So is there any health justification for eating animal products?

there's also no legitimate health arguments for veganism. There's valid arguments to reduce your meat consumption, but there's no legitimate health reason to completely and utterly get rid of all animal products in your diet.

I eat meat for the same reason I own assault rifles, because I want to you cocksucking liberal faggot

Agreed. I think that's where the ethical component come in, however. But that isn't the purpose of the thread, I suppose.

To be fair, vegans have the upper hand in this debate. They have science backing up the health benefits and the moral high ground.

I recently starting eating more vegetarian, still haven't cut out meat completely. But I only did it to save money, and to see how my body responded. The more I stick to it, the easier it seems to go completely vegan. And I never took second thought to the treatment of animals but it's actually a really good argument when I think of killing and eating my own dog or cat.

There are several.

1) It's an expensive luxury that's only possible in highly developed areas.
2) It creates a lot of pollution & waste

both of those derive from the fact that vegetables have growing seasons. You might be used to walking into a market in december and being able to buy tomatoes, but people seem to forget that out-of-season produce is expensive as fuck, and it's only even possible thanks to stuff being grown on the other side of the world and shipped over to your local WholePaycheck via a fleet of smoke-belching ships and trucks.

3) It's sub-optimal nutrition. Some vital nutrients are far more bioavilable from animal sources.

>They have science backing up the health benefits
What exactly are the scientifically proven health benefits to cutting out all animal products from your diet, as opposed to say, only eating a little bit of meat, eggs, and dairy?

I get that a lot of people eat too much meat, but that doesn't prove the best way is to eat absolutely zero animal products.

I believe this is the dumbest post I've ever seen on Veeky Forums. Congratulations.

All three of those have been debunked time and time again. I highly recommend educating yourself on the subject.

1) A whole foods vegan diet can be extremely cheap. Whole nutrient-dense meals can be made for cents.

2) You don't seem to understand how much waste and pollution meat and diary production produces. Plant cultivation creates tiny amounts compared to that.

3) There is no nutrient that you can't get from a plant-based diet that you can from a meat-based one. Meat (and diary) is extremely nutrient sparse compared to plants.

1) I agree with you here, but if we worked to get most of the world on the same page, there's arguments that it's completely self-sustaining.
2) I didn't realize this one, I'll look in to it.
3) The only thing I can think of is B12 which can be supplemented.

I'm not trying to argue for or against veganism, I am just legitimately wondering what the most efficient way of feeding people could be.

the most ethical diet is a small amount of meat and a lot of veg. meat has its place in an environmental and ethical world, as some places are not fit for crops that humans consume. protip: the corn they feed to pigs is not the corn they feed to humans

>as opposed to say, only eating a little bit of meat, eggs, and dairy?

This is where they get you, and I understand your point completely. All of the studies show health benefits of plant based diets compared to something like a "typical Western diet." I honestly think they are missing a big point by jumping to conclusions like that. The typical Western diet is pretty much simple carbs, high saturated fat, low on the vegetables, and pretty much pro-inflammatory.

Why can't they compare a plant based diet to a diet that still eats meat (in moderation or lean cuts) that still consume a lot of vegetables? They compare two different extremes. If someone can cite me a study that has done this I'd appreciate it.

Disingenuous motherfuckers.

There has to be a correlation with following basically any strict diet and being healthier, simply because you're paying attention to what you eat and not eating whatever.

We could probably run statistics on the keto diet (most likely the average person following a strict keto diet is healthier than a random person) to prove that Americans need to eat even MORE meat, for our health!

Yeah, I think historically, raising animals for food makes a lot of sense. They can eat things that humans can't, so you can convert more energy into a form that we can consume. And you get useful products like wool and leather.

Cultivating human-edible plants just to feed to animals is kind of dumb. Maybe it's okay if you're doing it on land that is otherwise unusable. Many of the areas we typically associate with people that rely heavily on herding are places where large-scale agriculture is very difficult.

I really get annoyed by people who make absolute statements like this when they know full well they haven't read all the studies. No, actually most of the studies are comparing to a "healthy" omnivorous diet or are actually studying the components of food themselves in a lab. There are many studies that do this if you bothered to look into nutrition at all.

I agree to an extent. I think there was probably a historical, and perhaps evolutionary, benefit to raising animals for their meat (and other things, as you mention). But I think at this point in Western civilization it's really unnecessary at best.

This.

I've given up on Veeky Forums because there are so many people like this spreading their ignorance and I just don't have the patience to debunk every stupid thing they say.

cite them

Because I'd rather eat a 1/4 lb hamburger than 2 and 1/2 lbs of kale

Please post a link.

clearly you have the patience to read this thread and fill out a capcha just so you can post about how little patience you have, so why not indulge us in a little conversation?

I challenge anyone to convince me that eating zero animal products is better than eating a little bit.

The Keto diet has been shown countless times in studies already to be hazardous to your health in many, many ways.... A vegan diet has been shown countless times to be optimal for human health and to reverse health issues caused by eating animal products. But thanks for making it clear your strong desire to cherry pick.

Look into heme, IGF-1, casein, Neu5Gc, hormones in animal products, just for starters.

Since cooked meat is considered to be a level one carcinogen, the way I'd answer that is with an analogy; is not smoking at all better than just smoking a little bit?

I realize the analogy isn't perfect (is any analogy?) but I hope it gets the point across.

I agree that being *mostly* vegan is better than getting most of your calories from animal product, but I think this is where the ethical argument comes in, which isn't the topic of the thread, so I'll leave that alone.

Wtf I hate vegans now

post evidence

so.... no links to studies?

To which point?

Vegan diets are good for babies, he's just referring to clickbait articles about some family who thought their baby could survive on nothing but apple juice. Has nothing to do with veganism as a whole. A shitload more omnivorous families kill their children through diet and no one blinks an eye.

Any actual evidence that eating zero animal products is healthier than eating a little bit.

www.theradicalvegan.tumblr.com/health

To start you off...

>www.theradicalvegan.tumblr.com/health
nigga I am not reading all that shit

can you narrow it down to the important part, where it proves that a vegan diet is better than any diet that has even a little bit of animal products?

Again, I recommend looking into it yourself. There are studies out there, you just have to use a little Google-fu. If you aren't willing to do that, I question how willing you are to be "convinced".

If you need a little push, check out Dr. Michael Gregor's videos. He sites many studies in each one, with links so you can read the studies yourself, so you don't have to take mine, or his, word for it.

Better question: does there need to be a justification?

>Again, I recommend looking into it yourself
this is how I know someone on the internet is full of shit. They make a claim, pretend it's obvious, and when you ask them to back it up they either act like it's so obvious they shouldn't have to back it up, or they link you to some unreasonably huge amount of stuff to read, or tell you to google it yourself.

Your claims are discarded, until you back them up in a reasonable and concise manner.

I bid you good day sir

>A vegan diet has been shown countless times to be optimal for human health and to reverse health issues caused by eating animal products

Yeah you're not cherry picking at all bud, you've just got all the right facts :^)

Not the fedora you are arguing with, but its never unreasonable to give someone some google search terms and tell them to research for themselves. He took you to the well, its your choice to drink or not. For the record, you sound stupider of the two of you.

The casein study you are referencing is bullshit. I'll go ahead and assume it's the same one covered in that garbage documentary Forks Over Knives?

While I wasn't the one to link the tumblr links, your way of describing it as an "unreasonably huge amount of stuff to read" tells me you're not willing to educate yourself, and would rather be spoon-fed.

I'm not here to do that. I'm here to have a rational conversation that you don't seem to be willing to have.

>Since cooked meat is considered to be a level one carcinogen, the way I'd answer that is with an analogy; is not smoking at all better than just smoking a little bit?

Lots of stuff is carcinogenic if you consume too much of it. Like sunlight. Are you going to cut sunlight out of your life? Oh, I forgot, you live in ur mums basement.

Anyway let's assume I even believe you about cooked meat causing cancer, even if you only eat a little bit (I don't believe it but whatever). There's still eggs, dairy, sushi, lots of other stuff that vegans also don't eat. Does ALL of that cause cancer too, even if you only eat a little bit?

>samefagging this hard

Well, "some other guy", I guess if the tumblr link is so reasonable and concise, you can post a quick rundown in this thread?

You were triggered over someone claiming the studies they read were of veganism vs Western diet. Your rebuttal was "I hate when people spread ignorance."

Then when someone asks for credible sources you link blogs and YouTube videos...

He's lying only processed meats and bacon are level one carcinogens. Red meats are a level 2 or probable cause of cancer.

Lmao, here's a link to a rebuttal. sciencebasedmedicine.org/death-as-a-foodborne-illness-curable-by-veganism/

examine.com/nutrition/scientists-just-found-that-red-meat-causes-cancer--or-did-they/

That's about as sciencey as your going to get. And the long and short of it is that YES nitrates and nitrites in meat aren't good for us. Other meats seem to be just fine unless you're eating them every meal of your day.
The truth of the matter is that if you're looking for a silver bullet answer to "Is _____ bad for you?" the best and most honest answer you can get is "It's complicated"

ah yes, the IARC, the agency that at the point it reviewed 1000 substances, it said that exactly 999 of them cause cancer. Surely THEY wouldn't fear monger!

thanks, so you agree that it is unjustifiable to claim that the strict vegan diet is healthier than eating a little bit of animal products

Lurk more

I don't want to live that much longer so I just do stuff I enjoy and that feels good

Here's a counter-rebuttal

donmatesz.blogspot.com/2013/02/harriet-halls-critique-of-gregers.html

>this is how I know someone on the internet is full of shit. They make a claim, pretend it's obvious, and when you ask them to back it up they either act like it's so obvious they shouldn't have to back it up, or they link you to some unreasonably huge amount of stuff to read, or tell you to google it yourself.
>
>Your claims are discarded, until you back them up in a reasonable and concise manner.
>
>I bid you good day sir

This is gonna be my new copypasta when some dipshit makes a claim and then says "its not my job to educate you" when asked to back it up

Your question is too vague. A strict vegan diet could consist of a guy eating vegan cupcakes all day every day.

If you're asking the question - Can I eat one serving per day of fish or chicken and one serving of eggs or dairy and still be as "healthy" as your average vegan? My personal answer would be you fucking betcha... but the honest answer would STILL be "it's complicated" because the state of nutrition is more like religion than it is science.

I don't think my questions are unfair given that people like this faggot have posted their autism ITT

>literally cites YouTube videos as counter claims

He still makes good points, but that's just some inane shit.

lol

yeah, doing enjoyable things reduces stress which is measurably good for you

Yeah
Humans are omnivores

To be fair, shit tons of things cause cancer. The only thing that matters are the chances of causing cancer. Even if 999 things cause cancer, that doesn't mean they probably cause cancer. The sun causes cancer, does that mean I'm fear-mongering for simply stating it does?

twitter.com/wthfilm/status/846787896879153153

You have to start debunking every stupid thing you say before you debunk every stupid thing other people say. Otherwise, you look like the ignorant little shit they are.

Which is what I see you as right now, you ignorant little shit.

>post a monkey and not a gorilla

veganbiologist.com/2016/01/04/humans-are-not-herbivores/

so if everything in reality causes cancer why tell people little individual things so they can spaz out trying to avoid them? Let them know how to minimize risk, i.e. wear sunscreen, eat LESS red meat, don't smoke, etc.

don't you think some people have a genetic predisposition for eating meat? I think some people can thrive off a vegan diet while others would quite literally lose their minds.

would forcing a vegan diet on these individuals make sense if they develop mental health issues and experience poor quality of life?

freedom and the free market has always been the solution.

any have advice on maximizing plant based protein? share some info. that's what the internet is for

they taste good
fuck you cucked vegeterians you're literally missing out on half the diet

There is none so far. The science doesn't support veganism. However meat consumption should gp down drastically in favor of vegetables/fruits/whole grains and dairy is worrysome all around (though I love some cheese from time to time).

Aside from geographical locations that prohibit a vegan diet, no. Not really.

Arctic, barren landscapes, inedible flora, starvation otherwise, nutrient diversity...

Lentils are absolutely great, so are some of the more protein rich beans. Soy is also a good source but I dislike the taste. The people sperging about phytoestrogens are morons, you'd need to consume a shit ton of soy foods for it to make any noticeable difference.

What about people allergic to legumes?

here you go, faggot. i hope you stay on that weak bitch diet and get cancer.

telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/03/29/long-term-vegetarian-diet-changes-human-dna-raising-risk-of-canc/

You realise that's not even about veganism, right?

Not them, but just came across this and remembered your post:
mindbodygreen.com/0-28742/what-happens-when-you-eat-just-one-fatty-meal.html

Studies are linked in the article for anyone who wants to read them.

>implying a vegan diet isn't more restrictive than a vegetarian diet
did you even read the article?

>advocating for animals to never be born
>denying the chance for life to exist
>encouraging the extinction of most factory farmed species and subspecies

Do you keep any pets? Any of them eat meat? I'm sure many vegantarians do and don't even see the hypocrisy

B12, maybe omega-3 fatty acids? Who knows for sure? But there's certainly no reason to consume the amount of animal products in the current Western diet.

Very hard to get a complete deficiency in anything with a "normal" diet containing meat and dairy (not talking about the "bone broth for babies" types). You need to have more of a clue about nutrition as a vegetarian.

Only if it' s "home grown."

What does that have to do with veganism? There are lean meats as well as fish, also there are highly saturated vegetable fats.

>eat meat
>have healthy testosterone levels
>be able to build muscle easily
>not need to supplement your diet with vitamins
>eat delicious food regularly
>make the perfectly reasonable decision that the emotions or wellbeing of animals that would not even exist if humans didnt breed them are irrelevant ethically, intellectually, technically, and on every scale of time
>live an enjoyable life as a functional male and die at 75 from some kind of inevitable cancer

>be vegan
>hormonally female
>testicles are decoration
>must put in way more work to build less quality muscle
>more prone to depression due to heavy reliance on grains and legumes
>more prone to gynecomastia
>teeth erode way faster
>reliant on vitamin supplements or unnaturally fortified food
>take pity on animals that were bred to be too stupid and have hips too wide to survive in nature
>less painful shits
>social life is at least somewhat constrained due to your diet and the social implications that go with it
>delicious food that obeys your dietary constraints is significantly more expensive than equally delicious non-vegan foods
>live until youre 110, but go senile by the time youre 95, watch all of your friends die in the last decades of your life

Its ultimately your choice.

Not how science works you retard.

>I make unfounded claims based on nothing but shit I pull out of my ass as I go and greentext them

No, vegans have strong arguments in the health and cost sections of their ideas.

But there is one reason why it's irrelevant: I like the taste of real meat.

I don't care about anything else, fuck your moral arguments, I have the ability to buy and consume meat and I will. You can't change the fact that I love meat in my mouth.

Not an argument.

Not really, your a fucking omnivore. Have yourself a varied diet and and don't binge or get excessive with your shit and you'll be fine unless you need to adjust your diet to a workout regime or lifestyle.

Mods only prune shit they find personally disagreeable.
Try making a thread about fatshaming and see how fast you get banned.

Animal fats are good for your skin in a way that no vegetable fat is. This is why vegans have such fucked-up skin.
And obligatory muh b12

There is no proven benefits to abstaining from meat, only to abstaining from excessive quantities of meat, which any dipshit could figure out.

fuck you vegans
youtube.com/watch?v=8BQBvwq12r8

Literally nothing, vegans seem to think fat only comes from animals.

the argument is that humans don't need meat, while some pets like cats are true carnivores.

vegans who feed their cats a vegan diet should be shot

I actually know multiple vegans who have vegan cats. It's the same as feeding cats Science Diet kibble, except the vegans at least monitor their health and adjust their pH if needed.

He didn't say animal products have nutrients you can't get in plant products, but that nutrients from animal products are more bioavailable. That means your body will absorb more of a nutrient from an animal product than a plant product even if they both have the same amount of it.

A few studies have also shown that people who don't eat meat have less muscle mass than people who do eat it even considering all other factors. This is probably a bad thing, although not a huge deal it's still something to consider.