/ccg/ - Classical Conservative General

>There is nothing conservative about war. For at least the last century war has been the herald and handmaid of socialism and state control. It is the excuse for censorship, organized lying, regulation and taxation. It is paradise for the busybody and the nark. It damages family life and wounds the Church. It is, in short, the ally of everything summed up by the ugly word ‘progress.’
-Peter Hitchens

NOT classical liberalism. NOT perennialism. Classical conservatism: en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traditionalist_conservatism

Pic related is an excellent introduction to classical conservative though, because the second half is not a biography, but an overview of the philosophy. The human individual is created by society, he is only an animal otherwise. There individualism before society ultimately breaks down the individual, who loses sense of higher purpose and capacity for self reflection in a sea of purely material urges.

Other urls found in this thread:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Augusto_Del_Noce
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reinhart_Koselleck
youtube.com/watch?v=GrubWbOP7IM
twitter.com/SFWRedditImages

Stop opposing monarchies.

Veeky Forums isn't the larping board

How do Classical Conservatives view people like Guenon and Evola?

Not very well. Perennialism is subversive to Christianity. We extol tradition for practical, down to earth reasons, not some goofy, esoteric ones. We stress actual civic involvement and making a difference, not cyclical fatalism.

Eddie Burke was a pie

Classical conservatism is an active strain in philosophy and civic theory, it's not just reactionary idealism. Practical, situational, local. It's not an ideology as such, almost a skepticism of ideology, which Burke refers to as "geometrical politics"

Here's some conservative thinkers according to a Dutch book:
1. Montesquieu (1689-1755)
2. David Hume (1711-1776)
3. Samuel Johnson (1709-1784)
4. Publius (1787-1788)
5. Edmund Burke (1730-1797)
6. Joseph de Maistre (1753-1821) and Louis de Bonald(1754-1840)
7. Georg Wilhelm Friedrich Hegel (1770-1831)
8. August Wilhelm Rehberg (1757-1836)
9. Juan Donoso Cortes (1809-1853)
10. Felicite Robert de Lamennais (1782-1854)
11. Alexis de Tocqueville (1805-1859)
12. Friedrich Julius Stahl (1802-1861)
13. Guillaume Groen van Prinsterer (1801-1876)
14. Walter Bagehot (1826-1877)
15. Jacob Burckhardt (1818-1897)
16. John Henry Newman (1801-1890)
17. Henry Adams (1838-1918)
18. Abraham Kuyper (1837-1920)
19. Irving Babbitt (1865-1933)
20. Johan Huizinga (1872-1945)
21. Nicolai Hartmann (1882-1950)
22. Ludwig Wittgenstein (1889-1951)
23. José Ortega y Gasset (1883-1955)
24. C.S. Lewis (1898-1963)
25. T.S. Eliot (1888-1963)
26. Wilhelm Röpke (1899-1966)
27. Christopher Dawson (1889-1970)
28. Leo Strauss (1899-1973)
29. Herman Dooyeweerd (1894-1977)
30. Bertrand de Jouvenel (1903-1987)
31. James Burnham (1905-1987)
32. Michael Oakeshott (1901-1990)
33. Otto Friedrich Bollnow (1903-1991)
34. Friedrich von Hayek (1899-1992)
35. Christopher Lasch (1932-1994)
36. Robert Nisbet (1913-1996)
37. W. Aalders (1902-2005)
38. Alasdair MacIntyre

>Joseph de Maistre

>tfw you're at Stage Four already

I've begun to be unironically anti-democratic. I've started to think the best form of government is what Venice had during its heyday.

>masonic revolt

Maistre was a mason. Also a bit crazy if you ask me, but he certainly is well worth reading

Burke was a liberal moron

Not really. He thought power should be accountable, foreign cultures should be respected, and that slavery should be illegal or at least subject to inspections to ensure humane treatment. He was not liberal in the way Paine was, and latter attacked him severely.

Bump since this is interesting.

What book? Hopefully a translation exists.

>We extol tradition for practical, down to earth reasons, not some goofy, esoteric ones. We stress actual civic involvement and making a difference, not cyclical fatalism.

The empiricists are the very ones who have fulfilled the technophilia of the Enlightenment. They've built social organization on the dampened soil left behind by the platitudes of moral and economic philosophers who've achieved nothing but plowed the way for social rationalization and mythical utilitarianism. Paredo was right that the aristocratic class doesn't disappear, it just continuously reinterprets itself to fit the ends of a new system. The entire modern edifice is built on the premise that one can divine human action in a discursive, organized manner; their authority is self-justified by their efficiency, a mythical conjuration, appropriate for decadent priests.

The individual is non-existent, it is virtual; but the platitudes of empirical philosophers have done nothing but reduce their personalities, which is the mask that gives them any being whatsoever, into a reified object, defined by, on the one hand, their social and sentimental affinities, on the other, their suitable application in a carefully woven fabric of securing mechanical domination. Such narrow-minded worldview abolishes anything outside the narrow, conjured scope of social utility and abstract formula, always at the service of the former.

So you can see, the "conservatives" and "traditionalists" were defenders of values that were total caricatures of their proper function: property. They were entirely incapable of disposing of their narrow, modern outlook, and so failed to understand that the property of ancient aristocracy depended entirely on religious worship, the mediating demons of ancestors. Once property was reduced to an abstract, theoretical principle, it could not withstand the banal moral criticisms of liberal philosophers and hence has been reduced to a mere epithet of an individual, identified with various educational and mechanical properties, which is now the only thing that defines them. Property in the original sense has been reduced to mere geography.

The conservatives are now merely the buttress of a lifeless, cold, mechanical system that provides no existential meaning and serves to defend social property that is entirely mythical and false. Some have even explicitly supported the idea of a "noble myth," if this doesn't spell out the true intentions of the conservatives there and done.

pic related

I'm rather reactionary but I'm not a huge fan of Christianity as a moral compass and/or a political one. How can the position of the Monarch be consolidate and respected with the whole "God Ordained" mumbo jumbo?

I believe the post-Julio-Claudians did it right where they adopted politicians into the Imperial family, or in the case of any decent heir they were actually trained from birth.

I also genuinely believe in a world where the idea of the monotheistic God is dead we should explore different or reinvent old God forms to benefit true human nature.

I'm biased because I'm a romaboo and I love the gods of the past, so take this with a grain of salt, but I think we can all agree that the mindset of the ancients is beneficial in every facet of life, especially politics and religion.

>without

I've become very interested in traditionalist conservatism lately but the one thing that kinda bothers me is the isolationism that many seem to advocate for. I agree with the Peter Hitchens quote which was posted and I'm annoyed by the neocons who think they can remake every country into a modern liberal democracy or who advocate for regime change in Russia or Syria while ignoring or without seriously considering what the consequences would be but I really don't see what good it would do if we retreated back into our own borders while our enemies fill the void we leave behind.

Do you understand my frustration or am I misunderstanding what paleocons and traditionalist conservatives are advocating for? I'm basically concerned that some sections of the right even though many of their criticisms of US foreign policy are legitimate end up sounding like or actually siding with the far-left on these issues.

I'm really interested in getting into the works of Augusto Del Noce and Reinhart Koselleck, is someone here familiar with them?

From wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Augusto_Del_Noce

>Against the prevailing Marxist and neo-positivist opinions of his contemporaries, he always maintained that philosophical ideas influence the course of human history, and that modern history in particular can only be understood as the unfolding of certain philosophical options (rationalism, immanentism, scientism). In fact, one of his core ideas was that modern history, if correctly interpreted, provides the best vindication of classical metaphysics by showing that rationalism leads to contradictory outcomes, as exemplified by the trajectory of Marxism. In some of his best known works [11] he advanced the thesis that Marxism suffers what he called an "heterogenesis of ends," meaning that it is destined to triumph and self-destruct at the same time, due to its internal contradictions. To triumph, because Marx’s radical atheism and materialism are the most consistent outcomes of European rationalism. To self-destruct because, as soon as the revolutionary dream fades away, Marxian historical materialism must degenerate into absolute relativism and open the way to a “perfectly bourgeois” society, a de-humanized world that does not recognize any permanent order of values and in which alienation becomes complete.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reinhart_Koselleck

>The problem is that the moralism and utopianism of modern ideologies is purely speculative and can offer no viable alternatives to prevailing institutions and practices. Hence, Enlightenment anti-statism creates a "permanent crisis"; a relapse into a kind of ideological civil war; which had culminated enduring political instability and particular in the 20th century phenomena of Soviet and Nazi totalitarianism and the ideological conflict of the Cold War. Koselleck argues that politics is better understood from the point of view of public servants, politicians, and statesman who are embedded within political institutions and immanently aware of their constraints and limitations, rather than from the supposedly disinterested perspective of philosophers and other social critics.[7] His aim is to re-politicize contemporary discussions of politics and infuse them with a sense that conflict is an inevitable part of public life and an unavoidable factor in all political decision making, an argument reminiscent of Carl Schmitt, Koselleck's most important mentor.[8][9]

He was in his youth and later on renounced it. He wrote specifically against it in fact, especially what's now known as ecumenism.

Does anyone have a beginner chart? If not, can someone please recommend me a few books to start with?

" I am very smart" The Thread.

He was actually Illuminati

History of philosophy volumes 1-3 by Frederick Copleston
Plato, Republic, Laws, Trial and Death dialogues, Timaeus
Aristote, Ethics, Politics, Metaphysics, Categories
Selected Cicero
This should be a nice start with quality ground building

This.

Read some Thomas Paine.

Disraeli was no isolationist. Neither was Burke, who tried to organize intervention in France.

"Reddit" the post

I never suspected Burke or Disraeli. I'm really talking about american paleocons and traditionalists. The type you might find writing for The American Conservative.

That's because America is trigger happy. If Mexico was overrun by a coup hostile to America they'd support intervention, but they are rightfully selective about it because we are Napoleonic imperialists who try to "enlighten" people with our systems

Hey, I doubt it.
It is fairy recent book and rather short. It just goes to some conservative thinkers, including some Dutch, and their ideas and life. After every thinker there's some suggested reads if you want to dig deeper.
One of the authors is Thierry Baudet, now a politican. I'm not sure what to think of Baudet but I enjoyed the books. Yes, there are actually two parts, so two books. They are: Conservatieve Vooruitgang and Revolutionair Verval.

Unironically this. Democracy was a mistake.

Life was a mistake:
youtube.com/watch?v=GrubWbOP7IM
It shouldn't have happened, but it did and suffering came into existence.

I wish I lived in a society where people had the humility to say that they are not particularly well-read or educated in any of the schools that are needed to make good decisions about the direction of the state, and therefore chose not to vote despite being able to.
I wish that people, despite their own concerns, wouldn't assign so much value to whatever grievance they have to the point that their feelings on the issue pose as being more relevant than the view of an expert who perhaps never experienced the grievance personally.
Words cannot describe how much I hate the mediocrity of modern politics in how it must stoop so low in order to accumulate the mandate to govern. The majority of politicians in my country don't even have any background in economics - even in the offices for the minister of finance.

Did Peter Hitchens really write that? It doesn't feel like his prose and I've never had him pegged for someone who gives much of a shit about taxation and regulation.

Yes, he was extremely vocal about his opposition to the War in Iraq.

I feel you.
But I'm not convinced that experts in power would solve all problems. Power dynamics are going to end up in stupid shit nonetheless.
I personally think we need even more seperation of power but what do I know.

The problem starts locally, especially at the family level and then community level. Government can only soar whatever sort it is, if it is in the midst of a well knit society.

This is a very disparate list, not sure much of it could be "classical conservative" according to OP. Publius was whiggish, de Maistre was a radical conservative (throne and altar-type guy, not at all like Burke), Hayek's a libertarian, Lasch a refugee from the old left, and Strauss and MacIntyre are both post-post-modern revisionists (as in, "Hey, maybe the ancients weren't so stupid after all?"). Still, good list, though.

>staying at stage 4
>not cycling endlessly

Quality list; it's more important to get one's basics down than to read to support one's (vaguely memey) politics.

Actually, leaving aside the question of truth and considering intellectual trends as fashion trends, I'm kind of wondering if classical conservative thought (even in the ecumenical sense in which Burke, Strauss, MacIntyre, and Tocqueville somehow all get along) is today what pomo gender theory was in the 70s-90s. That stuff was probably really exciting once, but it's been dominant for so long that any truth it had (if it had any) has been bastardized beyond all recognition. Imagine telling Foucault in '65 what Tumblr was, and that his books were going to be taught by every college schoolmarm in every sociology class from Los Angeles to Prague. Now that (e.g.) Burke is vaguely illicit, he's also vaguely sexy; ie, in the position that Derrida was in 1977. Not to mention the real edgelords like Evola, who's being treated as if he were the endgame of right-wing thought by the popular press (thus unintentionally endowing his kind of simplistic writings with a great amount of power).

Tradition being practical has nothing to do with emperical testing, it's based on trusting the dead

Tradition can be spiritual. If it is Christian. Perennialism is not Christian, it came out of Renaissance humanism.