Novella/Short Story Reading Group - Ficciones

I really did not like reading this first story at all.
The idea behind the whole thing is kinda cool, but it was just boring as hell to read, especially part 2 where Borges essentially lists extravagant Tlön extensions of various philosophies. I had to stand up at one point because I was getting tired.
It felt like something Borges would've come up with quickly, that lacks a coherent philosophy behind the Tlön world of livig incoherent philosophy.
I want to say it would be better if it were shorter, not that it is very long, but that would be at the cost of depth. Then again, there is really no valuable depth to speak of, just a lot of ideas.
Maybe I'm just a brainlet who can't understand the philosophizing, but I feel like I understood, I just don't appreciate it.
Maybe on a reread the ideas would come together to create a more satisfying read, but I doubt I'll ever reread it.

Also on the docket for today is selections for books 2 and 3. The Trial got most mentions in the last thread so that’s 2. Conteders for 3 are as follows:
-Lost in the Funhouse
-Something by Calvino
-The Passion According to G.H.
First reply to this post decides book 3 from these options.

I feel like less of a brainlet now

I've never read anything by Calvino, so that would be cool. Anyone down to read some short stories by Mishima?

I started The Trial. Fuck you all

I'm currently about halfway through the trial and labyrinths(another borges short story collection)

>el próxima
>lees
>cayate
>
>Díos

I have to agree.

It's the kind of story that puts forward some interesting ideas, but the prose and overall narrative is boring. The moment it mentioned mirrors and Gnosticism, I could predict exactly where it was going.

I thought the concept to be interesting enough to tide me over while reading. Really enjoyed trying to imagine what that world would be like. I agree about the lacking narrative though.

>narrative
its an essay.

Essays can still be engaging.

>I had to stand up at one point
“stretched his legs”

Calvino it is. Pic related was suggested. We can do Mishima in the next three.

The first time I read Tlon it fucked me me up in a good way. What did you guys think about the 'alien' radical way they construe meaning?

It's a shit

See you on the 19th

>It's an essay
Wrong.

I've read this in the past, the only story I didn't find interesting was "Pierre Menard, Author of the Quixote". So, he transcribed Don Quixote line by line, therefore he's the author? Thoughts on this story?

I swear reading it on Spanish feels so much better than reading it on English, it's magical and interesting. His use of the Spanish language feels so academic, refined, even somewhat corny, but the situations feel so normal when he uses them, which I find very interesting.

A pity you can't read him on his native language, even if he was an Anglo-phile and all that, his Spanish writing was way above his English.

this.

>el espejo inquietaba fondo de un corredor
based
>the mirror bothered the corridor
HURRRr

There're different English translations. The ones you find online for free are probably the worst.

there are things that are hard to translate, for example try giving me a good translation of that.

WTF is this, 30 replies, 3 by me, 2 on topic and it's almost time for next short story?

This short time between stories encourages piracy.

>morality
>Veeky Forums
someone help this man find his way back to /r/eddit

>for example try giving me a good translation of that.
theres none, thats my point

This is a christian board what are you talking about?

>>
and heres why: because reading Borges is a purely aesthetic activity, theres no importance to the plot, no importance to the concepts exposed. its not an educational read, because half the sources are made up. theres no moral to the stories either. Borges in spanish (as user pointed before) has this very specific feel of adventure, but through metaphysical themes, so its a very unique mixture that relies on each carefully selected word to keep that engaging magic. ive read lots of translations, none can cut it.

about the "inquietaba" word, inquietud means to be bothered, also to be not still. Borges meant that the mirror was a space that generated movement in that corner or whatever, a nervous movement shold i add, which involves the viewer of such scene, because the movement is relative to the movement of said viewer. its a kinetic and also subjective element, not about any psychological "bothering".

I think much of these problems are due to the complexity of the first story. Its translation starts off with an interesting premise but admittedly begins to feel like cheap sci-fi half way through. I think some of his creativity does manage to survive into the English but not enough to make it a fulfilling read.
However I do not believe this is true of Al-Mu'tasim, nor for other stories contained in this collection. The plot of Al-Mu'tasim is more simple and I'd argue that much of its significance is maintained, though I haven't read this one in the original Spanish. To say Uqbar is not educational because half the sources are made up is to ignore the direct citations of the other half that are.
And sure. Things get lost in translation. Dante's poetry is better in the old pseudo-Italian dialect that he wrote it in. But this was the book we agreed to read first, and all this "why fucking bother" stuff should have been more clearly argued before we confirmed this as our first reading. I personally don't find it much of a problem as I like the raw ideas of Borges, fragmented as they may be. This also gives other people here (monomongs) some preliminary exposure to him.
If you guys are really not into finishing this thing then I'm happy to come up with a new schedule for the Trial, or something else.

Nobody liked the story, so nobody cares to talk about it.

Do we switch or keep going?

Because lit us filled with brainlets

My copy of ficciones doesn't have the approach to al mutasim, neither does my copy of borges complete stories. I will join you fellas for pierre manrd autor del quijote

I once recorded myself repeating "Tlön, Uqbar, Orbis Tertius" over and over with my faggy voice as if I could come up with the right pronunciation (if there's any). I wouldn't post it.

Keep going unless we all hate the next 2 stories.

I see several posts about Borges everyday on catalog, and now a dead reading group discussion.
Fuck you, retards.
My edition also doesn't have that story so I'll have my day off. I hope that story isn't discussed more than the current one.

>It's an essay.
>The book is literally called 'Fictions'

All of borges writings are essays thinly disguised as fiction

Pierre Menard is fucking genius and I think about it all the time. I referenced it in an American Psycho copypasta once

>the mirror disturbed the end of the corridor

Am I the only one who actually enjoyed the story? It's my second time reading it, and I feel like I got a lot more out of it this time.

This user is right about sophism . Not sure why people here think the world is based on Sophism, when the text says directly it's based on Berkeley-esque idealism. In fact, one of the main purposes of the story seems to be to take idealism to its extreme.

Interesting to note that the "verb-based" language in the story is similar to many Native American languages: native-languages.org/definitions/verb-based.htm

>not knowing a pseudo fiction essay from actual fiction
>not enjoying Tlön
>reading Borges at face value when he was a known trickster and postmodern writing incarnated
>not getting SHIT about Borges
holy shit guys im afraid. is this really the literature forum?

Some of you may want to take a look at these:
iep.utm.edu/berkeley/#H4
researchgate.net/publication/320833239_Borges_and_the_Subjective-Idealism_in_Relativity_Theory_and_Quantum_Mechanics

There's other secondary lit out there that talks about this particular story but this will be available to everyone and may help put his writing in context

Yeah, my hope is that people are just new to it :/
I'm no expert but I love Borges. I always feel like there's a million things I want to learn more about after reading any of his stories.

what bothers me most is that the guys are like, yeah i read it, it was sort of boring, next please!

that narration is fucking amazing, theres lots to be talked about, hours of endless speculation on the possibilities that gives understanding the world like that, or a world that works like that, about the psychological nature of language and so on, but there wasnt any discussion whatsoever, just some "what is sophism?" question which i sincerely found bone chilling.

i think Borges doesnt need that much extra knowledge, but certainly an innate interest on the metaphysical, and also having fucking paid attention in school, how in hell you dont know what sophists are, jesus christ.

This mean understands Borges.

Here's another article, "Idealism and Dystopia in Tlön, Uqbar, Orbis Tertius" by John R. Clark from The International Fiction Review. Sorry there's not a cleaner link. It's a direct link to download the PDF

google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=3&ved=0ahUKEwiy4a6g2IbZAhUs1oMKHWSqANQQFgg6MAI&url=https://journals.lib.unb.ca/index.php/IFR/article/download/14368/15445&usg=AOvVaw0zNpGdQUfikPv8XXsCiwD_

Thanks!
mandatory translation acknowledgement
I’m finding the overlaps/layers of his stories really interesting. The golden book the protag finds parallels the encyclopedia in some interesting ways. I assume this is one of the defining characteristics of Borges, how every idea/motif/device functions with others on multiple levels in a very compact and complete way, despite the fact that I’m reading in translation. It’s actually p comfy. The next story exemplifies this well, and Borges is even so kind as to make these parallels explicit in his writing. I’ll be reading that one in translation, too.

Yeah, the general lack of curiosity or desire to try to probe deeper into the text was pretty disheartening. Even if people don't already have the answers, it's still possible to come up with interesting questions. Or to have a deeper reaction than just "I didn't like it, seemed like cheap sci-fi." I was hoping that some people here would have greater familiarity with other texts/authors that are referenced, so we'd be able to use each other as a resource to fill in our personal gaps in knowledge. But I'd be happy to just get a genuine discussion that goes beyond clarifying questions.

I'll try to post earlier tomorrow. Maybe if I can find some decent decent criticism to post it will help clarify things for people and spark some better discussion.

translation is a whole issue with Borges. he does this mix of academic and poetic language, for instance i have never found a proper translation of this passage:

"El agua de la selva es feliz; podemos ser malvados y dolorosos."

that one is from three versions of judas, which is pretty fucking kino.

just to pick one word, "dolorosos" means primarily capable of hurting, hurtful if you will, but also the potential of suffering, it all encompasses both the notion of making suffering to others and being subjected to suffering, being able of it in both ways. Borges has this compassive way of writing, this mercyful way with the blind and lost human race, only comfyness comes from that.

>golden book
Just to clarify, you mean Herbert Ashe's book, right? Or are you referring to another story? In my translation it's yellow.
Yeah I'm reading a book by Italo Calvino right now too and both he and Borges are really focused on "layers of reality" within their fiction (maybe even in the real world). What one needs to create a reality, and how different levels can merge with each other.
On a related note, does anyone have info about Borges' religious views? If Tlon is "a labyrinth contrived by men, a labyrinth designed to be deciphered by men," and the real world is ordered in accordance with "divine laws," is God just one layer of reality farther up?

I wish I hadn't let my Spanish go to shit, a few years ago I would have been able to read it untranslated :(
For anyone in the same boat as I am (i.e. knows some Spanish but not enough to take this on), try getting a Spanish language copy from your library (or online) and reading them side by side. That's what I'm doing and it's nice to be able to read the content in English first, and then read what I can in Spanish to get a more authentic sense of his style.

Sure, there is a lot to talk about with Tlön, and that's the problem.
It was like watching a really good boxing match, where both boxers are so good that nobody lands any punches. Lots of skill on display, with nothing of value sticking out.
I could delve deeper into anything in the story, but I just can't be bothered to.
>that narration is fucking amazing
Nah
I already read the next story, it's better.

>I could delve deeper into anything in the story, but I just can't be bothered to
Is everyone on this board 15?

Most of the posts in this thread made me embarrassed to even be on Veeky Forums, desu

>complains about the lack of quality discussion
>doesn't even try to offer quality discussion

wow

Not the only post I've made in this thread, user

I'm saying that the posts since the complaining started have all been very surface level.

Not that user, and yeah the later posts haven't been super deep, but for me at least I was honestly surprised that there was basically no discussion of any depth going on when I jumped into the thread. Writing some sort of deep analysis/reaction of my own would have felt like shouting into a void, so I thought I'd provide some links in the hope that they would help orient people a little more. Plus I'm not sure I'm really capable of providing truly insightful analysis, I'm just a beginner myself. I had plenty of questions, at least. But people on this board complaining about how the story was hard to get into and saying that it's like cheap sci fi is just kinda sad.

Well I think everyone will have more to say tomorrow, since then next story is short, and way easier to get to the heart of.

I hope so! People also may just be adjusting to the writing style, too.

Props for linking to IEP, because it's probably one of the best resources for philosophy online (only really overshadowed by the Stanford Encyclopedia which isn't really suitable for non-academics).

BUT, that researchgate article is one of the most amateurish things I've ever read. I've seen first year undergraduates with better prose style than that.

oh boy, I just found this thread, hope it stays alive until I can read the first story later today

i thought it was if on a winters night a traveler

Isn't 18 days for a book this short a bit too much?
Anyway, I'll be joining you guys tomorrow.

no let’s finish this

We're taking it slow the first round, this group is meant to be fun and fairly low stress.
Has anyone read the The Approach to Al-Mu'tasim yet? Should we make a new thread for each story or continue working with this one?
I appreciate Borges' laying out an epic for us in 7-8 pages. For those who have read Ulysses: When he talks about the surface level comparisons to it, is he referring to anything specifically? What are your thoughts around the theological theme? Have you ever found yourself in this position, seeking someone important to you with only intimations and a hunch to follow? Do you believe it makes sense for Al-Mu'tasim to function as a symbol of a single deity that unifies disparate religions, even those containing multiple deities? If Al-Mu'tasim is in fact the Hindu that he tried to kill, what are the implications? The protagonist does a fair amount of harm to society/others before beginning his approach; does his quest redeem him at all, or is he still mostly the same person when he approaches the doorway?
That's all I have time for now but I'll be back later today.

>Should we make a new thread for each story or continue working with this one?
I'd say continue until it hits bump limit. I'd also appreciate if this would become a permantent short story/novella general like /sffg/.

I'm the one who asked the question. Sorry for asking... Sorry that I tried to improve. I should note that the people in my surroundings (both the ones I choose and the ones that are just around me without my will) know 90% less than me, especially in this field, so there's some explanation for you.
PS: I wouldn't dare to ask if there was a more intricate discussion going on, so fuck you.

*a permanent short story/novella reading group general

I'd make a new thread to cater to the attention span shown in this one.

That's what I was thinking, a fresh start, but I doubt a new thread will really change much. Let this one stand as evidence of our potential for literary growth. Any thoughts on the shitty questions I posed?

Okay, let's do that one then.

Not him, but afaik most editions excluded Al-Mu'tasim (mine did), so maybe we don't have many anons today to discuss this story.

Also voting for this.

r/iamverysmart

I haven't managed to read the stories as I have been travelling in the past 2 days, but hopefully I'll catch up tomorrow.

unless you guys are reading in Spanish you could always refer to OP, it's included in the PDF link

>tfw reading in German

>tfw reading in macedonian

nice!

FWIW, I'm one of the people who responded to you and I don't think you should be ashamed of asking. We've all got to start somewhere. You may get a lot more out of this book if you reread it after having read up a bit on philosophy, though. I'd rather have people asking relevant questions than just complaining about the text.

I think this is another story that touches on pantheism/"a world of mind." He also seems to be interested in questioning the limits of symbolism and literary flourishes - at least that's how I read the reference to Ulysses (which I haven't read). In reality, Borges definitely thought Joyce's works had merit, even though he did have a complicated relationship with his work (I don't know that much about this, just what I picked up from quickly googling it). I will try to come back later with more thoughts, still trying to let it sink in.

Here's a link to an article about Plotinus, who he references in the text: iep.utm.edu/plotinus/
And a wiki article on the poem the fictional novel was based on: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Conference_of_the_Birds

I liked Al-Mu'tasim a lot more than Tlön.
It was much more focused and well presented, which means it came across coherently, and not like a completely made up story serving as the vessel for some philosophical chicken dance, the way Tlön did.
The narrator wishes that the novel he has represented Al-Mu'tasim as an actual person instead of a symbol, this is the same thing the main character of the novel wants, to find a human who embodies the goodness (godliness) he seeks.
As the main character goes on his journey he meets good people who "know" Al-Mu'tasim.
The birds of the poem talked about at the end find that they are what they are searching for. It is the same way in the novel. Al-Mutasim (even if he "exists" as the man at the end, and is the Hindu forgiving the protagonist, it doesn't really matter, because he wouldn't be what is being looked for.) cannot be one person, but is all of the good people, including the protagonist. The narrator wants just one person to be Al-Ma'tasim because he wants to understand God, or at least see that the goodness of godliness can manifest itself, missing the fact that it already has.

I think the mentioning of Joyce and Homer is to reflect on the idea that one should not simply construe parallels based on the fact that these stories are epics but to focus more on the happenings within these travels. From my brief understanding of the Ulysses that's the subtle connection he is trying to make. This ties into what user said about pantheism in which reality is divinity:
Would anyone that followed that belief be able to forgive themselves for whatever crime they committed? Wouldn't that person be god themselves? Isn't the person closest to god in this story actually a book seller? Even after a saint? Wouldn't the writer be advocating that knowledge holds more importance than holiness?

>www[DOT]libraryofbabel[DOT]info/borges/thegardenofbranchingpaths[DOT]pdf

why would you do that to the url?

What if Al-Mu’tasim is just a stand-in for the good in the protagonist himself? His rise from depravity and his search for goodness are as internal as they are external; perhaps there IS no Al-Mu’tasim, and the people he comes across just become friendlier as he gets closer to the person that he wants to be? It makes me think of TCOL 49, where the Trystero is just a hunch and their existence is secondary to the growth that Oedipa, the main character of the story, experiences. This idea fits in with the bird poem and if I remeber correctly it is the only idea not explicitly discussed. “We are what we are looking for”.

Because some links are blocked on Veeky Forums and because I was too dumb to test it on another board before posting.

This makes a lot more sense and somewhat fits with one of the more overall philosophical ideals that Borges seems to be touching upon based on the last two short stories. Borges admits to being heavily influenced by Schopenhauer and seems to be drawing a lot of expression from "The World as Will".

plato.stanford.edu/entries/schopenhauer/#4

These themes are somewhat present in Tlon as well.

Thanks for linking these articles, I’ll set aside time for them if I can.
Tomorrow (today) is the weekend, here’s hoping for more valuable responses and insight into our next story, Piere Menard.

BUMP

So what did you all think of Pierre Menard?

I enjoyed this absurdist "exercises in futility" theme. How does it refelect Borges own stance on literary criticism? Was he mocking over-interpretation of literary works, or did he (or only the fictional first person narrator) just acknowledge that "truth" is merely "created" by interpretation?