So Veeky Forums,
I've been getting more and more fascinated by the idea of being able to read the Chinese literature, the Chinese classics for instance. There's been recommendations flying around, praising Three Kingdoms, or Journey to the West, although I am sure it takes a number of years for one to gain fluency required to even consider those.
What are some good resources online that can help me learn pic related? Do we have any hacks for learning it other than the traditional brute-force memorisation? Retro books or podcasts? I gather some kind of programme for learning the most basic set of symbols/words could be a nice start and enable one to start reading basic texts.
Book recommendations with translations to read side-by-side are also appreciated.
So help me out anons.
So Veeky Forums
Other urls found in this thread:
pinyin.info
ctext.org
twitter.com
I know it will be hard to believe, but I actually learned Chinese. I lived in country for many years and got to a level of proficiency where I could read Lu Xun, A Cheng, and other contemporary writers fairly easily. I didn't really try to tackle the classics, though I did listen to a nearly 200 hour long radio dramatization of Bandits of the Marsh. My advice: don't fucking bother. You won't acquire the fluency necessary to read the big four (or, whats even better, Tang poetry) without spending years in China and China is absolutely fucking stupid. And even if you do manage fluency necessary to read that stuff, it will always be a tremendous struggle. I met maybe two or three foreigners with better Chinese than mine, and even they never read that old shit. It's just too hard and too removed from anything that's happening in contemporary China (think no one in the West reads Shakespeare? No one in China reads at all)
This article has some errors and cites some problems that don't really matter (dictionaries are easy now; romanization has mostly standardized to pinyin; etc), but it's mostly accurate: pinyin.info
If you absolutely insist, here are some tips:
1) Drill tones right out the gate. Don't fuck around with this, and definitely don't listen to idiots who say it doesn't matter. Master that shit early or it will be a struggle forever. Also, drill tones in context - practice along with tapes (Chinesepod or whatever)
2) Don't blindly memorize characters (and especially Chengyu) with anki or any other means. Always learn words, phrases, etc. in context. Foreigners usually speak wonky ass Chinese because they try to translate, and it just doesn't work.
3) After two or so years of study, switch to a Chinese-Chinese dictionary. All Chinese-English dictionaries suck because countless nuances don't translate.
Most important: language immersion. Go to China. Don't go as a teacher. Enroll in a language program (every major university has one) and force yourself to a language pledge. Speak and encounter as little English as possible. Don't bother about school reputation - doing so will only land you at Beida or some other school filled with Americans and Europeans who just want to party and pretend they speak Chinese. Better to go to a shittier school. It doesn't matter anyway since a) no one in the west gives a fuck about credentials attained in China and b) Chinese pedagogy is fucking stupid everywhere
But seriously, spare yourself. Contemporary Chinese literature is good, but mostly of provincial interest and classical Chinese literature is beyond the pale of reasonable effort
you may be interested in
I read the article you linked, and I guess that's a red pill for me right there; a very sober examination, it makes me question my position. I'm pretty much at that stage of the allure of the written Chinese that the author describes. Mind unwrapping the >"China is absolutely fucking stupid" a bit? One of the main reasons for learning that fucking language is to go there one day and talk to them natives, and that line shatters this whole remaining rationale.
Thanks user, noted the translations. >2600 pages
I'll preface this whole tirade with this: I can't speak for Europe, but I find America mostly indefensible. We're a land of mindless, gluttonous idiots. So this whole thing should not be read as "West is best," but more like "better the devil that you know."
Contemporary Chinese culture is the most vapid, empty materialism I have ever seen anywhere. I was in a language program with students from literally all over the world and everyone, Central Asians, Japanese, Africans, Euros and Americans agreed that China was soulless and monomanically money-focused. The only people I met who claimed otherwise were self-important Americans and Europeans enrolled in graduate programs or who pretended they had jobs other than just teaching English ("Oh, no, I teach *economics*") Exceptions exist, but for the most part China is totally devoid of anything that might sustain your cultural interest. Films are usually a Chinese knock-offs of Hollywood drivel; music is sugary Carpenter/Aguillera knock-offs; fiction is desperately groping for whatever the West thinks is cool. Outside of Shanghai, Beijing and a few other places with an overwhelming foreign presence, local "scenes" are non-existent. It's nearly impossibly hard to meet anyone worth talking to.
The word "nearly" is critical qualification. I met some pretty fun Chinese people - including a few aspiring film-makers (though they were, like American "aspiring artists" delusionally "avant-garde") - and I had a ton of wild experiences. But for the most part it was a soulless, miserable place. I lived in a city of 8 million people and it had virtually no live music, no independent art, no intellectual community. Just pure H&M/Starbucks bullshit.
Notice on Veeky Forums the constant complaining about how hard it is to find anyone interesting in America or Europe? If that's true in your home country, imagine trying to find that in a foreign country where you don't really speak the language, can't enter into the work-force except as an English teacher (or as essentially a model - many Chinese companies will hire foreigners solely to have a foreign face), where the university system is mostly full of dumb-shits playing dota and sleeping in the library, AND, most importantly, you lack the cultural background to participate. If you find constant Harry Potter and Stranger Things references alienating, imagine constant references to Chinese knock-offs of those that you've never even heard of. Smart, fun, engaging Chinese people exist, but they're extremely hard to find and, because of a cultural fixation on Chinese inferiority, they usually learn English and end up emigrating.
What is an "interesting" person to you and if you have found any, how?
Asians are subhuman hive minded idiots who produce nothing of value except cheap knockoffs of things that caucasians produce.
Why even bother.
>(think no one in the West reads Shakespeare? No one in China reads at all)
This is just weirdly wrong, considering you clearly do know stuff about China. Plenty of people obviously read the classic novels- or do you think there are so many editions on sale in bookshops for a laugh? Kids read those books.
This is way exaggerated, in the same vein as 'no one reads'. Not that it's entirely untrue, of course (yes, China is massively money-focused). But there are plenty of artists, musicians etc in every Chinese city. You just need to find them, if you want to.
>Notice on Veeky Forums the constant complaining about how hard it is to find anyone interesting in America or Europe?
Yes, and that stuff's stupid. It's not evidence that people are all uninteresting (except of course for the endlessly fascinating people who spend large amounts of their time posting on an internet forum), it's just evidence that it's difficult to get to know people in general, especially if you're bad at talking to people or don't get many opportunities to meet them (like, for example, people who spend large amounts of time posting on an internet forum).
The Chinesepod podcasts are pretty good but deeply unsystematic IIRC. You probably want to do them alongside a more structured course.
is pretty right about the learning, although I would say flashcards can be a good memorising tool as long as you use them only in short bursts and don't make them the whole focus of what you do.
I don't agree at all about user's view of China, but then it sounds like I have a much more positive view of people and the world in general than user, so I guess your measure may vary.
...oh, and
>a number of years
is right. A big number, spent doing serious, dedicated study. I'd guess that after four years of diligent full-time study you -might- be in a position to attempt the classic novels, but not without some major annotations and/or dictionary use.
It really has to be something you love for its own sake. Personally I find the written language fascinating although the tones are a pain.