Trad Catholic essential literature

t. murican

if you want a good book about how any trad catholic will give your dumb ass the same answer, brideshead revisited. pay attention to bridey.

at least you're not asking for secrets off an orthodox church, they don't even tell their catechumens the upper level shit.

sorry, m8, catholic european. swing and a miss.

>candy floss
>t. murican
Which Murica you living in, boy? The UK Murica?

Not sure why you act so butthurt, I thought spreading the good word was part of the whole deal instead of acting like I'm a parasite for wanting to hold a up the old ways. Kinda unproductive.

>brideshead revisited
Expain why I should read some Novel, user. Please don't waste and few spare shekels on memes.

>I thought spreading the good word was part of the whole deal
whoa careful there. you do not know anyone else's state of grace and proselytizing is generally considered protestant.

i'm saying your preconceptions about the religion are insulting within the religion, and basically equivalent to saying that traditionalists don't know how to religion themselves properly, which is why your prejudices should be trusted above hundreds of years of tradition. that's not going to fly.

and now you're going back on what you said and saying you want to try to uphold traditions, when you clearly don't. why are you lying when that is going to damn you? what you see as aggression is the standard method of expressing worry for your eternal soul within traditionalism. if you don't want to hear this kind of shit (or the kind of shit from bridey in brideshead) everyfucking day, you should not become traditionalist. there are many other routes to salvation, and if you go in on the traditionalist one, there is no way out that is not considered a breach of contract with god. do not sign the contract if you are not sure you can uphold it, because that is a worse sin than being unsure about wanting to sign.

you should read brideshead because it's about catholics, and illustrates how hard it is to live within just a family of traditionalists. it's also about how pride and guilt work and treating religion, like life, lightly will come to haunt you.

promoting traditionalism above the mainstream church can also get you placed outside the see, which excommunicates you from rome. that won't excommunicate you from all trad communities, as some of them are not in good standing, but those are more extremely aggressive with your kind.

>recommend books
>reeee you're not one of us, showing interest is insuting, reeee

user, just cease beeing autistic. I'm not interested in novels about catholics. I am interested in actual books by the church before VCII like listed above.

>promoting traditionalism above the mainstream church
Jokes on you, I would probably consider myself a sedevacantist by what I know atm, and as you said, you can't be excommunicated if you never had communion. Thanks for the bump.

>candy floss
>American
no

>i want to make up a religion using source material from the catholic church before the 1970s
why didn't you say you were /sffg/?

i'll do you one better, Great Moments in Catholic History by Rev Edward Lodge Curran Phd., published 1938 (new york). It's a children's reader of 100 moments in the Church's history, including why Mohammad and Gommunism is bad mmkay?

should make your costume super neat, because it's even illustrated :3

>tfw you realie it's not floss for teeth made out of sugar
Oh, well at least you understand why I thought he's american.

That would be the most useless product ever developed.

>placing words in my mouth
Enjoy yourself user, it's nice to give joy to people in need o a little light in their life. If beeing a bitter vagina is your way of doing so, don't let reality crash it.

Hmm

Quite fiiting for the mongrelized nation, don't you think?

>Enjoy yourself user, it's nice to give joy to people in need o a little light in their life.
by doing
i've already given you two books and some good advice, i'm worried to pile more coals of fire on your head tbph. [proverbs 25; romans 12] you look like you're on a search for majesty, user, be careful with that haughty spirit.

>I thought spreading the good word was part of the whole deal instead of acting like I'm a parasite for wanting to hold a up the old ways.

Most traditional latins are great people, but it does attract some real spergs. Become Orthodox, though.

>Become Orthodox, though.
how do you think he's going to react when they tell the catechumens to get out or read john of the ladder for the millionth time during lent?

>a novel
>a picture book

>beeing surprised about not beeing taken serious after screetching through the whole thread because you missed the point
>quotting the bible after behaving like a arogant self-rightious gift to the humankind
SAD. Many such cases. At least you have something to repent next time.

Jean Meslier's Testament

My college is orthodox. Sounds comfy desu. It's just not what my grandarents tried to teach me before they left too. If it would not be for tradcats I would robably at least consider it in the long run.

>a picture book has no religious worth
it's like you've never heard of the lives of saints. if you're going to shit on iconography, you're going to have a hard time being ecumenical man.

>SAD. Many such cases. At least you have something to repent next time.
>doesn't want scriptural citation
>wants to be trad catholic
so you want to be a traditional catholic without being a traditional catholic? interesting. btw, if you looked at those chapters before deciding i was judging you, you might have seen they're prescriptions against that. both vengeance and majesty are god's alone, and unknown to us.

>Jean Meslier's Testament
Nice try, plebbit.

Justify not being a Protestant without using the following excuses:

1. Traditions, even traditions that superseded older traditions, are more important than theological justification
2. B-but what about X Church!

I guarantee everyone here are just LARPers and would never call themselves Catholics if it required any real commitment

I'm not trying to, user. I can't be a tradcat, I'm to far gone. I just want to read about the faith of my dead family ffs. Suck up your hollier than thou attitude and just leave.

believing in the apostolic succession of the church gets all kinds of catholics/coptics (including orthodox, african and eastern churches) off the hook. it doesn't even have to be the same line, they all have records.

Was this your experience?
I can understand the conflict there. Definitely check out a few Orthodox services. The Divine Liturgy of course, but also a small Paraklesis, which many hold every Wednesday. It's a beautiful prayer to the Theotokos.

Muslim tier, and what stops any man from claiming to be an apostolic succeeder?

Dark Night of the Soul by Saint John of the Cross.

Peers translation for english is pretty good.

Jesus seemed to think it wasn't a symbol. He let thousands of people leave Him because He keep reinforcing that we must eat His flesh and drink His blood. See John 6

seriously read that book. it and lives of saints are the exact kind of things that trad catholic grandparents give to their grandkids, and kids, as gifts.
brideshead revisited is not a happy book, but it's very accurate on the social dynamic of traditional catholics. for people who grew up with that kind of religion, it's like home.
your i'm too good to take any recommendations or advice from trad catholics shit isn't exactly respectful to any of them.

and it's good that you realise you're too far gone. everyone should realise this. while works count, and many trad catholics will judge the quality of your works to help you get closer in line out of fear you might burn for all eternity like we all deserve to, you have to keep in mind that all catholics are supposed to believe we are saved by grace of god.
god's grace might not fall on us even if we live well, which is why saints are contested and rare and need to preform miracles as a sign of god's grace, because we don't know it's been conferred otherwise. god could grace a murderer or a thief before someone who always went to mass and always fasted and always was kind and performed all works well, and that is his prerogative. becoming a trad catholic would just give you more ways to fuck up your works, and probably involve a turning from grace.

unless you really feel god's calling you, i'd stick away, because you would be asking him to hold you to a much higher standard.

>Was this your experience?
No, it's just shit the Orthodox I know from an ecumenical forum talk about.
>Muslim tier, and what stops any man from claiming to be an apostolic succeeder?
archaeologists and carbon dating. catholics came up with the idea of a devil's advocate because they spend a lot of their time disproving spooky shit someone once said.

>archaeologists and carbon dating.

You're completely missing my point. Lets say Peter did establish the Roman Church, what is to prevent me to claim I am the current day succeeder of that Church? Or that any Christian can be?
Its not as if Popes even choose their own successors, its totally arbitrary and mere opinion

He never said it was a literal expression. Are we to take it that Jesus was literally a lamb too?

>You're completely missing my point. Lets say Peter did establish the Roman Church, what is to prevent me to claim I am the current day succeeder of that Church? Or that any Christian can be?
Which Cardinal are you and how many of the others did you pay or sire?

Is there mention of Cardinals in the Bible now?

>Are we to take it that Jesus was literally a lamb too?
Well St John the Eagle probably wouldn't have eaten bread. I think that it's mostly ducks like bread, and you're not supposed to feed it to them because it's bad for them even though they like it.
Next you'll be saying the language of birds is not really important.

no, but since it's now later than the synod of 769, that's the only way to qualify into the succession. if the current succession changes the qualifications again you could get lucky.

>but since it's now later than the synod of 769

Right sorry, I thought you had a serious argument not just LARPing

Your god isn't real, same as any other god

>LARPing
watm8? the pope as bishop of rome doesn't exist really until the 4th C. there are other popes and means of succession, and they get validated at different points by different successions, and sometimes validate other denominations as well. rome recognised byzantium for a long time and all the churches various popes recognise some of the other successions to this day. that's what ecumenicism works from.
if you can get your claim validated by one, you can get in on that, but to get in on the roman one currently, you need to become cardinal and sway the rest.

>user is actually interested in TradCat books
>Autistic TradCats tells him to fuck off
This is why your clique will never be in control

Isn't the guy asking for books telling the guy giving book titles to fuck off? Is it samefag posting titles and then responding to himself saying I don't want that? LEL Veeky Forumss got great spergers

>I'm a new convert mostly interested in politics, but I already have steadfast views on Vatican II even though I haven't read my catechism.

Will this meme please die?

>The Pope and his buddies are in charge because the Pope and his buddies said so, lol irrefutable logic

No wonder most of your church are niggers now

>the synod of 769 changed nothing and cardinals were always choosing popes
>succession is constancy
wat? have a re-read.

I have read the current one and am against the changed in VII simply because of modernism and the results it has on the public. The decline in attendance in the catholic church, or monastries show a clear line. People want a strict authority not a social worker giving out rubby bubble and rice crispies on high mass dancing to zumba before the post-modern interpretation of the crucifix.

It's not rocket science.

I was asking you as a Christian for a Biblical justification for conferring hermeneutic authority to an arbitrary cartel and your response is to refer to one of the cartels interior meetings. It would be a joke if I knew you weren't just a ironic cynic with no authentic interest in faith

Are you saying you'd go to Mass more often if there were a stricter congregation nearby? I'm not seeing the logic here.

Yes. And this is also why more and more people find tradcats after beeing raised in the modern way.

I think they're trying to compensate for being new and insincere by being (what they think is) super duper Catholic as possible
>Doesn't know anything about Bible translations or what Vatican II says about them but has steadfast views on usingonly Douay-Rheims

Too bad the Catholic Church is a lethargic institution which doesn't respond to change against the interests of its aged and complacent leadership

>I was asking you as a Christian for a Biblical justification
When God came down as the Holy Spirit and conferred his apostles with succession. After that generation, many succession were handed down, which are not recorded in the Bible. They don't tag on every new part of the succession to that. Asking for Biblical evidence which stops before the succession even morphs into a Bishop of Rome is going to make it very hard for you to become one, and harder to be recognised by any other Church, since Ethiopia won't have record of you being around back then either.
You're coming at this from a very literalist Protestant view, and that's only really developed in the past century or so. It doesn't really hold much sway over the longer documented history of how any of these successions work, or, really, any history outside of some new religious compounds I'd imagine...

>People want a strict authority not a social worker giving out rubby bubble and rice crispies on high mass dancing to zumba before the post-modern interpretation of the crucifix.
You sound legitimately insane. Have you even been to a Novus Ordo mass?

Yes. Multiple times.

And so I say again, who is not to say all authentic believers are not a apostolic succeeders? Why have any sort of limit or trust any particular "line" if it is as you admit totally in the air regardless.
You'll find the Church of community is far, far from a 20th century concept

I don't think OP really found Trad Catholics. He seems annoyed to be judged harshly for not acting like one, and apparently that's a big part of being strict. It doesn't seem like you or him actually want submission to a higher power/strict regime. Or like says, maybe overcompensating. Most Catholics seem to think being Catholic is not a pleasant experience. I have doubts you would show up more often if they gave a longer Mass in a dead language and judged you harshly. I don't think most people would find that offer appealing.

>And so I say again, who is not to say all authentic believers are not a apostolic succeeders?
>can't I just ignore recorded history for 1700 years
You can, I'm just saying getting everyone else to ignore it is the tricky bit.

>I'm just saying getting everyone else to ignore it is the tricky bit.

I don't know about where you live but in my country what was once a dominantly and ethusiastic Catholic state is now seeing rapidly dwindling congregations and struggling to recruit Priests without importing them from third world countries. It doesn't seem to me like people are exactly as convinced in Papal legitimacy as you pretend.

Well, most people don't like what is best for them. Which is why most of use shitpost on the four chinks instead of working out or doing a good deed in RL. Learning latin is also not that hard, especially as every Missae has a local language conter page.

It's also not just about lookig for the most strict definintion, but mostly about going with what seems to be the right path. And that doesn't need to be the comfiest one. I for one don't really care for what some of them screetch about on here, most of them have their own burden to carry and use it to get omething off their chest.

I'm not buying your Papal legitimacy and I even believe the Roman Pope has probably been shown Veeky Forums. You're not selling it. Maybe try selling it to the Christians, see what happens and if you get more or less Protestant followers and if any other Pope recognises your claim?

You're totally mistaking my argument. I'm not claiming I personally am the Pope, I'm saying we all succeed the apostles, we all carry the Church they established.
I'm an evangelical and you'll find there is no shortage of people finding our claim convincing

Learning the Latin Rite is harder and longer than learning the vernacular, I'd imagine. I'm still not getting the logic of "I'll do X+25 amount of work, but X amount of work I won't do". It's like people who say "Oh no, don't start me on 50lb, I'm stronk, start me at 500lb", when it looks like they might need a spot at 50.

Oh right, someone without succession from those who were touched by the Holy Spirit in the Bible. I always wondered, how do you get around Judas not being an apostolic successor?

>I always wondered, how do you get around Judas not being an apostolic successor?

I don't follow, but he killed himself before the pentacost regardless

Jesus was born in Bethlehem; this translates to House of Bread. He was placed in a manger; a manger is where animals eat and the word comes from french word, manger- to eat. When discussing the fathers eating of manna and eating His flesh (Jn. 6 49-50), in the earliest Greek manuscripts, Jesus uses "phago" to describe the eating of manna and He uses "trogo" to describe the eating of His flesh. "phago" translates to "eat" like at a table and "trogo" translates to "gnaw" or "chew" in animalistic way.

Jesus tells the masses to eat His flesh and drink His blood, the bread of life, 8 times, with no qualifying of His statement, no "it's just a metaphor guys!!"

In John 6:

>50. This is the bread[says I am the bread of life] which cometh down from heaven; that if any man eat of it, he may not die.

>52. If any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever; and the bread that I will give, is my flesh, for the life of the world.

>54. Then Jesus said to them: Amen, amen I say unto you: Except you eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, you shall not have life in you.

>55. He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath everlasting life: and I will raise him up in the last day.

>56. For my flesh is meat indeed: and my blood is drink indeed.

>57. He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, abideth in me, and I in him.

>58. As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father; so he that eateth me, the same also shall live by me.

>59. This is the bread that came down from heaven. Not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead. He that eateth this bread, shall live for ever.

Then literally five thousand people leave because Jesus wouldn't budge on this teaching. People weren't assuming He was being metaphorical. If they did, why would they leave? Jesus persisted in telling them to eat His flesh and drink His blood and pushes the teaching further with more force.

He even goes to the twelve to ask if they want to leave Him too.

So yeah, Jesus was totally being metaphorical about us eating His flesh and drinking His blood, huh? No.

Jesus couldn't be any clearer. It's not a metaphor like "Lamb of God" or "I am the gate". Jesus NEVER qualified His teachings on this to the point of letting thousands of people leave and even expecting the twelve to leave too.

>Jesus tells the masses to eat His flesh and drink His blood, the bread of life, 8 times, with no qualifying of His statement, no "it's just a metaphor guys!!"

Well they didn't fuck eat him there and then either did they

I'm wondering how, if apostles in the Bible talking is the basis of everyone else becoming a Christian, how you view Judas within that tradition? I know Catholics are meant to be afraid to pray to the similarly named St Jude (Thaddeus), because they think they might invoke Jude (Iscariot). Is it a justification of suicide if you realise your trangressions, or what? There's so many way that could go if you're relying on the Bible as your only source. I think the Catholic superstition is from tradition since it's not in the Bible.

>Well they didn't fuck eat him there and then either did they
Holy shit, I just thought about how his body goes missing for a few days after burial.

My own view is that Judas deserves our forgiveness and treating him like a despicable pariah goes directly against how Jesus himself treated him

See transubstantiation. The presence of Jesus's Body and Blood is in the Bread and Wine. When transubstantiated, the host literally becomes the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ. It may not be physical, but it is literal.

Think of a Man who's married and his wife had just given birth. He became a father. His physical appearance or any piece of his physical matter did not change, yet he is a completely different man now.

Get that analogy and multiply its magnitude by infinity to approach what happens in transubstantiation.

We ought to pray for him; we do not know whether he is in heaven, hell, or purgatory. Let us pray he is heaven

I assume you don't use the story from Origen about Peter being crucified upside down and asking to be treated like a pariah, and works attributed to Peter to be apocryphal? That might be why some of the traditional succession isn't clear to you, because that is accepted in the Roman Catholic tradition of succession, but not in the Orthodox, since they chose to follow more than the books in the Bible.

Does evangelicalism ever discuss the formulation of the Bible, or does it just start at KJV for relevant history?

Look whatever dude. In the end of the day though all this comes down to is Catholics need just one silly ritual to be a hardcoded magic to support their entire circus. You don't believe for a second that the bread is actually flesh and you damn well know it.

Evangelicals don't use the KJV as standard. The general attitude is you are free to use your own sensibility in deciding which translation is most reflective of the spirit. The NIV tends to be most popular

>There's only one bit of magic in Catholicism
There's lots of magic to be fair, bro. Magical necklaces, magical dead people, magical wellsprings, magical hats, magical bits of dead people. It's not like bread turning into Jesus's body is the strangest magical shit going on there.

>The general attitude is you are free to use your own sensibility in deciding which translation is most reflective of the spirit.
That hurt the parts of me that agree with Veeky Forums.

True, but those others aren't directly Biblically justified. The Communion is the only regular practice which the Church claims has a mystical quality

Top tier arguments here Veeky Forums. Disregard completely. And I do believe the Eucharist is literally the flesh, blood, soul, and divinity of Jesus Christ. There's nothing like it. I pray you might come home to the Church bud. But hey, if you are a Christian (I assume you are because of this doctrinal argument) I'm glad we're brothers in Christ in so many other aspects. :-)

I urge you to look at this as well:

therealpresence.org/eucharst/mir/lanciano.html

a eucharistic miracle with scientific evidence of the anomaly.

Bible isn't the only authority.

sola scriptura is flawed

No, the rosary, the Pope's hat, Lourdes, and saint's relics and miracles are all better indicators of Catholicism. Those necklaces to however many saints for whichever purpose, and that kind of magic is all the stuff that happens every day of the week.

As an evangelical I would agree, but once you cross that line the authority of the Church becomes totally obliterated in face of what becomes a community of spirit.

sorry, which line?

and what do you mean by the Church(RCC?) becoming
>totally obliterated in face of what becomes a community of spirit.

...

That's onestly the most blaspheme/holy thing I've ever heard about Jesus

Way to go user

He did say they should eat him. Maybe it's the last kosher supper before, you know.

The collapse of all contingent authority in exchange for all worshippers having placed on them their own personal relationship to God in which the Church becomes simply the community of individuals in the one spirit

Not him but are you arguing that the "church" needed to exist only as long as it prepared the Bible, afterwards the Bible itself , through faith, establishes a decentralized spiritual community?

The solution to this is to read basic pro-VII Catholic stuff (Kreeft, Ratzinger, etc.) and classics that aren't considered solely trad (so read Aqunias but not various early 20th century NeoThomists). No reason why one can't go to a Latin Mass if they prefer it but stick to reading list that isn't specifically trad. Chesteron and Belloc are well liked beyond the trad-sphere as well. Don't want to be like someone who just learned what baseball is and immediately has a strong opinion on the DH and the Curt Flood case.

That's exactly it. I take a lot of influence from Hegel's writings on Christianity here

No, that happened because Protestants exist.