Welcome to the first installment of /clas/. Hopefully, this can become an enduring thing on Veeky Forums!
Possible ways of improving the thread: >Suggest any idea not related which may make /clas/ better >Suggest useful links to free sources/scholarship or good websites to learn classical language >Suggest useful links to free sources/scholarship or good websites to learn classical language >Suggest links to websites useful for learning Greek/Latin or to study classics >Learning Ancient Languages Charts >Greek and Roman Scholarship Charts
Colton Wilson
How was he so perfect, lads?
Jack Gomez
It includes more than just greek and roman works, but here's a pretty good classical reading list.
Okay. /clas/ I need your help: Where can I find the Greek text of Aristotles' "History of Animals"?
Brody Sanders
how is the Mythology by Edith Hamilton?
Joshua Davis
Lets make some charts. What order do you think Plato's dialogues should be read? what other reading do you think are useful for understanding him? Here's the current order i was thinking of:
Group 1: Virtue-Ethics Read in order: Euthyphro Apology Crito Phaedo Then read following in any order: Ion Laches Lysis Meno
Group 2: The Sophists Read in order: Lesser Hippias Greater Hippias Euthydemus Gorgias Protagoras
Group 3: Intermediate dialogues Read in any order: Cratylus Phaedrus Symposium Philebus
Group 4: Harder Dialogues Read in Order: Parmenides Theaetetus Sophist Statesman Republic
Group 5: Later Dialogues Read in order: Timaeus Critias Laws
Levi Rodriguez
What book/language course will help me achieve a reading knowledge of greek?
Julian Scott
I like Karoly Kerenyi The Gods of the Greeks and the Heroes of the Greeks more. It may be a bit longer, but I think they are good reads, well-informed and not too difficult.
Charles Gray
Thanks user, these links are great!! I have searched for the text a bit, but couldn't find anything on libgen and scihub. Apparently, there is no doi for the loebs... But it may pop up on libgen at a certain point. Otherwise, do you have access to the TLG or to the Loeb Library via some university resources?
Big fan of whats happening here, and I'm excited for the future of /clas/. I think that here we could recreate the two Greek Guides linked in OP that frequently circulate Veeky Forums. They recommend a lot of inferior translations, not particularly helpful scholarship and skip a lot of important texts such as Pindar and the Homeric Hymns.
A thread like this could certainly create a far superior chart to the ones currently circulating Veeky Forums and I would love to help contribute to that here.
Austin Edwards
No. I can't access.
Jason Gomez
Good disposition, I'd just change a couple of things:
Group 1: Virtue-Ethics Read in order: Euthyphro Apology Crito Phaedo Then read following in any order: Ion Laches Lysis Meno
Group 2: Intermediate Dialogues Read in order: Lesser Hippias Greater Hippias Euthydemus Protagoras Gorgias Read in any order: Cratylus Phaedrus Symposium
Group 4: Platonic Core Republic Timaeus
Group 5: Harder Dialogues Read in Order: Sophist Statesman Theaetetus Philebus Parmenides
Group 5: Later Dialogues Read in order: Critias Laws
I've moved the Philebus because it is among the later dialogues, and put the Republic and the Timaeus together in a separate group because the second starts when the first ends, and is meant to continue its discussion.
I was uncertain to move the Lysias together with Phaedrus and Symposium for a "love dialogues" group...
How about secondary literature? I am studying Plato in Italian, so I know mostly about Italian scholarship... What are good introductions in english? Is the Cambridge Companion series any good? Thomas Taylor Life and Writings of Plato?
Jayden Martinez
Shit.. I'll see if I can manage to download something, but the Loeb website is a bitch, they don't let you download PDFs, and I'd have to scan the whole thing. :/
William Nelson
Odyssey/Iliad/Divine Comedy Any of these still worth reading or do they feel somewhat outdated? t.Greek philosophy lover
Tyler Rivera
Great ideas! If you can, just try and do a revised version of the chart
Brandon Cook
dude learn Latin and Catullus will blow your mind
Cooper Watson
Sure. Divine Comedy is medieval literature, though. I don't know what you mean by "outdated", but being old texts, they'll require a little bit more of concentration and hard work to get through. They are great reads in my opinion, and can be very fun and rewarding!
Ethan Hernandez
Also OP could you add a link to this chart in the following OP's? It is very good and probably more helpful than those two more popular ones! Linked from: i.warosu.org/data/lit/img/0086/04/1476211635020.jpg
Carson Evans
OP here, it will be there in the next one!
Nathan Torres
Fantastic. Hopefully we can compile a better one as well! Some of the translations there aren't the best and there isn't a flowchart.
I couldn't have hold of Hamilton's mythology, so I've read the Graves one. Did I miss out on anything?
Plato's Phaedo; is there a more perfect book? This man made me have faith.
Ian Scott
Grave is also a good choice, I don't think you are missing on.
And, in my opinion, there is one book more perfect than the Phaedo: the Symposium! Beautiful language, perfect structure, philosophical depth and drunken Alcibiades - what could you ask more?
On all these aspects, the Phaedo is very close to it. I like to think about them as a couple on life and death - though they are much more than just that! From a literary aspect, they are among the most beautiful dialogues to read!
Ryder Bailey
Reading Euripides' plays currently. Right now I am in the middle of Iphigenia at Aulis. Which of his other plays are must-reads? I assume Bacchae and Medea are the obvious ones and I already read Hecuba.
Carson Peterson
I also very much like Helen, it's a different take on the character. There's this whole idea that she was just an eidolon in Troy which is very fascinating.
Also, Alcestis, for similar reason. According to one of my uni professors, there's a weird subtext going on there, when she comes back from afterlife, so that it seems she is either not herself or is some sort of ghost/copy/eidolon again. It was very creepy reading it that way.
Nathaniel White
Trojan women is most certainly worth your time.
Dominic Wood
It seems like such a weird concept to me to split some of these works up like that. Why would you start reading Aristotle's Ethics in Year 1, continue in Year 2 and then come back to it 5 years later in Year 7? Read the first part of Don Quixote in Year 5 and then 5 years later come back to finish the second part in Year 10? Plenty of examples like that. Also I am really unsure how much somebody would actually get out of reading old science books from Copernicus, Kepler, etc. Sure many of the things they did were revolutionary but surely they don't posses that much literary value and for actually learning about science you would be much better of to read a more recent book...
Samuel Ross
Thanks, any recommendations on alternative translations of particular dialogues?
I think that Republic is better read after the group 5 dialogues as there are parts in it which benefit from understanding some of the discussions in sophist+parmenides and theatetus. I've always seen Republic as a kind of omnibus of Plato's views, almost as his answer to many of the previous dialogues (especially the virtue-ethics dialogues). Placing Timaeus in a particular order with his other works is difficult as it's so different from all other dialogues, and it's importance (as far as i know) is really only related to Platonism and Gnosticism. I've heard the Cambridge companion is pretty bad for Plato, but i haven't read it myself.
Anthony Jones
> No mention of my taoist niggah Heracletus Fix this mistake please.
Luis Perez
...
Jaxon Jackson
Isn't this Veeky Forums?
Jeremiah Harris
Lurking for interest Please continue your work!
Levi Powell
The Gracchi did nothing wrong.
Leo James
The main problem I have with this is that it does not follow the chronology, and that the Republic has likely been written before all of them.
Moreover, what happens shortly after the Republic is that Plato seems to re-think a lot of theories of the dialogues of the maturity, so that the later dialogues are not only formally but also thematically different (and this may explain why Socrates is substituted by other "main characters" there).
The Statesman depicts a "second best" to the philosopher-king ideal - therefore you need to understand what a philosopher king is. The Sophist is usually read an evolution of the "standard" theory of Forms (assuming that there is something like a "standard" theory of Forms) which is still the one he's likely adopting in the Republic. The Parmenides has a similar problem: the first part is a critique of previously presented theses on the Forms which still seem to be used in the Republic. The Theaetetus is really its own thing, it seems to go back to the form of a Socratic dialogue and the political mission of the philosopher seem to be not that relevant ("the philosopher does not know the way to the agorà", says Socrates).
These are all dialogue which, in my opinion, require a reading of the Republic before being properly understood. The risk of reverting the chronological order and of reading, let's say, the Parmenides before the Republic, is that one risks to read Plato's dialogues as a system, and risks losing the differences between different stages of his intellectual developements and the refinement of some ideas (e.g. the One in the Parmenides is, in my opinion, an attempt to make a step beyond what has been said in the Republic about the Form of Good).
So, I'd stick to the chronology as much as possible.
Some changes are ok - e.g. putting the Phaedo among the firsts is good, even if it is likely a mature dialogue, because it serves as a good introduction to the "Platonic" Plato of the middle period as different from the "Socratic" Plato of the first dialogues.
Ian Ramirez
Have you ever come across a blatantly mistranslated edition of a Greek or Latin classic?
Hunter Cox
>a much turned man
John Cook
I've had a lot of difficulties with Plotinus' translations. But Parmenides' Publishing now is releasing good ones.
Ian Perry
By the gods, where did you find such abomination?
Ayden Flores
The first translation of the Odyssey by a woman. There was a lengthy discussion a couple of weeks back with some faggots trying to argue how it was correct while I took the position of the correct translation being "crafty" while keeping an eye out for the possible usage of a pun by Homer (or whoever).
Charles Allen
Fagles
Carson Sanders
Proof that Odysseus was black.
Brody Thomas
Why the fuck there's not Lucretius in the Roman charts guys
OP here, I also think the charts should be improved. I'm working on it, but in the meantime, if some user produces some good chart, I'll include it in the next /clas/ thread!
Kevin Sullivan
Is this the endgame of greco-roman history?
Nathan Johnson
how the fuck would you render polutropos? Not like it really works in English, now, does it?
Isaac Reed
That list was built by a mental retard who has ass burgers
Anyone of you newfags better not fall for this.
Tyler Phillips
Otherwise, if you want to study myths starting from a primary source, I really like Ovid's Metamorphoses. This is also an overview of almost all mythology, it is beautifully written (though a bit chaotic) - and possibly my favorite text about mythology by an ancient author.
Jonathan Lewis
These "Resume with the Romans" charts are hot garbage. Here's a real Romans reading list. "Mandatory" authors are starred, but all are worth spending some time with. Vaguely chronological order within genres.
Epic: Ennius - Annales (fragments) Lucretius - De Rerum Natura *Vergil - *Eclogues, *Georgics, **Aeneid *Ovid - **Metamorphoses Lucan - Pharsalia Statius - Thebaid Silius Italicus - Punica
Rhetoric: *Cicero - *In Catilinam 1 & 3, **Philippic 2, Pro Milone, Pro Caelio (if interested in theory as well: Rhetorica ad Herennium, Seneca the Elder's rhetoric handbook, Quintilian)
Historiography: *Caesar - Comentarii *Sallust - **Bellum Catilinae, Bellum Jugurthae Livy - as much as you want / until you get bored Res Gestae divi augusti *Tacitus - Agricola, Historiae, *Germania, **Annales Suetonius - 12 Caesars Ammianus Marcellinus - again, just what you want
And I don't care much about philosophy, but if I did, it would go here. If it would really help to make one of those dumb charts, I guess I could.
Chase Morgan
...
Xavier Morris
I would understand "clever," but "crafty" is a Greek epithet normally for women. Doesn't really fit in this case. Also, any dictionary in the world is going to point you to the fact that πολυτροπος means both someone turned-about a great deal (by his long journey home) and someone with many turns (i.e. clever or tricky).
"Much-turned" is about as close to the Greek as you can get without injecting bullshit into the translation (like "Crafty" would). You arguing that it's wrong is just politics, and you know it.
t. classics PhD
Jordan Gray
Good list tbqh >These "Resume with the Romans" charts are hot garbage Agreed
Nolan Parker
>You arguing that it's wrong is just politics, and you know it. Oh no man, no politics, but really translators should put a TN saying it has many different meanings. It is translated as crafty in a couple of translations in Modern Greek too. But what did you mean with "politcs"?
Juan Ross
I meant that post where you called people who (rightfully) defended much turned man "faggots" for supporting a woman's translation.
Maybe I'm just on edge because on /pol/'s prevalence here now. I'm just sick of seeing their bullshit
Jace Parker
If someone could make this into an actual chart, it would be great!
William Brown
thx mate
On second thought, Lucretius, Lucan, and Juvenal should be starred and Sallust should have 1 star, not 2
Colton Watson
>I meant that post where you called people who (rightfully) defended much turned man "faggots" for supporting a woman's translation. We are on Veeky Forums after all, how am I supossed to argue otherwise? I have talked to other Phd holders, the opinion seems to be divided. IMHO it's a pun that was meant to provoke such discussions.
Angel Thompson
fair
Tyler Martinez
Kazantzakis just straight up left it untranslated to give you an example.
Michael Powell
>and someone with many turns (i.e. clever or tricky).
much-turned doesn't get that meaning across tho, at least not as presented here, a single phrase plucked from the passage
a man of many turns would hit both
not a fan of crafty either, but of course it does deal the second meaning
Joshua Jackson
>modern academia phd >a flaming PC faggot like pottery
"a much turned man" is a shit translation that doesn't mean fucking anything in english
all the puns should be covered in notes and the introduction with tricky/crafty/clever/etc(based on how other similar words are translated) used when it comes up
and yes a woman's translation is innately inferior to a man's translation
Jace Rogers
>literally begging some guy to include him in his history
Ian Smith
SPQR /thread
Sebastian Thompson
>Start with Homer >End with some Plato and complete works of Aristotle This is the dumbest advice tbfqh desu. It completely depends on what people would like to learn. I'm a philosophy major, so it's not important for me to read Homer at all, and I haven't finished Odyssey all the time I've owned it since I was 16. There needs to be more Plato and other philosophers.
Brody Cox
I'm taking advantages of all secret friend parties i have been invited to ask for seneca, the tragedians, plato, aristotle, and ovid, as i plan to start in january the education that i was never given due to my upper middles class upbringing. Wish me luck, bros.
Levi Sullivan
>Phil major >Has never read Homer
Is your uni curriculum mediocre, or is it just you?
Noah Fisher
Modern philosophy doesn't care about the Greeks, let alone Homer - who has nearly no philosophical importance. Stop putting it out on a pedestal just because it's old. Why do people mix up philosophy with classics majors? They're the only ones who have to be reading Homer.
Parker Roberts
If the subject is Plato, a full understanding of Plato is not complete without Homer. And with that said about modern philosophy, why are you making this argument in a classical literature thread?
Zachary Lopez
>why are you making this argument in a classical literature thread? I'm telling you my uni curriculum doesn't teach Greeks because they're myopic when it comes to the Greeks. It's just too much to teach people anyway, but I want to do it. I'm going to teach myself Latin then Ancient Greek soon.
I'm saying there needs to be more phil because "Start with the Greeks" is a meme about getting into philosophy, yet the reading list had nearly no philosophy on it.
Camden Ward
Ehi, Anons over here are working on a Plato chart, - do you mind giving us a hand? :D
Samuel Ramirez
currently reading the Cambridge companion to Homer and half of it seems to go over my head, suppose that comes with the territory of being a brainlet I'm aware of how important reading secondary material is with the greeks but it does feel a little like I'm cheating myself, I don't want to end up just parroting the thoughts of others over such a work then again I probably wouldn't be able to achieve more than a surface level understanding of Homer just relying on my own mental capabilities
thanks for reading my blog
Noah Hill
>I don't want to end up just parroting the thoughts of others Do you go to university? The reason why they get you to do research essays is because it teaches you how to present conflicting interpretations and either agree with someone else, or synthesise a new one. It's probably impossible to "interpret" a piece of anything if you don't also find out what the discourse around it is, otherwise you can't contribute anything. I suggest that if you're an autodidact, you try to find stuff online and maybe ask someone with university access to give you the journal articles you want. If you go to uni, use your access. Either way, definitely try to find different interpretations and write an essay yourself. It's holidays now, so you can do it. Doesn't have to be long. Like 2000 words will do, and set yourself a question.
Logan Green
A philosophy undergrad program at any university is just 4 years of skimming over major philosophers and skimming over the less ones. I agree with you with the misinterpretation of "start with the greeks", those flowchart images in the OP are atrocious. "Start with the greeks" is the way I got into classical studies as a whole rather than only philosophy. I started with philosophy (and Homer), but I realized quickly that the scope of "the greeks" is much wider than philosophers. People should recognize this as well, they are only making themselves pharisees if they purposely strive for a superficial understanding of "the greeks".
For learning Latin/Greek I recommend reading Loeb Classical Library books since the text is printed in the Latin/Greek original and english translation. I learned the Greek alphabet that way pretty quickly.
I've read that piece, some of the essays are incredibly hit and miss (see: Gender and Homeric Epic), most are informational and intended on elaborating on Homer, his themes, his metre, language of the poem, etc etc. Reading Homer and then going into that Cambridge Companion seems jarring for a beginner that hasn't caught onto the nuances of Homer. I would recommend you instead Simone Weil's Poem of Force essay and Seth Benardete's Homeric Heroes essay, these essays will give you a direction when thinking about Homer. Then I highly recommend reading the Iliad and Odyssey again for a second time. Keep reading until you understand.
Camden Long
>Someone asks about Edith Hamilton >Doesn't answer about Edith Hamilton and talks about some other book.
Juan Cruz
I'm learning Latin right now and "reading" Tacitus and Plinius jr. Really I'm translating, but still.
Wyatt Wilson
Ok faggots It's time to settle it once and for all. What's better: latin or greek?
Brandon Brooks
Greek sounds like someone choking on seafood but Latin is too gay. "Maxima cum loud" lolol
William Ward
Yeah I'm an autodidact, fair points though thanks. I'll definitely consider the essay idea
I feel like I'm still getting some value from the companion but I suspect you're right that it's a bit advanced for me. I'll check those essays out thanks. I might read some of the dramatists and historians before I return to Homer just so I don't go crazy
Jackson Phillips
I like greek better, but it's mostly because of the sound.
Asher Brooks
>Plautus >Terence >Drama >Not Comedy
>Livy >non-asterisked Other than that. Not bad.
Carter James
You just called Mortimer Adler, the man who wrote that book, and helped compile Encyclopedia Britannica's Great Books and that list, a retard with aspergers.
Luke Johnson
The Ancient Historians by Michael Grant gives an excellent overview and selection from the classical historians. Highly recommended.
Oh, and read Tacitus, you plebs.
And Celsus too, christcucks.
Juan Ross
Assburgers' is pretty much a requirement for philology and compiling encyclopaedias, user, or didn't you get the memo?
Thomas Adams
I say Greek although I am a bit biased
Owen Robinson
Good.
Elijah Phillips
Hei, can someone tell me what is the best translation of Aristotle's Poetics? Is it the loeb?
Jackson Bennett
>mfw I thought I did well on my last Latin test >mfw I conjugated a verb in the present instead of the perfect
Cooper Wright
I was originally gonna include some fragmentary Roman tragedies but no one cares about them.
And I've never met anyone who enjoyed reading Livy in translation, so I don't star him.
Anthony Brown
Hello /clas/,
Assuming one wishes to learn both languages, what do you think is an easier direction:
Ancient Greek -> Modern Greek Modern Greek -> Ancient Greek
Jason Diaz
Livy gets bogged down by the repetition of books 1-10, primarily 1-6, with passages detailing the great men of Rome, such as Camillus, Corvus, Torquatus. Books 21-30 are the best of Livy as it describes the Hannibalic War. I enjoyed that work above all others. I read Oxford's translation, and read through that. If anything of Livy's history should be starred it is that and maybe to book 45, although I think his complete history is great (but books 1-10 could be supplemented with Plutarch's Lives).
Jordan Collins
Maybe modern to ancient... I've heard it is easier for Greeks to learn Ancient Greek than it is for others. But still, there is always the risk that it becomes confusing, and that you end up exchanging the grammar of one for the other. If you want to read ancient texts in the original Greek, I'd just go with Ancient Greek first, and then learn modern for fun (it is also supposedly easier, since you can talk to modern Greek spearkers)
Charles Lewis
>it is also supposedly easier It is. Has less grammar than ancient
Connor Jenkins
I have the Butler translations of the Homeric poems, are they fine or should I try to find a different translation? I mostly got it because it was both poems and a nice looking hardcover for my bookshelf
Jacob White
flowchart 1 >knwoing
flowchart 3 >senetor
Tyler Long
What about my boy Persius? Also I think Lucretius should definitely be starred >Aenadum genetrix...
Hudson Lopez
"much-turned man" is terrible but how about "man of tortuous way/path"?