So Veeky Forums

So Veeky Forums,
I've been getting more and more fascinated by the idea of being able to read the Chinese literature, the Chinese classics for instance. There's been recommendations flying around, praising Three Kingdoms, or Journey to the West, although I am sure it takes a number of years for one to gain fluency required to even consider those.
What are some good resources online that can help me learn pic related? Do we have any hacks for learning it other than the traditional brute-force memorisation? Retro books or podcasts? I gather some kind of programme for learning the most basic set of symbols/words could be a nice start and enable one to start reading basic texts.
Book recommendations with translations to read side-by-side are also appreciated.
So help me out anons.

Other urls found in this thread:

pinyin.info/readings/texts/moser.html
ctext.org/sanguo-yanyi/ch1
twitter.com/NSFWRedditImage

I know it will be hard to believe, but I actually learned Chinese. I lived in country for many years and got to a level of proficiency where I could read Lu Xun, A Cheng, and other contemporary writers fairly easily. I didn't really try to tackle the classics, though I did listen to a nearly 200 hour long radio dramatization of Bandits of the Marsh. My advice: don't fucking bother. You won't acquire the fluency necessary to read the big four (or, whats even better, Tang poetry) without spending years in China and China is absolutely fucking stupid. And even if you do manage fluency necessary to read that stuff, it will always be a tremendous struggle. I met maybe two or three foreigners with better Chinese than mine, and even they never read that old shit. It's just too hard and too removed from anything that's happening in contemporary China (think no one in the West reads Shakespeare? No one in China reads at all)

This article has some errors and cites some problems that don't really matter (dictionaries are easy now; romanization has mostly standardized to pinyin; etc), but it's mostly accurate: pinyin.info/readings/texts/moser.html

If you absolutely insist, here are some tips:
1) Drill tones right out the gate. Don't fuck around with this, and definitely don't listen to idiots who say it doesn't matter. Master that shit early or it will be a struggle forever. Also, drill tones in context - practice along with tapes (Chinesepod or whatever)
2) Don't blindly memorize characters (and especially Chengyu) with anki or any other means. Always learn words, phrases, etc. in context. Foreigners usually speak wonky ass Chinese because they try to translate, and it just doesn't work.
3) After two or so years of study, switch to a Chinese-Chinese dictionary. All Chinese-English dictionaries suck because countless nuances don't translate.

Most important: language immersion. Go to China. Don't go as a teacher. Enroll in a language program (every major university has one) and force yourself to a language pledge. Speak and encounter as little English as possible. Don't bother about school reputation - doing so will only land you at Beida or some other school filled with Americans and Europeans who just want to party and pretend they speak Chinese. Better to go to a shittier school. It doesn't matter anyway since a) no one in the west gives a fuck about credentials attained in China and b) Chinese pedagogy is fucking stupid everywhere

But seriously, spare yourself. Contemporary Chinese literature is good, but mostly of provincial interest and classical Chinese literature is beyond the pale of reasonable effort

you may be interested in

I read the article you linked, and I guess that's a red pill for me right there; a very sober examination, it makes me question my position. I'm pretty much at that stage of the allure of the written Chinese that the author describes. Mind unwrapping the >"China is absolutely fucking stupid" a bit? One of the main reasons for learning that fucking language is to go there one day and talk to them natives, and that line shatters this whole remaining rationale.
Thanks user, noted the translations. >2600 pages

I'll preface this whole tirade with this: I can't speak for Europe, but I find America mostly indefensible. We're a land of mindless, gluttonous idiots. So this whole thing should not be read as "West is best," but more like "better the devil that you know."

Contemporary Chinese culture is the most vapid, empty materialism I have ever seen anywhere. I was in a language program with students from literally all over the world and everyone, Central Asians, Japanese, Africans, Euros and Americans agreed that China was soulless and monomanically money-focused. The only people I met who claimed otherwise were self-important Americans and Europeans enrolled in graduate programs or who pretended they had jobs other than just teaching English ("Oh, no, I teach *economics*") Exceptions exist, but for the most part China is totally devoid of anything that might sustain your cultural interest. Films are usually a Chinese knock-offs of Hollywood drivel; music is sugary Carpenter/Aguillera knock-offs; fiction is desperately groping for whatever the West thinks is cool. Outside of Shanghai, Beijing and a few other places with an overwhelming foreign presence, local "scenes" are non-existent. It's nearly impossibly hard to meet anyone worth talking to.

The word "nearly" is critical qualification. I met some pretty fun Chinese people - including a few aspiring film-makers (though they were, like American "aspiring artists" delusionally "avant-garde") - and I had a ton of wild experiences. But for the most part it was a soulless, miserable place. I lived in a city of 8 million people and it had virtually no live music, no independent art, no intellectual community. Just pure H&M/Starbucks bullshit.

Notice on Veeky Forums the constant complaining about how hard it is to find anyone interesting in America or Europe? If that's true in your home country, imagine trying to find that in a foreign country where you don't really speak the language, can't enter into the work-force except as an English teacher (or as essentially a model - many Chinese companies will hire foreigners solely to have a foreign face), where the university system is mostly full of dumb-shits playing dota and sleeping in the library, AND, most importantly, you lack the cultural background to participate. If you find constant Harry Potter and Stranger Things references alienating, imagine constant references to Chinese knock-offs of those that you've never even heard of. Smart, fun, engaging Chinese people exist, but they're extremely hard to find and, because of a cultural fixation on Chinese inferiority, they usually learn English and end up emigrating.

What is an "interesting" person to you and if you have found any, how?

Asians are subhuman hive minded idiots who produce nothing of value except cheap knockoffs of things that caucasians produce.
Why even bother.

>(think no one in the West reads Shakespeare? No one in China reads at all)
This is just weirdly wrong, considering you clearly do know stuff about China. Plenty of people obviously read the classic novels- or do you think there are so many editions on sale in bookshops for a laugh? Kids read those books.

This is way exaggerated, in the same vein as 'no one reads'. Not that it's entirely untrue, of course (yes, China is massively money-focused). But there are plenty of artists, musicians etc in every Chinese city. You just need to find them, if you want to.

>Notice on Veeky Forums the constant complaining about how hard it is to find anyone interesting in America or Europe?
Yes, and that stuff's stupid. It's not evidence that people are all uninteresting (except of course for the endlessly fascinating people who spend large amounts of their time posting on an internet forum), it's just evidence that it's difficult to get to know people in general, especially if you're bad at talking to people or don't get many opportunities to meet them (like, for example, people who spend large amounts of time posting on an internet forum).

The Chinesepod podcasts are pretty good but deeply unsystematic IIRC. You probably want to do them alongside a more structured course.

is pretty right about the learning, although I would say flashcards can be a good memorising tool as long as you use them only in short bursts and don't make them the whole focus of what you do.

I don't agree at all about user's view of China, but then it sounds like I have a much more positive view of people and the world in general than user, so I guess your measure may vary.

...oh, and
>a number of years
is right. A big number, spent doing serious, dedicated study. I'd guess that after four years of diligent full-time study you -might- be in a position to attempt the classic novels, but not without some major annotations and/or dictionary use.

It really has to be something you love for its own sake. Personally I find the written language fascinating although the tones are a pain.

Are you an iCuck?

Because Samsung Galaxy series is THE business phone of both the West and East.

? ? ? ?
Didn't you just prove my point?

I was referring to literature, visual art, music, ideas etc... There is a reason they import all culture & media from the west in asia/south america/africa, and the reason is that they are incapable of making anything good.

I mean just look at any example - sculpture for one, take in everything the west has done from the greeks to modern 3d modeling, is there really any comparison to anything any other culture or race has done? The west is on another planet intellectually, the best the brown people can do is steal or imitate our stuff.

And that is why I feel strongly there is no reason at all to study their thoughts or artwork.

Even things they did before us like exploring the consciousness - we took buddhism and toaism and brought the ideas further and more widespread in the past 60 years than they did in 10,000 years. PKD saw a computer and had a fully formed philosophy about an artificial computer simulation reality about a week later.

多学一些 然后读读三体吧 还有英文版对照

Oh yeah, kids read them for sure. Kids are pretty avid readers. But it all seems to hit the wall when college starts. Their parents make their kids read, but the phone is a forbidden fruit whose allure is irresistible as soon as they grow up. Also, notice the way those books are marketed - self-help. Almost all of the adults I meet in China read nothing and just play cell-phone games. Compare a Chinese subway to a western subway.

You can find them, definitely, but it's hard to talk to them. Vastly different cultural wells to draw on, plus both sides engage in weird fetishization. Notice Veeky Forumss fixation on the classic four, which are definitely huge in China, but not really cultural mainstays. Chinese folks will also ask you all sorts of eventually annoying questions about whatever tidbits they've gotten about the west. Neither side can see clearly, so conversation always stilts.

Definitely true, but my argument is, don't waste years trying to learn Chinese to talk to people who really aren't any more interesting than the people immediately around you. If you have an abiding passion, then go for it, but likely you'll just end up giving up having wasted a lot of time.

Interesting people in China - I was in a feature length art-house film and I met a number of pretty well recognized poets who were fun, but often said insane shit like "I can't read books like Anna Karenina because I know I could write a better one." Which, maybe a good attitude for a poet, but... woof....

instead of talking about it just do it

ctext.org/sanguo-yanyi/ch1

It has every passage in English and Chinese. Use a browser extension to decipher characters by hovering the mouse over it.

"not cultural mainstays" is an ill-used phrase. I mean, they're not talked about in the way Veeky Forums seems to want to talk about them... Man characters are frequently referenced in much the way Ahab or the Scarlet Letter are referenced as archetypes, but "muh prose" tends to focus more on Tang poetry, which get quoted a lot.

Oh yeah, the cultural distance is real. I suppose it's a catch-22 thing where the artists who a western visitor might find most interesting, because they're 'different', are also the hardest to talk to because they're... well, different. And not necessarily very interested in other countries because they're doing their own thing. Whereas people who do make the effort to communicate with foreign people are more likely to want something (mainly English practice), which doesn't lend itself to fascinating conversations.
>I can't read books like Anna Karenina because I know I could write a better one
Damn. That really is exactly the kind of thing I'd want to hear from a poet, but yeah, maybe not often.

Although you have got to wonder how good the Chinese translations of Tolstoy are. I remember hearing that early twentieth century ones were good, but over time translators were paid crazy low amounts per word so more recent translations tend to be awful rush-jobs.

>Almost all of the adults I meet in China read nothing and just play cell-phone games. Compare a Chinese subway to a western subway.

Have you ever actually ridden a western subway?

What did you do after leaving China? Did you go somewhere else in East Asia, or back to the US (if that is where you are from)? I've been seriously considering studying Mandarin in Taiwan for a year or so now and am curious.

Not that user, but I'm back in Britbongland with a Chinese wife (yes, I am a walking cliche). Also I think Taiwan is awesome, although that might be partly the contrast with the PRC- Taiwan felt so much less hard-edged (less of an 'adventure', to put it negatively) which is natural I guess since the people are much richer. Beautiful place with great weather too.

Most Chinese translations of it are mostly terrible. Many are based on Constance Garnet, actually. Same with a lot of Western classical literature - as far as I know, there are no Chinese translations of Aristotle based on Greek. Part of the reason Chinese academia is so shitty on stuff like this is because there's no culture of translation the way there is in the west, and little belief in "textual fidelity." Veeky Forums-esque beliefs in "the inherent superiority of the Chinese language" are prevalent and it's assumed that anything will render not only naturally, but better into Chinese. The translations of major texts I've read are often full of major errors - like misreading double negation so a sentence actually reads the opposite.

Currently, I'm not doing much of anything (hence posting here). I haven't been back for very long. Speaking Mandarin doesn't help you much in the U.S. if you aren't qualified to do something else as well.

Cool. I visited TW for 2 weeks or so earlier in spring of 2017 and was really quite impressed with it. I never really considered even visiting mainland until I met some people in my hostel in Hualien who were studying the language in mainland and seeming to enjoy it. However, I do not really have any interest in living in mainland China as it is now, I like instead the nicer and slower life you have in Taiwan, where even Taipei is surprisingly laid back.

Not really sure why I want to learn Mandarin, I suppose it would be to facilitate living in Taiwan long term since cost of living there is quite cheaper than the west coast city I live in. I've been reading translations of like Yu Hua and they have been enjoyable so far, but my primarily love is for Chinese-language cinema. Hell, I only really ever wanted to visit Taiwan because of Edward Yang.

Any idea on what you will do next? It seems like knowing a second language nowadays (in terms of possible jobs/careers) is pretty much useless unless you are doing translation work, unfortunately.

>for example, people who spend large amounts of time posting on an internet forum
yea, i've traveled europe and the US and every trip i meet very deep people that have something interesting to say. first, you have to be alone. people don't want to talk to you and your friends group, it's intimidating even for the most outgoing people. don't talk to attractive or young people. i mean, hobos aren't the most interesting people but a middle aged man or woman whose minding their own business is the mostly likely candidate for someone who is interesting.

sounds like you're a pseud and dont have access to where the real art and culture happen in china
they probably just rightfully assume you're a yellow fever stricken 20 yo mediocrity

Chink defense force out in great numbers, let the whole world know how debased Han hive culture is user you’re doing god’s work

>Edward Yang
Oh hell yes. PRC has produced some very good films too (another thing misses- yes, mass market films tend to be crap, like everywhere, but there's plenty of good lower-budget stuff) but to my mind Edward Yang is still the king.

Mind you, I think Yang has a lot to say about what user calls 'vapid, empty materialism', and there's no denying there's a lot of that in both Taiwan and the PRC.