to be in ketosis to burn excess body fat.

all of these exclusions and limits are gradually reduced as patient approaches goal weight.

if patient is on ketogenic diet for non-weight health reasons like seizures, diabetes, skin conditions, or as part of a differential diagnosis, the limits would start more severe and not be lifted unless directed by a physician.

in short: milk much sugar. you not much brain.

>244g milk
>still loses against every cheese when talking about nutrients despite those being measured with less weight

Come on now.

Like I said, you're not getting anything from milk that you can't get more efficiently from the dairy that's recommended, without the risk of getting thrown out of ketosis.

>keto
>healthy

Lmfao

You can eat black and chickpea beans on keto?!

Berries will spice BG too, yet they are included. As an example, if you take the same amount of strawberries and milk, by calorie, milk only has a 10% higher glycemic load. Not much of a difference. Blueberries on the other high, for the same calories, has a much higher impact on your blood glucose levels than milk.

I don't think you understand how adjusting micronutrient to total calories works, or why that is important.

Doing keto to gain weight is retarded

>It's not a meme because it's a diet, you mong. It's a meme because all you have to fucking do is eat a smaller amount of food in a day than you were previously.

Not quite. While I do mostly agree that the advantages of a keto diet mostly stem from the fact that you're just paying attention to what you are eating, I do find that a diet completely void of carbohydrates makes it easier to manage hunger. If I were to consume a more balanced diet with carbohydrates, I would have a more difficult time dieting. This is mainly a practical argument.

On paper, it makes no difference

>I don't think you understand how adjusting micronutrient to total calories works, or why that is important.
Why is it important?

Why do people have such animus for arguing about nutrition memes? What do you think you're defending?

This chart is retarded. There's a reason real clinical ketogenic diets moderate protein: pairing high fat and high protein will kill you, unless you're an olympic swimmer who drinks gallons of water and eats pounds of greens.
You're already in a state of pre-acidosis, and you're piling on goddamn red meat and bacon, likely cooked to the point of being indigestible.

You can absolutely lose weight and control a handful of diseases by replacing sugars and carbs with fat.
That has nothing to do with fad diets that recommend stuffing your face with meat every four hours.

and if you can tolerate the spike you can drink it above the recommended serving sizes. berries are a convenience food and honestly a serious relief from eating heavy rich foods all the time: you eat a quarter cup of berries with some frozen cream as a dessert and you just ate nearly 30% of an induction phase daily net carb limit.

when you're past induction phase (normalizing the BG, cementing the lifestyle change to a healthier diet, going into/staying in a fat-fed ketogenic state) the atkins researchers will recommend having a 4oz cup of whole milk, or yogurt, or soft cheese like ricotta. beyond that it's about your ability to tolerate BG increases without coming out of ketosis until your needs are met.

most people can't tolerate the glycemic load of a glass of milk and the ones who can probably shouldn't be indulging it anyway. that's why it's _recommended_ for exclusion and berries aren't. you can get that fat and those nutrients with less risk to your progress; as the phase we're discussing is relatively brief there would never be a risk of micronutrient depletion.

perhaps more important to point out: nobody reading this board is at risk of micronutrient depletion for not drinking milk.

>pairing high fat and high protein will kill you

do you have a link to a paper showing this? the research i've read shows pairing high fat and high carb will cause atherosclerosis; nothing about high fat high protein by themselves

Your total food intake is determined by calories, not weight. Hence, the micronutrient payload per calorie is very important.

For the same weight, not only does cheese seem to have less micros than milk, it gets more calorie dense, so the micros per calorie gets much worse when you ferment milk in to cheese.

Now, cheese is a low risk for tipping you out of ketosis, but some of the foods on the pyramid are worse for your ketosis than milk.

Autism. Nothing is gained, humanity loses. Dance along or sit down and keep quiet.

>an actual informed answer
Well, I have nothing to more to add. The reason milk is excluded is because people are stupid, I agree with that.

Keto is still dumb in general though, regardless of having the intelligence to do it properly.

>Keto is still dumb in general though, regardless of having the intelligence to do it properly.
what else am i going to eat with my acid reflux genius?

Why do you ignore the part where you have to limit carbs and thus choosing certain foods makes more sense than others?

Of course cheese is more calorie dense than fucking milk, but you won't eat as much of it as you'd drink milk and thanks to it having more nutrients than milk you'll get what you need without the high carb intake.

>but some of the foods on the pyramid are worse for your ketosis than milk.
Then your issue should be with those items, not milk.

It increases your blood acidity (which is kind of the point of the diet). That's known to be dangerous for people with existing kidney disease or a predisposition for gout, some of which is hard to diagnose until you hit it with such a diet.
The jury is still out on whether ordinary people will develop kidney stones and bone loss from eating a diet high in protein, but research is ongoing:
ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1169452/

I should say that high protein in theory isn't all that bad for you, if paired with leafy greens and sufficient hydration at all times.
The problem is that a lot of diets, such as the one in OP's pic don't distinguish between types of meat, and recommend red meat to maximize fat and protein intake. Red meat is bad for you, a fact that I could easily source but I figure you already know.
I can't say I know of anything wrong with eating a shitload of chicken and olive oil every day, as long as you supplement it with adequate leafy greens and stay hydrated constantly.

Acid reflux can have many causes most of them unrelated to diet, so I would recommend you see a doctor if you haven't already.

If keto does help your acid reflux and there is nothing else you can do about it aside from reduce the symptoms through diet, then you clearly are in the exceptional case of being not in the "general", normal, healthy population, who don't need a keto diet to be healthy and thriving.

Still doesn't mean that keto won't fuck you up. You have my condolences.

>Why do you ignore the part where you have to limit carbs and thus choosing certain foods makes more sense than others?
Yes, but just like berries are fine in small amounts, so too with milk.

>thanks to it having more nutrients
More macronutrients, but way, way less micronutrients. I tend to emphasize micros in diet since macros are very easy to get, but getting your micros right can be tricky, especially with diets like keto where some of the best foods for micros are excluded or limited.

>Then your issue should be with those items, not milk.
I know those items are at the top since they are meant to be taken in small amounts, and won't kick out of ketosis. I'm just saying milk is more or less the same in that regard. But as pointed it, it is excluded because people tend to overconsume. I can understand that, people are stupid and explaining the details as to when and how much milk is fine, as you can judge from the rants so far, is a bit more info than you can fit on a nice simple colourful picture, so I'd probably do the same.

Still doesn't mean milk can't be part of a "balanced" ketogenic diet.

Keto "works", but it is not a sustainable diet. Once you reach your desired weight, one of three things will happen:

1. You start eating like you used to again, and gain all the weight back plus some

2. You stay on keto, and end up having a medical emergency as your body cannibalizes itself for energy.

3. You start on a normal balanced diet like you should have done in the first place.

Sadly #3 is pretty unlikely because you clearly didn't have the willpower to eat fats, meats and dairy in moderation.

>Acid reflux can have many causes most of them unrelated to diet, so I would recommend you see a doctor if you haven't already.
yeah waiting for the next month process of them putting shit up my butt and mouth.

tried going vegan for a month but it just made my symptoms worse
tho eggs still fuck me up. but grilled chicken breasts and veggies are fine so far

>Still doesn't mean that keto won't fuck you up. You have my condolences.
yeah probably but i just want to eat without my heart and stomach burning and hurting :(

What are you even arguing? Milk has carbs, cheese doesn't.

>hey bruv Im on a diet
>hey brah wanna here about my new diet?
>hey boi so there is this new diet
>hey nigguh dis the real shit man
vegan style

>Still doesn't mean milk can't be part of a "balanced" ketogenic diet.
Although, now that I think about it, if I had to follow that diet with a very small carb quota, I'd stick to certain veggies, nuts, seeds and berries, since there are many of them that puts milk to shame, so you might as well pack in the best for what little you can fit in.

In that regard excluding milk makes sense. But is like saying: "hey, this diet is so shit, you better avoid this because you can only eat so much healthy food without interrupting ketosis".

>What are you even arguing?
I have no idea. I'm just nitpicking things because I'm bored.

>Milk has carbs, cheese doesn't.
Berries have carbs in them, and they aren't excluded.

Honestly, instead of trying this diet or that diet, just try different foods and see how you react. At least until you know what's up. It seems your condition is unrelated to keto/vegan/whatever dietary groups, and could be caused by some others factors that follow a different pattern. Could help your doctors too if you have a list of foods that give you AR.

>tfw I lost 17lbs in a month on a high carb diet because I had enough discipline to put down the fork
Yes I know this isn't a safe amount to lose in such a short time, but hey, I still did it and I'm fine. It all comes down to calorie counting. I counted a bit less than I should have, but I still counted it.

>Honestly, instead of trying this diet or that diet, just try different foods and see how you react.
yeah good idea. im just a pussy and don't want the heart attack pain again

>2. You stay on keto, and end up having a medical emergency as your body cannibalizes itself for energy.
Why would it do that?

>but way, way less micronutrients.
But that's wrong even according to your own sources here where the cheeses tend to have at least equal to up to twice as many micronutrients per 100g
I could maybe understand your """"argument"""" if there were no other way to get that shit but with milk, but that's not the case.

>Although, now that I think about it, if I had to follow that diet with a very small carb quota, I'd stick to certain veggies, nuts, seeds and berries, since there are many of them that puts milk to shame, so you might as well pack in the best for what little you can fit in.
>In that regard excluding milk makes sense.
Fuck you for wasting the time of several anons in this thread.

The correct answer is to stop giving a shit about what other people think.
That goes for both being fat and doing something about it.

Ketoniggers are the new vegans

>look at my cool and edgy diet guys! All the celebrities do it!
>i cant eat bread!!! Im on keto ya know!!
>woah woah woah didnt you know that 6 BILLION years ago we didn't have agriculture you evil wheat-gendered scum!!! Im doing it all natural!
>Duuuuuude look at my instagran of my five eggs and bacon lol!!! #healthyasfuck

Insufferable

interesting abstract. thanks! i can't get my hands on their methodology but a couple things could be pointed out here:

1) ketogenic diets should never, ever, be "high in protein". they are by definition high in fat, moderate protein, low carbohydrate (of which most should be green leafy vegetables).

2) this matters a great deal when looking at portion size for "proteins" in low carb diet recommendations: because ketogenic macros tend to look like 70/30/10 fat/protein/carb, meat choices tend to be very fatty. of our 4-6oz of "protein" perhaps 50-60% by weight would be actual protein with the rest being fat.

using standard protein consumption recommendations of 0.36 * patient weight in pounds, and comparing it against a recommendation of 12-18oz of "protein" per day, meaning perhaps 7-10oz, we get a daily average protein intake of perhaps 75-90g.

this works out to somewhere around 25% of calories from protein for a person eating a 2000 calorie diet. while it's true that ketogenic diets tend to discount caloric excess as relevant--because fat is catabolized and ends up as ketones, which are breathed/sweated/pissed out rather than being stored--a significant protein excess can cause overproduction of glucose in the liver and knock the patient out of ketosis.

this is why seizure patients receiving ketogenic therapy tend to be fed coconut oils for 80-95% of their calories. i clicked seventeen recaptchas to post this. i hope someone finds it useful.

I'll be using cheddar as a reference since I just learned feta is made from goat and/or sheep's milk, so a direct comparison isn't fair when comparing it to cow's milk.

>But that's wrong even according to your own sources
I am using the "Completeness Score" value as a quick shorthand, and milk's is 45, higher than cheddar's 33. It takes all the micros into account, not just the ones that go up or down with fermentation. But, for completeness I looked at each micro and...

>cheeses tend to have at least equal to up to twice as many micronutrients per 100g
...this is why you measure micronutrient density per calorie, and not weight. 100g of cow's milk clocks in 60 calories, but 100g of cheddar cheese clocks in at 403 calories. Assuming you are consuming 2000 calories, that is ~3333g of milk, or ~500g of cheese. The only micro that exceeds the 7x(rounded up) adjustment of micros you would expect in cheddar is vitamin A. Some are roughly 7x as you would expect, many are less than that. Sometimes much less. I'm not counting sodium since that is added as salt as part of the process to make cheddar.

So the facts still stands, ignoring changes in relative micro balance differences, to get roughly the same amount of micros from cheese as you could get from milk, you would have to consume proportionally more calories of cheese than you would from milk.

Hence, after adjusting for calories, milk is in all but one instance equal to or significantly superior to cheddar when it comes to micros.

>I could maybe understand your """"argument"""" if there were no other way to get that shit but with milk, but that's not the case.
My argument uses basic arithmetic, maybe that is why you don't understand it.

Not really. I'm sure many learned that keto is shit, and I learned over more about why it is more shit than I initially thought.

>posting this
>calling others insufferable

Go eat your plain oatmeal

>fibrous veggies
>fat
>meat
>not filling

>tryna gain weight and put on muscle
Veeky Forums here, you need carbs to trigger hypertrophy. That said I too am in keto right now. Eat "normally" during the colder months.

Who cares about this shit you can replace it with vegetables. Potatoes = radish pasta = zucchini , also you can make almond bread easily

>Veeky Forums here, you need carbs to trigger hypertrophy.
This is incorrect, as evidenced by the countless people who have gained weight and gotten diabetic following Atkins and "Keto" (which is a brand name for Atkins)

hmm, proof? I thought diabetes was triggered by sugar intake - people actually use keto diets to treat type 2 diabetes

also this study from 2013 seems to indicate that carbs are not necessary for hypertrophy
ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3850644/
>Is carbohydrate needed to further stimulate muscle protein synthesis/hypertrophy following resistance exercise?

>There is a growing body of literature analysing the impact that co-ingestion of protein-carbohydrate versus carbohydrate alone has on protein synthesis. However, there are far fewer studies examining the actions of co-ingested carbohydrate-protein compared to protein alone. More importantly, no chronic study has addressed the effects of adding carbohydrate to protein compared to protein alone on muscle hypertrophy.

>In conclusion, whilst it cannot be excluded that carbohydrate addition may provide benefits for recovering athletes, on the basis of available data, no further beneficial actions of carbohydrates, irrespective of GI, are evident concerning muscle hypertrophy when a protein supplement that maximally stimulate muscle protein synthesis is ingested. Further studies are required before conclusions and recommendations can be made.

if anyone could point out where the study goes wrong i would appreciate it

>waaaaaaaaah it's shit because there's not this high carb liquid in the recommeded pyramid waaah
sure thing buddy

Sick insult, ketonigger

obviously you will gain weight if you eat in excess of your caloric needs regardless of diet. Also the difference between "keto" and "atkins" is enough to warrant separation. You get to eat more carbs in atkins. "Keto" is just the shorthand of ketogenic, which is the state you enter into in "keto." Atkins is not strictly keto because of higher carb allowance.

That's the whole point of the diet. That's what ketogenesis does. With no carbs incoming, keto burns the body's fat reserves for energy. It's literally a mechanism to survive when you're starving. Why do you think it would suddenly stop once you're at X weight?

stop eating at a caloric deficit, duh

> I thought diabetes was triggered by sugar intake
No

>if anyone could point out where the study goes wrong i would appreciate it
The study is correct in that you can build muscle and/or get fat without carbohydrates. Dietary protein itself is insulinogenic and anabolic, some more than others (animal protein is more anabolic than plant protein, which is just one more reason why a diet high in animal protein is ineffective long-term for weight loss). Contrary to low-carb dogma, the human body is perfectly capable of storing endless amount of excess fat in body fat and muscles without insulin action

No, it's a metabolic process that uses fats as the primary source of energy. Yes, it is useful for survival during times of food scarcity, but it is also useful for when fats are the primarily available source of food. The body won't metabolize its fat reserves unless it is in a caloric deficit. The bottom line is we are very adaptive organisms. We are biological machines that can run on different fuel sources.

This cheese vs. milk debate is fucking ridiculous.

1. Micronutrients are hugely overrated in the nutrition world. If you're reading this, you're not deficient in anything. If you even vaguely attempt to include nutrient-rich foods (beef, offal, seafood, green vegetables), you're extra fine.

Milk is not keto-friendly. The extra little bit of, like, phosphorous or whatever compared to cheese is irrelevant. Calcium is a meme micro propped up by the dairy industry.

This was going to be a numbered list before I realized how dumb that argument really was.

>excludes beans as a whole
>excludes rice (yeah because all those asians who live on rice are so fucking fat amirite)

The bulk of this thread is just people playing devil's advocate anyway.

Yeah and food like pumpkin and sweet potatoes are SO BAD FOR YOU MUST AVOID

What is in beans and rice that is necessary for health and can't be found in low-carb green vegetables?

I think the "all carbs are inherently bad" meme is based on an incomplete understanding of food science and more research is needed, because I lost a ton of weight when I was making mostly curries and eating a lot of rice (then I got on the bread again, press F to pay respects to my bathroom scale)
I don't think I've ever heard of anybody on the planet getting fat off of a diet of beans, either.

>tfw making keto chicken parm
I hope it turns out good

Why are you so obsessed with milk? It's pathetic. The flavor is for plebs, the nutrients are more easily obtained elsewhere, and it isn't even nutrient dense to begin with, the producers have to add that shit in

please tell me what to put in my coffee

I tried it for 3 weeks. I lost 30 pounds in water weight. I couldnt stand the food and just went bsck to my 60% deficit

>30lbs in water weight
excuse me?

do you weigh 700lbs?

I started at 290ish pounds and only lost about 3 lb of water weight

>tfw want to keto but rice is like 50% of my diet

This thread leads me to believe 90% of you have no idea what keto actually is, but you insist on posting anyway. Please at least Google ketosis for 5 minutes

Welcome to Veeky Forums enjoy your stay

380 was the weight I was at when I started Keto. Original weight before deficit was 425. I drink LOTS of water tho like 5 liters easily.

You're a big guy

>diabetes (t1) runs in family
>chance that one day I'll just develop it out of nowhere and enjoy a much shittier life and reduced lifespan
nice

*was a bigguy4u* I am down to 330. We all can make it lads.

butta

Legit question? In keto or low-carb, use cream. It only has a small amount of sugar. 1-2 tablespoons in a cup will be more than enough for most people (who like it), giving 50-100 kcals, mostly from fat and 1g of sugar. Whole milk in coffee sucks.

...

Don't do this. It's stupid. It won't stay emulsified unless you frappe it, and even then not very long. Cream is fine on keto.

Type 1 here. If you don't get it by 30, you probably won't. Were still not sure if there is a genetic component to type 1, but most people who do have it, get it before 20.

I know a pair of identical twins who grew up in the same household. One of them got type 1 as a child, the other didn't. I think the leading hypothesis is that it's an autoimmune response to some kind of virus.

There are some anecdotes out there of people slowing or halting the onset of the disease by switching to a very strict ketogenic diet when caught early enough. There's also the possibility of a vaccine in the future.

Keto is good. But these thread will always be cancer because Veeky Forums is hopefully normie when it comes to things that are on the fringe of the fringe like keto or flat earth.

I came here to lurk, but you're all shit when it comes to dieting advice