Redpill me on the trivium

What reason is that?

>there's a reason why we don't do this shit anymore.

And I'm sure we can connect it directly to the widespread illiteracy and dysfunction of the West. That's more real and effecting than any wacky immigration theory.

but why is the trivium a solution to that, why not just do what we're doing but with teachers that give a shit like in Finland

Did you seriously fall for that?

Let me paint a picture.

>These tools will allow you to be a better thinker and communciator, which will surely enrich your life.
>>but, sir, whats the point of them?
>Well, you see, another benefit includrs being able to bettet navigate this world of ever increasing informational noise and distraction, surely you can see the benef-
>>BUT WHY SHOULD WE USE THIS??

But I could also just start with the Greeks and I'll be a better thinker right

>grammar
what kind if autist would read that for fun? english is a shitty language but it's one strength is that it's always changing. grammar rules be damned. just write in whatever style you want my dude

Those aren't style books like Strunk & White. Those are grammar books that point out descriptive rules and how they communicate information in the English language. And since when is self-improvement about fun? "I thought logic would kick ass but grammar? Nah man that's boring as fuck."

You can't go wrong with the Greeks either, but again knowledge of the Trivium can only help you as you go.

For example if you study rhetoric you'll become intensely aware of the way people use words to manipulate and paint pictures that suit their own needs. You may have already developed awareness of this in other ways, but it certainly wouldn't hurt to refine that natural understanding. Same with grammar and logic in regards to communication and thinking clearly and more deeply.

Okay fair enough. But why start here? Why not start with philosophy or psychology? hell this is Veeky Forums, why not start with literature?

Because you were supposed to start with the Trivium, that's what they taught you in elementary school. But, let's be honest, you didn't really learn it as well as you should have.

Think about what these tools are.
>Grammar
>Logic
>Rhetoric

These are quite literally the atomic particles of everything you just mentioned and more, since they pertain directly to how you think and communicate.

What is philosophy without rhetoric and logic? What is it psychology without them, especially in applied forms such as marketing and counseling?
And what is literature without an authoritative handle on grammar?

>These are quite literally the atomic particles of everything you just mentioned and more, since they pertain directly to how you think and communicate.
But so does psychology and philosophy. And why stop there? What about mathematics and thinking?

>And what is literature without an authoritative handle on grammar?
What is Ulysses? What is Finnegan's Wake? Idk, there's a lot of artistic expression that's being left out.

Philosophy has its roots in the topics covered by the Trivium, there's no way around that. If you read the Greeks you'd know this. They get SUPER into rhetoric and logic.

Psychology is more or less an extension of philosophy that (relatively) recently developed into its own science.

Now Mathematics is in it's own category, but is very closely allied with Logic, so good try.

>What is Ulysses? What is Finnegan's Wake? Idk, there's a lot of artistic expression that's being left out.
You aren't going to play the type of games Joyce did without a good command of the language, Grammar is a huge part of that.

That's not to say you can't be a good storyteller if you're not steeped in grammar books, but again they can only HELP you become a better one.

In the end, you choose how you want to educate yourself, but I don't see the point in resisting something that clearly worked for centuries.

Seriously, just a little thought into what these elements actually are will tell you everything you'd want to know on their practicability. It's not just a meme some user just cooked up. I've studied it on my own for years now.

You know? I think you've convinced me to do some more thinking into this. You probably should have leaned more towards rhetoric than grammar now that I think about it, though mechanically grammar is important (at least being a master of the grammar in your own time). But I think you're right. I concede.

If it were up to me, I would make a "quadrivium" or maybe even a "quinquevium" (idk Latin best attempt) with grammar, logic, rhetoric, mathematics, and history (history included in the V-ium only). Everything else can be understood by acquiring factual knowledge and organizing them using those basic foundations.

i.e., what is learning about science? learning about the details of theories and how they come to be (grammar, logic, mathematics)? what is economics? literally all 5 subjects.

It's all good user, I still have a ways to go too.

You might find it interesting that the classic quadrivium consisted of arithmetic, geometry, music and astronomy.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quadrivium
GIFY

Its for stupid children still obsessed with 'muh romans' and 'muh greeks'.
The Trivium is propaganda and 'fake news'.
>These tools will allow you to be a better thinker and communciator
Why? How?
>which will surely enrich your life.
Why? How? Why is this a good think?
>>Well, you see, another benefit includrs being able to bettet navigate this world of ever increasing informational noise and distraction, surely you can see the benef-
Still not a reason. The student in your pseudo-dialogue is clearly the proper type of skeptic, whereas the teacher is a philhelene dogmatist too stuck up his own olive-stinking ass to apply 'critical thinking' to itself and the totality of 'logic'.
>>Grammar
>>Logic
>>Rhetoric
No child, they are the only the particles of bad philosophy.

>Why? How? Why is this a good think?
So you don't write 'think' instead of 'thing'

Do you feel in charge?

HAHAHA THIS PERSON MADE A SIMPLE TYPO WHILE TYPING FAST HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHUSASGHJOSDHJ TYHEYRER LE FUCKING LE DUMB XDDDDD
Literally kys you cunt-nosed little rodent.
I am in charge.

A bigger respect for early education methods and assuming you retained it the ability to express yourself slightly more clearly.

It isnt a magical guide to happiness and wisdom though so if you go into it for that you will be quite disappointed.

As for the opportunity cost its kind of dubious but if it gets you reading and thinking it might be worthwhile

Maybe the 5th element should be fine arts. Who knows.

Yeah but that's some fag medieval shit. I'm talking about a modern quadrivium.

As the guy whose been harping about it all thread: it's really just a means to sharpen the tools you already have.

I understand, my post was more about dealing with the issues the kind of hyperbole in the picture can produce.

>learning to fish won't automatically prevent you from starving

To put it into metaphors youll understand I wanted to ensure the OP would get the idea that

>Starving? Well learning to fish is the same if not more important than actually fishing

>Fishing methods were perfected 1600 years ago anything else is not worth looking at

*wouldnt

Where did the chart say it was the only thing out there and you shouldn't do anything else?

>it was the only thing out there and you shouldn't do anything else?

I never claimed or implied that it did. What I did say is that the hyperbole in it can inadvertently lead to such flawed conclusions therefore its necessary to ensure people are aware of them from the start.

Which is why I said "If you go into it for........you will be quite disappointed" and not just "you will be disappointed"

What do you consider to be hyperbole?

"Studying the the subjects that pertain to the mind in order to seek the perfection of human faculties"

"Finding a substitute for the liberal arts education they deserve but never received"

in what way are these statements hyperbole?

the first statement is literally ripped off the cover for the book Trivium by SMJ, meaning it is a statement of purpose. that was its considered role in education. whether it's fruitful is another story.

the second statement is literally prefaced by half a paragraph of "this can't replace a good education but it's a start". how is that even remotely hyperbole? sounds more like a positive attitude.

and I'm literally a faggot for saying literally twice. time to go to sleep

Compare it to other reading guides for instance pic related.

Notice the shift from merely describing the material to hyping it far more than just a statement of purpose.

With the second I guess its a matter of opinion there.

Goodnight user

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It would be extremely painful.

I took multiple college classes on both grammar and logic. I've also read a few texts and books on rhetoric in my own time. I imagine the sum of this reading must at least amount to the content of the books pictured here.

Do I regret it? No. But honestly I don't think that my cognitive powers are vastly stronger than the were before. In fact I'd hesitatate to say that I'm really any smarter at all. To do it over I'd probably spend the time reading some more Wallace Stevens or something.

Also, unless you are particularly interested in the English Langauge, I'd not advise just plowing through a book on English grammar. The time would be much better spent learning another language, and you would learn an almost equal amount about grammar.

The second book might be a good idea because it'll teach you rules in the context of linguistics. Learning Latin is also a good idea for that purpose because it's highly synthetic.

>a mind for numbers

I recommend you just start doing math rather than theorizing how to get good at it. Also, studying logic thinking that it'll help you think more clearly is ridiculous.

t. someone who studies mathematical logic

You're a big guy.

The title is a misnomer, since the book isn't about math, though it could help you get a feel for problem-solving if you use it to effectively study. It's about the psychology of learning, and it gets most of the basics down that'll come in handy later if you're not disciplined yet. If you don't want to buy the book, you can also take the free MOOC offered by the author.

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