Is he controlled opposition?

Is he controlled opposition?

Yes.
God knew what he was going to do and allowed it and allowed man to commit original sin as well.

I know you were in that thread, I was too, and it made me think, someone should create a chart with all the possible qualities of God, Satan, humans, etc. The chart should begin with God and split into reasonable descriptions. For example, God can be omniscient but it's also possible he's not. He can be perfectly good/bad, imperfectly good/bad, the creator of the angels/gods, or a creation along with the others while assuming power over them. Satan could have free will or not. If he does, and he's powerful, he could be evil or good. Or, he could be limited in knowledge and just dumb. Or, Satan doesn't exist at all. Obviously, all this should be better organized into a clean flow chart. Who wants to try making one?

I mean God by definition controls everything so I guess yeah

I could work on one if you give me an example of what you're saying would look like.

>Who wants to try making one?
this sounds interesting. make it.

I find that idea interesting, but dont have the resources (or skill heuheu) to make one

I'm not sure the best way to make it. Since every branch off the path offers a different perspective, it wouldn't be fun to have to manually group every characteristic back together as you're looking at the chart, so a simple tree-like flow chart won't work. Maybe rows and columns or something, but it would be a big chart

Then we get into what is good and bad. How would you judge that.

From our perspective, goodness means benefiting us. If Satan has intentions of harming us, he is bad. If he thinks he is trying to help us, then he is either good or dumb. Everyone makes these judgments already, but not all possibilities are considered. It won't reveal the truth, but it would be fun to analyze every possibility.

"Benefit" is a vague question. The fall from Eden lead us to death and suffering but at the same time uplifted us to a state of knowledge from a mere animal existence. Probably not worth it but you can see there is more than one form of benefit

>Satan could have free will or not
I think that depends on the prophesy which is briefly mentioned a few times in PL.

Right. Some praise the Biblical Satan because of what he did due to our increase in knowledge, but I would disagree with those people. But both Satan's goodness, badness, and incompetence would be included in the chart. Then we argue over how he can be any of the three and which possibility we prefer. If Eden was real, I believe Satan can't be good, because he set us off on this desire to become enlightened and truly free, which I think is a waste of time. I'd rather be a slave in a utopia without knowledge that I'm a slave than always be wanting more

Yes because if angels have no free will then how could an angel fall without getting direct orders from Big G?
Fedora-tier religion

maybe perspectives that collide? i just like the idea of this

In a sense I agree but I don't think this dichotomy of holy ignorance and evil knowledge is a legitimate conclusion.
Satan to me holds a problematic place in scripture the same was Judas does, in that I believe the fall like the crucifixion is part of a journey towards a more authentic relationship with God through the possibility of grace and salvation and yet the so obvious evil that was required for the events are so irreconcilable with anything Holy.
I can't simply accept the Edenic state as a fulfilled and dignified one. Our knowledge made us ashamed of how we were there because it was a shameful existence.

>good and bad. How would you judge that.
Maybe separate list of the outcomes.
Good.
>We started procreating
>knowledge
>A part of Gods plan
Bad
>Sin and death enter the World
>Pain of birth
>Knowledge of evil
>Fall from grace (same as original sin?)
>Eden being locked away

My personal problem with the story is how can God punish a being which has no knowledge of punishment, evil (manipulation from Satan) and wrong doing.

>50th time captcha is "calle calle"

>My personal problem with the story is how can God punish a being which has no knowledge of punishment, evil (manipulation from Satan) and wrong doing.

Because they're fucking degenerates

God despite being perfect made horribly imperfect creatures
>Satan which leads 2/3 angels in revolt
>Adam and Eve (and Lilith?)
>Cain literally the first human EVER to be born kills his younger brother

>inb4 free will
Romans 9:
10 Not only that, but Rebekah’s children were conceived at the same time by our father Isaac. 11 Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s purpose in election might stand: 12 not by works but by him who calls—she was told, “The older will serve the younger.”[d] 13 Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”[e]

14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15 For he says to Moses,

“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”[f]
16 It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. 17 For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.”[g] 18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

19 One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?” 20 But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’”[h] 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?

22 What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23 What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— 24 even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?

Suffering creates a certain energy necessary for the Universe. The cells in our bodies have to do many things -- work with many different substances and energies. Sometimes cells even have to deliberately die --- which is called apoptosis, programmed cell-death. If our souls are cells in a cosmic body (perhaps braincells), it'd make sense that we need to have experiences -- both pleasant and painful -- some of which we experience as "evil" and proof of the negligence/ill-will/non-existence of a Creator.

Usually flow charts have one main question. What would that be here?

I believe Satan is just negative ego personified. He gives you knowledge of yourself and good and evil, but knowing those things just makes you feel miserable and small. To become closer to God, selfless, whole, loved, ect you have to ignore Satan's whispering in your ear(self doubt, self pity, negativity in general). I feel metaphorically he's just a strawman to show you how not to live.

>free will
I am not smart enough to know what exactly free will is made from but it has to be some sort of particle (sub atomic, quantum, yet to be found). Following this God had the ability when creating the universe to change how these particles formed free will meaning he allowed not just Cain murdering Abel or Eve disobeying God but things like Unit 731, not being able to know Gods ways, not being able to comprehend infinity etc.

t. Pseud intellectual

Yes, it would be impossible for us to have free will if we were fully materialistic. God would probably be made of these mysterious particles that aren't in this universe, and we contain a few of these magic particles, but this would only be a tiny amount of free will, as we know the material word has its effects. Still, this is the best explanation for free will that I've seen, although it can't be proven atm.

The mind is many particles that form many screens that produces images from outer reality, and can produce images from inner reality, and make new images, and see multiple things at once: the time in the mind does not equal the time outside of the mind: outside the mind the particles are determined, inside the mind the mind has >0 ability to self determine certain aspects of its screen presentations, and can 'pause time', to observe all the possibilities of multiple choices, and freely choose between them.

You are welcome to add anything to the Additional Branching Paths.

Higher energies permeate the lower in increasingly smaller amounts. The point of most systems of mysticism, religion, esotericism, occultism or what have you is to accumulate more of these higher energies and crystallize them. Think of alchemy --- separating the fine from the coarse. This is also why the body and material world we live in is thought of as a prison, as something we have to resist the slavery of. Our bodies and the planet we live in is made of relatively coarse, dense matter, but it is all the time being permeated by higher influences. We, as people, contain all these higher influences in us -- this is why we say the microcosmos is the macrocosmos, that man reflects the world.

>. All these matters belonging to the
various orders of the universe are not separated into layers but are intermixed, or,
rather, they interpenetrate one another ... A piece of wood may be saturated with water,
water may in its turn be filled with gas. Exactly the same relation between different
kinds of matter may be observed in the whole of the universe: the finer matters
permeate the coarser ones.

>All the matter of the world that surrounds us, the food that we eat, the water that
we drink, the air that we breathe, the stones that our houses are built of, our own
bodies—everything is permeated by all the matters that exist in the universe. There is
no need to study or investigate the sun in order to discover the matter of the solar
world: this matter exists in ourselves and is the result of the division of our atoms. In
the same way we have in us the matter of all other worlds. Man is, in the full sense of
the term, a 'miniature universe'; in him are all the matters of which the universe
consists; the same forces, the same laws that govern the life of the universe, operate in
him; therefore in studying man we can study the whole world, just as in studying the
world we can study man.

>it would be impossible for us to have free will if we were fully materialistic.
Well I think it's more that due to the nature of these particles free will is an acceptable term since the possibilities are near endless.

>Yes, it would be impossible for us to have free will if we were fully materialistic

Don't mistake materialism as necessarily determinism, its very possible physics is actually inherently indeterministic

The absence of free will and indeterminism can both be possible.

Easy, if a man from the sky tells you to do it, its good to do

If he doesnt mention it then live in existential agony because you arent sure if youre going to hell

If he explicitly tells you not to do something and you do it anyway, get satan on the line and say Daddy im all yours

If you dont hear god speaking to you then neck yourself

Also if you live around the time of Noah and you're not from his seed you're going to die

If you and your wife have a son in Egypt while the Paraoh is being a dick (because God made him even more of a dick) hug him before he dies.

I don't know I thought this question was settled pretty cleanly by Job. . .

> Satan has power over us only through God
> Satan, however he was created, despite who he is, serves the purpose of testing God creations for whatever ends God sees fit
> Suffering is nonsensical but purposeful, only God knows the reasons for the suffering of men. However, we also learn that man is the source of his own suffering. Existence is suffering.
> The only thing man can do in the face of suffering is to try to find meaning in it, and if we look hard enough, there is Wisdom in suffering.
> God MAY bring a man down in order to raise him up higher than before, but as always God's actions are inscrutable by man.

See when I think about it now, the Serpent in the Garden wasn't wrong. When Adam and Eve ate from the Tree of Knowledge, we did become like God, knowing both good and evil. Our problem is that knowing good and evil means we know suffering, and because of this, we have the oppertunity to be like God! To choose good over evil, wisdom over ignorance. We have been given a light by God to help us find our way on to the narrow gate, but it is our choice as to where, when, and how.
God IS omniscient and omnipotent, and is the source of all things, good and evil. In the end God choose wisdom over darkness and goodness over evil, what can more can we do?

...

Everything that exists is just, rightful and necessary. Any belief to the contrary is just resentment of God's creation and as such heretical.

So yes, Lucifer did nothing 'wrong'. None of us can do anything that is 'wrong'. We can do good or evil, but this is all according to the will of God.

...

...

no, he decided to be disobedient

all these replies are so fucking retarded

I pray you all find God through love, cuz your theology is utter garbage

>there is Wisdom in suffering.
For who?

Yes, angels don't have free will