Chan/Zen thread

Welcome to the Veeky Forums official discussion thread on Chan or Zen! Here we study the Chan lineage and post quotes relating to the masters!

A monk asked master Shuilu, “What should a student apply his mind to?”

Shuilu said, “To apply the mind is to miss.”

The monk said, “How is it when not arousing a single thought?”

Shuilu said, “A useless fellow.”

The monk said, “How is this thing preserved?”

Shuilu said, “Beware.”

The monk asked, “When meeting on a narrow road, what then?”

Shuilu grabbed him by the chest and gave him a shove.

Lost in translation/10

Five tons of flax.

“If the right man preaches the wrong way,” said Joshu, “the way will follow the man and become right. If the wrong man preaches the right way, the way will follow the man and become wrong.”

- Zhaozhou Congshen, Radical Zen - The Sayings of Joshu

If one clings to "original purity, fundamental liberation" and considers himself a Buddha, considers his own self to be Ch'an and the Way, then he belongs to the naturalist outsiders. If one clings to causality, the perfection of practice and attainment of realization, then he belongs to the outsiders with the notion of eternity; if you cling to nonexistence, you belong to outsiders with the notion of annihilation. If you cling to both existence and nonexistence, then you belong to outsiders with extreme views. If you cling to neither existence nor nonexistence, then you belong to outsiders with a notion of emptiness.

You ignorant, stupid outsiders, right now just do not create any views of Buddha or views of nirvana; when you have no views at all of existence, nonexistence, or whatever, and yet do not lack vision, this is called true vision. To have no hearing at all, yet not to lack hearing, is called true hearing. This is called smashing down outside ways. No bedevilments of the two vehicles befall – this is the “greatest enlightening charm.” None of the bedevilment of bodhisattvas befalls- this is the “unexcelled charm.” None of the bedevilment of Buddhas befalls- this is the “peerless charm”.

- Baizhang Huaihuai

I think he is wrong to imply nothing should be clung to in the sense of having a world view.

A Buddha will not care about another Buddhas enlightenment. For he has his own way.

You come here looking for sayings and talks, novel expressions and elegant lines, uselessly taking to verbalization. I am old and my energy is not up to par; I'm a dull speaker and I have no idle talk for you. If you ask me questions, I answer in accord with your questions, but I have no mysterious marvel that can be conveyed to you, and I won't have you get fixated.

I never assert the existence of Buddha and Dharma, of ordinary person and sage, either in the beyond or the here and now; I have no intention of sitting here tying you people down. You got through a thousand changes, but all of it is you people conceiving interpretations, carrying them with you, experiencing the results of your own doings. I have nothing here for you, and nothing exoteric or esoteric to explain to you, no appearance or intention to represent to you.

- T'ou tzu

One day Nanquan was working in the mountains. A monk passed and asked Nanquan, "Where does Nanquan's Way lead to?"

Nanquan lifted up his bamboo sickle and said, "I bought this for three bucks!"

The monk said, "I'm not interested in your ickle that cost you three bucks, I'm asking you about where Nanquan's Way goes to."

Nanquan said, "I have used it with pleasure and profit."

Shen-shan said to the Master, "There is nowhere that a friend would be unwilling to go for the sake of friendship. Could you express the essential point of this in a few words?"

"Uncle, with such an idea how could you ever succeed!" replied the Master.

As a result of the Master saying this, Shen-shan was suddenly awakened, and from then on his manner of speaking became unusual. Later, when they were crossing a log bridging a stream, the Master preceded Shen-shan across, picked up the log, and said, "Come on over."

"[Teacher]!" called Shen-shan.

The Master threw down the log.

Ninety years ago, I saw more than eighty teachers from the school of the great master Mazu. Each of them was an adept, unlike the teachers today who produce branches and tendrils upon branches and tendrils. The generality of them are far from sagehood, and each generation is worse than the last.

How about Nanquan's usual saying that we should act in the midst of different kinds? How do you understand this? Nowadays yellow-mouthed punks give complicated talks at crossroads in exchange for food to eat, seeking obeisance, gathering crowds of three to five hundred, saying, "I am the teacher, you are the student."

- Zhaozhou Congshen

Teach me,
How to build, how to purge?

Why does Veeky Forums keep ignoring this?

what?

I do not ignore, for I am ignored
I have nothing to contribute to this thread, since I am not wise

I hardly understand any of these, except possibly the third one. I don't know much about Chan/Zen in particular.

When Nanquan was about to pass away, the head monk asked, "After you die, where will you go?" Nanquan said, "Down the mountain, to be a water buffalo." The monk said, "Can I follow you?" Nanquan said, "If you follow me, you must come with a blade of grass in your mouth."

.

One day Nanquan saw the bath steward heating the bath and said, "After lunch, invite the water buffalo to bathe." The bath steward went and invited him; Nanquan said, "Did you bring a rope?" Zhaozhou pulled Nanquan's nose with his hand. Nanquan said, "Right, but too rough." Zhaozhou asked, "Where does one who knows it is go?" Nanquan said, "To the house of a patron in front of the mountain, to be a water buffalo." Zhaozhou said, "Thanks for your directions." Nanquan said, "Last night in the third watch the moon came to the window."

.

Nanquan, up in the hall, said, "Since youth I have brought up a water buffalo: when I was herding it east of the valley, I didn't let it eat the water plants of that country; when I was herding it west of the valley, I didn't let it eat the water plants of that country. Now it takes in a little bit anywhere possible, without being seen at all."

In Dharma Master Feishan's Preceptual Jewels he discussed the teaching of the special transmission of mind and criticized Nanquan, saying, "Someone like Nanquan never devoted himself to study, and didn't know the fundamental--he is not worthy to speak of the teachings of the Buddha."

Going by the collection appended to the Inexhaustible Lamp, it is plainly stated that Nanquan first learned the Vinaya, rules of monastic conduct, next he heard the Flower Ornament and Entry into Lanka scriptures expounded, and entered into the contemplation of the middle way and the Hundred Gates. Hearing that Mazu was transmitting the path outside of words, he repeatedly sought his essential meaning, then suddenly managed to 'forget the trap.'

One day as Nanquan was serving gruel, Mazu asked, "What is in the bucket?" Nanquan said, "Shut up, old man, if you're going to talk like this." Like this, Nanquan didn't defer to Mazu in facing the situation; later on he paid back his debt in the hands of Zhaozhou.

Nanquan asked a lecturer, "What is the ultimate principle of the Nirvana Scripture?" The lecturer said, "Thusness is the ultimate principle." Nanquan said, "As soon as you call it 'thus,' it has already changed. Monks in the present time should act in the midst of different kinds."

Zhaozhou, in front of the monks' hall, asked, "I don't ask about 'different'--what about 'kind'?" Nanquan pushed on the ground with both hands; Zhaozhou kicked him, and Nanquan immediately fell over on the ground. Zhaozhou ran into the life-prolonging hall (infirmary) shouting, "Sorry! Sorry!" Nanquan had an attendant ask Zhaozhou, "Sorry about what?" Zhaozhou said, "Sorry I didn't kick him again."

A monk asked Caoshan, “Can the eyebrows and the eyes distinguish each other or not?”

Caoshan said, “They can’t distinguish each other.”

The monk said “Why not?”

Caoshan said, “Because they’re in the same place.”

The monk said, “If that’s so, one couldn’t tell them apart.”

Caoshan said, “Eyebrows, after all, are not eyes.”

The monk asked, “What are eyes?”

Caoshan said, “[Eyes are] what is upright.”

The monk said, “What are eyebrows?”

Caoshan said, “I’m not sure.”

The monk said, “Why is the master not sure?”

Caoshan said, “If one lacks doubt, one is upright.”

The monk said, “What truth is there in form?”

Caoshan said, “Form is truth.”

The monk said, “How would you demonstrate this?”

Caoshan picked up his tea cup saucer.

The monk asked, “How can illusion be truth?”

Caoshan said, “Illusion is fundamentally truth.” ([Later,] Fayan commented, “Illusion is fundamentally not truth.”)

The monk asked, “When illusion is faced, what is revealed?”

Caoshan said, “Illusion is revealed.” (Fayan said, “Illusion is not faced.”)

The monk said, “In that case, then from start to finish one can’t escape illusion.”

Caoshan said, “But if you pursue illusive forms you can’t attain them.”

Every discussion around Zen on the internet turns into retards LARPing as zen masters and speaking in riddles in order to appear cool. It's best to take Huang-po's advice on this one.
>As soon as the mouth is opened, evils spring forth. Indeed, there is NEVER any profit in discussion

Chan master Guoyi of Jingshan was summoned to court and honored by Emperor Daizong of the Tang dynasty.

One day the master, in the inner courtyard, saw the emperor and stood up.

The emperor said,

“Why do you get up?”

He said,

“Patron, how can you see me within walking, standing, sitting or lying down?”

Dahui said,

“Yet how can you see Guoyi except within walking, standing, sitting, and lying down?

Zen Masters used to strike those who were speaking and also who were silent.

Might not be much related, but I like to read Basho, Dogen, Issa (while not the same I know), to get into a more relaxed state. Even though some of their writings are weird, they give me a picture of utter harmony, in just a few, well chosen words. English translations are quite fine as well.

Ungraciously, under
a great soldier's empty helmet,
a cricket sings

Cold as it was
We felt secure sleeping together
In the same room.

-Basho

Asked how old he was,
the boy in the new kimono
stretched out all five fingers.

Even with insects--
some can sing,
some can't.

Under the image of Buddha
all these spring flowers
seem a little tiresome.

-Issa

Have you read Ewk's 'Not Zen'?

A monk asked Wuzu Fayan, “What was the meaning of Bodhidharma’s facing the wall?”

Wuzu said, “It still hasn’t been calculated.”

The monk asked, “What about when the Second Ancestor stood in the snow?”

Wuzu said, “An error is an error.”

.

A monk asked Zen master Wuzu Fayan, “What is one drop of Baiyun?”

Fayan said, “Pounding. Grinding.”

The monk asked, “How about those who drink it?”

Fayan said, “I teach of a place where no face appears.”

.

Wuzu addressed the monks, saying, “Yesterday when I went into town I noticed a puppet show going on. I couldn’t help going over there and taking a look. The puppet was really something to see! At first sight it seemed to move its limbs, walk around, and sit down all on its own. But when you looked closer, you could see that there was someone behind the blue curtain.

“I couldn’t help but call out, ‘Sir! What’s your name?’

“The man replied to me, ‘Honored Priest! Just watch the show. Why ask for names?’

“Brethren! When I heard him say this, I didn’t have a single word to say in reply, nor a single idea to espouse. Can any of you say anything in my place? Yesterday, that single instance of embarrassment has uprooted all my ideas now.”

I do not larp for I am but a student

A monk asked, "How does it feel to practice an unevolved form of pessimism?"

Shuilu replied, "Like a slave."

The monk smiled and said, "But why go on?"

Shuilu replied, "I am a chink. It's part of my nature."

Bodidharma came from the West and just pointed to the human mind, to show its nature and enlighten it. That was undeniably direct and economical, but when seen with the absolute eye, it is already mixed up. There is no choice for not but to make some medicine for a dead horse.

This mijnd that is simply pointed to is precisely what the Buddha could not express in forty-nine years of lectures and talks. It is extremely rarefied, extremely subtle; few are able to find the true pulse.

This mind cannot be transmitted but can only be experienced in oneself and understood in oneself. When you get to the point where there is neither delusion nor enlightenment, you simply dress and eat as normal, without a bunch of arcane interpretations and lines of doctrine jamming in your chest, so you're clear and uncluttered.

- Ying-An

Try /pol/ for unevolved pessimism

First of all, do not predefine understanding, and do not make a principle of nonunderstaning.

- Ying-An

A monk asked Zhaozhou, "The myriad things return to one. Where does the one return to?"

Yet Zhaozhou answered him saying, "When I was in Ch'ing Chou I made a cloth shirt; it weighed seven pounds."

If you go to the words to discriminate you are mistakenly abiding by the zero point of a scale. If you don't go to the words to discriminate, what can you do about it that he did nevertheless speak this way?

This case, though hard to see, is nevertheless easy to understand; though easy to understand, it's still hard to see. Insofar as it's hard, it's a silver mountain, an iron wall. Insofar as it's easy, you are directly aware. There's no place for your calculations of right and wrong.

This story is the same kind as the story of Puhua [Fuke] saying, "Tomorrow there's a feast at the Temple of Great Compassion."

One day a monk asked Zhaozhou, "What is the meaning of the Patriarch coming from the West? "

Zhaozhou said, "The cypress tree in the garden."

The monk said, "Don't use objects to teach people with, Teacher."

Zhaozhou said, "I've never used objects to teach people."

Observe how, at the ultimate point, where it is impossible to turn, he does turn, and spontaneously covers heaven and earth. If you can't turn, wherever you set foot on the road you get stuck.

But say, did Zhaozhou ever have discussions of Buddhist doctrine or not? If you say he did, when has he ever spoken of mind or of nature, of mysteries or of marvels? If you say he didn't have the source meaning of the Buddhist Teaching, when has he ever turned his back on anyone's question?

If my nature is non-self, does that mean my nature is self also? If non-self contains all that is not self, and the self is illusive, does that not make it non-self?

bump

This douche is retarded and the idea is retarded because he's calling his own idea retarded and that's not wise even though I know that's what these Asian autists are going for. It's just retarded.

not self means that when you experience ''mine'' or ''me'' or ''I'' you are misguided and this experience is what makes you unhappy. Do not you the word ''self'' do describe this misguided experience, always use ''I, me , mine''

Do you study Zen at all?

bump

A "pagan" asked Buddha, "With words, with silence, will you tell me (the Way)?" Buddha silently kept meditating. The "pagan" bowed and thanked the Buddha, saying, "With the compassion you have cleared away the clouds of my mind and have made me enter into the awakening." After he left, Ananda asked the Buddha what he had attained. The Buddha said, "A good horse runs even a shadow of the whip."