What exactly is postmodernism?

The consequence of the collapse of all attempts to fundamentally describe or ground human knowledge through Enlightenment philosophy.

When there's Marxism in the universities.

Postmodernism - Subject matter which authors began to write about after we allowed (((((NON-WHITES))))) to fully integrate into our fully functional society, with the naive expectation that it would continue to be fully functional.

fuck me daddy

you have to pay him first, kohai

samefagging does not a witty joke make

>after we allowed (((((NON-WHITES))))) to fully integrate into our fully functional society
>France integrated Algeria in the 50s and 60s
Nigger what the fuck are you talking about, they became an entire separate country and it's not like metropolitan France wanted the PiedsNoirs back. Read Camus you edgy teenage fuck.

it's a postmodernism thread; stop harshing on the recursion, me.
t. (You)
PS nice semicolon use xox

does it become witty if i'm not samefagging?

They are taking our jobs and destroying our white heritage with postmodernism and didgeridoo "music" as they would call it, fucking relativist postmodern didgeridoo-niggers, aboriginal soiboi cucks!

>getting triggered this hard by simple, historically accurate observation
>makes reference to an author who died before postmodernism became relevant
>uses the "nigger" word
>calls someone else an "edgy teenage fuck"
we're done here, user
my man

Read Heidegger. He is the essential thinker. The French theorists simply recycle him over and over.

After modernism

>australia attempts another literary hoax on modernism
>it's a bigger success than angry penguins
i knew the kermit voice was too good to be true. how did you get the canadians to go along with it?

...

>can't quote
>we're done
you haven't even started newfig, the black panthers were the recognised US embassy for Algeria after the war, but you haven't even covered the camus part to get to that episode of history. the reason why terrorism takes off in that period is because the IRA are the other government the newly decolonized african countries recognised. you missed the english and french colonies going off to rule themselves and thought it was a period of integration, so you're american and lost at life and basic education on world history and literature. read camus, it's where you're at and will be informative. unlike whatever timeline of history you're operating by which misses where all the CIA money of the era went and just want to focus on the FBI spending which is nothing.

You seem like an educated person.

What has been the core cause behind the rising acceptance for immigration in Germany, France and Britain, formerly nationalist countries?

I do not believe in Jewish conspiracy metaphysics and the like, I want an actual explanation.

Try the archive you dumb faggot

>didgeridoo-niggers

>tfw you have spend too much time on /x/

good luck getting anything sensible out of him
he read the long-winded bullshit some some sad frenchie who died 80 years ago and now, as a result, genuinely believes he knows everything about modern living

France's problem is different to the other two and relates to that period when Sartre was saying he'd prefer to vote for the God he didn't believe in rather than deGaulle. France promised a lot of Africa citizenship to fight the Germans, while metropolitan France was getting its ass whooped by them, and then pardoned a lot of the people who sold out France to the Nazis, didn't give the soldiers citizenships, and there's been all kinds of shit since. It was a big fuck up and there's a lot of French army who smuggled in Africans because they were in their platoon, so there's generations of those along with other ex-colony problems. Germany and UK have much more distant colonies, and the UK at the same time was taking in Ugandan Asians just because Uganda was having a dictatorship, and took in lots of West Indies and there wasn't really that much trouble with them until Enoch, and even that didn't last long.

The modern phenomenon in both those countries is they're not going to grow their economies without very cheap production. The problem with immigration in those countries isn't ex colonies, but the 90s blow up of the Balkans again. Look at application stats. The governments trying to take in refugees from Syria approve most of the ones they can find, but they can't find enough people from there to outweigh the number of people who just don't want to live in Macedonia.

The countries putting up fences are traditionally those that bore the brunt of invasion from Asia, but the UK and Germany never really had a problem with taking in refugees (except maybe Germany during some of it's more interesting governments) and what's caused their sudden willingness to take refugees is mostly financial. They need both wealthy immigrants, and immigrants willing to do slave labour shit to keep the economy going when other people aren't breeding. BMW is part owned by Saxony, but it's not Saxons working there: it's Turks and Poles and it's not much different in their UK factories either. Germany (especially Prussia) has always been into that kind of the government says we need more workers so more workers, government says we need to shut up, we better shut up approach, but Britain is going through a cultural crisis unlike the Germans. That crisis would still be there for the Brits even if they kicked all the foreigners out and bred enough to replace their population, but it's exacerbated by the presence of both former colonial and immigrant cultures which don't have that problem with cohesion.

France is living in its own world though. You might want to read a bit about DeGaulle before Camus, and even that's only one side of the disintegration. A lot of the era's literature is about dissociation in France because the place is being torn about six different ways.

>all these people not understanding postmodernism as it applies to literature
Modernism is classically trained artists creating intelligent parody of form beyond romantic symbolism. They were separate from life's paraxis, by virtue of the industrial revolution, so postmoderism is when the new youth, who've grown up with modernism, become separate from the inspiration of their art via the digital revolution.

As a result, classically inspired modernism with both authenticity to the aesthetic and deconstruction of symbolism that resonates with the youth of today. Think near-future sci-fi, Gibson Neuromancer type stuff, or Cassandra-style self-referential essays combined with a historical re-imagining in context.

Anyone who says super meta-gonzo slipstream naked lunch with computers and Abe Lincon nonsense is technically right, but only if its executed with tact and post-ironic seriousness that most authors can't quite get right.

it's not post-ironic. modernism is a rejection of classical training, and postmodernism relies heavily on SWTG type shit being necessary to understanding the joke/tragedy. modernism is the one with "make it new", while postmodernism is "nothing is new".

most postmodernism is before the digital revolution, especially in literature. it's more dominated by the nuclear revolution. most of the major names of it were dead or irrelevant by the 80s, and there was a new wave in the 80s and 90s, but those are people who grew up with postmodernism.

people who were born before postmodernism in literature are older than WWII. there were people who were in college when postmodernism came out in literature who were born before WWI ended. you're dragging the timeline forward like it's not been around for generations, and like it wasn't already huge when your parents were probably not yet conceived.

That's a very reasonable point, but I usually go based on epoch. You can argue that modernism really started in the late 1800's and continued through until 1960-ought, and I'm looking at it the same way. There is something distinct established concurrently while the old movement peters out.

I'm not sure if there's something culturally distinct that separates us from them, so to speak, but within 10 years there will be with some overlap in the now, and digital is a pretty broad interpretation, just like industrial was.

modernism didn't really survive 1960-2000 if that's what you're saying. postmodernism didn't even survive that well through the latter half of that period, and while you can still find some authors writing in it, it's about as common as modernism or rabelaisian poetry: you can find someone doing it but modernism's lost most of its strength by the late 1930s when you start seeing Auden, Waugh and others moving back to classics. Hell, Auden's Age of Anxiety is 1947, and most people only know that now as a definition of postmodernism rather than an AngloSaxon poetry book.

stephenhicks.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/Hicks-EP-Full.pdf

No, what I was saying is that modernism died completely in the 60's when postmodernism was already alive, and postmodernism is dying while something unidentified builds; cycles of decay and rebirth.

I try to look at postmodern thematically: constant anxiety with time and place, the radical subjectification of the individual, locating and alienating the viewer before bringing them back into the narrative ect. The late 80's early 90's postmodernism is self-referential based on influence, and I feel that epitomized the movement.

But you are an educated person and a cool guy. I respect your opinion on the matter.

I had a philosophy teacher in community college say it was the devil. I go to school in Tennessee.

youtube.com/playlist?list=PLA34681B9BE88F5AA

I read your numbers wrong. What you're describing is the vein in the 50s that took off and spawned a million So It Goes tattooed hipster girls. The classicism I'm talking about lasts through most of it regardless of popularity, but the boom of popularity is the sci-fi nuclear cold war audience you're talking about. Beyond that though, there's a lot of other postmodern genre mash-ups so placing it just as the sci-fi stuff misses that was just the mix that took off. Burroughs doing literal mash ups of books, or Waugh suddenly having a futuristic war scene and gas attack to end his high society comedy Vile Bodies is easier to explain when you see the sci-fi part as just another genre just another thing stemming from the Greeks/Zoraster/Babylon thing you linked up with now/then/whoever. The blending of fact and fiction makes a lot more sense that way too for me at least.

>Beyond that though, there's a lot of other postmodern genre mash-ups so placing it just as the sci-fi stuff misses that was just the mix that took off.
See, this is why I specifically listed Cassandra by Christa Wolf as the counterpoint to Neuromancer. It's a re-imagining of Troy from Cassandra's point of view, followed by a series of essays on the historical structure of the story, written by an east German woman in the 80's. I found that the academic adaptation of allegory was intrinsically postmodern because both parts of the book are linked. You need to read the book before you understand the essays, and without the essays you're experiencing a fraction of the completed work. Strict conceptions of genre are utterly dissolved and instead we get exactly what you were describing, where there's the creation of something new that is also "nothing new".

I also like God Emperor of Dune as an example of postmodern literature. It's a dense self-referential philosophical text where they deconstruct the original Dune, and layer philosophy into the narrative where it melds and becomes inseparable. Starship Troopers fills the same sort of niche, but that's just my Veeky Forums showing and I know you folks aren't a fan around these parts.

I originally described "magical realism" as postmodern, but I couldn't be assed to defend my position. Something about the combination of fantasy elements into a grounded historical narrative seemed to speak to the movement itself.

But Burroughs is one of my favorite authors, you have good taste.

I'm talking about the beginning of postmodernism, I should note that Waugh and Auden are borderline between modernism and postmodernism. They have all the trends of postmodernism that are going to continue through, like the disillusioned classical influence, but you can also make an argument for them being modernist, and their popularity doesn't survive the boom that makes people like Nabokov and Vonnegut take off for decades. They're the seeds, but very much on the cusp between modernism and postmodernism in the 1930s.

Speed plays a big part in that first take off with English authors and American ones (like Spark's flash forwards and Burrough's cut ups) and again in the 80s/90s take off, so there's a lot of similarities with people who are near or just at the start of postmodernism and that later burst which has less aliens but more of a Burroughs edge. You get more fascist shit in both, and the only guy who really took off from the sci-fi boom while still doing that shit is PKD and that is not a recommended path. BEE probably has more in common with someone like Isherwood than PKD or anyone in the sci-fi boom because it's working the thread that happened when the Germans were making amphetamines a standard supplement for everyone the first time and kind of faded to the background for a big part of postmodernism, but still forms its basis. Isherwood's definition of camp runs through a lot of the postmodern discussion but he's also in that cusp of near modernists.

a stupid fucking buzzword meme that has context dependent meaning and can be looked up at plato.stanford.edu

do your own homework, faggot

the ultimate perversion of reason

i thought that was utility monster

fuck off stanford he can just use a dictionary like a normal person.

>dictionary

you mean Google? I was trying to get him to go somewhere that wasn't Google or Wikipedia.

that way he could read something that isn't a blogpost or some shit a bored college student pulled out of his ass

you fuck off

Logistics companies like DHL, UPS and such

do kids not know dictionaries are books these days? jesus.

That's post: modem

Inexact.

It's the why the minimum wages hasn't increased in 40 years, why taxes keep increasing for working people, why unemployment is so high, why the education system sucks, why college is so expensive, why the economy is in the toilet, why the country's in debt, why the politicians are bought, why the tv lies, it's why the water is poison and the air is toxic.

I've been curious about this recently too. I have to admit I'm a pretty dumb and un-educated person but I think post-modernism is related to an acceptance of skepticism in philosophy, and use of irony, surprise and oddity in humor...

>vonnegut was a prophet
hi instagram

That's what I'm saying, man!

What comes "after" modernism, hence the prefix, in so far as it's reactionary to the tendencies of Modernism.

A style characterized by an incredulity toward meta-narratives. Juxtaposition and absurdity may be used to direct attention to the sheer plurality of individual perspective.

I call every movement, or "school of thought", a style. Regardless of the extent of it's reach. And this one is characterized primarily by an attitude of skepticism, much like existentialism.

it's a soviet fifth column intended to undermine western civilization from the inside.

a reaction to modern thought. that means it varies depending on the context.

basically a reaction to idealism, romanticism, sincerity, religion, community, "rules" "structure", etc. it's "progressive" subjective and anti-conservative.

for literature this could mean ignoring grammar ignoring typical story arch structure, ignoring any structure at all, being non-sensical, highly subjective

for visual art it could be self aware especially, dark, satirical / ironic, engage with the audience

for architecture it could be deconstructed, asymmetric, ignore modern aesthetics, or what something "ought to project", it could ignore utilitarianism in it's floorplan design, or any other modern ideal

it's extremely broad and medium/context dependent in regard to modern thought on that specific medium or ideology, but in general rejects objectivity across the board.

Faggotry.

Thanks a lot!

Even if the reason for the refugee acceptance in Germany is financial, I doubt it will be effective. Automation is replacing lots of low-end jobs here and large parts of the refugees so far are unemployed and a drag on the budget. We actually have many un- and underemployed Germans as well, it is not the 1960s anymore, when we lacked low-skill workers for assemblies.

Why do you say that Germany does not go through a cultural crisis? The current state of German art and popular culture is disastrous and there is barely a feeling of national cohesion anymore.

Which books about deGaulle would you recommend? I find France highly fascinating.

Actually, market fundamentalism is the reason for all of that

It basically is philosophy influenced by post-structuralism

>The problem with immigration in those countries isn't ex colonies, but the 90s blow up of the Balkans again.

I do not get this part.

Highly recommending the whole page:
meta-nomad.net/tag/postmodernism/

“For me, the last few years of the postmodern era have seemed a bit like the way you feel when you’re in high school and your parents go on a trip, and you throw a party. You get all your friends over and throw this wild disgusting fabulous party. For a while it’s great, free and freeing, parental authority gone and overthrown, a cat’s-away-let’s-play Dionysian revel. But then time passes and the party gets louder and louder, and you run out of drugs, and nobody’s got any money for more drugs, and things get broken and spilled, and there’s cigarette burn on the couch, and you’re the host and it’s your house too, and you gradually start wishing your parents would come back and restore some fucking order in your house. It’s not a perfect analogy, but the sense I get of my generation of writers and intellectuals or whatever is that it’s 3:00 A.M. and the couch has several burn-holes and somebody’s thrown up in the umbrella stand and we’re wishing the revel would end. The postmodern founders’ patricidal work was great, but patricide produces orphans, and no amount of revelry can make up for the fact that writers my age have been literary orphans throughout our formative years. We’re kind of wishing some parents would come back. And of course we’re uneasy about the fact that we wish they’d come back–I mean, what’s wrong with us? Are we total pussies? Is there something about authority and limits we actually need? And then the uneasiest feeling of all, as we start gradually to realize that parents in fact aren’t ever coming back–which means we’re going to have to be the parents.” – David Foster Wallace

Also, this, where Peterson talks about PoMo
greyenlightenment.com/postmodernism-its-about-facts-not-values/

the period of questioning rather than answering

but thats the motivation behind all of philosophy

most of the immigration applicants and the illegal immigration are from serbia/albania/macedonia/kosovo, the bits of the balkans that blew up in the 90s. while there are some fleeing current conflicts, most of the immigrant wave are people who have been trying to move out of the asshole of europe for decades. you can look at immigration application stats and most of the applicants aren't from deepest darkest syria, but romanians and places like that.

I have the statistics at hand, and for 2016, you are definitely wrong. The leading countries are Syria and Afghanistan.

Prior to 2015, you might have been right, that most applicants come from the economically hopeless Balkan countries. Wonder why they still are such miserable shitholes.

Then, I did not ask about the reasons behind immigration - these are obvious. I am wondering why immigration is so widely accepted and even welcomed in Germany, whereas France and the UK were much more defensive about it.

It really is for faggots

>I have the statistics at hand, and for 2016, you are definitely wrong. The leading countries are Syria and Afghanistan.
You mean in 2016 when the Macedonians shut down one of the main routes and suddenly the numbers went from 120,000~ to 20,000~ total migrants. Yeah, most of the remaining sixth are the non-Balkan problem.
Most charts around 2016 started counting only first time applicants too. There's a bit of fucking with statistics going on there.
>why are balkans shit?
Some of those countries are about a decade old and got the shit bombed out of them after the break up of communism, and Greece kind of exacerbates economic and trade problems in the region and will do for a while.

It's welcomed in Germany because they're trying to keep a German led economic bloc from going the way of Yugoslavia. The problem of money going to someone's family in another country there isn't the same, because German stability in a lot of ways relies on the euro not failing in those areas and doing better than expected, and it also relies on upping production in an industrial nation. France and the UK don't rely as much on industry or the Balkans not tanking, which is why they're also more likely to tell Germany they're leaving than Germany is to tell them they're leaving.

Italy's kind of getting fucked by the situation since they're more competent to deal with sea rescue of most any kind, and they're resentful because it's less of an optional duty, whereas the Irish who rescue a lot of the people floating in the Med are volunteering and have less stake and so they're less resentful. Germany kind of needs the immigrants and knows it, while the UK is falling for the American trap that they can close down industry and still grow from providing services, so they feel less okay about immigrants, even if they're French/other EU immigrants.
>book on deGaulle
sorry got this through lectures, but most of the postmodernists in France are around his era which fills out the colour of the different political positions around and supporting him.

By this stage we're not discussing postmodernism, so you two should probably go to Veeky Forums or one of the other boards for current events and such things. I don't want to start the creep of "newspapers are Veeky Forums" even though this shit is interesting. Have a good one lads, I'm going to try to resist the urge to reply here.

but germany doesnt need millions of unqualified workers, and the government (hopefully) knows that.

>nobody wants slave labour
You fo' real? The UK has a more obvious version of this where you get rich people keeping slaves in their basement around liberal London, but yes, Germany does need people to fill out its industrial sectors which is why their birth rate getting up to 1.5 per woman was a big deal (helped by migrant women). Preferably people who don't mind living in cramped apartments quietly near chemical factories and won't complain, but especially people who will have at least two kids and will pay tax towards pensions and believe in the stability of the currency set by Germany.
Unemployment in Germany is at a nearly 40 year low. Growth means employing even more.

>Unemployment in Germany is at a nearly 40 year low.
there is a huge deal of underemployment and temporary shit-tier jobs going on. wages are also nearly stagnating (falling in real terms for the lower 40%) and overall economic growth is low as well.

there are definite signs of overall economic stagnation visible, albeit its not as drastic as in the USA.

Those shit tier jobs have to be worked by someone. The reason why it's immigrants working those jobs, and willing to work the shit tier well paying ones in industrial cities, and willing to immigrate from other parts of Schengen to work there is because it's slightly better slavery than in France where you might get stabbed. It's not mostly Germans working those jobs. The USA South Park "they took our jobs" type exist in Germany, but do they seriously want their nice German children to get the job slicing kebab meet ahead of Ahmed? Probably not. The UK and US taking immigrants because they'll fill out high tier jobs and make world class institutions is a very different model to the Germans using Turks to make VW.

germans are experiencing wages stagnation as well. and the proportion of germans who have lower wages than in the 90s (40%) is higher than the proportion of immigrants in the population. job insecurity affects STEMfags and engineers as well, not only kebab slicers.

albeit i agree that there is neoliberal thinking behind the acceptance for immigrants in germany, i think its misleading and will severely backfire. the unemployment numbers for syrians and iraqis are catastrophic, as things stand right now.

I think the bigger problem is the Yugoslavia problem: what happens to Germany if the eurozone doesn't work and how's it going to deal with central and eastern Europe? Germany as an economic entity is much bigger than Germany as a nation. We'll have to meet back up in ten years to find out though, user.

the eurozone survived 2008 and the gang rape of the spanish, irish, portuguese, greek economies by finance, so i am pretty sure it will go on. the "collapse of the euro" and its damaging effects for southern europe were elaborated upon again and again and again and nothing happened.

i cant see germanys (economic) future negatively, this nation, after ww2, has always been very competent in economic matters. germany has been smart enough to keep its industry and to lower taxation on capital gains as much as possible, giving it an edge over the uk and france, respectively, by doing so.

and i am still convinced that automation and the disappearance of many jobs is an issue.

this is very noticeable in the german industry. despite far higher production output, it employs a bit less (!) people than in 1990 today. there is "jobless growth" in production and in some services.

Going by 1990 in Germany might be a bit misleading user.
I'm not euroskeptic at all, but Germany's deep investment in the eurozone going right, especially in the exCommie bloc, is what I'm talking about. They're terrified of what can go wrong in a bloc like that, which is why they hedge against that (sending wages back to backend-of-nowhere-slavia) much more than the French are willing to. A lot of those places are basically German satellites from the German point of view, which isn't how they see Spain or Ireland or the UK.

And Germany still has a pretty strong apprenticeship system, and there's a revival of interest in it. I think you're worrying about things that were never really going to be German jobs except under Kremlin rule, and Germany doesn't want that. They're hedging against that by treating central and eastern Euorpe as kind of vassal states, and a lot of its vassal states won't take those immigrants, but the economic whole needs them. That means a lot of Polish jobs in Germany become Turkish jobs, and a lot of Poles go home to a better Polish economy to complain about Turks taking their jobs, and get the same job back in Poland. From the German economic perspective on the eurozone, that's the same as a Saxon claiming a Bavarian stole their job in Berlin and so they had to move back to Saxony to work the same job which can now be found there too. The threat to that stability is their satellites abandoning them more than anyone western abandoning them, because that's their economic and geographic buffer zone of concern.

>Going by 1990 in Germany might be a bit misleading user.

i am merely pointing out a tendency. in fact one that persists in *all* developed nations, from germany over australia to japan - we have stagnating or even declining wages and job prospects, despite growing overall wealth. the culprit is, besides globalization, mostly automation. and mass migration will not make this better.

>They're hedging against that by treating central and eastern Euorpe as kind of vassal states, and a lot of its vassal states won't take those immigrants, but the economic whole needs them.

while your explanation of the possible macroeconomic motivation behind immigration acceptance in germany is sound, i still believe that the act of opening the borders in 2015 was simply a response to a crisis, not something planned and justified in advance.

what made me wonder, however, is why there is *cultural* acceptance of immigration in germany, whereas there is not in germany and the uk. the economy alone does not explain that, since most people lack the economic awareness necessary to even understand the impact of immigration.

Make a le random thing with no meaning

funny, because i'm currently working on super meta-gonzo slipstream naked lunch with computers and Abe Lincon nonsense executed with tact and post-ironic seriousness that i do my best to get quite right.

Il y a trop d'interférences dans le sillage. Slipping through these huge powers in the slipstream of a liberalisation measure is quite inappropriate. Il est tout à fait inopportun de glisser ces pouvoirs considérables dans le sillage d'une mesure de libéralisation. I haven't flown slipstream since the retrofit.

>Anarchism
>Unconventionality
>The bizarre
>Aesthetics gives way to shock
>Irony

I think the best description or work that can make you "feel" what post modernism is about is Borges'. If you know spanish, read the original ( tlon.unal.edu.co/files/tlon_texto.pdf ). The best post modernism approach is towards the arts, don't try to reduce life to a "postmodernism" deconstruction, because life and nature don't follow any logical (not counting on mathematical proofs) parameters,

>reads camus
>becomes even more of an edgy teenage fuck

who cares

I was making fun of retards who blame postmodernism for all the problems that are caused by 'uninhibited-corporate-throat-fuck-economics.'

oh I thought we were talking about it as a movement rather than a philosophy

Liquid modernity.

loss of identity and the disintegration of narrative

>I think post-modernism is related to an acceptance of skepticism in philosophy, and use of irony, surprise and oddity in humor...
>and use of irony, surprise and oddity in humor...
Dude fucking Socrates was already revelling in the deep end of irony. it's not exactly something new

>it's "progressive"
progress is a meta-narrative. most postmodern thinkers would have a grudge against it

People don't understand irony.

Modern irony is impossible to decipher, layered, self referring, and rooted in history. Historical irony was the juxtaposition of events or concepts for dramatic effect. All things bloom and all will wither, depends on the epoch.

Historical irony - particularly Socratic irony - could be as inscrutable and layered as contemporary irony. Schlegel talks about this on "On Incomprehensibility", I think

Something way less important than you would guess by browsing Veeky Forums every day
Why do we need these threads all the time?

so people like you can feel smug and superior by posting in them yet dismissing them at the same time